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(The Lancet)   Those crazy people who are afraid of fluoride might have been right all along   (thelancet.com) divider line 130
    More: Scary, fluorides, developmental toxicity, systematic review, cognitive impairment, chemical industries  
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13279 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Mar 2014 at 1:40 PM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-07 02:10:06 PM  

farknozzle: The fluoride part was observed in children in China. The average estimated IQ reduction was about 7 points.
I have trouble with pointing to fluroide as the direct cause of the problem, since it's going to be pretty diffuclt to separate out the other potential environmental toxins they might have also been exposed to, what with this being China and all.

Also, this paper starts pulling numbers out of their ass towards the end, where they try to equate each lost IQ point with an $18,000 reduction in lifetime earnings.  We know neurotoxicity is bad. You don't have to make extra stuff up to show how terrible it is.


also contains these nuggets:

Exposure to air pollution can cause neuro developmental 
delays and disorders of behavioural functions.68,69 Of the 
individual components of air pollution, carbon monoxide 
is a well-documented neurotoxicant, and indoor exposure 
to this substance has now been linked to defi cient 
neurobehavioural performance in children

Our updated literature review shows that since 2006 the 
list of recognised human neurotoxicants has expanded by 
12 chemicals, from 202 (including ethanol) to 214 (table 1 
and appendix)-that is, by about two substances per year. 
Many of these chemicals are widely used and disseminated 
extensively in the global environment. Of the newly 
identified neuro developmental toxicants, pesticides 
constitute the largest group, as was already the case in 2006.

I don't doubt the need to study the effects of most or all of these compounds.. but it appears that what these guys are fishing for is government funding for lifetime employment without having to produce any actual results for decades.
 
2014-03-07 02:10:39 PM  

GORDON: Brain damage?  Well it would certainly explain all the city people on municipal water supplies voting democrat.

Bazinga.


That's true. They should vote for privatized water supplies that REALLY care about their safety, like in west virginia.
 
2014-03-07 02:12:05 PM  

Fano: hardinparamedic: Fano: Well they use it in rat poison.

/and that's the end of the whole mess

They also use Coumadin in Rat Poison. Why would they poison people with Atrial Fibrillation with it?!

I once trolled a patient worried about 'chemicals' by telling them what warfarin is and how you can buy it at the feed n seed


Did you also tell them it was formerly owned by Chuck?
 
2014-03-07 02:12:07 PM  

McDougal: ikanreed: How many people believe subby without reading the abstract for themselves?

Better yet, clicking the link to the entire article? I think fluoride is mentioned once more than once.


FTFM. Damned decaf.
 
2014-03-07 02:17:12 PM  
It's a non-issue, since the American public drinks all of its water from polyethylene bottles.  So that they can get a belly full of yummy plasticizers and solvents.  Then those bottles can get "recycled" (snort).
 
2014-03-07 02:19:22 PM  
also...

The antisocial behavior, criminal behavior, violence, 
and substance abuse that seem to result from early-life 
exposures to some neurotoxic chemicals result in 
increased needs for special educational services, 
institutionalisation, and even incarceration. In the USA, 
the murder rate fell sharply 20 years after the removal of 
lead from petrol,102 a finding consistent with the idea that
exposure to lead in early life is a powerful determinant of
behavior decades later.  Although poorly quantified,
such behavioral and social consequences of of neuro-
developmental toxicity are potentially very costly.
 
2014-03-07 02:20:12 PM  

simkatu: TFA says nothing about fluoridated water.


From TFA: "A meta-analysis of 27 cross-sectional studies of children exposed to fluoride in drinking water, mainly from China, suggests an average IQ decrement of about seven points in children exposed to raised fluoride concentrations. "
 
2014-03-07 02:21:29 PM  
The original issue wasn't the floride itself. It was establishing the precedent that the government had a right to mass medicate the masses. For other purposes, perhaps. Suppressing fertility. Making the population more passive so they're easily managed, and so forth.

