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(Bugs & Cranks)   Catching up with Albert Belle, who should have won the 1995 AL MVP. Bonus: He says Miguel Cabrera is more valuable than Mike Trout and that rattlesnakes make great golf instructors   (bugsandcranks.com) divider line 13
    More: Amusing, Albert Belle, Mike Trout, MVP, Miguel Cabrera, al mvp, Peter Angelos, Jim Thome, Jerry Reinsdorf  
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709 clicks; posted to Sports » on 06 Mar 2014 at 1:45 PM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-06 03:20:32 PM
2 votes:
I didn't understand the debate then, and I don't understand bringing it up now.

Cabrera was deserving (no question in my mind).  He is a very good fielder at 1B and the best hitter in baseball I will likely see in my lifetime.

Is there really a debate about this?
2014-03-07 01:19:30 AM
1 votes:

MFAWG: DeWayne Mann: MFAWG: More than is what I mean to say.

Nope. Still didn't help.

Williams was less valuable as a player than DiMaggio or Snider because DiMaggio and Snider played on teams that won championships.

Is that difficult to grasp?


So you are saying that Jeff Hamilton is a more valuable player than Ted Williams? Sure his career OBP was 80 points below Ted WIlliam's Average and his OPS is less than William's Slugging percentage, but he was on a World Series winning team.
2014-03-07 12:49:37 AM
1 votes:

MFAWG: Really? So in your universe the only thing that matters is an individual players numbers?

Ladies and gentlemen, Barry Bonds is a Farker.


If you think Duke Snider was a more valuable player than Ted Williams, you are insane.
2014-03-06 06:45:56 PM
1 votes:

DeWayne Mann: Ok, too much to respond to, so I'm just gonna pose another question:

If a player's value depends on what his teammates did, and being on a playoff team matters, who was more valuable in 2013 (and why): James Loney or Mike Napoli.


False premise is false. A players value depends on what the as a whole did.
2014-03-06 06:13:59 PM
1 votes:
great_tigers:  It is dumb.

Glad we agree.

But so is saying that Trout does everything by himself and doesn't rely on help from his teammates.

You're missing the point.  The point is that Mike Trout is only responsible for what Mike Trout does.  If he hits like a slugger, takes his walks like a veteran, runs like a leadoff man, and plays excellent outfield defense, he's incredibly valuable.  Worrying about what his teammates are doing is a distraction from that.
2014-03-06 04:39:13 PM
1 votes:

chimp_ninja: bglove25: Well, at least someone recognizes that Albert got robbed in 95.  First player (maybe only) with 50 HR's and 50 2B's in a season and loses to Mo Vaughn (Mostly because Belle was an asshole and Vaughn was a nice media guy in Boston).  God damn that 95 teams was amazing... sigh.

By WAR (either bWAR or fWAR), it would either have been Randy Johnson (if you "allow" pitchers), or John Valentin.

Valentin had basically the same OBP as Belle, less power (37 2B, 27 HR, .533 slugging), but that year the various metrics suggest that he was the best defensive shortstop in baseball.  Plus he could run the bases (20 SB vs 5 CS, took the extra base 53% of the time).  In the meantime, Belle played one of the easiest positions on the field (LF), and he even played that badly.

It's not "most valuable hitter", and Belle and Vaughn were one-dimensional players who hurt their team whenever they weren't in the batter's box.  If Belle has gotten hurt, the Indians could replace him with Jeromy Burnitz or whoever, and the dropoff would be bad, but not crushing.    You can't say the same for a slick-fielding shortstop with a .399 OBP, wheels, and solid power.

(If anyone mentions RBI, keep in mind that Valentin was a #2 hitter who hit behind the immortal Lee Tinsley or a 36-year-old Willie McGee that year.  Belle hit #4 behind Vizquel/Lofton/Baerga.)


