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(Science Daily)   Chimpanzees and children show different expressions when faced with impossible problems, suggesting that either determination is a uniquely human trait, or monkeys have just gotten used to scientists screwing with them   (sciencedaily.com) divider line 35
    More: Interesting, psychologies, chimpanzees, grammatical aspect, scientists, University of Portsmouth, subconscious, monkeys, Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology  
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3417 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Mar 2014 at 1:47 PM (20 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



35 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-03-05 12:55:46 PM
I LOLed

+1
 
2014-03-05 01:48:59 PM
You used the 'M' word. Pray that the Librarian doesn't hear of it.
 
2014-03-05 01:54:29 PM
Do both fling poo when all else fails?.
 
2014-03-05 01:56:19 PM
I wonder when one of the monkeys will rewrite the program so it's no longer impossible
 
2014-03-05 01:56:53 PM
Children produced facial movements associated with effort and determination the more they tried to open the box, but the chimpanzees, although capable of making identical movements, did not. The chimpanzees did make facial expressions, but not in relation to how much effort they put into the task.


Hmmmm....sounds like the children are spoiled little shiats.
 
2014-03-05 01:57:47 PM
Are we gonna have a simian trifecta? I neeeeed one pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease

/I can has pic of a bonobo?
 
2014-03-05 01:58:34 PM

reillan: I wonder when one of the monkeys will rewrite the program so it's no longer impossible


Well, when one does, we'll have to give him a commendation for original thinking and command of a starship.
 
2014-03-05 01:58:58 PM
DNRTFA, however, that's Headline of the Year, so far.
 
2014-03-05 02:34:04 PM
The researchers showed 32 children aged three-six years old and, separately, 34 chimpanzees a transparent box containing a small toy for the children, or a piece of fruit for the chimpanzees. Both children and chimpanzees were shown how to open the box. Out of sight, the researchers then locked the box and placed it back within sight for two minutes.

Dr Bridget Waller, of the University of Portsmouth, said, "Let's be honest here.  This study has no scientific value whatsoever.  We just thought it was funny to fark with the kids and monkeys.  Sometimes, we'd finally unlock the box, and the monkey would find out it was just a piece of plastic fruit.  Haha!  Stupid monkeys".
 
2014-03-05 02:34:54 PM
I pray indeed that the Librarian does not hear of this use of the "M-word".
Also, no one who has ever lived with a cat believes that determination is a uniquely human trait.
 
2014-03-05 02:35:23 PM
Who was it that said "Publication is essential in science, otherwise you're just doing weird things to rats for kicks."?
 
2014-03-05 02:37:01 PM
I think I'll take a moment to be a pedantic a$$hole (Since otherwise the headline is absolutely top notch) and point out:

Ape, not monkey.  Monkey's have tails and Apes don't.

Definitely the best headline I've seen all year otherwise.
 
2014-03-05 02:42:47 PM
One of my favorite pics (this is a 6 yo!)

i60.tinypic.com
 
2014-03-05 02:48:06 PM

CrazedHatter: I think I'll take a moment to be a pedantic a$$hole (Since otherwise the headline is absolutely top notch) and point out:

Ape, not monkey.  Monkey's have tails and Apes don't.

Definitely the best headline I've seen all year otherwise.


All apes are monkeys, and the headline is nothing special. Otherwise, spot on.
 
2014-03-05 02:59:20 PM

2chris2: The researchers showed 32 children aged three-six years old and, separately, 34 chimpanzees a transparent box containing a small toy for the children, or a piece of fruit for the chimpanzees. Both children and chimpanzees were shown how to open the box. Out of sight, the researchers then locked the box and placed it back within sight for two minutes.

Dr Bridget Waller, of the University of Portsmouth, said, "Let's be honest here.  This study has no scientific value whatsoever.  We just thought it was funny to fark with the kids and monkeys.  Sometimes, we'd finally unlock the box, and the monkey would find out it was just a piece of plastic fruit.  Haha!  Stupid monkeys".