/has a well
//in the country
///no traces of discarded phrarms in *my* water
 
2014-03-07 02:23:10 PM  
Seven IQ points is the difference between "getting something" and not "getting something."

That's why it's literally a waste of time to talk to most people...because most people are drinking more water than ever before because it's cheaper and always available.

*bad idea moment*

Make municipal water cost a fortune! Freedom and safety! derp
 
2014-03-07 02:23:17 PM  

noitsnot: It's a non-issue, since the American public drinks all of its water from polyethylene bottles.  So that they can get a belly full of yummy plasticizers and solvents.  Then those bottles can get "recycled" (snort).


I know people in Michigan that drink bottled water to escape fluoride.

That water is bottled in a city that fluoridates it's water.

Not to mention that cities situated on a river that fluoridate their water end up passing on the fluoride to anyone downstream.
 
2014-03-07 02:29:09 PM  

McDougal: simkatu: TFA says nothing about fluoridated water.

From TFA: "A meta-analysis of 27 cross-sectional studies of children exposed to fluoride in drinking water, mainly from China, suggests an average IQ decrement of about seven points in children exposed to raised fluoride concentrations. "


from the study referenced.

Although acute fluoride poisoning may be neurotoxic to adults, most of the epidemiological information available on associations with children's neurodevelopment is from China, where fluoride generally occurs in drinking water as a natural contaminant, and the concentration depends on local geological conditions.
Opportunities for epidemiological studies depend on the existence of comparable population groups exposed to different levels of fluoride from drinking water. Such circumstances are difficult to find in many industrialized countries, because fluoride concentrations in community water are usually no higher than 1 mg/L, even when fluoride is added to water supplies as a public health measure to reduce tooth decay. Multiple epidemiological studies of developmental fluoride neurotoxicity were conducted in China because of the high fluoride concentrations that are substantially above 1 mg/L in well water in many rural communities, although microbiologically safe water has been accessible to many rural households as a result of the recent 5-year plan (2001-2005) by the Chinese government

just saying...
 
2014-03-07 02:32:00 PM  

correct horse battery staple: Actual study on fluoride cited in Lancet article  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491930/ "Children in high-fluoride areas had significantly lower IQ scores than those who lived in low-fluoride areas".

Criticism of study  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621182/ "a difference of 0.4 in mean IQ is clinically negligible, even though it was statistically significant"

Authors' reply to criticism  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621205/ "For commonly used IQ scores with a mean of 100 and an SD of 15, 0.45 SDs is equivalent to 6.75 points (rounded to 7 points)".

Feel free to draw your own conclusions about whether the claimed 7 points on an IQ score is cause for concern.



Fark needs more posters like this guy.
 
2014-03-07 02:33:19 PM  
meant to include this part...

The exposed groups had access to drinking water with fluoride concentrations up to 11.5 mg/L (Wang SX et al. 2007); thus, in many cases concentrations were above the levels recommended (0.7-1.2 mg/L; DHHS) or allowed in public drinking water (4.0 mg/L; U.S. EPA) in the United States ().
 
2014-03-07 02:33:32 PM  

meat0918: Interesting.

At what concentrations and exposures?

If it is shown that current levels of exposure cause problems, we can address that.


What are you going to say?  "Hello, how are you?"

i48.tinypic.com
 
2014-03-07 02:41:58 PM  
I used to swallow my toothpaste when I was a kid, and I have an IQ in the 160's.

I'm not sure why a kid with an IQ in the 160's would swallow toothpaste, but even we geniuses screw up sometimes, and I'm way too crazy and unfocused to do a study.
 
2014-03-07 02:44:47 PM  
Ah, yes, the Lancet.  The fine folks who brought us the legitimization of "vaccines cause autism".   I wonder if the guy who ran this study has some new formula to replace the plastic they're using now or something (the guy who did the autism study had a new preservative for vaccines to sell).

The Lancet has retracted more than a well-used DC-3.
 
2014-03-07 02:45:22 PM  
This thread is farking GOLD for figuring out whose a moron.
 
