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(RealClear)   Bitcoin officially not a currency. Luckily this means they can tax it   (realclear.com) divider line 218
    More: Followup, Jiji Press, finance ministry, U.S. Federal Reserve, Janet Yellen  
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7257 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Mar 2014 at 10:20 AM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-03-07 08:37:23 AM
Do you owe taxes if you make money trading in a foreign currency? The same principle should apply to bitcoin. It does not have a defined fixed value in the local currency, so gains and losses are possible as with investments in general.
 
2014-03-07 09:31:24 AM
They're talking about a sales tax/value-added tax, which currencies are usually exempt from.

If it isn't a currency, but people buy it, you can make them pay sales tax on it.
 
2014-03-07 09:37:48 AM
 
2014-03-07 10:23:09 AM

ZAZ: Do you owe taxes if you make money trading in a foreign currency? The same principle should apply to bitcoin. It does not have a defined fixed value in the local currency, so gains and losses are possible as with investments in general.


Yes, you do. You also get taxed if someone gives you a car, which also isn't currency.
 
2014-03-07 10:25:03 AM
FTA:  there are no Japanese laws that clearly define bitcoin

I bet that they do actually have laws that clearly define bitcoin, the problem is that the lawyers, judges, and legislators don't clearly understand bitcoin.
 
2014-03-07 10:27:07 AM

ZAZ: Do you owe taxes if you make money trading in a foreign currency? The same principle should apply to bitcoin. It does not have a defined fixed value in the local currency, so gains and losses are possible as with investments in general.


The below seems like a fair treatment for Bitcoin trading:

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/09/forex-taxation-basics. as p

For Over-the-Counter (OTC) Investors
Most spot traders are taxed according to IRC 988 contracts. These contracts are for foreign exchange transactions settled within two days, making them open to ordinary gains and losses as reported to the IRS. If you trade spot forex you will likely automatically be grouped in this category.
The main benefit of this tax treatment is loss protection. If you experience net losses through your year-end trading, being categorized as a "988 trader" serves as a large benefit. As in the 1256 contract, you can count all of your losses as "ordinary losses" instead of just the first $3,000.
 
2014-03-07 10:27:48 AM
If everyone turned around and started trading pogs, that wouldn't suddenly make pogs a currency either
 
2014-03-07 10:29:24 AM

Lost Thought 00: If everyone turned around and started trading pogs, that wouldn't suddenly make pogs a currency either


It would if people started trading pogs for goods and services without using an existing currency as an intermediate. Which is actually a pretty big distinction.
 
2014-03-07 10:32:08 AM

Lost Thought 00: If everyone turned around and started trading pogs, that wouldn't suddenly make pogs a currency either


Which is as likely as people trading Beanie Babies for goods and services.

I guess the Bitcoin "enthusiasts" should be allowed to be separated from reality as much as they'd like to be.
 
2014-03-07 10:34:25 AM

spiritplumber: Lost Thought 00: If everyone turned around and started trading pogs, that wouldn't suddenly make pogs a currency either

It would if people started trading pogs for goods and services without using an existing currency as an intermediate. Which is actually a pretty big distinction.


Wouldn't that make it barter?
 
2014-03-07 10:34:59 AM
ww2.hdnux.com
Sort of want.
 
2014-03-07 10:35:19 AM
If it's not a currency, how can I buy things with it?
 
2014-03-07 10:36:43 AM

Lost Thought 00: If everyone turned around and started trading pogs, that wouldn't suddenly make pogs a currency either


No that would exactly make them a currency. If you would accept Pogs as payment for goods and services as well as be able to buy goods and services with Pogs then that is a currency

Giant Rai stones on the island of Yap are currency.
 
2014-03-07 10:36:49 AM
 
2014-03-07 10:36:50 AM
Is this the thread where all the "savvy financial thinkers" who missed the bus on Bitcoin try to compare it to tulip mania? Again?
 
2014-03-07 10:37:07 AM
If the banks can't get their cut then it's not a currency.
 
2014-03-07 10:38:50 AM

spiritplumber: It would if people started trading pogs for goods and services without using an existing currency as an intermediate.


I remember pot becoming a virtual currency in certain circles, back in the 70's. Those were some serene times.
 
