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(The Japan News)   China increases defense budget another 12 percent, its fourth year of double-digit increases, for no good reason whatsoever   (the-japan-news.com) divider line 99
    More: Scary, china, National People's Congress, Great Hall of the People, Yasukuni Shrine, Senkaku Islands, NPC  
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368 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Mar 2014 at 10:16 AM (20 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-05 09:43:56 AM
Walmart profits?
 
2014-03-05 09:58:55 AM
Why is this scary? Have you SEEN our defense budget?
 
2014-03-05 10:19:29 AM
The same reason we do it. It is the easiest way to sell a jobs program.
 
2014-03-05 10:19:54 AM
And?
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2014-03-05 10:20:40 AM
OMG.. if B. Hussein 0bummer doesn't immediately triple our defense budget to deal with this threat to America then he should be impeached! I bet he wants to see fall to the Chinese so the Muslin Brotherhood can take over!
 
2014-03-05 10:21:23 AM
Depending on how inclusive you are of what constitutes defense spending, we spend somewhere between $600 billion and $1 trillion on national defense. That is probably the biggest reason why China is spending a metric farkton of money on their defense program.
 
2014-03-05 10:23:27 AM

DamnYankees: Why is this scary? Have you SEEN our defense budget?


Yeah, pretty much.

We spend more than China and the next twelve countries 'combined.'
 
2014-03-05 10:24:40 AM
Putting this in the "It's OK when we do it" file...
 
2014-03-05 10:27:25 AM
Maybe China is using defense spending to prop up their economy, like the US does.

Is it really different than building whole cities that nobody can afford to occupy?
 
2014-03-05 10:28:45 AM
The answer is US navy power.  The US can send one of its many carrier groups to express power anywhere on the globe, and that's threatening to China who is trying to unofficially claim the entire western pacific as it's economic zone.  The idea of being able to settle a territory/trade dispute by fiat is appealing to China.
 
2014-03-05 10:29:22 AM

HairBolus: Maybe China is using defense spending to prop up their economy, like the US does.

Is it really different than building whole cities that nobody can afford to occupy?


Well, a military has a use, even after it's built.  Our own military is proof of that.
 
2014-03-05 10:29:37 AM
We decease ours (or talk about it) and other increase theirs, it's how this works people.
 
2014-03-05 10:32:36 AM

RedTank: We decease ours (or talk about it) and other increase theirs, it's how this works people.


OMG! Instead of accounting for 57% of the total defense spending in the world, we're only going to account for 54%!
 
2014-03-05 10:34:15 AM

Infernalist: DamnYankees: Why is this scary? Have you SEEN our defense budget?

Yeah, pretty much.

We spend more than China and the next twelve countries 'combined.'


Six of those countries are members of NATO with us (UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, and Turkey), three of them are members of the Five Eyes intel alliance (Australia, UK, and Canada), and two fall in neither camp but are unambiguously American military allies (Japan and South Korea). Take those nine out and the advantage grows even further.
 
2014-03-05 10:35:22 AM
As their citizens become more aware to the scope of their ghost cities and other frivolous programs artificially boosting GDP, they are turning to something else they can throw money and people at with disregard where no one can challenge it for fear of being called unpatriotic.
 
2014-03-05 10:37:07 AM

grumpfuff: OMG! Instead of accounting for 57% of the total defense spending in the world, we're only going to account for 54%!


Pretty much.  When or if we lower ours 3% or whatever people shouldn't be surprised when x country (probably someone interested in being a bigger world power) increases theirs double digit percentages over multiple years.  But it still won't hold a candle to our wide and clear majority in overall military spending (for now).
 
2014-03-05 10:37:23 AM

RedTank: We decease ours (or talk about it) and other increase theirs, it's how this works people.


When do we even talk about it? The most we ever do is talk about maybe decreasing the second derivative.
 
2014-03-05 10:39:07 AM
am I the only person that sees WW III in the next 15 years?
 
