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(The Raw Story)   Here's a job you should really only take if all the janitorial positions at your local adult bookstore are already filed: MtGox, which recently lost $340 million of depositor's Bitcoins, opens a call center to field customer complaints   (rawstory.com) divider line 253
    More: Fail, bitcoins, customer complaint, deposits  
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3429 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Mar 2014 at 12:45 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



253 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-03-04 12:46:47 PM  
But, hey. BitCoins are no different than any other Fiat Currency*, right?


*except for the fact that modern currencies are backed by the GNP of a country.
 
2014-03-04 12:48:07 PM  
Script for Call Center Employees:


"SUCKERS"
 
2014-03-04 12:48:35 PM  
Mt. Gox customer service, can I help you? Oh, you bought BitCoins and figured we'd be as safe as a real bank for your savings? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! G'bye, dumbass! ::click::

Mt. Gox customer service, can I help you?
 
2014-03-04 12:48:39 PM  
F*cking owned.
 
2014-03-04 12:48:44 PM  
Mocking people who lost their money trading bitcoins sounds like fun. And I could practice my Indian accent. "I am being Rupert from Des Moines. Dez Moyns. How may I be of assist to you today?"
 
2014-03-04 12:49:08 PM  
Nah, it's cool, the call center employees get paid in BitCoins.
 
2014-03-04 12:49:22 PM  

hardinparamedic: But, hey. BitCoins are no different than any other Fiat Currency*, right?


*except for the fact that modern currencies are backed by the GNP of a country.


Good thing Bernie Madoff 's customers had their deposits denominated in USD, so they magically got all their money back, right?  Blame the company, not the currency.
 
2014-03-04 12:50:15 PM  

hardinparamedic: But, hey. BitCoins are no different than any other Fiat Currency*, right?


*except for the fact that modern currencies are backed by the GNP of a country.


Not that I buy into or understand bitcoins, but what does it mean to you to have a currency "backed by the GDP of a country"?
 
2014-03-04 12:50:34 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: Mocking people who lost their money trading bitcoins sounds like fun. And I could practice my Indian accent. "I am being Rupert from Des Moines. Dez Moyns. How may I be of assist to you today?"


blogs.suntimes.com

THANK YOU FOR CALLING MtGOX. THIS IS PEGGY! HOW CAN I BE HELPING YOU?
 
2014-03-04 12:51:27 PM  

Belias: hardinparamedic: But, hey. BitCoins are no different than any other Fiat Currency*, right?


*except for the fact that modern currencies are backed by the GNP of a country.

Good thing Bernie Madoff 's customers had their deposits denominated in USD, so they magically got all their money back, right?  Blame the company, not the currency.


If they were actual deposits they would have.  That's why on every investment fund ad they carefully state "NOT FEDERALLY INSURED.  MAY LOSE VALUE."
 
2014-03-04 12:51:28 PM  
How the fark do you lose a virtual currency?  I don't understand that.  I can understand how someone can steal you cash or gold, but this?
 
2014-03-04 12:52:57 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Not that I buy into or understand bitcoins, but what does it mean to you to have a currency "backed by the GDP of a country"?


Because it's not just a piece of paper backed by a finite resource such as Gold. IANAE, but the production power and financhial potential of a first world country seems a little more safer a bet than a barter commodity who's only value is what the community itsself places on it, and which encourages hoarding due to it's numerical cap.

But yeah. I'm still going to point and laugh.
 
2014-03-04 12:53:46 PM  
I wonder how many drug traffickers and child pornographers will be caught by this sting.
 
2014-03-04 12:54:09 PM  
Yeah, employment office? You can have my jizz-mop when you pry it from my cold head hands on this one.
 
2014-03-04 12:54:36 PM  
Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?
 
2014-03-04 12:54:50 PM  
Oh yes, I see the bitcoins in your account right here... aaannnd they're gone!
 
2014-03-04 12:55:11 PM  
This whole situation just gets more and more amusing. I love it.
 
2014-03-04 12:55:14 PM  

Chagrin: Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?


Argh. Illegal drug trade.
 
2014-03-04 12:55:38 PM  
Everyone, please just keep in mind that Bitcoins and MtGox are two different things, and that you're probably using the tulip mania reference all wrong.
 
2014-03-04 12:55:58 PM  

ArkPanda: Belias: hardinparamedic: But, hey. BitCoins are no different than any other Fiat Currency*, right?


*except for the fact that modern currencies are backed by the GNP of a country.

Good thing Bernie Madoff 's customers had their deposits denominated in USD, so they magically got all their money back, right?  Blame the company, not the currency.

If they were actual deposits they would have.  That's why on every investment fund ad they carefully state "NOT FEDERALLY INSURED.  MAY LOSE VALUE."


I believe you mean to say "if they were federally insured". They were not, and thus they did not get their money back.

Conflating MtGox's incompetence with the currency itself is disingenuous.  Their customers lost Bitcon and dollars.  Are those lost dollars "backed by the GNP of a country"? No.
 
2014-03-04 12:56:10 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: How the fark do you lose a virtual currency?  I don't understand that.  I can understand how someone can steal you cash or gold, but this?


There are numbers inside computers that are your bitcoin - literally.

The thieves broke into the (poorly secured) vault and stole all the numbers (Bitcoins).

Think of your favorite heist movie, but instead everyone has laptops and looks like Boris from Goldeneye.

The mistake individuals made was trusting a third party with the storage of what was essentially just numbers, when in practicality there was no need too.
 
2014-03-04 12:57:00 PM  
Shiatcoin
 
2014-03-04 12:57:06 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: How the fark do you lose a virtual currency?  I don't understand that.  I can understand how someone can steal you cash or gold, but this?


There was a flaw I the banking software that gave hackers the ability to resubmit prior approved transactions, basically paying twice on one transaction. Or more than twice.
 
2014-03-04 12:57:14 PM  
Sometimes I prefer going to the call center in person. The equipment there quite often comes in handy. But the important thing is to be precise and clear when you converse with the call center employee in person.

berichtenuithetverleden.files.wordpress.com

Give me the farking money, You hear me? You hear me, I gotta come here and you bust my balls? Give me the farking money.
 
2014-03-04 12:58:04 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: How the fark do you lose a virtual currency?  I don't understand that.  I can understand how someone can steal you cash or gold, but this?


They held more virtual currency than the money the currency was worth is how I understand the situation. Suddenly, a lot of that currency "vanished" (read: Ended up in someone else's wallet), and now the bank didn't have funds to pay the virtual currency holders who suddenly wanted to dump their investment and pull their money out in usable national currencies.
 
2014-03-04 12:58:41 PM  
What about people that lost all their magic cards?  At least those had some use.
 
2014-03-04 12:59:51 PM  
Okay, so this is what happens when a lot of people start trusting Magic:The Gathering traders with real money.

(MTGOX = Magic The Gathering Online eXchange).

Bunch of nerds with not enough security.
 
2014-03-04 01:00:08 PM  
img.fark.net
I have recently taken an interest in online banking.
 
2014-03-04 01:00:18 PM  

OldRod: Oh yes, I see the bitcoins in your account right here... aaannnd they're gone!


cdn.meme.li
 
2014-03-04 01:02:05 PM  

Belias: Good thing Bernie Madoff 's customers had their deposits denominated in USD, so they magically got all their money back, right? Blame the company, not the currency.


Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?
 
2014-03-04 01:02:32 PM  

hardinparamedic: Debeo Summa Credo: Not that I buy into or understand bitcoins, but what does it mean to you to have a currency "backed by the GDP of a country"?

Because it's not just a piece of paper backed by a finite resource such as Gold. IANAE, but the production power and financhial potential of a first world country seems a little more safer a bet than a barter commodity who's only value is what the community itsself places on it, and which encourages hoarding due to it's numerical cap.

But yeah. I'm still going to point and laugh.


But why does the "productive power and financial potential" of a country give any more value to a fiat currency? If nobody will accept my $20 bill, how do I trade it in for $20 worth of GDP? If i bring it to down to the treasury will Jacob Lew give me some steel and wheat? How much steel and wheat?

I think we both view bitcoins as a "bigger idiot theory" type alternative currency. The only thing that gives them value is the demand of other idiots for them.

But conceptually, the dollar is not dissimilar. It's just that there are alot more "idiots" out there who use dollars and have been using dollars for a very very long time. Therefore we can be much more confident that there will always be a fellow idiot to which to trade our intrinsically worthless dollars to for tangible goods.

The only thing IMO that gives dollar bills a floor value is that the US government can require tax payments to be made in dollars. So by requiring tax payments in these worthless pieces of paper, the government can actually force people to need them, giving them a non-zero value.
 
2014-03-04 01:02:35 PM  
Second bitcoin site bites the dust.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101463888
 
2014-03-04 01:04:03 PM  
Leaked picture of a phone rep at the call center:

i148.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-04 01:04:39 PM  
"Lost" is an interesting choice of words, Subby.
 
2014-03-04 01:04:51 PM  
Is it a coincidence that these thefts began right after Zynga announced it would accept Bitcoins for their games?

Follow the Cheetos and Mountain Dew.
 
2014-03-04 01:04:57 PM  
I assume the customer service reps will be paid in something that has actual value; you know, like Dogecoins.
 
