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(The Raw Story)   Here's a job you should really only take if all the janitorial positions at your local adult bookstore are already filed: MtGox, which recently lost $340 million of depositor's Bitcoins, opens a call center to field customer complaints   (rawstory.com) divider line 253
    More: Fail, bitcoins, customer complaint, deposits  
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3439 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Mar 2014 at 12:45 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-04 01:59:41 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: It's fun to watch you people continue to live in fantasyland.


Which part is the fantasy, copying a file onto a USB stick?
 
2014-03-04 02:01:28 PM  

LasersHurt: ikanreed: LasersHurt: ikanreed: Belias: hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"

Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?

So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.

That would be smart of hypothetical him.  Unless the backup was more exposed to theft.  Then that'd be bad.  The point I'm trying to make is that he's assuming the technical risks for himself, rather than making them vanish.  And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

Which is why more companies are putting stronger systems in place. I prefer to keep mine offline and deal with it myself, but it's absolutely trivial to make a secure backup. You protect the key as well - the chances of "theft" are exceedingly low.

It's not perfect. If that's your takeaway, so be it.


Same here with dealing with it offline. I actually back my wallet up in Minecraft, using a redstone powered solid state storage structure, and that minecraft world is then backed up regularly to a VM with a truecrypt partition, which is then copied to a sd card that I store in my phone.

People should take security more seriously.
 
2014-03-04 02:02:10 PM  

LesserEvil: rumpelstiltskin: So how was the problem of colluding nodes chasing down the block chain solved? Or did you all just agree that isn't a problem?

I think the term you are looking for is "colliding" - and I believe other exchanges aren't suffering from this issue. MtGox might have been the victim of an insider, or the victim of an automated protocol that didn't check.

I'm not going to say their are/won't be issues with BTC in the future. Some newer cryptos are trying to solve some of the networking issues, but major theft that exploits a vulnerability in transactions shouldn't happen before somebody notices.


No, the word I'm looking for is the word I used- colluding.
http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243

I know there has been a lot of foot stamping by the bitcoin community. But if there has been anything right in what they say, it's being drowned out by the believers. As far as I know today, the math is sound.
So tell me, is the math unsound? Has someone found a flaw in Eyal's reasoning?
 
2014-03-04 02:02:46 PM  
I'll be honest...I am completely uneducated regarding bitcoins. Can somebody explain, in layman's terms, what bitcoins are, what they're for, and why I'd want to use them as opposed to using US dollars? What are the benefits/drawbacks?
 
2014-03-04 02:03:39 PM  

Slackfumasta: LasersHurt: ikanreed: LasersHurt: So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.

That would be smart of hypothetical him.  Unless the backup was more exposed to theft.  Then that'd be bad.  The point I'm trying to make is that he's assuming the technical risks for himself, rather than making them vanish.  And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

Which is why more companies are putting stronger systems in place. I prefer to keep mine offline and deal with it myself, but it's absolutely trivial to make a secure backup. You protect the key as well - the chances of "theft" are exceedingly low.

It's not perfect. If that's your takeaway, so be it.

Same here with dealing with it offline. I actually back my wallet up in Minecraft, using a redstone powered solid state storage structure, and that minecraft world is then backed up regularly to a VM with a truecrypt partition, which is then copied to a sd card that I store in my phone.

People should take security more seriously.


If it's not in your anus, it's not security.
 
2014-03-04 02:03:49 PM  
I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.
 
2014-03-04 02:09:27 PM  

The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.


You can use bitcoin in a variety of online stores, like Overstock.com, TigerDirect, or others. More start accepting every day. You can also turn Bitcoin into Amazon Giftcards, or USD, and buy whatever else you want.

Bitcoin is the exception, not the rule. In most of your life you'd use your local fiat currency. But it's growing in acceptance, and provides a novel means of exchange that some people like. The low transaction fees can save many merchants money.
 
2014-03-04 02:09:29 PM  

The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.