2014-03-07 02:46:38 PM  

Tigger: This thread is farking GOLD for figuring out whose who's a moron.



Fixed that for you.
 
2014-03-07 02:49:41 PM  

correct horse battery staple: Actual study on fluoride cited in Lancet article  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491930/ "Children in high-fluoride areas had significantly lower IQ scores than those who lived in low-fluoride areas".

Criticism of study  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621182/ "a difference of 0.4 in mean IQ is clinically negligible, even though it was statistically significant"

Authors' reply to criticism  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621205/ "For commonly used IQ scores with a mean of 100 and an SD of 15, 0.45 SDs is equivalent to 6.75 points (rounded to 7 points)".

Feel free to draw your own conclusions about whether the claimed 7 points on an IQ score is cause for concern.


It should also be noted that the case also only looked into cases where the fluoride levels are way higher than the levels used in municipal waters - specifically, it looked into children in China where the water is naturally polluted with extremely high levels of dissolved fluoride.
 
2014-03-07 02:54:09 PM  

walktoanarcade: Tigger: This thread is farking GOLD for figuring out whose who's a moron.


Fixed that for you.


that's the.... never mind.
 
2014-03-07 02:55:24 PM  

Tigger: walktoanarcade: Tigger: This thread is farking GOLD for figuring out whose who's a moron.


Fixed that for you.

that's the.... never mind.


Are you actually going for the LOLitrollyou.jpg defence?


/sure
//nice try
 
2014-03-07 02:56:44 PM  

meat0918: Interesting.

At what concentrations and exposures?

If it is shown that current levels of exposure cause problems, we can address that.


Well someone would have to read past the abstract then. Ain't nobody got time fo dat.
 
2014-03-07 02:59:17 PM  
Be afraid, be very afraid - it's just a flush away, it's just a flush away... `cocktails, anyone?'

http://www.epa.gov/ppcp/basic2.html

Oh, animal model research of the effects of the actual levels of any particular agent (or combination of agents) that constitutes the exposure over time (impact on development of neural tubes for example)?  Whar's the money?

With so many `special (Chem Corp.political contributors/big employers in Cong. District) interests' lined up on one side, and the other side beating their alarm drums & weaving conspiracies and predicting the third eye of doom owing to picograms per liter of this or that (vanishing point of credibility)?

/"don't drink the water and don't breath the air" your pal, Tom Lehrer
 
2014-03-07 03:01:12 PM  
28 y/o and still not a single cavity.

And our family is somewhat crazy anyway.

/i still fail to see any downside.
 
2014-03-07 03:03:33 PM  
Crazy?

Not so sure what's crazy about not wanting crap added to your drinking water, subs.
 
2014-03-07 03:04:57 PM  

Sofa King Smart: also...

The antisocial behavior, criminal behavior, violence, 
and substance abuse that seem to result from early-life 
exposures to some neurotoxic chemicals result in 
increased needs for special educational services, 
institutionalisation, and even incarceration. In the USA, 
the murder rate fell sharply 20 years after the removal of 
lead from petrol,102 a finding consistent with the idea that
exposure to lead in early life is a powerful determinant of
behavior decades later.  Although poorly quantified,
such behavioral and social consequences of of neuro-
developmental toxicity are potentially very costly.


Btu I've been told those reductions in crime were the consequence of Roe v. Wade decreasing the number of unwanted pregnancies...

/farking correlation is not causation, how does it work????
 
2014-03-07 03:09:27 PM  
Shut up and eat your dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane.
 
2014-03-07 03:11:42 PM  
FT Summary of the Article: Since 2006, epidemiological studies have documented six additional developmental neurotoxicants-manganese, fluoride, chlorpyrifos, dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, and the polybrominated diphenyl ethers.

I'm with the people who say "At what molarity/molality?"
 
2014-03-07 03:22:40 PM  

HoratioGates: I used to swallow my toothpaste when I was a kid, and I have an IQ in the 160's.