2014-03-07 10:39:16 AM
i141.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-07 10:41:00 AM

Elroydb: Lost Thought 00: If everyone turned around and started trading pogs, that wouldn't suddenly make pogs a currency either

No that would exactly make them a currency. If you would accept Pogs as payment for goods and services as well as be able to buy goods and services with Pogs then that is a currency

Giant Rai stones on the island of Yap are currency.


That's stretching it a bit. If I trade some shroom's for pot, that doesn't make it a transaction done by currency...it's more of a barter. If I give someone a bud for washing my car, it isn't currency. It's a little more complicated than that.
 
2014-03-07 10:41:11 AM
So apparently this morning a third major exchange collasped and yet the price keeps going up. Someone help me understand how this bitcoin value keeps steady or even goes up when it's been stolen from three major "banks" in the last 3 months to the tune of billions of dollars. Honestly I don't get it.
 
2014-03-07 10:41:54 AM

Walker: I think it's more funny that the founder of Bitcoin says he's never heard of Bitcoin:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2575266/Man-outed-Bitcoin-fo un der-DENIES-digital-currency-leading-reporters-car-chase-highway.html


He is running for his life and the lives of his family. Is it still funny?
 
2014-03-07 10:42:00 AM
Rule #1 if you make it they will tax it.
 
2014-03-07 10:42:09 AM

nijika: Is this the thread where all the "savvy financial thinkers" who missed the bus on Bitcoin try to compare it to tulip mania? Again?


No, this is the thread where people point out that real currencies don't have a "bus" to miss.
 
2014-03-07 10:46:29 AM

CoonAce: The banksters put a hit out on Bitcoin's CEO.


"Bitcoin's CEO" is a concept that makes no sense. You should probably understand why that is before you go posting shiat like this.
 
2014-03-07 10:46:48 AM

foo monkey: If it's not a currency, how can I buy things with it?


Gold isnt a currency either - it is a commodity, and libertarians keep telling me that i can buy stuff with that.  Generally the factors that make a currency rather than merely a commodity include:

Consistent valuation
Consistent utility

Low cost of preservation
Transportability
Divisibility
High market value in relation to volume and weight
Recognisability
Resistance to counterfeiting

Bitcoin wins big on "Low cost of preservation," "transportability" and "High market value in relation to volume and weight."  Its not so good on the bolded terms.  Its value is highly fluctuant and deflationary (which is never good for a currency as it means you hoard it to increase its value, spending it is for suckers, which is a hallmark of a commodity rather than a currency), it often requires effort to find places that will accept it, and doing so may require additional valuation bargaining (i.e. "ok i will give you $12.50 in bitcoins for this $10.00 item").  If you squint, at present it works pretty much like gold, if gold were digital.

This doesn't mean it couldn't become a currency - but i agree with Japan that it isn't there yet.
 
2014-03-07 10:49:30 AM
i.imgur.com

Currency or no?
 
2014-03-07 10:50:31 AM

President Raygun: So apparently this morning a third major exchange collasped and yet the price keeps going up. Someone help me understand how this bitcoin value keeps steady or even goes up when it's been stolen from three major "banks" in the last 3 months to the tune of billions of dollars. Honestly I don't get it.


It is confusing. Because we all know that regular money never gets stolen so why would anyone use bitcoin?
 
2014-03-07 10:51:28 AM
Can I roll it up and snort a line of blow with it? Then it isn't a currency.
 
2014-03-07 10:52:12 AM

Radak: [i.imgur.com image 570x471]

Currency or no?


Most of the time, the bottlecap-NCR dollar transaction rate is a biatch, but it's an alternative over Caesar's Legion.
 
2014-03-07 10:52:42 AM

Hollie Maea: nijika: Is this the thread where all the "savvy financial thinkers" who missed the bus on Bitcoin try to compare it to tulip mania? Again?

No, this is the thread where people point out that real currencies don't have a "bus" to miss.


Except that's totally false. If that was the case there would be no such thing as forex trading.
 
2014-03-07 10:53:26 AM

thurstonxhowell: CoonAce: The banksters put a hit out on Bitcoin's CEO.

"Bitcoin's CEO" is a concept that makes no sense. You should probably understand why that is before you go posting shiat like this.


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-07 10:53:53 AM

CoonAce: The banksters put a hit out on Bitcoin's CEO.



Why would they bother?
 