Being slightly torn and frayed from a hectic 48hrs, and veggin' out here waiting to go to an SRO out-the-door funeral home in a while, I dnrfa, a rarity.
My eyes lit up reading this and I raced to the link, hoping soooo hard that there would be SOMETHING of this order of frankness. Was a way cool article. And in my minds eye this paragraph is in it. It was the quotes that said come hither.

/ya kinda got me ;-)
//shoot, can't get the sillies
///Porky Chedwick
////u the (wo)man, subs
 
2014-03-05 03:02:51 PM

Splish: CrazedHatter: I think I'll take a moment to be a pedantic a$$hole (Since otherwise the headline is absolutely top notch) and point out:

Ape, not monkey.  Monkey's have tails and Apes don't.

Definitely the best headline I've seen all year otherwise.

All apes are monkeys, and the headline is nothing special. Otherwise, spot on.


img.fark.net
 
2014-03-05 03:03:22 PM
Chimps are just smart enough to know that whatever face you make, mom and dad aren't going to do their homework for them.
 
2014-03-05 03:17:23 PM
Evolution is a wonderful scientific paradigm.
 
2014-03-05 03:20:11 PM

Zarquon's Flat Tire: Who was it that said "Publication is essential in science, otherwise you're just doing weird things to rats for kicks."?


Bob Dylan.
 
2014-03-05 03:39:35 PM

dryknife: Zarquon's Flat Tire: Who was it that said "Publication is essential in science, otherwise you're just doing weird things to rats for kicks."?

Bob Dylan.


RAND PAUL!
 
2014-03-05 04:43:22 PM
maybe chimps recognize futility easier.  that or they are fine with contentment. basically, 'i cant fix it, move on' mentality.  mankind's relentless pursuit of the impossible can neither be viewed as a good or a bad thing.  the results of that pursuit have created arguably the best and worst things in mankind.
 
2014-03-05 04:47:12 PM
Don't chimps smile when they are warning you that you're asking for a face-eating? Humans don't do that, so why are we making any kind of educated determination when comparing primate expressions?
 
2014-03-05 04:47:56 PM

The Flexecutioner: mankind's relentless pursuit of the impossible can neither be viewed as a good or a bad thing.  the results of that pursuit have created arguably the best and worst things in mankind.


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -George Bernard Shaw
 
2014-03-05 05:01:35 PM

Mrs.Sharpier: Children produced facial movements associated with effort and determination the more they tried to open the box, but the chimpanzees, although capable of making identical movements, did not. The chimpanzees did make facial expressions, but not in relation to how much effort they put into the task.


Hmmmm....sounds like the children are spoiled little shiats.


Effort and determination are traits of spoiled little shiats?
 
2014-03-05 05:03:14 PM

The Flexecutioner: maybe chimps recognize futility easier.  that or they are fine with contentment. basically, 'i cant fix it, move on' mentality.  mankind's relentless pursuit of the impossible can neither be viewed as a good or a bad thing.  the results of that pursuit have created arguably the best and worst things in mankind.


No - they just don't have a facial expression showing determination.
 
2014-03-05 05:03:52 PM

Splish: CrazedHatter: I think I'll take a moment to be a pedantic a$$hole (Since otherwise the headline is absolutely top notch) and point out:

Ape, not monkey.  Monkey's have tails and Apes don't.

Definitely the best headline I've seen all year otherwise.

All apes are monkeys, and the headline is nothing special. Otherwise, spot on.


Please be trolling. I hope no one is this stupid.
 
2014-03-05 05:37:32 PM
Take a bow  subby.
 
2014-03-05 06:23:45 PM
The quiz to get into Heaven asks you if chimps are monkeys or apes.
 
2014-03-05 06:52:05 PM

The Flexecutioner: maybe chimps recognize futility easier.  that or they are fine with contentment. basically, 'i cant fix it, move on' mentality.  mankind's relentless pursuit of the impossible can neither be viewed as a good or a bad thing.  the results of that pursuit have created arguably the best and worst things in mankind.


Some of this..

Also, some of apples and oranges and stupid farking study.  Human's smile, a lot of animals can see that as an act of aggression, bearing the teeth...