2014-03-04 01:05:16 PM  
What's more worrying is that it appears MtGox was also hacked and if you've done the "verification process" with them, your information is now out in the wild.

To be blunt there's a lot of good opportunities here for smart people to make some honest money.  One of the big problems I always had with MtGox was that it took an old-world view on a very new, very alien technology.
 
2014-03-04 01:06:15 PM  

DrKillPatient: Second bitcoin site bites the dust.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101463888


"But that one was tiny.  It's doesn't count."
"What about Mt Gox?"
"Mount gox is just one site, it doesn't represent a trend!!!"
"What about other major exchanges having smaller breakins"
"BITCOINS ARE FOREVER LALALALALA, JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT SAFE IN REALITY DOESN'T MEAN THE THEORY IS BAD"
 
2014-03-04 01:06:51 PM  
omgobama.files.wordpress.com

I like money.
 
2014-03-04 01:06:58 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: hardinparamedic: Debeo Summa Credo: Not that I buy into or understand bitcoins, but what does it mean to you to have a currency "backed by the GDP of a country"?

Because it's not just a piece of paper backed by a finite resource such as Gold. IANAE, but the production power and financhial potential of a first world country seems a little more safer a bet than a barter commodity who's only value is what the community itsself places on it, and which encourages hoarding due to it's numerical cap.

But yeah. I'm still going to point and laugh.

But why does the "productive power and financial potential" of a country give any more value to a fiat currency? If nobody will accept my $20 bill, how do I trade it in for $20 worth of GDP? If i bring it to down to the treasury will Jacob Lew give me some steel and wheat? How much steel and wheat?

I think we both view bitcoins as a "bigger idiot theory" type alternative currency. The only thing that gives them value is the demand of other idiots for them.

But conceptually, the dollar is not dissimilar. It's just that there are alot more "idiots" out there who use dollars and have been using dollars for a very very long time. Therefore we can be much more confident that there will always be a fellow idiot to which to trade our intrinsically worthless dollars to for tangible goods.

The only thing IMO that gives dollar bills a floor value is that the US government can require tax payments to be made in dollars. So by requiring tax payments in these worthless pieces of paper, the government can actually force people to need them, giving them a non-zero value.


Yeah but the U.S. Gov't only accepts USD for taxes. That alone is enough to give the currency value. That's much more than what BitCoin has going for it.
 
2014-03-04 01:07:30 PM  
Does it tie things together a bit to mention that the heist may have been perpetrated by a government agency? They could discredit competing currency, steal from people supporting it and use the stolen currency for clandestine operations.

Hell, they could have used the proceeds from the first bitcoin theft to buy zero days exploits to pull this one off. Now they've got a self funding continuous attack with far less hard work and without exposing any security weaknesses a three letter agency already knows about.

Agencies that can create Stuxnet or Uroburos could certainly manage this. Wealthy private organizations like the Fed might see value in it too.
 
2014-03-04 01:08:23 PM  
Hah, maybe I should have finished reading your post...
 
2014-03-04 01:08:28 PM  

John the Magnificent: Script for Call Center Employees:


"SUCKERS"


Yeah, actually this would be a pretty easy job. Unlike a job for instance explaining to customers why the cable company screwed them, or telling people why their house got repossessed by the bank with one payment left, why the television they bought blew up and no the extended warranty isn't valid for this - times when you actually have sympathy and a little hatred of your company. This is like telling people that their lotto tickets didn't win.
 
2014-03-04 01:08:38 PM  

Belias: Blame the company, not the currency.


No. It's correct to blame what you call "currency".
 
2014-03-04 01:08:55 PM  

hardinparamedic: But, hey. BitCoins are no different than any other Fiat Currency*, right?


*except for the fact that modern currencies are backed by the GNP of a country.


Well in fairness, Citi DID just announce that its Mexican subsidiary Banamerica  was just scammed out of $400 million too, and it too is also being investigated for money laundering, so while Bitcoins are stupid for a lot of reasons, Mt Gox looks no more sleazy or amateurish than the big boys
 
2014-03-04 01:09:59 PM  
I still do not understand the situation, even after the explanations here. I think I am a prime bitcoin user.
 
2014-03-04 01:11:35 PM  

Magorn: Well in fairness, Citi DID just announce that its Mexican subsidiary Banamerica was just scammed out of $400 million too, and it too is also being investigated for money laundering, so while Bitcoins are stupid for a lot of reasons, Mt Gox looks no more sleazy or amateurish than the big boys


BankOfAmerica: Son, why are you doing this?
BitCoin: YOU, ALRIGHT! I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU!

www.quickmeme.com
 
2014-03-04 01:13:28 PM  

Chagrin: Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?


These were my first two thoughts when I heard of the Mt Gox theft:
When that news hit the wire, I would SO not want to be the bright young cartel member or mob soldier who convinced my boss to stash the family's profits in Bitcoins because they were so safe an untraceable.  and then following on the heels of that, the idea that these people are not noted for their forgiving and generous natures, and that whoever DID make off with those had better be goddamn sure they can trust their laundering/fencing operation
 
2014-03-04 01:14:09 PM  
What they need is a MtGox federal exchange. Then they could just program in more bitcoins.
 
2014-03-04 01:14:33 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: Mocking people who lost their money trading bitcoins sounds like fun. And I could practice my Indian accent. "I am being Rupert from Des Moines. Dez Moyns. How may I be of assist to you today?"


"Thank you for being on hold."
 
2014-03-04 01:14:37 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: How the fark do you lose a virtual currency?  I don't understand that.  I can understand how someone can steal you cash or gold, but this?


Someone threw a torn up chaos orb allover over their servers.

I still can't get over the fact that people actually trusted a bank named after Magic with anything resembling money.
 
2014-03-04 01:16:26 PM  
Fark Headline: "MtGox, which recently lost $340 million of depositor's Bitcoins"

Article Headline: "MtGox opens call center after $500 million Bitcoin loss"

ChipNASA: Shiatcoin


Heh, maybe we can redo their logo to represent the name change:

members.accountantsofficeonline.com

Oh, wait...
 
2014-03-04 01:16:44 PM  

spamalope: Does it tie things together a bit to mention that the heist may have been perpetrated by a government agency? They could discredit competing currency, steal from people supporting it and use the stolen currency for clandestine operations.

Hell, they could have used the proceeds from the first bitcoin theft to buy zero days exploits to pull this one off. Now they've got a self funding continuous attack with far less hard work and without exposing any security weaknesses a three letter agency already knows about.

Agencies that can create Stuxnet or Uroburos could certainly manage this. Wealthy private organizations like the Fed might see value in it too.


Well, it beats the hell out of selling missiles to the Iranians or letting mercenaries sell  cocaine to inner city gangs as a way to finance the "Black Budget"
 
2014-03-04 01:16:52 PM  

ArkPanda: That's why on every investment fund ad they carefully state "NOT FEDERALLY INSURED.  MAY LOSE VALUE."


Popular trick in Oregon among local TV station ad editors is to "stomp" the disclaimer end of an Oregon Lottery ad on the end of a financial services commercial. "Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only, not for investment purposes."
 
2014-03-04 01:17:31 PM  

Msol: Debeo Summa Credo: hardinparamedic: Debeo Summa Credo: Not that I buy into or understand bitcoins, but what does it mean to you to have a currency "backed by the GDP of a country"?

Because it's not just a piece of paper backed by a finite resource such as Gold. IANAE, but the production power and financhial potential of a first world country seems a little more safer a bet than a barter commodity who's only value is what the community itsself places on it, and which encourages hoarding due to it's numerical cap.

But yeah. I'm still going to point and laugh.

But why does the "productive power and financial potential" of a country give any more value to a fiat currency? If nobody will accept my $20 bill, how do I trade it in for $20 worth of GDP? If i bring it to down to the treasury will Jacob Lew give me some steel and wheat? How much steel and wheat?

I think we both view bitcoins as a "bigger idiot theory" type alternative currency. The only thing that gives them value is the demand of other idiots for them.

But conceptually, the dollar is not dissimilar. It's just that there are alot more "idiots" out there who use dollars and have been using dollars for a very very long time. Therefore we can be much more confident that there will always be a fellow idiot to which to trade our intrinsically worthless dollars to for tangible goods.

The only thing IMO that gives dollar bills a floor value is that the US government can require tax payments to be made in dollars. So by requiring tax payments in these worthless pieces of paper, the government can actually force people to need them, giving them a non-zero value.

Yeah but the U.S. Gov't only accepts USD for taxes. That alone is enough to give the currency value. That's much more than what BitCoin has going for it.


...Did you read his post?
 
2014-03-04 01:18:17 PM  

spamalope: Does it tie things together a bit to mention that the heist may have been perpetrated by a government agency? They could discredit competing currency, steal from people supporting it and use the stolen currency for clandestine operations.

Hell, they could have used the proceeds from the first bitcoin theft to buy zero days exploits to pull this one off. Now they've got a self funding continuous attack with far less hard work and without exposing any security weaknesses a three letter agency already knows about.

Agencies that can create Stuxnet or Uroburos could certainly manage this. Wealthy private organizations like the Fed might see value in it too.