2014-03-07 10:54:22 AM

ZAZ: Do you owe taxes if you make money trading in a foreign currency? The same principle should apply to bitcoin. It does not have a defined fixed value in the local currency, so gains and losses are possible as with investments in general.


Elroydb: No that would exactly make them a currency. If you would accept Pogs as payment for goods and services as well as be able to buy goods and services with Pogs then that is a currency


No, it would be a barter. Think of a local business trading goods and services to a radio station in exchange for advertising slots. A plumber trading plumbing work to a dentist in exchange for dental work.

In the US, you might have to file a 1099-MISC form with your taxes.
 
2014-03-07 10:55:14 AM
Welly well wells.
 
2014-03-07 10:55:19 AM

Teiritzamna: foo monkey: If it's not a currency, how can I buy things with it?

Gold isnt a currency either - it is a commodity, and libertarians keep telling me that i can buy stuff with that.  Generally the factors that make a currency rather than merely a commodity include:

Consistent valuation
Consistent utility
Low cost of preservation
Transportability
Divisibility
High market value in relation to volume and weight
Recognisability
Resistance to counterfeiting

Bitcoin wins big on "Low cost of preservation," "transportability" and "High market value in relation to volume and weight."  Its not so good on the bolded terms.  Its value is highly fluctuant and deflationary (which is never good for a currency as it means you hoard it to increase its value, spending it is for suckers, which is a hallmark of a commodity rather than a currency), it often requires effort to find places that will accept it, and doing so may require additional valuation bargaining (i.e. "ok i will give you $12.50 in bitcoins for this $10.00 item").  If you squint, at present it works pretty much like gold, if gold were digital.

This doesn't mean it couldn't become a currency - but i agree with Japan that it isn't there yet.


$12.50 for a $10 item, and it's also something to hoard? Wow, you've pegged it as both inflationary AND deflationary. That's an amazing mind you've got.
 
2014-03-07 10:55:29 AM

neversubmit: Walker: I think it's more funny that the founder of Bitcoin says he's never heard of Bitcoin:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2575266/Man-outed-Bitcoin-fo un der-DENIES-digital-currency-leading-reporters-car-chase-highway.html

He is running for his life and the lives of his family. Is it still funny?


Yep.
 
2014-03-07 10:55:50 AM

neversubmit: He is running for his life and the lives of his family. Is it still funny?


The guy is rumored to have almost a million bitcoins, if he does in fact have that many coins I can see why he's so reclusive.  You family would be targeted by every mob/thug/gang/cartel/you name it to gain access to those coins.  It's believed that each block solved went to it's own wallet so each wallet has 50 coins so it doesn't show up in the blockchain as one wallet with an ungodly amount of coins.
 
2014-03-07 10:57:24 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26481646

That that has it about right. He *is* the inventor/founder of Bitcoin.
(If someone could find the original article from the BBC, that'd be great.)

It must sting for all the people that had their money stolen by this guy and his cohorts. The lesson is: If it's too good to be true, it probably is.

Someone told me that "pseudonym" a while ago, and I tell you I knew then they, whoever they were, had the clever and cynical idea to hide the truth in plain sight. Happens a lot.
 
2014-03-07 10:57:29 AM

nijika: Hollie Maea: nijika: Is this the thread where all the "savvy financial thinkers" who missed the bus on Bitcoin try to compare it to tulip mania? Again?

No, this is the thread where people point out that real currencies don't have a "bus" to miss.

Except that's totally false. If that was the case there would be no such thing as forex trading.


I wouldn't call that a bus, but you will surely point to zimbabwe as some kind of proof.
 
2014-03-07 10:57:30 AM
Thingy?
affordablehousinginstitute.org
 
2014-03-07 10:58:54 AM

Wangiss: Teiritzamna: foo monkey: If it's not a currency, how can I buy things with it?

Gold isnt a currency either - it is a commodity, and libertarians keep telling me that i can buy stuff with that.  Generally the factors that make a currency rather than merely a commodity include:

Consistent valuation
Consistent utility
Low cost of preservation
Transportability
Divisibility
High market value in relation to volume and weight
Recognisability
Resistance to counterfeiting

Bitcoin wins big on "Low cost of preservation," "transportability" and "High market value in relation to volume and weight."  Its not so good on the bolded terms.  Its value is highly fluctuant and deflationary (which is never good for a currency as it means you hoard it to increase its value, spending it is for suckers, which is a hallmark of a commodity rather than a currency), it often requires effort to find places that will accept it, and doing so may require additional valuation bargaining (i.e. "ok i will give you $12.50 in bitcoins for this $10.00 item").  If you squint, at present it works pretty much like gold, if gold were digital.