We are different from them.  Some of that is due to culture/society.  You can see similar discrepancies from various places across the globe.  It may very well be that chimps raised amongst humans as one of them would display determination/concentration just as much( if in their own way due to muscular differences and such of course.)

You can see determination/concentration in a plethora of animals, more so in animals that are more social and able to be expressive in a way that we understand them.  Dogs, a LOT.  Cats, sometimes.  Birds, almost none at all aside from a head tilt. Ants?  Not so much.

I can't speak for chimps specifically, but other primates, sure.

Study is bad and should feel bad.
 
2014-03-05 07:12:20 PM
See, the study's authors suggested that we grimace to signal for help. But then they said this: "Chimpanzees produce similar movements in the bulging lip display used during bluff displays, but this doesn't seem to be produced when they are engaging with a difficult task as it is with humans."

Now I would be tempted to think it's the other way around here. When faced with an intellectual challenge, humans use the "bluff display" face because they're co-opting this universal behaviour (show of aggression) to help them with the particular behaviour (redouble efforts to think through a problem).

But IANABiologist, so I'll sit back down and be quiet.
 
2014-03-05 07:16:22 PM
I still haven't seen any pictures of kids vs. chimp facial expressions which I presume are behind the pay wall for the article.

But the supplementary material: http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/10/3/20130974/suppl/DC 1

links to this Youtube; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFFMliPLSPc
img.youtube.com
Electronic supplementary material by RoyalSocietyJournals
Uploaded on Mar 4, 2014
This video shows an example of self-directed behaviour (nosewipe). This research was published in the journal Biology Letters in the paper: Children, but not chimpanzees, have facial correlates of determination by B. M. Waller, A. Misch, J. Whitehouse and E. Herrmann.


It shows children and chimps "nose wiping". I have no idea what this has to do with the paper or facial expressions.
 
2014-03-05 09:38:15 PM

HairBolus: It shows children and chimps "nose wiping". I have no idea what this has to do with the paper or facial expressions.


It snot news.
 
2014-03-05 09:41:39 PM

meanmutton: The Flexecutioner: maybe chimps recognize futility easier.  that or they are fine with contentment. basically, 'i cant fix it, move on' mentality.  mankind's relentless pursuit of the impossible can neither be viewed as a good or a bad thing.  the results of that pursuit have created arguably the best and worst things in mankind.

No - they just don't have a facial expression showing determination.


an equally acceptable answer: No, we cant be certain that humans can recognize said expression (i.e. the intent of an outcome).  Basically, we need it to be similar for us to draw a conclusion, so therefore they aren't capable.

I agree, bad study is bad.  They concluded that many facial expressions weren't considered determination.  Why? How do they know? There is a particular amount of hubris in making these assumptions.  This isn't a bad thing in and of itself but it can lead to terrible conclusions.  But as an effort, at best it should only lead to better efforts.  Maybe it's a starting point but I hope that's what stuff like that can produce.
 
2014-03-06 05:56:50 AM

The Flexecutioner: meanmutton: The Flexecutioner: maybe chimps recognize futility easier.  that or they are fine with contentment. basically, 'i cant fix it, move on' mentality.  mankind's relentless pursuit of the impossible can neither be viewed as a good or a bad thing.  the results of that pursuit have created arguably the best and worst things in mankind.

No - they just don't have a facial expression showing determination.

an equally acceptable answer: No, we cant be certain that humans can recognize said expression (i.e. the intent of an outcome).  Basically, we need it to be similar for us to draw a conclusion, so therefore they aren't capable.

I agree, bad study is bad.  They concluded that many facial expressions weren't considered determination.  Why? How do they know? There is a particular amount of hubris in making these assumptions.  This isn't a bad thing in and of itself but it can lead to terrible conclusions.  But as an effort, at best it should only lead to better efforts.  Maybe it's a starting point but I hope that's what stuff like that can produce.


Well said.
 
2014-03-06 11:09:10 AM
Does Taco Bell count as an impossible problem worthy of a frustrated look of effort?

img.fark.net
 
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