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(The Lancet)   Those crazy people who are afraid of fluoride might have been right all along   (thelancet.com) divider line 41
    More: Scary, fluorides, developmental toxicity, systematic review, cognitive impairment, chemical industries  
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13266 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Mar 2014 at 1:40 PM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2014-03-07 01:50:39 PM
7 votes:
Fluoride's danger as a neurotoxin is not in question. The dosage at which it has harmful effects is. That's why they tell you not to brush little kid's teeth with adult toothpaste, and you aren't supposed to swallow it.

Fluoride occurs naturally in many water sources, often in much higher concentrations than the EPA allows in US drinking water.
2014-03-07 01:46:29 PM
6 votes:
Interesting.

At what concentrations and exposures?

If it is shown that current levels of exposure cause problems, we can address that.
2014-03-07 01:52:13 PM
5 votes:
The fluoride part was observed in children in China. The average estimated IQ reduction was about 7 points.
I have trouble with pointing to fluroide as the direct cause of the problem, since it's going to be pretty diffuclt to separate out the other potential environmental toxins they might have also been exposed to, what with this being China and all.

Also, this paper starts pulling numbers out of their ass towards the end, where they try to equate each lost IQ point with an $18,000 reduction in lifetime earnings.  We know neurotoxicity is bad. You don't have to make extra stuff up to show how terrible it is.
2014-03-07 01:47:21 PM
5 votes:
How many people believe subby without reading the abstract for themselves?
2014-03-07 01:51:47 PM
4 votes:

WhoGAS: Yeah, I got a bit confused...still am.  Did subby just post the wrong link?


Something tells me that Subby was googling for trollbait and found this, and since 95% of FARkers don't have access to a medical journal clearing house, or aren't willing to pay 15 bucks to read the full article, they can make it support what they like.

SpacePirate: Yay, neurotoxicants in the water supply! Of course, keep calling those people that ask valid questions "crazy".  Hell, even call them anti-science. That one works pretty well these days. Like the entire city of Portland, Oregon. 

/farkers
//brushing your teeth works well too
///just saiyan


Except that overwhelming evidence indicates that even with proper oral hygiene, the rate of dental caries in a population is far less with proper fluoridation of a public water supply and is safe to that population.

If you have evidence that at doses of 0.7 to 1.0ppm public water fluoridation produces fluoride intoxication and neurological injury, please present it for consideration.

/Portland removing fluoridation had nothing to do with Science, and everything to do with backyard NIMBYism.
2014-03-07 01:42:37 PM
4 votes:
BUT less cavities

I'd go to a psychiatrist any day of the week over a dentist
2014-03-07 02:10:39 PM
3 votes:

GORDON: Brain damage?  Well it would certainly explain all the city people on municipal water supplies voting democrat.

Bazinga.


That's true. They should vote for privatized water supplies that REALLY care about their safety, like in west virginia.
2014-03-07 02:10:06 PM
3 votes:

farknozzle: The fluoride part was observed in children in China. The average estimated IQ reduction was about 7 points.
I have trouble with pointing to fluroide as the direct cause of the problem, since it's going to be pretty diffuclt to separate out the other potential environmental toxins they might have also been exposed to, what with this being China and all.

Also, this paper starts pulling numbers out of their ass towards the end, where they try to equate each lost IQ point with an $18,000 reduction in lifetime earnings.  We know neurotoxicity is bad. You don't have to make extra stuff up to show how terrible it is.


also contains these nuggets:

Exposure to air pollution can cause neuro developmental 
delays and disorders of behavioural functions.68,69 Of the 
individual components of air pollution, carbon monoxide 
is a well-documented neurotoxicant, and indoor exposure 
to this substance has now been linked to defi cient 
neurobehavioural performance in children

Our updated literature review shows that since 2006 the 
list of recognised human neurotoxicants has expanded by 
12 chemicals, from 202 (including ethanol) to 214 (table 1 
and appendix)-that is, by about two substances per year. 
Many of these chemicals are widely used and disseminated 
extensively in the global environment. Of the newly 
identified neuro developmental toxicants, pesticides 
constitute the largest group, as was already the case in 2006.

I don't doubt the need to study the effects of most or all of these compounds.. but it appears that what these guys are fishing for is government funding for lifetime employment without having to produce any actual results for decades.
2014-03-07 02:06:05 PM
3 votes:
They also mention manganese. Our bodies require small amounts of dietary manganese each day.

My children were given daily fluoride as children - drops then tablets - and are healthy intelligent and cavity free. Stop jumping to unfounded conclusions based on one word Subby and go back to your Daily Mail.
2014-03-07 02:05:41 PM
3 votes:
TFA says nothing about fluoridated water.  The quantities of fluoride that are added to American tap water are very safe and demonstrably so.

Not added fluoride creates numerous carries, some of which can end up becoming infected teeth that must be removed.  Infections in the mouth are very dangerous since they sometimes move on to the brain and cause brain damage or death if not treated quickly.