I'm not sure why a kid with an IQ in the 160's would swallow toothpaste, but even we geniuses screw up sometimes, and I'm way too crazy and unfocused to do a study.


Imagine how smart you'd be if you weren't mentally retarded!
 
2014-03-07 03:29:30 PM  

walktoanarcade: FTFA: "Since 2006, epidemiological studies have documented six additional developmental neurotoxicants-manganese, fluoride, chlorpyrifos, dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, and the polybrominated diphenyl ethers."


I doubt brushing your teeth with it causes harm, but drinking it in your water all the time is stupid.


And I am convinced that it lowers IQ. It must. There has to be something literally in the water.

/judge away


Im dumb as post and I never drink water or brush my teeth.
 
2014-03-07 03:34:20 PM  
Florida should be spelled Flourida
 
2014-03-07 03:36:14 PM  

walktoanarcade: Tigger: walktoanarcade: Tigger: This thread is farking GOLD for figuring out whose who's a moron.


Fixed that for you.

that's the.... never mind.

Are you actually going for the LOLitrollyou.jpg defence?


/sure
//nice try


I wasn't going for anything. lighten up francis.
 
2014-03-07 03:43:36 PM  

skantea: At this point in history, if you don't realize that big business does not care about you as an individual then you deserve to be one of the 40% projected to get cancer.  It's not a conspiracy, it's just money focused (greedy?) people passing the blame from the top down.  In the end LEGALLY it will always be your fault you're sick.


So 3.2 BILLION people on the planet are going to get cancer?
 
2014-03-07 03:43:36 PM  

Sofa King Smart: meant to include this part...

The exposed groups had access to drinking water with fluoride concentrations up to 11.5 mg/L (Wang SX et al. 2007); thus, in many cases concentrations were above the levels recommended (0.7-1.2 mg/L; DHHS) or allowed in public drinking water (4.0 mg/L; U.S. EPA) in the United States ().


Gah, you beat me to it.  No I did all that reading for nothing.
 
2014-03-07 03:43:45 PM  

reggaejunkiejew: HoratioGates: I used to swallow my toothpaste when I was a kid, and I have an IQ in the 160's.

I'm not sure why a kid with an IQ in the 160's would swallow toothpaste, but even we geniuses screw up sometimes, and I'm way too crazy and unfocused to do a study.

Imagine how smart you'd be if you weren't mentally retarded!


He'd have to robotrip to ever be able to interact with society. I think he's happier as a naturally handicapped person.
 
2014-03-07 03:48:11 PM  

Tigger: walktoanarcade: Tigger: walktoanarcade: Tigger: This thread is farking GOLD for figuring out whose who's a moron.


Fixed that for you.

that's the.... never mind.

Are you actually going for the LOLitrollyou.jpg defence?


/sure
//nice try

I wasn't going for anything. lighten up francis.


I may have been convinced of that had you not further replied and simply let it go. :) In fact, I was leaning that way in a bit of reflection, but again I see I was second guessing myself.
 
2014-03-07 03:49:36 PM  

Omis: walktoanarcade: FTFA: "Since 2006, epidemiological studies have documented six additional developmental neurotoxicants-manganese, fluoride, chlorpyrifos, dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, tetrachloroethylene, and the polybrominated diphenyl ethers."


I doubt brushing your teeth with it causes harm, but drinking it in your water all the time is stupid.


And I am convinced that it lowers IQ. It must. There has to be something literally in the water.

/judge away

Im dumb as post and I never drink water or brush my teeth.


I worsh mahself wid a rag onasstic
 
2014-03-07 03:56:26 PM  

pkellmey: Newsflash: Water is also toxic in high doses.


static.fjcdn.com
 
2014-03-07 04:04:07 PM  
I may be laying my money on manganese, if I lay money on anything.

i90.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-07 04:04:51 PM  
Nonsense. I ate toothpaste as a child and jam biscuit hadron brastrap.
 
2014-03-07 04:14:37 PM  
Sodium flouride is a hazardous byproduct of aluminum manufacturing. If we don't add it to the water, aluminum prices will go up.
 