The sign of a great con is when the mark is absolutely convinced someone else is at fault.
 
2014-03-04 01:18:49 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: But why does the "productive power and financial potential" of a country give any more value to a fiat currency? If nobody will accept my $20 bill, how do I trade it in for $20 worth of GDP? If i bring it to down to the treasury will Jacob Lew give me some steel and wheat? How much steel and wheat?


Yeah, but the same can be said for gold, silver, shiny beads, giant stone coins, etc.  No currency has any value beyond what you can trade it for.  That's why I started my petition to back the US dollar with potatoes.

/yes, I know that gold has use in electronics but that is not traditionally what its value is based on.  Its value is based on "ooh, shiny!"
 
2014-03-04 01:18:49 PM  

poot_rootbeer: I wonder how many drug traffickers and child pornographers will be caught by this sting.


Chagrin: Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?


"Bitcoin" is no more "involved" with the drug trade than "email" is.
 
2014-03-04 01:19:38 PM  
3 years in a call center got me PTSD so no thanks. OK, slight exaggeration, only one hell of an anxiety disorder.
 
2014-03-04 01:21:38 PM  
Call center for Mt. Gox, no problem, respond to EVERY caller with this... "Awwww, you're imaginary money went missing.... too bad..." then hang up.
 
2014-03-04 01:21:48 PM  

nijika: Everyone, please just keep in mind that Bitcoins and MtGox are two different things, and that you're probably using the tulip mania reference all wrong.


Tulip mania? Did you say tulip? Where are they and how can I get some?! Show me!! SHOW ME THE TULIPS!!!!
 
2014-03-04 01:22:42 PM  
I'm sure the mafia and the yakuza will be calling.
 
2014-03-04 01:23:10 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: The only thing IMO that gives dollar bills a floor value is that the US government can require tax payments to be made in dollars. So by requiring tax payments in these worthless pieces of paper, the government can actually force people to need them, giving them a non-zero value.


Given that dollar bills are legal tender for debts, and there is a lot of money-owing going on in America, I think it's more than just the fact I have to pay taxes in dollars that gives a dollar a "value". The value of a dollar is more than a mass delusion. It's tied to property rights that are defined and enforced by the government.
Of course, for the libertarian-minded, that means fark-all, as property rights are rights of man and not things governments have anything to say about. But rational people, we know we aren't going to wake up one day and find no one believes in our dollars anymore.
 
2014-03-04 01:23:18 PM  

hardinparamedic: Belias: Good thing Bernie Madoff 's customers had their deposits denominated in USD, so they magically got all their money back, right? Blame the company, not the currency.

Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?


That is true. Your bank is not going to call you and tell you that. Your bank is not going to call you.
 
2014-03-04 01:25:15 PM  
I nver worked in a call center, but once when the radio statin I worked for changed formats I was working the "complaint line" with a couple others. I was swore at for months, it is part of what helped me to hate a lot of people. I think the worst thing I was called was a racist.
 
2014-03-04 01:26:13 PM  

hardinparamedic: rumpelstiltskin: Mocking people who lost their money trading bitcoins sounds like fun. And I could practice my Indian accent. "I am being Rupert from Des Moines. Dez Moyns. How may I be of assist to you today?"

[blogs.suntimes.com image 850x478]

THANK YOU FOR CALLING MtGOX. THIS IS PEGGY! HOW CAN I BE HELPING YOU?


I swear if I ever have to work in a call center again, I am going to convince everyone on the floor to say their name is Peggy and speak in that accent.

Just for the lulz.

Once used a Kermit the Frog voice for few inbound tech support calls.  Manager caught me doing the in-bred hillbilly voice so that got stopped short.

For those who work in call centers, the other thing to do is pick a stupid word of the day.  This would be a word that should have NO BUSINESS being spoken during your call but you have to find a way to do so.  Bonus points for creativity.  Now the word does not have to be profane or vulgar.  Just inappropriate.  Like "Watermelon", "Aardvark", "Disco" or "Pantyhose" in a inbound technical support call center.

/mind is wandering today
//let's go ride bikes
 
2014-03-04 01:26:16 PM  
hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"
 
2014-03-04 01:28:17 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: Belias: Blame the company, not the currency.

No. It's correct to blame what you call "currency".


So, for the millions in US dollars that were also lost due to MtGox's incompetence, we should blame... the US dollar?
 
2014-03-04 01:28:23 PM  

Belias: I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement. By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"


I'll be impressed when you start flashing around ten grand wads of US dollars from your bitcoins.
 
2014-03-04 01:28:51 PM  
Give your real monies to THIS guy for ones & zeroes?
graphics8.nytimes.com

Yeah. He looks legit.
 
2014-03-04 01:28:59 PM  

Belias: hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"


Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?
 
2014-03-04 01:30:34 PM  

ikanreed: Belias: hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"

Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?


So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.
 
2014-03-04 01:30:55 PM  
Sure.... it's "lost"

;)
 
2014-03-04 01:31:55 PM  
Bitcoin has been rising steadily, even today, on news that another online wallet was robbed (This time only about $615,000 worth).

The lessons:

* Some people are ignorant as hell and confuse MtGox with Bitcoin.
* Some people absolutely hate cryptocurrency without understanding what it is, or why it has value
* The money was stolen from MtGox because they did not provide proper security measures.
* Exchanges and online wallets are only as secure as the passwords used to secure them AND the security measures used to protect the data. This isn't a failing of Bitcoin, which can (and should) be kept in a personal wallet, rather than trusting an online exchange with it.
* Bitcoin isn't just for criminals. Many legitimate vendors accept bitcoin, like TigerDirect. In places like Cyprus and Greece, it is more secure than keeping your money in a bank, where the government regularly dips into people's accounts to line their own pockets.
* Bitcoin's value doesn't go up and down in wild swings. It isn't as stable as the US dollar, to be sure... and as difficulty in mining goes up, so will the value. but it's not like it's losing half its value overnight. MtGox's exchange rates were rigged at the end to try and devalue BTC, and it didn't work.

I can always count on a lot of herp-a-derp in these threads from the farkers who seem to really, really hate bitcoin with a passion, though they've had no experience with it, and for no real reason than their own unsubstantiated opinion that BTC is valueless. Clearly they are wrong - people exchange BTC for cash and services all the time now.

As for the criminal element - sure, there's the Silk Road nonsense, but that is only a part of it, and realistically, no more a part of it than what cash is to crime. That is to say... criminals will take advantage of any system they can. Is your money any safer in a debit account that you used to make a charge at Target last Christmas? We've also seen how effective the Silk Road was in not getting caught...
 
2014-03-04 01:32:42 PM  
Why is it that the people who call others "true believers" seem to have the least knowledge of the subject matter? Hmm.
 
2014-03-04 01:33:04 PM  

LasersHurt: ikanreed: Belias: hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"

Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?

So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.


That would be smart of hypothetical him.  Unless the backup was more exposed to theft.  Then that'd be bad.  The point I'm trying to make is that he's assuming the technical risks for himself, rather than making them vanish.  And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.
 
2014-03-04 01:34:05 PM  
Thank you for holding. You will be served as soon as a representative is available. Current hold time is three hundred thousand, four hours.
 
2014-03-04 01:36:03 PM  

ikanreed: LasersHurt: ikanreed: Belias: hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"

Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?

So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.

That would be smart of hypothetical him.  Unless the backup was more exposed to theft.  Then that'd be bad.  The point I'm trying to make is that he's assuming the technical risks for himself, rather than making them vanish.  And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.


Which is why more companies are putting stronger systems in place. I prefer to keep mine offline and deal with it myself, but it's absolutely trivial to make a secure backup. You protect the key as well - the chances of "theft" are exceedingly low.

It's not perfect. If that's your takeaway, so be it.
 
2014-03-04 01:36:58 PM  

LesserEvil: Bitcoin has been rising steadily, even today, on news that another online wallet was robbed (This time only about $615,000 worth).

The lessons:

* Some people are ignorant as hell and confuse MtGox with Bitcoin.
* Some people absolutely hate cryptocurrency without understanding what it is, or why it has value
* The money was stolen from MtGox because they did not provide proper security measures.
* Exchanges and online wallets are only as secure as the passwords used to secure them AND the security measures used to protect the data. This isn't a failing of Bitcoin, which can (and should) be kept in a personal wallet, rather than trusting an online exchange with it.
* Bitcoin isn't just for criminals. Many legitimate vendors accept bitcoin, like TigerDirect. In places like Cyprus and Greece, it is more secure than keeping your money in a bank, where the government regularly dips into people's accounts to line their own pockets.
* Bitcoin's value doesn't go up and down in wild swings. It isn't as stable as the US dollar, to be sure... and as difficulty in mining goes up, so will the value. but it's not like it's losing half its value overnight. MtGox's exchange rates were rigged at the end to try and devalue BTC, and it didn't work.

I can always count on a lot of herp-a-derp in these threads from the farkers who seem to really, really hate bitcoin with a passion, though they've had no experience with it, and for no real reason than their own unsubstantiated opinion that BTC is valueless. Clearly they are wrong - people exchange BTC for cash and services all the time now.