Apparently, if I understand the believers correctly, you can pretty much only buy "virtual" items. Well, maybe sometimes actual items (if the sites aren't down) or maybe trade with another Bitcoin enthusiast. But, apart from that, I don't think they have any real-world application. In any case, with the bitcoin "value" fluctuating so wildly, I'm not sure if it's even possible to buy tangible items (let alone agree on a price at any given moment). Apart from that, you'll be spending your days (like the folks in their mom's basements) on the computer securing your wallet, doing crypto-stuff, and basically being a nerd.
 
2014-03-04 02:10:35 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.

Apparently, if I understand the believers correctly, you can pretty much only buy "virtual" items. Well, maybe sometimes actual items (if the sites aren't down) or maybe trade with another Bitcoin enthusiast. But, apart from that, I don't think they have any real-world application. In any case, with the bitcoin "value" fluctuating so wildly, I'm not sure if it's even possible to buy tangible items (let alone agree on a price at any given moment). Apart from that, you'll be spending your days (like the folks in their mom's basements) on the computer securing your wallet, doing crypto-stuff, and basically being a nerd.


LasersHurt: You can use bitcoin in a variety of online stores, like Overstock.com, TigerDirect, or others. More start accepting every day. You can also turn Bitcoin into Amazon Giftcards, or USD, and buy whatever else you want.


Additionally, small business are accepting crypto currencies in some cases because transaction fees are lower than credit cards.
 
2014-03-04 02:13:23 PM  
Aside from the fact that it is an investment vehicle first and foremost, and holds no real benefits as an actual currency...

Bitcoiners, answer me this: I was told that because of the trail of transactions on bitcoins that they essentially cannot disappear - that the trail makes them more real in that regard.

If you had them at a foreign bank and the bank says "nope, these coins are all mine now" or a hacker comes in and moves the bitcoins away, why is there is no recovery option?

If the answer is that there is nobody to look at your appeal/complaint/etc and agree that the bitcoin is in fact yours and not someone else's, then what is the benefit to the trail?  Essentially any bank that holds bitcoins for you is operating completely on your trust that they won't screw you. That requires far more trust than I will ever have for banks using government issued currency and backed by the FDIC.

So I guess what I'm saying is it is a little bit hillarious that bitcoins seem to be most popular among those who dislike the zomg-fiat aspect of the U.S. Dollar.  Every complaint about the dollar seems magnified with the bitcoin, not minimized.  Hell, take the madoff references earlier.  Had bernie been playing with bitcoins the whole time, NOBODY would have gotten any of their money back. I'm not even sure there they could have put him in prison for his scheme had he been operating with bitcoins.

karmaceutical: I like the argument that this actually helps the bitcoin market, since there are less in circulation.  Now who wants step right up and bet the farm on unicorn farts?


Yea, marketplace money interviewed some bitcoin enthusiasts last week speaking about how great this failure is, because they now believe it won't happen again and we can REALLY get down to some real bitcoin business. Even if they were right and not just the second round of losers in this game (or maybe they get lucky and end up winners), that still leaves them as pretty much the most glaring example of fark-You-I've-Got-Mine around. These people don't want a safer currency that is superior to the dollar at all.
 
2014-03-04 02:16:24 PM  

Smackledorfer: These people don't want a safer currency that is superior to the dollar at all.


There are absolutely different groups in the Bitcoin arena. Some want it to be a currency, some are clearly trading it like some sort of commodity or trying to play Investor. Some are ultra-libertarians, and that's the "fark you I got mine" crowd right there.

There is a core group of "srs business" Bitcoiners who welcome sensible oversight and regulation precisely FOR the legitimacy it gives, but it's not clear who will be the dominant voice long term. Hopefully not the loons.
 
2014-03-04 02:16:46 PM  

ikanreed: And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.


This should be repeated.

LasersHurt: provides a novel means of exchange that some people like.


If your best argument is that it is nifty, then it is probably garbage.
 
2014-03-04 02:18:24 PM  

LasersHurt: The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.