2014-03-05 10:40:30 AM

Madewithrealbitsofpanther: talk about maybe decreasing the second derivative


Shut up you commie traitor!
 
2014-03-05 10:41:37 AM

bromah: am I the only person that sees WW III in the next 15 years?


No, lots of other people with no grasp on modern geopolitics probably do as well.
 
2014-03-05 10:41:50 AM

bromah: am I the only person that sees WW III in the next 15 years?


Years? Shiat, man, when Putin sent his troops to Crimea, I'm pretty sure the first thing out of my mouth to my coworkers was "Well, looks like we have World War III on our hands."
 
2014-03-05 10:43:11 AM
Fence removal can be pretty costly ya know...
 
2014-03-05 10:45:30 AM

Infernalist: We spend more than China and the next twelve countries 'combined.'


...and several of the larger ones in that list are US allies. At this rate, China's defense spending will overtake America's somewhere around the year 2520.
 
2014-03-05 10:45:47 AM

Serious Black: Years? Shiat, man, when Putin sent his troops to Crimea, I'm pretty sure the first thing out of my mouth to my coworkers was "Well, looks like we have World War III on our hands."


While it's possible that this could trigger WW3, technically, that's only going to happen if one of the major parties involved does something *really* stupid.

What's far more likely is a lot of drum beating before Russia gets what it wants, and then a streamlining of all the former soviet block countries getting officially welcomed into the EU and maybe NATO.

Could this be a PRECURSOR to another major conflict though? Sure.
 
2014-03-05 10:46:47 AM

Madewithrealbitsofpanther: When do we even talk about it? The most we ever do is talk about maybe decreasing the second derivative.


When a war ends spending decreases.  On average spending dollars has increased over the past 100 years with peaks and valleys (increases and decreases) but the percentage to GDP has been relatively stable and slightly decreasing.

But we don't really talk about lowering military spending to offset say healthcare costs or other "entitlement programs."
 
2014-03-05 10:47:11 AM

Dalrint: While it's possible that this could trigger WW3, technically, that's only going to happen if one of the major parties involved does something *really* stupid.


Not sure that a war between NATO and Russia would qualify as WW3.  Not like China is going to jump in at that one, they would likely laugh as we weaken each other.
 
2014-03-05 10:47:30 AM

Dalrint: Serious Black: Years? Shiat, man, when Putin sent his troops to Crimea, I'm pretty sure the first thing out of my mouth to my coworkers was "Well, looks like we have World War III on our hands."

While it's possible that this could trigger WW3, technically, that's only going to happen if one of the major parties involved does something *really* stupid.

What's far more likely is a lot of drum beating before Russia gets what it wants, and then a streamlining of all the former soviet block countries getting officially welcomed into the EU and maybe NATO.

Could this be a PRECURSOR to another major conflict though? Sure.


Our military-industrial complex is pretty well known for doing really stupid shiat.
 
2014-03-05 10:54:16 AM
Sibera. Delicious, nutritious Siberia.
Keep looking west, Putin.
 
2014-03-05 10:59:13 AM

demaL-demaL-yeH: Sibera. Delicious, nutritious Siberia.
Keep looking west, Putin.


LOL no shiat, right?

The saddest part of the Putin regime is that when they came into all that glorious NG money, they had a chance..a. real goddamned chance...to modernize their country and build/buy the tools and experience needed to dig into Siberia and get at the 'real' wealth that's laying there, waiting to be dug up.

Instead, they did the Russian thing and corruption ate all that money up.  Several men got stupidly rich and now that the NG money isn't coming in as fast as it did, what little infrastructure and military they have left is getting heavily neglected.

When China decides it needs Siberia, there's nothing Russia will be able to do about it, except maybe plead with the West to intercede on its behalf.  When that day comes, I hope the UN has enough grace and humanity about it to elect their Ukrainian counterpart as head of the committee to eventually investigate.
 
2014-03-05 10:59:47 AM

Serious Black: bromah: am I the only person that sees WW III in the next 15 years?