As for the criminal element - sure, there's the Silk Road nonsense, but that is only a part of it, and realistically, no more a part of it than what cash is to crime. That is to say... criminals will take advantage of any system they can. Is your money any safer in a debit account that you used to make a charge at Target last Christmas? We've also seen how effective the Silk Road was in not getting ...


So how was the problem of colluding nodes chasing down the block chain solved? Or did you all just agree that isn't a problem?
 
2014-03-04 01:37:12 PM  
I didn't know there was such a thing as Bitcoin hate. Weird.

[stop liking things i dont like!.jpg]
 
2014-03-04 01:38:02 PM  
And that's why I ONLY use gold doubloons.
 
2014-03-04 01:38:13 PM  

LasersHurt: ikanreed: LasersHurt: ikanreed: Belias: hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"

Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?

So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.

That would be smart of hypothetical him.  Unless the backup was more exposed to theft.  Then that'd be bad.  The point I'm trying to make is that he's assuming the technical risks for himself, rather than making them vanish.  And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

Which is why more companies are putting stronger systems in place. I prefer to keep mine offline and deal with it myself, but it's absolutely trivial to make a secure backup. You protect the key as well - the chances of "theft" are exceedingly low.

It's not perfect. If that's your takeaway, so be it.


Yeah, this is why you get called "true believers".  It's because the currency's mechanics can never fail, they can only be failed.  It's a bit deluded.
 
2014-03-04 01:39:05 PM  

K3rmy: For those who work in call centers, the other thing to do is pick a stupid word of the day.  This would be a word that should have NO BUSINESS being spoken during your call but you have to find a way to do so.  Bonus points for creativity.  Now the word does not have to be profane or vulgar.  Just inappropriate.  Like "Watermelon", "Aardvark", "Disco" or "Pantyhose" in a inbound technical support call center.


"Let's see what version of the software you're running meow."
 
2014-03-04 01:39:57 PM  

ikanreed: Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?


You caught me, I'm the only true believer left. In fact, I've been single-handedly propping up the exchange rate with my infinite stash of USD.

To answer your question, all of it (not that I have that much). They have this really cool new feature in modern operating systems called a "file copy".  You see, it makes a copy of a file, such as a Bitcoin wallet file.  You can "back up" files in lots of different ways, using several different kinds of media - or even "the cloud".  Neat stuff.  You should look into it, if you have any other files on your hard drive that you'd like to survive a hard drive crash.
 
2014-03-04 01:40:27 PM  

ikanreed: Yeah, this is why you get called "true believers".  It's because the currency's mechanics can never fail, they can only be failed.  It's a bit deluded.


What's deluded there? I pointed out the points of failure that exist. They are known. All things have points of failure.

Bitcoin is a protocol. Actual threats are mitigated through updates over time.

I find it absurdly childish that you can know so little about something, yet decide everyone who disagrees with you needs a snarky title. I've not even said that Bitcoin is this, that, or the other thing - no worship, no superlatives. It is precisely what it is. How that makes me a "true believer" I do not understand.
 
2014-03-04 01:40:30 PM  
All of our operator is busy.  Please remain on the line. You are a valued customer.  (  crappy distorted elevator music )  repeat as needed.
 
2014-03-04 01:41:12 PM  

mdeesnuts: I didn't know there was such a thing as Bitcoin hate. Weird.

[stop liking things i dont like!.jpg]


Some of us only hate the doofuses who go "it's the wave of the future, look at how much it's worth"
 
2014-03-04 01:42:22 PM  

ikanreed: LasersHurt: ikanreed: Belias: hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"

Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?

So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.

That would be smart of hypothetical him.  Unless the backup was more exposed to theft.  Then that'd be bad.  The point I'm trying to make is that he's assuming the technical risks for himself, rather than making them vanish.  And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.


Again, people who do not understand cryptos seem to think they can speak about it.

Your backups are password protected. You keep them secure, like you might bonds. If you lose a million dollars worth of bonds in a fire, who is going to replace them when you have no proof you owned them in the first place... "hypothetical case" of course.

It's actually pretty easy for casual users. Get Multibit as your wallet client. Make password-protected backups to a USB flash drive and keep in a fire safe. Gee, that wasn't hard at all. Transactions I've done (small time, I have less than $100 in BTC right now) have been quick and simple. I bought some stuff on Bitmit.net, but that's been down for a few months. Ultimately, it was as easy as doing a PayPal transaction.
 
2014-03-04 01:44:15 PM  

Belias: MelGoesOnTour: Belias: Blame the company, not the currency.

No. It's correct to blame what you call "currency".

So, for the millions in US dollars that were also lost due to MtGox's incompetence, we should blame... the US dollar?


MtGox didn't lose the US dollars on their exchange. They lost their bitcoin.

This might have something to do with bitcoin's decentralized means of being able to be sent through the Internet to psudo-anonymous addresses, without any means for reversal.
 
2014-03-04 01:45:27 PM  
The only trouble is, they pay you in Bitcoins
 
2014-03-04 01:45:57 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: So how was the problem of colluding nodes chasing down the block chain solved? Or did you all just agree that isn't a problem?


I think the term you are looking for is "colliding" - and I believe other exchanges aren't suffering from this issue. MtGox might have been the victim of an insider, or the victim of an automated protocol that didn't check.

I'm not going to say their are/won't be issues with BTC in the future. Some newer cryptos are trying to solve some of the networking issues, but major theft that exploits a vulnerability in transactions shouldn't happen before somebody notices.
 
2014-03-04 01:49:04 PM  

LesserEvil: ikanreed: LasersHurt: ikanreed: Belias: hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"

Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?

So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.

That would be smart of hypothetical him.  Unless the backup was more exposed to theft.  Then that'd be bad.  The point I'm trying to make is that he's assuming the technical risks for himself, rather than making them vanish.  And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

Again, people who do not understand cryptos seem to think they can speak about it.

Your backups are password protected. You keep them secure, like you might bonds. If you lose a million dollars worth of bonds in a fire, who is going to replace them when you have no proof you owned them in the first place... "hypothetical case" of course.

It's actually pretty easy for casual users. Get Multibit as your wallet client. Make password-protected backups to a USB flash drive and keep in a fire safe. Gee, that wasn't hard at all. Transactions I've done (small time, I have less than $100 in BTC right now) have been quick and simple. I bought some stuff on Bitmit.net, but that's been down for a few months. Ultimately, it was as easy as ...


It's fun to watch you people continue to live in fantasyland.
 
2014-03-04 01:49:07 PM  

ikanreed: DrKillPatient: Second bitcoin site bites the dust.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101463888

"But that one was tiny.  It's doesn't count."
"What about Mt Gox?"
"Mount gox is just one site, it doesn't represent a trend!!!"
"What about other major exchanges having smaller breakins"
"BITCOINS ARE FOREVER LALALALALA, JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT SAFE IN REALITY DOESN'T MEAN THE THEORY IS BAD"


I like the argument that this actually helps the bitcoin market, since there are less in circulation.  Now who wants step right up and bet the farm on unicorn farts?
 
2014-03-04 01:49:17 PM  
Is it just me, or is Bitcoin the real life currency modeled after Eve online.  Pretty much anything goes and if you are smart enough to steal it, kudos to you.
 
2014-03-04 01:49:43 PM  

LesserEvil: * Exchanges and online wallets are only as secure as the passwords used to secure them AND the security measures used to protect the data.


And personal wallets are only as secure as your computer. Imagine if everyone that has ever managed to install a trojan, or have their personal system hacked, losses their entire bank account in the process, with no means of recovery.


* Bitcoin's value doesn't go up and down in wild swings.

The hell it doesn't.
 
2014-03-04 01:49:44 PM  

ikanreed: Some of us only hate the doofuses who go "it's the wave of the future, look at how much it's worth"


Nah. Too much effort expended.

So really. What's the catch? If you don't use Bitcoin what's your angle?
 
2014-03-04 01:53:08 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: Debeo Summa Credo: The only thing IMO that gives dollar bills a floor value is that the US government can require tax payments to be made in dollars. So by requiring tax payments in these worthless pieces of paper, the government can actually force people to need them, giving them a non-zero value.

Given that dollar bills are legal tender for debts, and there is a lot of money-owing going on in America, I think it's more than just the fact I have to pay taxes in dollars that gives a dollar a "value". The value of a dollar is more than a mass delusion. It's tied to property rights that are defined and enforced by the government.
Of course, for the libertarian-minded, that means fark-all, as property rights are rights of man and not things governments have anything to say about. But rational people, we know we aren't going to wake up one day and find no one believes in our dollars anymore.


It's usable for debts that are denominated in dollars. Just like it can be used to buy stuff. But there is nothing that dictates that stuff has to be exchanged for dollars, if the sellers don't find value in dollars. Similarly, if demand for dollars goes away, new loans won't be denominated in them because noone will want them.

Ill grant you that while old dollar denominated debt is outstanding it does provide another floor as people will need dollars to pay for old debt, albeit temporary.
 
2014-03-04 01:57:03 PM  

ikanreed: mdeesnuts: I didn't know there was such a thing as Bitcoin hate. Weird.