You can use bitcoin in a variety of online stores, like Overstock.com, TigerDirect, or others. More start accepting every day. You can also turn Bitcoin into Amazon Giftcards, or USD, and buy whatever else you want.

Bitcoin is the exception, not the rule. In most of your life you'd use your local fiat currency. But it's growing in acceptance, and provides a novel means of exchange that some people like. The low transaction fees can save many merchants money.


Why would I want to use a different currency at overstock when they take dollars, which I already have and everyone takes online and in real life?

I admittedly know absolutely nothing about this bit coin stuff, but it really really seems like itchy and scratchy money to me.

I have two children under four. I have time for one hobby, and it's home brewing. "Novel currency" feels like an unnecessary hassle when normal money serves my "buying things" needs perfectly.
 
2014-03-04 02:19:59 PM  

LasersHurt: There is a core group of "srs business" Bitcoiners who welcome sensible oversight and regulation precisely FOR the legitimacy it gives, but it's not clear who will be the dominant voice long term. Hopefully not the loons.


And when the non-loons win and it becomes stable, overseen, regulated, and by extension acknowledged as having value by international governments, what purpose remains to the currency?

Once you add in the regulation and security, how does operating with bitcoins become better than a debit (and before you say anyone can rip off your debit account upon use, nobody is forcing anyone to keep their life-savings in the same account they buy a hamburger from mcdonald's with, and we can buy gift-cards or use one-time-use card numbers for transactions already).
 
2014-03-04 02:20:49 PM  

Magorn: Chagrin: Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?

These were my first two thoughts when I heard of the Mt Gox theft:
When that news hit the wire, I would SO not want to be the bright young cartel member or mob soldier who convinced my boss to stash the family's profits in Bitcoins because they were so safe an untraceable.  and then following on the heels of that, the idea that these people are not noted for their forgiving and generous natures, and that whoever DID make off with those had better be goddamn sure they can trust their laundering/fencing operation



Bitcoin is the literal opposite of untraceable.  The ledger of where the coins have been since Day 0 is distributed throughout.

Sometimes I think bitcoin was some government's invention as a massive sting operation.
 
2014-03-04 02:20:57 PM  
Seems like unless I think I'm going to make money from the investment side of the bitcoin, all I get for my trouble is a waste of my time (and time is money).
 
2014-03-04 02:21:39 PM  

Smackledorfer: ikanreed: And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

This should be repeated.

LasersHurt: provides a novel means of exchange that some people like.

If your best argument is that it is nifty, then it is probably garbage.


It's one thing I said, not anyone's best argument for anything. If you don't like it, then, you know, don't get involved.

The Homer Tax: Why would I want to use a different currency at overstock when they take dollars, which I already have and everyone takes online and in real life?


I don't know or care why you would use what you use, you asked what you can do with it. I told you.

The Homer Tax: I admittedly know absolutely nothing about this bit coin stuff


Mm-Hmm.

The Homer Tax: I have two children under four. I have time for one hobby, and it's home brewing. "Novel currency" feels like an unnecessary hassle when normal money serves my "buying things" needs perfectly.


Okay? Perfectly reasonable. The only reason I know what I do is that I got into Mining as a hobby, and in a month that hobby netted me 200 USD. Take it as serious currency or not, I don't care, but what it IS is amusing to me and makes a fun hobby.
 
2014-03-04 02:23:50 PM  

TheDirtyNacho: Magorn: Chagrin: Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?

These were my first two thoughts when I heard of the Mt Gox theft:
When that news hit the wire, I would SO not want to be the bright young cartel member or mob soldier who convinced my boss to stash the family's profits in Bitcoins because they were so safe an untraceable.  and then following on the heels of that, the idea that these people are not noted for their forgiving and generous natures, and that whoever DID make off with those had better be goddamn sure they can trust their laundering/fencing operation

Bitcoin is the literal opposite of untraceable.  The ledger of where the coins have been since Day 0 is distributed throughout.


Then how do they get "lost" or "stolen"?
 