Years? Shiat, man, when Putin sent his troops to Crimea, I'm pretty sure the first thing out of my mouth to my coworkers was "Well, looks like we have World War III on our hands."


Every time China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, or some other major power does a power play (which happens every 1-3 years) it somehow means that WW3 is about to begin and people always seem to think it's the beginning of the end.  Because apparently there is some sort of race to be the first guy that calls it.

Maybe people like to mentally prepare for war... or like to be right, or say I told you so.  I don't really understand.

There is also this weird mental rational that WW3 will be
magnitudes worse than WW2.  Wars are like hype for moviesequels, they "disappoint" more often than not.
 
2014-03-05 11:04:36 AM

Serious Black: Our military-industrial complex is pretty well known for doing really stupid shiat.


Not really? Not on the big things. Historically we're quite good at the BIG things.

But regardless, you're assuming we're one of the major players in this, and we're not. At least not yet.  At the end of the day, it's Russia, the EU, and the Ukraine. While we are capable of influencing the situation, and if there was an actual war we would BECOME one of the major players simply because we would have to, right now it's not about us.

Our sanction power against Russia is minimal at best, that has to come from the EU against their natural gas imports, and our ability to defend the region is in question after the fiasco that was Iraq.

Frankly, a war in the Ukraine, assuming it didn't spiral into something world-spanning, might be good for the US, because against a classical foe like Russia it might give us a chance to prove that we still know what the hell we're doing.
 
2014-03-05 11:04:50 AM

bromah: am I the only person that sees WW III in the next 15 years?


It already did.  The world is a smoking ruin.  The computers are pumping a simulated reality into your cerebral cortex to hide the fact.
 
2014-03-05 11:06:04 AM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: bromah: am I the only person that sees WW III in the next 15 years?

It already did.  The world is a smoking ruin.  The computers are pumping a simulated reality into your cerebral cortex to hide the fact.


The end has never felt so good.  Ignorance is bliss.
 
2014-03-05 11:07:17 AM

ikanreed: The answer is US navy power.  The US can send one of its many carrier groups to express power anywhere on the globe, and that's threatening to China who is trying to unofficially claim the entire western pacific as it's economic zone.  The idea of being able to settle a territory/trade dispute by fiat is appealing to China.


This. China eventually wants a blue-water navy. They want power projection and trade route defense.
 
2014-03-05 11:07:21 AM
Let see...

 - China is swimming in cash and needs something to do with it
 - Military spending is a good jobs program
 - We spend an order of magnitude more

Yeah, I think we've covered all the bases. Well done, people, I think we can wrap up early on this one.
 
2014-03-05 11:08:56 AM
Does anyone know the quality of hardware the Chinese use?  We often read accounts of Chinese products being lower quality.  Does that extend to their military hardware as well?
 
2014-03-05 11:09:50 AM
Soo let me do the math.. yep US still spends more than the rest of the world combined on defense even after cuts and these increases are factored in..

Of course if we could get congress to stop the special pet project BS and let the military focus on the items they feel they need we might be money ahead by a long shot.. but instead we have congressmen preserving programs for planes and other procurement items because its made in their backyard and they don't want to kill those jobs, and then these items are just shipped to boneyards from the factory because they aren't needed or wanted

IMHO we need a law that prevents congress from overly specifying how department funding is spent. It should just be as simple as "Congress Approves DoD to spend 10 Billion on Plane Procurement" ect, ect so that we can squash these petty build for no reason projects full of waste.
 
2014-03-05 11:10:22 AM

verbaltoxin: ikanreed: The answer is US navy power.  The US can send one of its many carrier groups to express power anywhere on the globe, and that's threatening to China who is trying to unofficially claim the entire western pacific as it's economic zone.  The idea of being able to settle a territory/trade dispute by fiat is appealing to China.

This. China eventually wants a blue-water navy. They want power projection and trade route defense.


When they start doing 'that', then people can safely freak out a little.