[stop liking things i dont like!.jpg]

Some of us only hate the doofuses who go "it's the wave of the future, look at how much it's worth"


To be perfectly fair to everyone, geeks love it but they don't explain it very well.  It's also compounded by having a lot of press thrown at it, much of which is sensational or just plain wrong.  No wonder people don't get the value.  Believe me there's an effort underway to make it seem scary and unstable (which it is, actually, but won't be forever).

Geeks get really excited about it because it has the power to cut all of the financial vultures out of online transactions.  That's the real value.  A lot of people see it as an investment opportunity and I'm dubious about it from that perspective, long term.  These things are for transactions.

Chinese investors (and other grey-hat money sources) love it right now because it can be a relatively paperwork-free way to invest the boatloads of cash some of them are making.  It's hard for governments to seize crypto-currencies like this at the moment.
 
2014-03-04 01:57:15 PM  

impaler: Belias: MelGoesOnTour: Belias: Blame the company, not the currency.

MtGox didn't lose the US dollars on their exchange. They lost their bitcoin.


You are incorrect. They also lost funds from their bank account, in a parallel theft.  Regardless of amount stolen for each, the net result is that they do not have enough funds left to repay their depositors.  Customers will lose BOTH their Bitcoin AND their fiat deposits - USD, Euro, etc.

They were either incredibly (incredibly) incompetent, or they are committing fraud.  Neither of these says anything about the Bitcoin protocol.
 
2014-03-04 01:58:15 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: And that's why I ONLY use gold doubloons.


pcgmedia.com

I conduct all trade in military grade surplus ammunition
 
2014-03-04 01:59:41 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: It's fun to watch you people continue to live in fantasyland.


Which part is the fantasy, copying a file onto a USB stick?
 
2014-03-04 02:01:28 PM  

LasersHurt: ikanreed: LasersHurt: ikanreed: Belias: hardinparamedic: Well, it's also a good thing that I can pretty much count on not getting a call from my bank telling me my USD are now worthless and missing, isn't it?

Yes, just as I can count on my Bitcoins not to spontaneously go missing, because I have not chosen a "Magic, the Gathering" site to store them.  But to be sure, lemme check my accounts.  It seems the net effect of the MtGox failure on my Bitcoin balance was ... none.

It's clear that MtGox's customers are facing missing value - both in dollars and in Bitcoin.  I don't follow the "worthless" part of your statement.  By "worthless", do you mean "trading at $650 per Bitcoin?"

Ooh, a true believer, I haven't seen one in the wild for a while.  Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?

So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.

That would be smart of hypothetical him.  Unless the backup was more exposed to theft.  Then that'd be bad.  The point I'm trying to make is that he's assuming the technical risks for himself, rather than making them vanish.  And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

Which is why more companies are putting stronger systems in place. I prefer to keep mine offline and deal with it myself, but it's absolutely trivial to make a secure backup. You protect the key as well - the chances of "theft" are exceedingly low.

It's not perfect. If that's your takeaway, so be it.


Same here with dealing with it offline. I actually back my wallet up in Minecraft, using a redstone powered solid state storage structure, and that minecraft world is then backed up regularly to a VM with a truecrypt partition, which is then copied to a sd card that I store in my phone.

People should take security more seriously.
 
2014-03-04 02:02:10 PM  

LesserEvil: rumpelstiltskin: So how was the problem of colluding nodes chasing down the block chain solved? Or did you all just agree that isn't a problem?

I think the term you are looking for is "colliding" - and I believe other exchanges aren't suffering from this issue. MtGox might have been the victim of an insider, or the victim of an automated protocol that didn't check.

I'm not going to say their are/won't be issues with BTC in the future. Some newer cryptos are trying to solve some of the networking issues, but major theft that exploits a vulnerability in transactions shouldn't happen before somebody notices.


No, the word I'm looking for is the word I used- colluding.
http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243

I know there has been a lot of foot stamping by the bitcoin community. But if there has been anything right in what they say, it's being drowned out by the believers. As far as I know today, the math is sound.
So tell me, is the math unsound? Has someone found a flaw in Eyal's reasoning?
 
2014-03-04 02:02:46 PM  
I'll be honest...I am completely uneducated regarding bitcoins. Can somebody explain, in layman's terms, what bitcoins are, what they're for, and why I'd want to use them as opposed to using US dollars? What are the benefits/drawbacks?
 
2014-03-04 02:03:39 PM  

Slackfumasta: LasersHurt: ikanreed: LasersHurt: So long as he backed it up? Everything he had before.

That would be smart of hypothetical him.  Unless the backup was more exposed to theft.  Then that'd be bad.  The point I'm trying to make is that he's assuming the technical risks for himself, rather than making them vanish.  And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

Which is why more companies are putting stronger systems in place. I prefer to keep mine offline and deal with it myself, but it's absolutely trivial to make a secure backup. You protect the key as well - the chances of "theft" are exceedingly low.

It's not perfect. If that's your takeaway, so be it.

Same here with dealing with it offline. I actually back my wallet up in Minecraft, using a redstone powered solid state storage structure, and that minecraft world is then backed up regularly to a VM with a truecrypt partition, which is then copied to a sd card that I store in my phone.

People should take security more seriously.


If it's not in your anus, it's not security.
 
2014-03-04 02:03:49 PM  
I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.
 
2014-03-04 02:09:27 PM  

The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.


You can use bitcoin in a variety of online stores, like Overstock.com, TigerDirect, or others. More start accepting every day. You can also turn Bitcoin into Amazon Giftcards, or USD, and buy whatever else you want.

Bitcoin is the exception, not the rule. In most of your life you'd use your local fiat currency. But it's growing in acceptance, and provides a novel means of exchange that some people like. The low transaction fees can save many merchants money.
 
2014-03-04 02:09:29 PM  

The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.


Apparently, if I understand the believers correctly, you can pretty much only buy "virtual" items. Well, maybe sometimes actual items (if the sites aren't down) or maybe trade with another Bitcoin enthusiast. But, apart from that, I don't think they have any real-world application. In any case, with the bitcoin "value" fluctuating so wildly, I'm not sure if it's even possible to buy tangible items (let alone agree on a price at any given moment). Apart from that, you'll be spending your days (like the folks in their mom's basements) on the computer securing your wallet, doing crypto-stuff, and basically being a nerd.
 
2014-03-04 02:10:35 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.

Apparently, if I understand the believers correctly, you can pretty much only buy "virtual" items. Well, maybe sometimes actual items (if the sites aren't down) or maybe trade with another Bitcoin enthusiast. But, apart from that, I don't think they have any real-world application. In any case, with the bitcoin "value" fluctuating so wildly, I'm not sure if it's even possible to buy tangible items (let alone agree on a price at any given moment). Apart from that, you'll be spending your days (like the folks in their mom's basements) on the computer securing your wallet, doing crypto-stuff, and basically being a nerd.


LasersHurt: You can use bitcoin in a variety of online stores, like Overstock.com, TigerDirect, or others. More start accepting every day. You can also turn Bitcoin into Amazon Giftcards, or USD, and buy whatever else you want.


Additionally, small business are accepting crypto currencies in some cases because transaction fees are lower than credit cards.
 
2014-03-04 02:13:23 PM  
Aside from the fact that it is an investment vehicle first and foremost, and holds no real benefits as an actual currency...

Bitcoiners, answer me this: I was told that because of the trail of transactions on bitcoins that they essentially cannot disappear - that the trail makes them more real in that regard.

If you had them at a foreign bank and the bank says "nope, these coins are all mine now" or a hacker comes in and moves the bitcoins away, why is there is no recovery option?

If the answer is that there is nobody to look at your appeal/complaint/etc and agree that the bitcoin is in fact yours and not someone else's, then what is the benefit to the trail?  Essentially any bank that holds bitcoins for you is operating completely on your trust that they won't screw you. That requires far more trust than I will ever have for banks using government issued currency and backed by the FDIC.

So I guess what I'm saying is it is a little bit hillarious that bitcoins seem to be most popular among those who dislike the zomg-fiat aspect of the U.S. Dollar.  Every complaint about the dollar seems magnified with the bitcoin, not minimized.  Hell, take the madoff references earlier.  Had bernie been playing with bitcoins the whole time, NOBODY would have gotten any of their money back. I'm not even sure there they could have put him in prison for his scheme had he been operating with bitcoins.

karmaceutical: I like the argument that this actually helps the bitcoin market, since there are less in circulation.  Now who wants step right up and bet the farm on unicorn farts?


Yea, marketplace money interviewed some bitcoin enthusiasts last week speaking about how great this failure is, because they now believe it won't happen again and we can REALLY get down to some real bitcoin business. Even if they were right and not just the second round of losers in this game (or maybe they get lucky and end up winners), that still leaves them as pretty much the most glaring example of fark-You-I've-Got-Mine around. These people don't want a safer currency that is superior to the dollar at all.
 
2014-03-04 02:16:24 PM  

Smackledorfer: These people don't want a safer currency that is superior to the dollar at all.


There are absolutely different groups in the Bitcoin arena. Some want it to be a currency, some are clearly trading it like some sort of commodity or trying to play Investor. Some are ultra-libertarians, and that's the "fark you I got mine" crowd right there.