2014-03-04 02:24:07 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: There is a core group of "srs business" Bitcoiners who welcome sensible oversight and regulation precisely FOR the legitimacy it gives, but it's not clear who will be the dominant voice long term. Hopefully not the loons.

And when the non-loons win and it becomes stable, overseen, regulated, and by extension acknowledged as having value by international governments, what purpose remains to the currency?

Once you add in the regulation and security, how does operating with bitcoins become better than a debit (and before you say anyone can rip off your debit account upon use, nobody is forcing anyone to keep their life-savings in the same account they buy a hamburger from mcdonald's with, and we can buy gift-cards or use one-time-use card numbers for transactions already).


It's still open-source and open-ledger, unlike current currency. It's also fast and cheaper to transfer. I have no idea if it will become "the" currency, or die out. I think CryptoCurrency as an idea, however, has a lot of merit because it takes the power out of any central hands entirely and provides an exchange mechanism that is transparent and cheap.

I think some people are imagining a world of Bitcoin in the next year, and that's obviously not going to happen. The majority of your life and purchases will remain your local currency for some time, I bet.
 
2014-03-04 02:24:45 PM  
This whole story almost sounds like it came out of EVE
 
2014-03-04 02:25:13 PM  

jst3p: TheDirtyNacho: Magorn: Chagrin: Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?

These were my first two thoughts when I heard of the Mt Gox theft:
When that news hit the wire, I would SO not want to be the bright young cartel member or mob soldier who convinced my boss to stash the family's profits in Bitcoins because they were so safe an untraceable.  and then following on the heels of that, the idea that these people are not noted for their forgiving and generous natures, and that whoever DID make off with those had better be goddamn sure they can trust their laundering/fencing operation

Bitcoin is the literal opposite of untraceable.  The ledger of where the coins have been since Day 0 is distributed throughout.

Then how do they get "lost" or "stolen"?


Gross Negligence by a crappy exchange which is probably lying through its teeth about what happened to the coins.

Those curious have tracked all of their transactions and located the wallets; it's about who has control of the Private Key, if anyone.
 
2014-03-04 02:25:15 PM  

TheDirtyNacho: Bitcoin is the literal opposite of untraceable.


Then MTGox can get their money back, and/or the rest of the world can declare stolen bitcoins in the system to be used fraudulently, right?  Because if my dollar bill says "property of TheDirtyNacho, subsequently stolen by Smackledorfer and spent on the black market" and I can still spend it just like it said "legitimately owned by Smackle" then where is the benefit of the tracking (besides preventing people from creating new bitcoins from thin air without mining, of course).
 
2014-03-04 02:26:12 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.

Apparently, if I understand the believers correctly, you can pretty much only buy "virtual" items. Well, maybe sometimes actual items (if the sites aren't down) or maybe trade with another Bitcoin enthusiast. But, apart from that, I don't think they have any real-world application. In any case, with the bitcoin "value" fluctuating so wildly, I'm not sure if it's even possible to buy tangible items (let alone agree on a price at any given moment). Apart from that, you'll be spending your days (like the folks in their mom's basements) on the computer securing your wallet, doing crypto-stuff, and basically being a nerd.


This is the first explanation that has ever made sense to me. It's a hobby for needs who like money and computer security.

My hobby is a hobby for nerds who like beer. I could just buy beer, but find entertainment in making my own. This is the first time bit coins has ever made sense to me.
 
2014-03-04 02:26:21 PM  

LasersHurt: Okay? Perfectly reasonable. The only reason I know what I do is that I got into Mining as a hobby, and in a month that hobby netted me 200 USD. Take it as serious currency or not, I don't care, but what it IS is amusing to me and makes a fun hobby.


So...in addition to this being like some sort of novel game, you have to "mine" it? You can't just "work" for it? And by "mining" it sounds like you really mean farking around on the computer all day playing games.
 
2014-03-04 02:27:02 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: LesserEvil: rumpelstiltskin: So how was the problem of colluding nodes chasing down the block chain solved? Or did you all just agree that isn't a problem?