2014-03-07 04:19:23 PM  

Russ1642: meat0918: Interesting.

At what concentrations and exposures?

If it is shown that current levels of exposure cause problems, we can address that.

Well someone would have to read past the abstract then. Ain't nobody got time fo dat.


They actually would have to read the study this study cited, which I admittedly didn't because I assumed that while I have access to this one, I do not have access to the other.

Thankfully, others in this thread have access, and we know the answer is in the neighborhood of 11.5mg/L, where US municipal water supplies are on the order of 0.7mg/L to 1.2mg/L(about 10 times lower than the amount in the studied areas of China), with the upper limit established by the EPA at 4.0 mg/L
 
2014-03-07 04:32:33 PM  
FTFA:
To control the pandemic of developmental neurotoxicity, we propose a global prevention strategy. Untested chemicals should not be presumed to be safe to brain development, and chemicals in existing use and all new chemicals must therefore be tested for developmental neurotoxicity. To coordinate these efforts and to accelerate translation of science into prevention, we propose the urgent formation of a new international clearinghouse.

Seriously? A pandemic?  And IFUTAC, the authors are saying that all chemicals (and remember, almost everything is made up of chemicals - people, rocks, cheese, Soylent Green, water, air, food, boogers) need to be tested for neurotoxicity. I think this is akin to setting up an enterprise to count all the grains of sand on all the beaches in the world, or check every human being for every possible ailment - an infinite amount of research, taking an infinite amount of time, providing someone infinite employment.
 
2014-03-07 04:35:13 PM  

SpacePirate: Annnnd the damage control arrives. Once again people, because brushing your teeth and flossing is apparently too farking hard, let's run the risk of putting light amounts of neurotoxins in everyone's water, all of the time. That makes perfect sense.  

It's not like there are any possible alternatives
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-keep-32-chemical-keep-you-cavity-fre e/


But this alternative (Keep 32) is a chemical! It could be neurotoxin! Which is the whole point of the original article.
 
2014-03-07 04:36:22 PM  

Nesher: FTFA:
To control the pandemic of developmental neurotoxicity, we propose a global prevention strategy. Untested chemicals should not be presumed to be safe to brain development, and chemicals in existing use and all new chemicals must therefore be tested for developmental neurotoxicity. To coordinate these efforts and to accelerate translation of science into prevention, we propose the urgent formation of a new international clearinghouse.

Seriously? A pandemic?  And IFUTAC, the authors are saying that all chemicals (and remember, almost everything is made up of chemicals - people, rocks, cheese, Soylent Green, water, air, food, boogers) need to be tested for neurotoxicity. I think this is akin to setting up an enterprise to count all the grains of sand on all the beaches in the world, or check every human being for every possible ailment - an infinite amount of research, taking an infinite amount of time, providing someone infinite employment.


We've been looking for an answer on how to gainfully employ the bulk of humanity now that mechanical devices have usurped the bulk of tasks humans once did, and I think you've found it.
 
2014-03-07 04:37:39 PM  

meat0918: We've been looking for an answer on how to gainfully employ the bulk of humanity now that mechanical devices have usurped the bulk of tasks humans once did, and I think you've found it.


beats fighting the bugs
 
2014-03-07 04:38:19 PM  

hammettman: I may be laying my money on manganese, if I lay money on anything.

[i90.photobucket.com image 200x200]


Dammit - couldn't find a good link to the pic and gave up.  Thanks for perservering!

/Chinch bugs
 
2014-03-07 04:38:44 PM  
Fluorine...

Why so electronegative?
 
2014-03-07 04:38:49 PM  
Those crazy people who are afraid of fluoride might have been right all along

Well, they were still crazy to be running around saying it was the Commies putting fluoride in our water.  It was the capitalists.
 
2014-03-07 04:38:50 PM  

SovietCanuckistan: Shut up and eat your dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane.


Fortunately, many countries recognized the danger and banned DDT a long time ago. According to Wikipedia, though, it's still used in India and North Korea.
 
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