Of course, that's many years away, exponentially so if they want to build a navy to rival the US Navy.

And all of this is based on the crazy assumption that the US won't increase its own expenditures and efforts to stay years ahead of the Chinese when it comes to naval assets.
 
2014-03-05 11:11:05 AM

RedTank: Serious Black: bromah: am I the only person that sees WW III in the next 15 years?

Years? Shiat, man, when Putin sent his troops to Crimea, I'm pretty sure the first thing out of my mouth to my coworkers was "Well, looks like we have World War III on our hands."

Every time China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, or some other major power does a power play (which happens every 1-3 years) it somehow means that WW3 is about to begin and people always seem to think it's the beginning of the end.  Because apparently there is some sort of race to be the first guy that calls it.

Maybe people like to mentally prepare for war... or like to be right, or say I told you so.  I don't really understand.

There is also this weird mental rational that WW3 will bemagnitudes worse than WW2.  Wars are like hype for moviesequels, they "disappoint" more often than not.


I think I'm one of the more anti-war people on Fark. I don't want us to plunge into another war anytime soon (or hopefully ever again). I simply think WWIII is going to happen because we have a lot of people in America who make money off of bloodshed. Just look at what happened when the Army said "Hey, guys, we have more than enough Abrams tanks to go around, we don't need you to build any more." Congress mandated they build even more Abrams! Or look at what happened when the Pentagon said "The one engine works well enough, we don't need you to build the second engine for the F-35 Raptor." Congress mandated they build the second engine!
 
2014-03-05 11:12:38 AM

RedTank: Serious Black: bromah: am I the only person that sees WW III in the next 15 years?

Years? Shiat, man, when Putin sent his troops to Crimea, I'm pretty sure the first thing out of my mouth to my coworkers was "Well, looks like we have World War III on our hands."

Every time China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, or some other major power does a power play (which happens every 1-3 years) it somehow means that WW3 is about to begin and people always seem to think it's the beginning of the end.  Because apparently there is some sort of race to be the first guy that calls it.

Maybe people like to mentally prepare for war... or like to be right, or say I told you so.  I don't really understand.

There is also this weird mental rational that WW3 will bemagnitudes worse than WW2.  Wars are like hype for moviesequels, they "disappoint" more often than not.


Considering that some of the players involved have nuclear weapons and are completely batshiat insane, it's not much of a stretch to assume that a third world war would in fact be quite a bit worse than the last two.  I'm not talking a full nuclear exchange between superpower A and superpower B, but even a limited exchange in certain areas of the world could easily result in hundreds of millions of deaths right off the bat, plus decades of the rest of us having to de-con our food and water because it glows in the dark.
 
2014-03-05 11:13:02 AM

Gergesa: Does anyone know the quality of hardware the Chinese use?  We often read accounts of Chinese products being lower quality.  Does that extend to their military hardware as well?


As I understand, ammunition manufactured in China is frequently found to contain lead.
 
2014-03-05 11:15:30 AM

Gergesa: Does anyone know the quality of hardware the Chinese use?  We often read accounts of Chinese products being lower quality.  Does that extend to their military hardware as well?


Most Chinese don't buy the cheap shiat that is shipped to the US. They understand that buying a pair of $100 boots will save you more money than buying a $20 pair so they look for high quality goods when buying, not the lowest price. They can't afford by buy six pairs of $20 boots so they buy one $100 pair. They can't afford to buy a new butcher knife every year so they invest in one which will, with care, last the rest of their life.

There's no reason to believe that China will equip their military with the cheap shiat they sell to other nations when they can easily afford to equip them with the good stuff.
 
2014-03-05 11:17:39 AM
Or maybe they've built all the ghost towns they want to build and have to find something for 1/3rd of the worlds population to do.
 
2014-03-05 11:18:12 AM

Gergesa: Does anyone know the quality of hardware the Chinese use?  We often read accounts of Chinese products being lower quality.  Does that extend to their military hardware as well?