I think the term you are looking for is "colliding" - and I believe other exchanges aren't suffering from this issue. MtGox might have been the victim of an insider, or the victim of an automated protocol that didn't check.

I'm not going to say their are/won't be issues with BTC in the future. Some newer cryptos are trying to solve some of the networking issues, but major theft that exploits a vulnerability in transactions shouldn't happen before somebody notices.

No, the word I'm looking for is the word I used- colluding.
http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243

I know there has been a lot of foot stamping by the bitcoin community. But if there has been anything right in what they say, it's being drowned out by the believers. As far as I know today, the math is sound.
So tell me, is the math unsound? Has someone found a flaw in Eyal's reasoning?


Dunno, but the exchanges are filled with speculators (i.e. "day traders"). As I stated, I'm not invested in it and have a vague understanding (which is still much clearer than most of the haters here) of the math and algorithms behind cryptocurrencies.

Ultimately, BTC isn't really worse than stocks and bonds. I find it odd that so many people have an irrational hatred of cryptocurrency, as if BTC broke into their houses and pissed on their cornflakes every morning for the last year. To me, it seems like these people have an inferiority complex, and they are compensating by trying to find a group of people - people who use bitcoin - and telling them "your coins are worthless (and so are you because you believe in fantasyland, so I'm much better than you!)"

I'm just trying to strike a balance here in the discussion. There is a lot of misunderstanding and honestly, most of the haters seem to come off as irrational jerks who clearly do not understand anything about the thing they are critical of (much like the geniuses on both sides who spend too much time in the politics tab)
 
2014-03-04 02:28:05 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: LasersHurt: Okay? Perfectly reasonable. The only reason I know what I do is that I got into Mining as a hobby, and in a month that hobby netted me 200 USD. Take it as serious currency or not, I don't care, but what it IS is amusing to me and makes a fun hobby.

So...in addition to this being like some sort of novel game, you have to "mine" it? You can't just "work" for it? And by "mining" it sounds like you really mean farking around on the computer all day playing games.


"Mining" is the "work" that you do, which is searching for cryptographic sequences and verifying network work. You don't have to mine it, you can buy it. Though admittedly I don't see a need to go buying it in most cases, unless you're gambling on a price rise.

It would be nice to have a Crypto based on more useful work, and some are in development (linked to Folding At Home, etc).
 
2014-03-04 02:28:52 PM  

LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: ikanreed: And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

This should be repeated.

LasersHurt: provides a novel means of exchange that some people like.

If your best argument is that it is nifty, then it is probably garbage.

It's one thing I said, not anyone's best argument for anything. If you don't like it, then, you know, don't get involved.

The Homer Tax: Why would I want to use a different currency at overstock when they take dollars, which I already have and everyone takes online and in real life?

I don't know or care why you would use what you use, you asked what you can do with it. I told you.

The Homer Tax: I admittedly know absolutely nothing about this bit coin stuff

Mm-Hmm.

The Homer Tax: I have two children under four. I have time for one hobby, and it's home brewing. "Novel currency" feels like an unnecessary hassle when normal money serves my "buying things" needs perfectly.

Okay? Perfectly reasonable. The only reason I know what I do is that I got into Mining as a hobby, and in a month that hobby netted me 200 USD. Take it as serious currency or not, I don't care, but what it IS is amusing to me and makes a fun hobby.


What's "mining?"
 
2014-03-04 02:30:10 PM  

Chameleon: Debeo Summa Credo: But why does the "productive power and financial potential" of a country give any more value to a fiat currency? If nobody will accept my $20 bill, how do I trade it in for $20 worth of GDP? If i bring it to down to the treasury will Jacob Lew give me some steel and wheat? How much steel and wheat?

Yeah, but the same can be said for gold, silver, shiny beads, giant stone coins, etc.  No currency has any value beyond what you can trade it for.  That's why I started my petition to back the US dollar with potatoes.

/yes, I know that gold has use in electronics but that is not traditionally what its value is based on.  Its value is based on "ooh, shiny!"