/Farking Wichita, KS voted against adding fluoride to the water yet again.  They are a bunch of dumbasses that get their health and science information from the likes of Suzanne Somers and Jenny McCarthy.
2014-03-07 02:00:47 PM
3 votes:
Actual study on fluoride cited in Lancet article  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491930/ "Children in high-fluoride areas had significantly lower IQ scores than those who lived in low-fluoride areas".

Criticism of study  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621182/ "a difference of 0.4 in mean IQ is clinically negligible, even though it was statistically significant"

Authors' reply to criticism  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621205/ "For commonly used IQ scores with a mean of 100 and an SD of 15, 0.45 SDs is equivalent to 6.75 points (rounded to 7 points)".

Feel free to draw your own conclusions about whether the claimed 7 points on an IQ score is cause for concern.
2014-03-07 01:51:07 PM
3 votes:
Woooooo...a review article, with one mention of fluoride, in a table, and no reference....
2014-03-07 01:45:37 PM
3 votes:
Or not. The letter in TFA doesn't say what submitter thinks it says. Also, you made Paracelsus facepalm/.
2014-03-07 02:49:41 PM
2 votes:

correct horse battery staple: Actual study on fluoride cited in Lancet article  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491930/ "Children in high-fluoride areas had significantly lower IQ scores than those who lived in low-fluoride areas".

Criticism of study  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621182/ "a difference of 0.4 in mean IQ is clinically negligible, even though it was statistically significant"

Authors' reply to criticism  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621205/ "For commonly used IQ scores with a mean of 100 and an SD of 15, 0.45 SDs is equivalent to 6.75 points (rounded to 7 points)".

Feel free to draw your own conclusions about whether the claimed 7 points on an IQ score is cause for concern.


It should also be noted that the case also only looked into cases where the fluoride levels are way higher than the levels used in municipal waters - specifically, it looked into children in China where the water is naturally polluted with extremely high levels of dissolved fluoride.
2014-03-07 02:46:38 PM
2 votes:

Tigger: This thread is farking GOLD for figuring out whose who's a moron.



Fixed that for you.
2014-03-07 02:29:09 PM
2 votes:

McDougal: simkatu: TFA says nothing about fluoridated water.

From TFA: "A meta-analysis of 27 cross-sectional studies of children exposed to fluoride in drinking water, mainly from China, suggests an average IQ decrement of about seven points in children exposed to raised fluoride concentrations. "


from the study referenced.

Although acute fluoride poisoning may be neurotoxic to adults, most of the epidemiological information available on associations with children's neurodevelopment is from China, where fluoride generally occurs in drinking water as a natural contaminant, and the concentration depends on local geological conditions.
Opportunities for epidemiological studies depend on the existence of comparable population groups exposed to different levels of fluoride from drinking water. Such circumstances are difficult to find in many industrialized countries, because fluoride concentrations in community water are usually no higher than 1 mg/L, even when fluoride is added to water supplies as a public health measure to reduce tooth decay. Multiple epidemiological studies of developmental fluoride neurotoxicity were conducted in China because of the high fluoride concentrations that are substantially above 1 mg/L in well water in many rural communities, although microbiologically safe water has been accessible to many rural households as a result of the recent 5-year plan (2001-2005) by the Chinese government

just saying...
2014-03-07 02:04:19 PM
2 votes:
Newsflash: Water is also toxic in high doses.
2014-03-07 01:57:23 PM
2 votes:

skantea: At this point in history, if you don't realize that big business does not care about you as an individual then you deserve to be one of the 40% projected to get cancer.  It's not a conspiracy, it's just money focused (greedy?) people passing the blame from the top down.  In the end LEGALLY it will always be your fault you're sick.


i2.kym-cdn.com
2014-03-07 01:50:51 PM
2 votes:
When did the Lancet go free?

Also, they used the China studies, and say the following

"A meta-analysis of 27 cross-sectional studies of children exposed to fluoride in drinking water, mainly from China, suggests an average IQ decrement of about seven points in children exposed to raised fluoride concentrations.44 Confounding from other substances seemed unlikely in most of these studies. Further characterisation of the dose-response association would be desirable. "

A call for more research, which I can get behind.
2014-03-07 01:48:55 PM
2 votes:
So we are skipping having the media over-react to a single study and are doing it ourselves? Good, cut out the middleman.
2014-03-07 01:41:50 PM
2 votes:
Being right doesn't mean anyone will believe you.
2014-03-07 11:00:29 PM
1 votes:
Fluoride was used by the Nazis for the concentration camp prisoners.  Seems this natural element is very good at keeping human beings
in a sheep-like state.   Maybe anyone here has ever wondered how those prisoners seemed so subdued and in a state of fatalism, even
as they stood in neat, orderly lines as they were being executed with a gunshot to the back of the head.

Fluoride never leaves the human body, and in fact, it accumulates in the bones.  Insomnia in late life is a symptom of this condition.

Here is another fact:  human bodies are easily found even when buried several feet deep in the earth, because the fluoride is detectable.

Chlorine in the drinking water is the bigger problem in my book.  That is no different from drinking bleach.

This is why i personally drink only well water.  Sure there is arsenic, lead and other elements present, but it is better than being a damn sheep.
2014-03-07 04:04:07 PM
1 votes:
I may be laying my money on manganese, if I lay money on anything.

i90.photobucket.com
2014-03-07 03:22:40 PM
1 votes:

HoratioGates: I used to swallow my toothpaste when I was a kid, and I have an IQ in the 160's.