There is a core group of "srs business" Bitcoiners who welcome sensible oversight and regulation precisely FOR the legitimacy it gives, but it's not clear who will be the dominant voice long term. Hopefully not the loons.
 
2014-03-04 02:16:46 PM  

ikanreed: And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.


This should be repeated.

LasersHurt: provides a novel means of exchange that some people like.


If your best argument is that it is nifty, then it is probably garbage.
 
2014-03-04 02:18:24 PM  

LasersHurt: The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.

You can use bitcoin in a variety of online stores, like Overstock.com, TigerDirect, or others. More start accepting every day. You can also turn Bitcoin into Amazon Giftcards, or USD, and buy whatever else you want.

Bitcoin is the exception, not the rule. In most of your life you'd use your local fiat currency. But it's growing in acceptance, and provides a novel means of exchange that some people like. The low transaction fees can save many merchants money.


Why would I want to use a different currency at overstock when they take dollars, which I already have and everyone takes online and in real life?

I admittedly know absolutely nothing about this bit coin stuff, but it really really seems like itchy and scratchy money to me.

I have two children under four. I have time for one hobby, and it's home brewing. "Novel currency" feels like an unnecessary hassle when normal money serves my "buying things" needs perfectly.
 
2014-03-04 02:19:59 PM  

LasersHurt: There is a core group of "srs business" Bitcoiners who welcome sensible oversight and regulation precisely FOR the legitimacy it gives, but it's not clear who will be the dominant voice long term. Hopefully not the loons.


And when the non-loons win and it becomes stable, overseen, regulated, and by extension acknowledged as having value by international governments, what purpose remains to the currency?

Once you add in the regulation and security, how does operating with bitcoins become better than a debit (and before you say anyone can rip off your debit account upon use, nobody is forcing anyone to keep their life-savings in the same account they buy a hamburger from mcdonald's with, and we can buy gift-cards or use one-time-use card numbers for transactions already).
 
2014-03-04 02:20:49 PM  

Magorn: Chagrin: Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?

These were my first two thoughts when I heard of the Mt Gox theft:
When that news hit the wire, I would SO not want to be the bright young cartel member or mob soldier who convinced my boss to stash the family's profits in Bitcoins because they were so safe an untraceable.  and then following on the heels of that, the idea that these people are not noted for their forgiving and generous natures, and that whoever DID make off with those had better be goddamn sure they can trust their laundering/fencing operation



Bitcoin is the literal opposite of untraceable.  The ledger of where the coins have been since Day 0 is distributed throughout.

Sometimes I think bitcoin was some government's invention as a massive sting operation.
 
2014-03-04 02:20:57 PM  
Seems like unless I think I'm going to make money from the investment side of the bitcoin, all I get for my trouble is a waste of my time (and time is money).
 
2014-03-04 02:21:39 PM  

Smackledorfer: ikanreed: And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

This should be repeated.

LasersHurt: provides a novel means of exchange that some people like.

If your best argument is that it is nifty, then it is probably garbage.


It's one thing I said, not anyone's best argument for anything. If you don't like it, then, you know, don't get involved.

The Homer Tax: Why would I want to use a different currency at overstock when they take dollars, which I already have and everyone takes online and in real life?


I don't know or care why you would use what you use, you asked what you can do with it. I told you.

The Homer Tax: I admittedly know absolutely nothing about this bit coin stuff


Mm-Hmm.

The Homer Tax: I have two children under four. I have time for one hobby, and it's home brewing. "Novel currency" feels like an unnecessary hassle when normal money serves my "buying things" needs perfectly.


Okay? Perfectly reasonable. The only reason I know what I do is that I got into Mining as a hobby, and in a month that hobby netted me 200 USD. Take it as serious currency or not, I don't care, but what it IS is amusing to me and makes a fun hobby.
 
2014-03-04 02:23:50 PM  

TheDirtyNacho: Magorn: Chagrin: Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?

These were my first two thoughts when I heard of the Mt Gox theft:
When that news hit the wire, I would SO not want to be the bright young cartel member or mob soldier who convinced my boss to stash the family's profits in Bitcoins because they were so safe an untraceable.  and then following on the heels of that, the idea that these people are not noted for their forgiving and generous natures, and that whoever DID make off with those had better be goddamn sure they can trust their laundering/fencing operation

Bitcoin is the literal opposite of untraceable.  The ledger of where the coins have been since Day 0 is distributed throughout.


Then how do they get "lost" or "stolen"?
 
2014-03-04 02:24:07 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: There is a core group of "srs business" Bitcoiners who welcome sensible oversight and regulation precisely FOR the legitimacy it gives, but it's not clear who will be the dominant voice long term. Hopefully not the loons.

And when the non-loons win and it becomes stable, overseen, regulated, and by extension acknowledged as having value by international governments, what purpose remains to the currency?

Once you add in the regulation and security, how does operating with bitcoins become better than a debit (and before you say anyone can rip off your debit account upon use, nobody is forcing anyone to keep their life-savings in the same account they buy a hamburger from mcdonald's with, and we can buy gift-cards or use one-time-use card numbers for transactions already).


It's still open-source and open-ledger, unlike current currency. It's also fast and cheaper to transfer. I have no idea if it will become "the" currency, or die out. I think CryptoCurrency as an idea, however, has a lot of merit because it takes the power out of any central hands entirely and provides an exchange mechanism that is transparent and cheap.

I think some people are imagining a world of Bitcoin in the next year, and that's obviously not going to happen. The majority of your life and purchases will remain your local currency for some time, I bet.
 
2014-03-04 02:24:45 PM  
This whole story almost sounds like it came out of EVE
 
2014-03-04 02:25:13 PM  

jst3p: TheDirtyNacho: Magorn: Chagrin: Virtual currency highly involved with the legal drug trade? What's the lifespan of an employee that screws those people over?

These were my first two thoughts when I heard of the Mt Gox theft:
When that news hit the wire, I would SO not want to be the bright young cartel member or mob soldier who convinced my boss to stash the family's profits in Bitcoins because they were so safe an untraceable.  and then following on the heels of that, the idea that these people are not noted for their forgiving and generous natures, and that whoever DID make off with those had better be goddamn sure they can trust their laundering/fencing operation

Bitcoin is the literal opposite of untraceable.  The ledger of where the coins have been since Day 0 is distributed throughout.

Then how do they get "lost" or "stolen"?


Gross Negligence by a crappy exchange which is probably lying through its teeth about what happened to the coins.

Those curious have tracked all of their transactions and located the wallets; it's about who has control of the Private Key, if anyone.
 
2014-03-04 02:25:15 PM  

TheDirtyNacho: Bitcoin is the literal opposite of untraceable.


Then MTGox can get their money back, and/or the rest of the world can declare stolen bitcoins in the system to be used fraudulently, right?  Because if my dollar bill says "property of TheDirtyNacho, subsequently stolen by Smackledorfer and spent on the black market" and I can still spend it just like it said "legitimately owned by Smackle" then where is the benefit of the tracking (besides preventing people from creating new bitcoins from thin air without mining, of course).
 
2014-03-04 02:26:12 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: The Homer Tax: I use people dollars to pay bills, put gas in my car, buy food for my family and diapers for the baby.

Where would I go to use Internet monies to do that? I don't think target takes USB drives as payment.

Apparently, if I understand the believers correctly, you can pretty much only buy "virtual" items. Well, maybe sometimes actual items (if the sites aren't down) or maybe trade with another Bitcoin enthusiast. But, apart from that, I don't think they have any real-world application. In any case, with the bitcoin "value" fluctuating so wildly, I'm not sure if it's even possible to buy tangible items (let alone agree on a price at any given moment). Apart from that, you'll be spending your days (like the folks in their mom's basements) on the computer securing your wallet, doing crypto-stuff, and basically being a nerd.


This is the first explanation that has ever made sense to me. It's a hobby for needs who like money and computer security.

My hobby is a hobby for nerds who like beer. I could just buy beer, but find entertainment in making my own. This is the first time bit coins has ever made sense to me.
 
2014-03-04 02:26:21 PM  

LasersHurt: Okay? Perfectly reasonable. The only reason I know what I do is that I got into Mining as a hobby, and in a month that hobby netted me 200 USD. Take it as serious currency or not, I don't care, but what it IS is amusing to me and makes a fun hobby.


So...in addition to this being like some sort of novel game, you have to "mine" it? You can't just "work" for it? And by "mining" it sounds like you really mean farking around on the computer all day playing games.
 
2014-03-04 02:27:02 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: LesserEvil: rumpelstiltskin: So how was the problem of colluding nodes chasing down the block chain solved? Or did you all just agree that isn't a problem?

I think the term you are looking for is "colliding" - and I believe other exchanges aren't suffering from this issue. MtGox might have been the victim of an insider, or the victim of an automated protocol that didn't check.

I'm not going to say their are/won't be issues with BTC in the future. Some newer cryptos are trying to solve some of the networking issues, but major theft that exploits a vulnerability in transactions shouldn't happen before somebody notices.

No, the word I'm looking for is the word I used- colluding.
http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243

I know there has been a lot of foot stamping by the bitcoin community. But if there has been anything right in what they say, it's being drowned out by the believers. As far as I know today, the math is sound.
So tell me, is the math unsound? Has someone found a flaw in Eyal's reasoning?