Gold's a pretty good currency for an agrarian civilization.  It's rare, but not too rare as to be impractical to mine.  It's too soft to be usable as a building material unlike stone or iron so you don't have to worry about currency depletion in that manner.  And it looks nice to boot.

Beads made of similarly rare material perform a likewise function.  Gold probably won out because its more moldable into various artifacts.  Literally hammering your money onto something to give it recognizable value.

Outside of an agrarian society it stops making sense though.
 
2014-03-04 02:30:49 PM  

LasersHurt: It's one thing I said, not anyone's best argument for anything. If you don't like it, then, you know, don't get involved.


Maybe I am misreading your complaint, but welcome to fark?

If you don't want people to respond to you, don't post. You made public arguments defending Bitcoin, and didn't expect people to respond on the public forum?

Maybe you should just walk into your bathroom and talk to the mirror. Then you can hear any response you want.

How about this, if there is a real advantage besides it being novel, why don't you say so? I'm not telling you that I know for sure it does not. I am saying I don't know of any advantage that it does have.

LasersHurt: It's also fast and cheaper to transfer


Except you want regulation and security in bitcoins, because you aren't one of the loons.  At which point it won't be any faster or cheaper than anything currently available.
 
2014-03-04 02:32:34 PM  

LasersHurt: And when the non-loons win and it becomes stable, overseen, regulated, and by extension acknowledged as having value by international governments, what purpose remains to the currency?


It's still open-source and open-ledger, unlike current currency. It's also fast and cheaper to transfer.


Those oversights (insurance) cost money, which is where those transaction fees bitcoiners don't want to pay go to. So it won't be cheaper. And it isn't faster.
 
2014-03-04 02:33:10 PM  

The Homer Tax: What's "mining?"


Mining is now New Bitcoins - or other cryptocurrencies - are created. The process is controlled to allow a very specific growth pattern in Bitcoin supply, allowing the value to regulate like a currency should.

Mining itself is essentially making computers do a ton of math to find "blocks" - parts of the Bitcoin Blockchain, which is the central record. Bitcoin mining today has been overrun by "ASICs" - chips meant to specifically mine. Many Alternative Cryptocurrencies use math that is easily done on GPUs.

I mine by building computers with powerful GPUs and mining alternative currencies, based on exchange rate with Bitcoin.
 
2014-03-04 02:34:59 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: It's one thing I said, not anyone's best argument for anything. If you don't like it, then, you know, don't get involved.

Maybe I am misreading your complaint, but welcome to fark?

If you don't want people to respond to you, don't post. You made public arguments defending Bitcoin, and didn't expect people to respond on the public forum?

Maybe you should just walk into your bathroom and talk to the mirror. Then you can hear any response you want.

How about this, if there is a real advantage besides it being novel, why don't you say so? I'm not telling you that I know for sure it does not. I am saying I don't know of any advantage that it does have.

LasersHurt: It's also fast and cheaper to transfer

Except you want regulation and security in bitcoins, because you aren't one of the loons.  At which point it won't be any faster or cheaper than anything currently available.


Your only argument to me was snark; I snarked back. Your response makes me think that you're pretty clearly the one over-reacting.

Your last sentence is meaningless. I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance. All you do is assume it will be the same cost, because... you assume so.
 
2014-03-04 02:35:01 PM  

LasersHurt: "Mining" is the "work" that you do, which is searching for cryptographic sequences and verifying network work.


Yes, I love this part too. In order to achieve scarcity and add some semblance of value to Bitcoins, we first have spend real world resources like electricity to create them. I know, resources are spent to create paper currency and mint coins, but unless bitcoins do something significant that the dollar cannot (and I still don't see what that is) then that is a lot of waste for nothing.
 
2014-03-04 02:36:39 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: hardinparamedic: Debeo Summa Credo: Not that I buy into or understand bitcoins, but what does it mean to you to have a currency "backed by the GDP of a country"?

Because it's not just a piece of paper backed by a finite resource such as Gold. IANAE, but the production power and financhial potential of a first world country seems a little more safer a bet than a barter commodity who's only value is what the community itsself places on it, and which encourages hoarding due to it's numerical cap.