I'm not sure why a kid with an IQ in the 160's would swallow toothpaste, but even we geniuses screw up sometimes, and I'm way too crazy and unfocused to do a study.


Imagine how smart you'd be if you weren't mentally retarded!
2014-03-07 03:09:27 PM
1 votes:
Shut up and eat your dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane.
2014-03-07 03:03:33 PM
1 votes:
Crazy?

Not so sure what's crazy about not wanting crap added to your drinking water, subs.
2014-03-07 02:44:47 PM
1 votes:
Ah, yes, the Lancet.  The fine folks who brought us the legitimization of "vaccines cause autism".   I wonder if the guy who ran this study has some new formula to replace the plastic they're using now or something (the guy who did the autism study had a new preservative for vaccines to sell).

The Lancet has retracted more than a well-used DC-3.
2014-03-07 02:32:00 PM
1 votes:

correct horse battery staple: Actual study on fluoride cited in Lancet article  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491930/ "Children in high-fluoride areas had significantly lower IQ scores than those who lived in low-fluoride areas".

Criticism of study  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621182/ "a difference of 0.4 in mean IQ is clinically negligible, even though it was statistically significant"

Authors' reply to criticism  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621205/ "For commonly used IQ scores with a mean of 100 and an SD of 15, 0.45 SDs is equivalent to 6.75 points (rounded to 7 points)".

Feel free to draw your own conclusions about whether the claimed 7 points on an IQ score is cause for concern.



Fark needs more posters like this guy.
2014-03-07 02:23:10 PM
1 votes:
Seven IQ points is the difference between "getting something" and not "getting something."

That's why it's literally a waste of time to talk to most people...because most people are drinking more water than ever before because it's cheaper and always available.

*bad idea moment*

Make municipal water cost a fortune! Freedom and safety! derp
2014-03-07 02:19:22 PM
1 votes:
also...

The antisocial behavior, criminal behavior, violence, 
and substance abuse that seem to result from early-life 
exposures to some neurotoxic chemicals result in 
increased needs for special educational services, 
institutionalisation, and even incarceration. In the USA, 
the murder rate fell sharply 20 years after the removal of 
lead from petrol,102 a finding consistent with the idea that
exposure to lead in early life is a powerful determinant of
behavior decades later.  Although poorly quantified,
such behavioral and social consequences of of neuro-
developmental toxicity are potentially very costly.
2014-03-07 02:09:35 PM
1 votes:
Annnnd the damage control arrives. Once again people, because brushing your teeth and flossing is apparently too farking hard, let's run the risk of putting light amounts of neurotoxins in everyone's water, all of the time. That makes perfect sense.  

It's not like there are any possible alternatives
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-keep-32-chemical-keep-you-cavity-fre e/
2014-03-07 02:08:52 PM
1 votes:
Brain damage?  Well it would certainly explain all the city people on municipal water supplies voting democrat.

Bazinga.
2014-03-07 02:06:20 PM
1 votes:
"Untested chemicals should not be presumed to be safe to brain development, and chemicals in existing use and all new chemicals must therefore be tested for developmental neurotoxicity. "

No shiat they shouldn't.

What scares me the most is that apparently they at least the article insists that they don't test chemicals for developmental neurotoxicity already.
2014-03-07 02:03:23 PM
1 votes:

meat0918: See the green bit?

"This article is made available free of charge, as a service to our users."

Not all are, but this one is.


Ahah. I need sleep.
2014-03-07 01:58:34 PM
1 votes:
2014-03-07 01:53:49 PM
1 votes:

meat0918: At what concentrations and exposures?


400 gallons daily for 3 centuries.
2014-03-07 01:53:14 PM
1 votes:

SpacePirate: Yay, neurotoxicants in the water supply! Of course, keep calling those people that ask valid questions "crazy".  Hell, even call them anti-science. That one works pretty well these days. Like the entire city of Portland, Oregon. 

/farkers
//brushing your teeth works well too
///just saiyan


Portland hasn't exactly been spared neurological problems despite not having fluoride in the water.
2014-03-07 01:52:14 PM
1 votes:
Another study about fluoride in China?

A meta-analysis of 27 cross-sectional studies of children exposed to fluoride in drinking water, mainly from China, suggests an average IQ decrement of about seven points in children exposed to raised fluoride concentrations.44

What do I win?
2014-03-07 01:49:36 PM
1 votes:
FTFA: "Since 2006, epidemiological studies have documented six additional developmental neurotoxicants-manganese, fluoride, chlorpyrifos, dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, and the polybrominated diphenyl ethers."


I doubt brushing your teeth with it causes harm, but drinking it in your water all the time is stupid.


And I am convinced that it lowers IQ. It must. There has to be something literally in the water.

/judge away
2014-03-07 01:43:39 PM
1 votes:
www.storiesofgods.com
2014-03-07 01:43:05 PM
1 votes:
What the hell subby? This isn't a daily mail link how will I know if it is true or not now?
 
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