Dunno, but the exchanges are filled with speculators (i.e. "day traders"). As I stated, I'm not invested in it and have a vague understanding (which is still much clearer than most of the haters here) of the math and algorithms behind cryptocurrencies.

Ultimately, BTC isn't really worse than stocks and bonds. I find it odd that so many people have an irrational hatred of cryptocurrency, as if BTC broke into their houses and pissed on their cornflakes every morning for the last year. To me, it seems like these people have an inferiority complex, and they are compensating by trying to find a group of people - people who use bitcoin - and telling them "your coins are worthless (and so are you because you believe in fantasyland, so I'm much better than you!)"

I'm just trying to strike a balance here in the discussion. There is a lot of misunderstanding and honestly, most of the haters seem to come off as irrational jerks who clearly do not understand anything about the thing they are critical of (much like the geniuses on both sides who spend too much time in the politics tab)
 
2014-03-04 02:28:05 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: LasersHurt: Okay? Perfectly reasonable. The only reason I know what I do is that I got into Mining as a hobby, and in a month that hobby netted me 200 USD. Take it as serious currency or not, I don't care, but what it IS is amusing to me and makes a fun hobby.

So...in addition to this being like some sort of novel game, you have to "mine" it? You can't just "work" for it? And by "mining" it sounds like you really mean farking around on the computer all day playing games.


"Mining" is the "work" that you do, which is searching for cryptographic sequences and verifying network work. You don't have to mine it, you can buy it. Though admittedly I don't see a need to go buying it in most cases, unless you're gambling on a price rise.

It would be nice to have a Crypto based on more useful work, and some are in development (linked to Folding At Home, etc).
 
2014-03-04 02:28:52 PM  

LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: ikanreed: And that is beyond the casual user.  And the casual user is the most important user of a currency.  They're the ones that provide liquidity.

This should be repeated.

LasersHurt: provides a novel means of exchange that some people like.

If your best argument is that it is nifty, then it is probably garbage.

It's one thing I said, not anyone's best argument for anything. If you don't like it, then, you know, don't get involved.

The Homer Tax: Why would I want to use a different currency at overstock when they take dollars, which I already have and everyone takes online and in real life?

I don't know or care why you would use what you use, you asked what you can do with it. I told you.

The Homer Tax: I admittedly know absolutely nothing about this bit coin stuff

Mm-Hmm.

The Homer Tax: I have two children under four. I have time for one hobby, and it's home brewing. "Novel currency" feels like an unnecessary hassle when normal money serves my "buying things" needs perfectly.

Okay? Perfectly reasonable. The only reason I know what I do is that I got into Mining as a hobby, and in a month that hobby netted me 200 USD. Take it as serious currency or not, I don't care, but what it IS is amusing to me and makes a fun hobby.


What's "mining?"
 
2014-03-04 02:30:10 PM  

Chameleon: Debeo Summa Credo: But why does the "productive power and financial potential" of a country give any more value to a fiat currency? If nobody will accept my $20 bill, how do I trade it in for $20 worth of GDP? If i bring it to down to the treasury will Jacob Lew give me some steel and wheat? How much steel and wheat?

Yeah, but the same can be said for gold, silver, shiny beads, giant stone coins, etc.  No currency has any value beyond what you can trade it for.  That's why I started my petition to back the US dollar with potatoes.

/yes, I know that gold has use in electronics but that is not traditionally what its value is based on.  Its value is based on "ooh, shiny!"



Gold's a pretty good currency for an agrarian civilization.  It's rare, but not too rare as to be impractical to mine.  It's too soft to be usable as a building material unlike stone or iron so you don't have to worry about currency depletion in that manner.  And it looks nice to boot.

Beads made of similarly rare material perform a likewise function.  Gold probably won out because its more moldable into various artifacts.  Literally hammering your money onto something to give it recognizable value.

Outside of an agrarian society it stops making sense though.
 
2014-03-04 02:30:49 PM  

LasersHurt: It's one thing I said, not anyone's best argument for anything. If you don't like it, then, you know, don't get involved.


Maybe I am misreading your complaint, but welcome to fark?

If you don't want people to respond to you, don't post. You made public arguments defending Bitcoin, and didn't expect people to respond on the public forum?

Maybe you should just walk into your bathroom and talk to the mirror. Then you can hear any response you want.

How about this, if there is a real advantage besides it being novel, why don't you say so? I'm not telling you that I know for sure it does not. I am saying I don't know of any advantage that it does have.

LasersHurt: It's also fast and cheaper to transfer


Except you want regulation and security in bitcoins, because you aren't one of the loons.  At which point it won't be any faster or cheaper than anything currently available.
 
2014-03-04 02:32:34 PM  

LasersHurt: And when the non-loons win and it becomes stable, overseen, regulated, and by extension acknowledged as having value by international governments, what purpose remains to the currency?


It's still open-source and open-ledger, unlike current currency. It's also fast and cheaper to transfer.


Those oversights (insurance) cost money, which is where those transaction fees bitcoiners don't want to pay go to. So it won't be cheaper. And it isn't faster.
 
2014-03-04 02:33:10 PM  

The Homer Tax: What's "mining?"


Mining is now New Bitcoins - or other cryptocurrencies - are created. The process is controlled to allow a very specific growth pattern in Bitcoin supply, allowing the value to regulate like a currency should.

Mining itself is essentially making computers do a ton of math to find "blocks" - parts of the Bitcoin Blockchain, which is the central record. Bitcoin mining today has been overrun by "ASICs" - chips meant to specifically mine. Many Alternative Cryptocurrencies use math that is easily done on GPUs.

I mine by building computers with powerful GPUs and mining alternative currencies, based on exchange rate with Bitcoin.
 
2014-03-04 02:34:59 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: It's one thing I said, not anyone's best argument for anything. If you don't like it, then, you know, don't get involved.

Maybe I am misreading your complaint, but welcome to fark?

If you don't want people to respond to you, don't post. You made public arguments defending Bitcoin, and didn't expect people to respond on the public forum?

Maybe you should just walk into your bathroom and talk to the mirror. Then you can hear any response you want.

How about this, if there is a real advantage besides it being novel, why don't you say so? I'm not telling you that I know for sure it does not. I am saying I don't know of any advantage that it does have.

LasersHurt: It's also fast and cheaper to transfer

Except you want regulation and security in bitcoins, because you aren't one of the loons.  At which point it won't be any faster or cheaper than anything currently available.


Your only argument to me was snark; I snarked back. Your response makes me think that you're pretty clearly the one over-reacting.

Your last sentence is meaningless. I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance. All you do is assume it will be the same cost, because... you assume so.
 
2014-03-04 02:35:01 PM  

LasersHurt: "Mining" is the "work" that you do, which is searching for cryptographic sequences and verifying network work.


Yes, I love this part too. In order to achieve scarcity and add some semblance of value to Bitcoins, we first have spend real world resources like electricity to create them. I know, resources are spent to create paper currency and mint coins, but unless bitcoins do something significant that the dollar cannot (and I still don't see what that is) then that is a lot of waste for nothing.
 
2014-03-04 02:36:39 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: hardinparamedic: Debeo Summa Credo: Not that I buy into or understand bitcoins, but what does it mean to you to have a currency "backed by the GDP of a country"?

Because it's not just a piece of paper backed by a finite resource such as Gold. IANAE, but the production power and financhial potential of a first world country seems a little more safer a bet than a barter commodity who's only value is what the community itsself places on it, and which encourages hoarding due to it's numerical cap.

But yeah. I'm still going to point and laugh.

But why does the "productive power and financial potential" of a country give any more value to a fiat currency? If nobody will accept my $20 bill, how do I trade it in for $20 worth of GDP? If i bring it to down to the treasury will Jacob Lew give me some steel and wheat? How much steel and wheat?

I think we both view bitcoins as a "bigger idiot theory" type alternative currency. The only thing that gives them value is the demand of other idiots for them.

But conceptually, the dollar is not dissimilar. It's just that there are alot more "idiots" out there who use dollars and have been using dollars for a very very long time. Therefore we can be much more confident that there will always be a fellow idiot to which to trade our intrinsically worthless dollars to for tangible goods.

The only thing IMO that gives dollar bills a floor value is that the US government can require tax payments to be made in dollars. So by requiring tax payments in these worthless pieces of paper, the government can actually force people to need them, giving them a non-zero value.


The dollar has vast reams of laws, and courts, and international treaties, and other legal resources ensuring that no shenanigans ensue in its valuation. To trust BitCoin to have some sort of stable value, you have to trust the claims of anonymous people on the Internet. FFS, how stupid do you have to be to do that?
 
2014-03-04 02:37:44 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: "Mining" is the "work" that you do, which is searching for cryptographic sequences and verifying network work.

Yes, I love this part too. In order to achieve scarcity and add some semblance of value to Bitcoins, we first have spend real world resources like electricity to create them. I know, resources are spent to create paper currency and mint coins, but unless bitcoins do something significant that the dollar cannot (and I still don't see what that is) then that is a lot of waste for nothing.