This doesn't mean it couldn't become a currency - but i agree with Japan that it isn't there yet.

$12.50 for a $10 item, and it's also something to hoard? Wow, you've pegged it as both inflationary AND deflationary. That's an amazing mind you've got.


No he didn't. Think harder.
 
2014-03-07 10:58:59 AM

Lost Thought 00: If everyone turned around and started trading pogs, that wouldn't suddenly make pogs a currency either


But algorithms and Galt!
 
2014-03-07 10:59:04 AM

foo monkey: If it's not a currency, how can I buy things with it?


Because you are bartering.
 
2014-03-07 11:00:20 AM

President Raygun: So apparently this morning a third major exchange collasped and yet the price keeps going up. Someone help me understand how this bitcoin value keeps steady or even goes up when it's been stolen from three major "banks" in the last 3 months to the tune of billions of dollars. Honestly I don't get it.


Because there are things that can be done with Bitcoin much more easily than with currency, like purchasing heroin, buying kiddie porn, and taking hits out on people.
 
2014-03-07 11:00:24 AM

walktoanarcade: It must sting for all the people that had their money stolen by this guy and his cohorts.


You could save time by just typing "I don't know how cryptocurrencies work!".
 
2014-03-07 11:01:47 AM

Silly_Sot: Because there are things that can be done with Bitcoin much more easily than with currency, like purchasing heroin, buying kiddie porn, and taking hits out on people.


Cash can do all those things and be used to snort coke. Therefore cash is more evil than bitcoins!!!!!!
 
2014-03-07 11:02:28 AM

generallyso: CoonAce: The banksters put a hit out on Bitcoin's CEO.


Why would they bother?


Because this inconvenient fake-libertarian currency is totally a threat to them for some imagined reason.
 
2014-03-07 11:03:30 AM

Farking Canuck: walktoanarcade: It must sting for all the people that had their money stolen by this guy and his cohorts.

You could save time by just typing "I don't know how cryptocurrencies work!".


It is no more a currency than hunks of gold that is not in minted legal tender form that you'd have to exchange for dollars, except bitcoins will not hold their value like gold, so they're even worse.

Bitcoin is most definitely not a currency.

Japan is right on this one.

If the shait hits the fan dude, no one is going to give you food or anything else in exchange for your bitcoins.  Now maybe if you have some herb...
 
2014-03-07 11:03:55 AM

Smackledorfer: Wangiss: Teiritzamna: foo monkey: If it's not a currency, how can I buy things with it?


Bitcoin wins big on "Low cost of preservation," "transportability" and "High market value in relation to volume and weight."  Its not so good on the bolded terms.  Its value is highly fluctuant and deflationary (which is never good for a currency as it means you hoard it to increase its value, spending it is for suckers, which is a hallmark of a commodity rather than a currency), it often requires effort to find places that will accept it, and doing so may require additional valuation bargaining (i.e. "ok i will give you $12.50 in bitcoins for this $10.00 item").  If you squint, at present it works pretty much like gold, if gold were digital.

This doesn't mean it couldn't become a currency - but i agree with Japan that it isn't there yet.

$12.50 for a $10 item, and it's also something to hoard? Wow, you've pegged it as both inflationary AND deflationary. That's an amazing mind you've got.

No he didn't. Think harder.


Alright, then: this aspect resembles more of an exchange rate hurdle than a strict definition of inflation. But as it grows in popularity that gap will naturally close. Fair enough?
 
2014-03-07 11:04:06 AM

Farking Canuck: President Raygun: So apparently this morning a third major exchange collasped and yet the price keeps going up. Someone help me understand how this bitcoin value keeps steady or even goes up when it's been stolen from three major "banks" in the last 3 months to the tune of billions of dollars. Honestly I don't get it.

It is confusing. Because we all know that regular money never gets stolen so why would anyone use bitcoin?


Has 7% of all the money in the world ever been stolen in one heist? That happened to Bitcoin. You might have heard about it. It was in all the papers.
 
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