So, being the only player in history to go 50 HR and 50 2B's (in a 144 game season no less) is less important than 20 stolen bases (and completely discounts that that Indians team had a better base stealer- kenny lofton, and a much better defensive ss -Visquel). Belle's fielding average was .001 below the league average, but yeah, we was terrible in LF.   I mean, I think WAR is useful and all, but no. Just no.  The only reason an injured Belle doesn't destroy the Indians is that line-up was stacked.  But yeah, missing league leader in runs, doubles, HR's, RBI's, Slugging and total bases is totally just like losing a good defensive shortstop that gets on base and has decent power for the position.  Good argument.
2014-03-06 04:14:59 PM
1 votes:
Baseball writers have no interest in picking the best player. They look at counting stats until they find which player makes their dick hardest, then they invent the definition of "valuable" that year so their guy wins (note that they're not actually good at that last part, but whatever).
2014-03-06 03:46:10 PM
1 votes:
You can throw WAR out (I won't), I don't love the Angels, but it is way cool to see Mike Trout on the TV whenever I want cause he is that farking good.  I mean, you get to watch a guy like Trout, you stop and watch (and I love my Dodgers).

The worst argument in the last couple of years in favor of Miggie was the playoffs thing in Trout's rookie year when Miggie won the triple crown (very cool, by the way) despite the Angels winning more games than the Tigers did that year (a side effect of divisions).  There should be little doubt that Mike Trout has been the best player in the AL the last couple of years.  He has also been the best player in both leagues as well.  Mike Trout is freaking amazingly awesome, and he is going to be the best player of his generation.
2014-03-06 03:38:04 PM
1 votes:

great_tigers: So, if you're only going to be rewarded the MVP solely on individual efforts then no pitcher could ever win the award. Unless, of course he pitched to a two strike count and with no catcher had a pass ball. Then somehow got the runner out every time without the aid of other players (passed balls to every player, recovering the ball and tagging out each runner or beating the runner home on bases loaded with a recovered ball) and recorded every out for the entire season in this fashion.


This post is dumb and you should feel dumb.

kukukupo: He is a very good fielder at 1B and the best hitter in baseball I will likely see in my lifetime.


1) Miguel Cabrera is not "a very good fielder" at any position.

2A) Miguel Cabrera's best season (2013): 1.078 OPS, best in baseball.
2B) Albert Pujols averaged a 1.075 OPS for seven seasons from 2003 to 2009.

Memories are short.
2014-03-06 03:01:01 PM
1 votes:
So, if you're only going to be rewarded the MVP solely on individual efforts then no pitcher could ever win the award. Unless, of course he pitched to a two strike count and with no catcher had a pass ball. Then somehow got the runner out every time without the aid of other players (passed balls to every player, recovering the ball and tagging out each runner or beating the runner home on bases loaded with a recovered ball) and recorded every out for the entire season in this fashion.
Hitters would only be able to win the MVP by simply getting on base and stealing every base without a pitch being thrown to other batters. Either hit a home run or steal bases home. Also, he couldn't feasibly be a position player as he would be required to play every position 100 percent of the time. Including pitching, throwing the ball on a ground ball from the infield and catching it at first, playing all three outfield positions for pop fly's and all the while catching the pitch and running to the defensive positions in the field.THEN, only then could a player win an individual award without depending on what a player's teammates do.
2014-03-06 01:55:33 PM
1 votes:

DeWayne Mann: Too busy to actually get into this at the moment, but I'd still love it if someone can explain why an individual award should depend on what a player's teammates do.

I'll check back later.  Thanks


A great player's will to win rubs off on his teammates. You can't quantify heart or grit. Or scrappiness. That sandpaper quality that players like David Eckstein brought to the table is worth more than any rally-killing home run ever will be.
2014-03-06 01:53:48 PM
1 votes:
Joooooooooeeeeeeeyyyyy
2014-03-06 01:49:43 PM
1 votes:
Now this is a fark I haven't given in a loooooooong time.
 
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