But yeah. I'm still going to point and laugh.

But why does the "productive power and financial potential" of a country give any more value to a fiat currency? If nobody will accept my $20 bill, how do I trade it in for $20 worth of GDP? If i bring it to down to the treasury will Jacob Lew give me some steel and wheat? How much steel and wheat?

I think we both view bitcoins as a "bigger idiot theory" type alternative currency. The only thing that gives them value is the demand of other idiots for them.

But conceptually, the dollar is not dissimilar. It's just that there are alot more "idiots" out there who use dollars and have been using dollars for a very very long time. Therefore we can be much more confident that there will always be a fellow idiot to which to trade our intrinsically worthless dollars to for tangible goods.

The only thing IMO that gives dollar bills a floor value is that the US government can require tax payments to be made in dollars. So by requiring tax payments in these worthless pieces of paper, the government can actually force people to need them, giving them a non-zero value.


The dollar has vast reams of laws, and courts, and international treaties, and other legal resources ensuring that no shenanigans ensue in its valuation. To trust BitCoin to have some sort of stable value, you have to trust the claims of anonymous people on the Internet. FFS, how stupid do you have to be to do that?
 
2014-03-04 02:37:44 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: "Mining" is the "work" that you do, which is searching for cryptographic sequences and verifying network work.

Yes, I love this part too. In order to achieve scarcity and add some semblance of value to Bitcoins, we first have spend real world resources like electricity to create them. I know, resources are spent to create paper currency and mint coins, but unless bitcoins do something significant that the dollar cannot (and I still don't see what that is) then that is a lot of waste for nothing.


That is one of the main complaints - people are searching for a way to make useful work a part of the process. It's starting with things like Folding@Home or BOINC.
 
2014-03-04 02:39:06 PM  
Incoming gov regulations in..

3
2
1

Yeah yeah, the Internet used to be wide open too.
 
2014-03-04 02:42:09 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: How the fark do you lose a virtual currency?  I don't understand that.  I can understand how someone can steal you cash or gold, but this?


The harddrive crashed
 
2014-03-04 02:42:45 PM  

LasersHurt: Your only argument to me was snark; I snarked back. Your response makes me think that you're pretty clearly the one over-reacting.

Your last sentence is meaningless. I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance. All you do is assume it will be the same cost, because... you assume so.



Now you are just projecting.

You are the one making assertions, not me. I'm openly admitting there is the possibility I am wrong and bitcoin could add something legitimately beneficial as an additional currency.  At the same time, I'm pointing out that I don't see those benefits, and asking you what they are.

Your entire argument thus far is baseless, and you seem to get pissy when anyone asks you to support them.

Finally, it wasn't snark. I was dead serious. If you cannot justify bitcoins beyond how novel they are, that is fine.  But if that is all you have, why whiteknight bitcoin like you are doing? They aren't going to fill a moneybin and let you swim in them.

Just say "hey I think they are neato" and be done with it.
 
2014-03-04 02:43:40 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: And when the non-loons win and it becomes stable, overseen, regulated, and by extension acknowledged as having value by international governments, what purpose remains to the currency?


It's still open-source and open-ledger, unlike current currency. It's also fast and cheaper to transfer.

Those oversights (insurance) cost money, which is where those transaction fees bitcoiners don't want to pay go to. So it won't be cheaper. And it isn't faster.


LasersHurt: I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance.


I have an account at CoinBase, a US based exchange. I don't store anything there because I want to remain in control of my wallet, but the exchange has its own fees which it uses for security.

Transferring bitcoin wallet to bitcoin wallet is the low-fee part and won't be changing. I believe they may be lowering it further.
 
2014-03-04 02:44:06 PM  

LasersHurt: Your last sentence is meaningless. I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance. All you do is assume it will be the same cost, because... you assume so.


Credit card transaction fees are like 3%. 1% of that I get back. How large do you think these fees are?
 