Mostly Soviet-issue and retro-engineered domestic gear. They're developing their own fifth-gen fighter platforms, the J-20 and J-31. The Liaoning is their first commissioned aircraft carrier. She was a stripped down hulk bought from the Soviets in the 80s. They commissioned her in 2012.
 
2014-03-05 11:18:59 AM
Judging by the quality of crap that China puts out, I am not worried.  China is backwards, uncultured, stunted and hive-minded but they aren't stupid.  They aren't going to war with Russia and they sure as hell aren't going to war with us.  If they are militarizing, it has more to do with India than anyone else.
 
2014-03-05 11:20:46 AM

Gergesa: Does anyone know the quality of hardware the Chinese use?  We often read accounts of Chinese products being lower quality.  Does that extend to their military hardware as well?


When it comes to their armies, it's slap-dash stuff.  They have to supply close to 100 million people in that army, so quality doesn't come first or second or even third.

Their navy, on the other hand, is a labor of love.  They don't have the assets that we do, so each ship has obscenely expensive amounts of hardware brought in from overseas or reverse engineered from other sources.  And unlike their armies, they're far more cautious with their navy assets.  Men can be replaced, even thousands of men, but each naval vessel is worth hundreds of millions of dollars and are not easily replaced.

So they're up to snuff, if that's what you're asking, but the Chinese are very very very careful with how they use those vessels.
 
2014-03-05 11:23:08 AM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Most Chinese don't buy the cheap shiat that is shipped to the US. They understand that buying a pair of $100 boots will save you more money than buying a $20 pair so they look for high quality goods when buying, not the lowest price. They can't afford by buy six pairs of $20 boots so they buy one $100 pair. They can't afford to buy a new butcher knife every year so they invest in one which will, with care, last the rest of their life.

There's no reason to believe that China will equip their military with the cheap shiat they sell to other nations when they can easily afford to equip them with the good stuff.


I'd like to know where you're getting this, when the Chinese consumption rate is growing. There's a reason Buick is doing well for GM these days.
 
2014-03-05 11:28:34 AM

Serious Black: I think I'm one of the more anti-war people on Fark. I don't want us to plunge into another war anytime soon (or hopefully ever again). I simply think WWIII is going to happen because we have a lot of people in America who make money off of bloodshed. Just look at what happened when the Army said "Hey, guys, we have more than enough Abrams tanks to go around, we don't need you to build any more." Congress mandated they build even more Abrams! Or look at what happened when the Pentagon said "The one engine works well enough, we don't need you to build the second engine for the F-35 Raptor." Congress mandated they build the second engine!


We do have a lot of people that make money off war in this country but that doesn't mean that because we invest in the infrastructure and arms that we will be more or less likely to use them.  All it means is that other countries view us and feel like they don't have leverage against us in worldly decisions and access to opportunities.  There is a balance of power and it's important to let it change very slowly.

We should spend less on military expenditures but if we cut out spending in half today, what do you think China and Russia would do?  They would spend more to fill that power vacuum which would lead to escalation.  If we cut our military spending in half over say 200 years then the power vacuum would be slowly filled and countries would have stronger bonds of trust making escalation purely in that context very unlikely.

Congressmen come and go, as long as there are people that consistently fight against spending then it will slowly draw down over the years.  But if there is another war for whatever reason then that all starts over.

Granted these are just a few variables in the equation.
 
2014-03-05 11:29:13 AM

Thank You Black Jesus!: Judging by the quality of crap that China puts out, I am not worried.  China is backwards, uncultured, stunted and hive-minded but they aren't stupid.  They aren't going to war with Russia and they sure as hell aren't going to war with us.  If they are militarizing, it has more to do with India than anyone else.


I'd think Japan would be their first stop. They have unhappy feeling from way back. I know we have a defense treaty but I really don't see us jumping into that. Especially if we can get drawn into the Ukraine
 
2014-03-05 11:30:37 AM
And yet it is still small, compared to the US.
 
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