2014-03-04 02:44:23 PM  

Smackledorfer: Now you are just projecting.


Wow alright man thanks for playing.
 
2014-03-04 02:45:05 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: Your last sentence is meaningless. I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance. All you do is assume it will be the same cost, because... you assume so.

Credit card transaction fees are like 3%. 1% of that I get back. How large do you think these fees are?


How large do you think Bitcoin transaction fees are? Do you think they are percentage based?
 
2014-03-04 02:46:16 PM  
And just to repeat: I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I have yet to see a single bitcoin supporter, including you right here and now, explain what makes bitcoins better, in any way, than

Yes, some businesses take them. I might be inclined to as well if I ran a business and had a potential customer base that liked playing with novel fake money. That isn't the business taking the currency because it is better, it is the business taking the currency to increase market share. That is more akin to advertising in a "hey lets get these guys to buy from us instead of our competition" manner.
 
2014-03-04 02:47:32 PM  

LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: Now you are just projecting.

Wow alright man thanks for playing.


If I say something is good, I can tell you why.  If you cannot do the same, you've got nothing and you know it.
 
2014-03-04 02:47:49 PM  

Smackledorfer: And just to repeat: I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I have yet to see a single bitcoin supporter, including you right here and now, explain what makes bitcoins better, in any way, than

Yes, some businesses take them. I might be inclined to as well if I ran a business and had a potential customer base that liked playing with novel fake money. That isn't the business taking the currency because it is better, it is the business taking the currency to increase market share. That is more akin to advertising in a "hey lets get these guys to buy from us instead of our competition" manner.


You are literally just ignoring what everyone says, or diagreeing as if your opinion were fact. The thread is filled with information on Bitcoin, and if it weren't, you could look it up. You're pretending you're being reasonable, but you and I and everyone else knows you're going out of your way to ignore what you hear because your mind is made up.
 
2014-03-04 02:48:25 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: Now you are just projecting.

Wow alright man thanks for playing.

If I say something is good, I can tell you why.  If you cannot do the same, you've got nothing and you know it.


I told you several things, you just chose to ignore them. That's not the same.
 
2014-03-04 02:49:53 PM  

Smackledorfer: I am saying I don't know of any advantage that it does have.



It is anonymous and decentralized. There's the example of the Cypriots above as well, though that doesn't play for people in the US.

I think it's a facinating experiment and hope it succeeds in becoming mature without any government oversite. That is kind of it's whole point.
 
2014-03-04 02:57:36 PM  

mdeesnuts: It is anonymous and decentralized


Which does what for me? I'm not trying troll here, I'm honestly trying to figure out why this is an advantage.

mdeesnuts: I think it's a facinating experiment and hope it succeeds in becoming mature without any government oversite. That is kind of it's whole point.


Not so. LasersHurt says he wants regulation and security. You aren't going to get that without government of some kind (and yes, government, with all the pros and cons of a "real" government, can exist without a bordered state).

LasersHurt: diagreeing as if your opinion were fact.


The only supported advantage you have mentioned in this entire thread is transaction fees, and that is only an advantage over credit cards. I mentioned there are other ways of making fast online transactions without using a credit card, which you completely ignored.  On top of that, you yourself mentioned people buying amazon gift cards with bit coins.  Wow, awesome, I can spend my US Dollars on Bitcoins, and then use the bitcoins to buy the amazon gift card, that way I can do what? Take advantage of the cheap transaction fees and "faster" transaction speed pros of the bitcoin?
 
2014-03-04 02:58:28 PM  

Smackledorfer: The only supported advantage you have mentioned in this entire thread is transaction fees, and that is only an advantage over credit cards.


Do you know ANYTHING?
 
2014-03-04 03:02:14 PM  

LesserEvil: Again, people who do not understand cryptos seem to think they can speak about it.


Dummy: I understand crypography just damned fine.  I was alleging the basic skills necessary to "protect yourself" are out of the grasp of the majority of people making the currency doomed to continually face scenarios like this one or shrink down to the core believers.
 
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