That is one of the main complaints - people are searching for a way to make useful work a part of the process. It's starting with things like Folding@Home or BOINC.
 
2014-03-04 02:39:06 PM  
Incoming gov regulations in..

3
2
1

Yeah yeah, the Internet used to be wide open too.
 
2014-03-04 02:42:09 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: How the fark do you lose a virtual currency?  I don't understand that.  I can understand how someone can steal you cash or gold, but this?


The harddrive crashed
 
2014-03-04 02:42:45 PM  

LasersHurt: Your only argument to me was snark; I snarked back. Your response makes me think that you're pretty clearly the one over-reacting.

Your last sentence is meaningless. I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance. All you do is assume it will be the same cost, because... you assume so.



Now you are just projecting.

You are the one making assertions, not me. I'm openly admitting there is the possibility I am wrong and bitcoin could add something legitimately beneficial as an additional currency.  At the same time, I'm pointing out that I don't see those benefits, and asking you what they are.

Your entire argument thus far is baseless, and you seem to get pissy when anyone asks you to support them.

Finally, it wasn't snark. I was dead serious. If you cannot justify bitcoins beyond how novel they are, that is fine.  But if that is all you have, why whiteknight bitcoin like you are doing? They aren't going to fill a moneybin and let you swim in them.

Just say "hey I think they are neato" and be done with it.
 
2014-03-04 02:43:40 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: And when the non-loons win and it becomes stable, overseen, regulated, and by extension acknowledged as having value by international governments, what purpose remains to the currency?


It's still open-source and open-ledger, unlike current currency. It's also fast and cheaper to transfer.

Those oversights (insurance) cost money, which is where those transaction fees bitcoiners don't want to pay go to. So it won't be cheaper. And it isn't faster.


LasersHurt: I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance.


I have an account at CoinBase, a US based exchange. I don't store anything there because I want to remain in control of my wallet, but the exchange has its own fees which it uses for security.

Transferring bitcoin wallet to bitcoin wallet is the low-fee part and won't be changing. I believe they may be lowering it further.
 
2014-03-04 02:44:06 PM  

LasersHurt: Your last sentence is meaningless. I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance. All you do is assume it will be the same cost, because... you assume so.


Credit card transaction fees are like 3%. 1% of that I get back. How large do you think these fees are?
 
2014-03-04 02:44:23 PM  

Smackledorfer: Now you are just projecting.


Wow alright man thanks for playing.
 
2014-03-04 02:45:05 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: Your last sentence is meaningless. I was referring to the fees charged by the network itself, not service fees institutions might have to cover security and compliance. All you do is assume it will be the same cost, because... you assume so.

Credit card transaction fees are like 3%. 1% of that I get back. How large do you think these fees are?


How large do you think Bitcoin transaction fees are? Do you think they are percentage based?
 
2014-03-04 02:46:16 PM  
And just to repeat: I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I have yet to see a single bitcoin supporter, including you right here and now, explain what makes bitcoins better, in any way, than

Yes, some businesses take them. I might be inclined to as well if I ran a business and had a potential customer base that liked playing with novel fake money. That isn't the business taking the currency because it is better, it is the business taking the currency to increase market share. That is more akin to advertising in a "hey lets get these guys to buy from us instead of our competition" manner.
 
2014-03-04 02:47:32 PM  

LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: Now you are just projecting.

Wow alright man thanks for playing.


If I say something is good, I can tell you why.  If you cannot do the same, you've got nothing and you know it.
 
2014-03-04 02:47:49 PM  

Smackledorfer: And just to repeat: I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I have yet to see a single bitcoin supporter, including you right here and now, explain what makes bitcoins better, in any way, than

Yes, some businesses take them. I might be inclined to as well if I ran a business and had a potential customer base that liked playing with novel fake money. That isn't the business taking the currency because it is better, it is the business taking the currency to increase market share. That is more akin to advertising in a "hey lets get these guys to buy from us instead of our competition" manner.


You are literally just ignoring what everyone says, or diagreeing as if your opinion were fact. The thread is filled with information on Bitcoin, and if it weren't, you could look it up. You're pretending you're being reasonable, but you and I and everyone else knows you're going out of your way to ignore what you hear because your mind is made up.
 
2014-03-04 02:48:25 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: Now you are just projecting.

Wow alright man thanks for playing.

If I say something is good, I can tell you why.  If you cannot do the same, you've got nothing and you know it.


I told you several things, you just chose to ignore them. That's not the same.
 
2014-03-04 02:49:53 PM  

Smackledorfer: I am saying I don't know of any advantage that it does have.



It is anonymous and decentralized. There's the example of the Cypriots above as well, though that doesn't play for people in the US.

I think it's a facinating experiment and hope it succeeds in becoming mature without any government oversite. That is kind of it's whole point.
 
2014-03-04 02:57:36 PM  

mdeesnuts: It is anonymous and decentralized


Which does what for me? I'm not trying troll here, I'm honestly trying to figure out why this is an advantage.

mdeesnuts: I think it's a facinating experiment and hope it succeeds in becoming mature without any government oversite. That is kind of it's whole point.


Not so. LasersHurt says he wants regulation and security. You aren't going to get that without government of some kind (and yes, government, with all the pros and cons of a "real" government, can exist without a bordered state).

LasersHurt: diagreeing as if your opinion were fact.


The only supported advantage you have mentioned in this entire thread is transaction fees, and that is only an advantage over credit cards. I mentioned there are other ways of making fast online transactions without using a credit card, which you completely ignored.  On top of that, you yourself mentioned people buying amazon gift cards with bit coins.  Wow, awesome, I can spend my US Dollars on Bitcoins, and then use the bitcoins to buy the amazon gift card, that way I can do what? Take advantage of the cheap transaction fees and "faster" transaction speed pros of the bitcoin?
 
2014-03-04 02:58:28 PM  

Smackledorfer: The only supported advantage you have mentioned in this entire thread is transaction fees, and that is only an advantage over credit cards.


Do you know ANYTHING?
 
2014-03-04 03:02:14 PM  

LesserEvil: Again, people who do not understand cryptos seem to think they can speak about it.


Dummy: I understand crypography just damned fine.  I was alleging the basic skills necessary to "protect yourself" are out of the grasp of the majority of people making the currency doomed to continually face scenarios like this one or shrink down to the core believers.
 
2014-03-04 03:05:35 PM  

ikanreed: LesserEvil: Again, people who do not understand cryptos seem to think they can speak about it.

Dummy: I understand crypography just damned fine.  I was alleging the basic skills necessary to "protect yourself" are out of the grasp of the majority of people making the currency doomed to continually face scenarios like this one or shrink down to the core believers.


"cryptos" generally refers to CryptoCurriencies.

Since the basic skills needed are to copy a file to a drive, we don't buy the latter point.
 
2014-03-04 03:12:33 PM  

LesserEvil: I find it odd that so many people have an irrational hatred of cryptocurrency, as if BTC broke into their houses and pissed on their cornflakes every morning for the last year.


Point of order: it's "pissed in their corn flakes." In, not on.

People don't like crypto currencies because most people don't like playing "let's pretend" with their wealth. That's not an indictment against them, as the same applies to other, non-commodities, forms of trading, such as stocks and bonds. History, of course, demonstrates that pretend wealth is often more powerful than actual wealth.

Looked at in that light, the only thing "new" about CCs is the application of technology that goes with them - technology that has proven time and again vulnerable to the unscrupulous, and sooner or later will result in a rather destructive fraud event. Again, just like its non-technological counterparts. What will be more interesting is to see how virtual currencies shake out after the event.
 
2014-03-04 03:12:38 PM  

LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: The only supported advantage you have mentioned in this entire thread is transaction fees, and that is only an advantage over credit cards.

Do you know ANYTHING?


LasersHurt:  diagreeing as if your opinion were fact.


And you wonder why I accuse you of projection.

Just how high do you believe a debit transaction fee is? Why would a similar process not be involved when, as you've already said, regulation and security is added to the bitcoin end of things.

LasersHurt: You are literally just ignoring what everyone says


There is that projection again. You've cherry picked every single comment of mine that you've responded to, pretending things I said were not said at all.


At this point you either have no argument to make, have no ability to explain your own thinking, or are too lazy to do so. The latter would be perfectly acceptable if you weren't getting your panties in a bunch that other people aren't making detailed enough arguments for you.  Its funny that you set a higher bar for other posters than you do for yourself.
 
2014-03-04 03:13:43 PM  

LasersHurt: ikanreed: LesserEvil: Again, people who do not understand cryptos seem to think they can speak about it.

Dummy: I understand crypography just damned fine.  I was alleging the basic skills necessary to "protect yourself" are out of the grasp of the majority of people making the currency doomed to continually face scenarios like this one or shrink down to the core believers.

"cryptos" generally refers to CryptoCurriencies.

Since the basic skills needed are to copy a file to a drive, we don't buy the latter point.


Fine, I understand the mechanics of bitcoins just fine too, Christ.  There is an encrypted data structure that is a wrapper for unique identifiers assigned and tracked through transactions by a distributed network of voluntary nodes, where each step involves a new private key encryption(belonging to the de facto holder, if not de jure) of the previous structure's entire envelope.  That private key allows decryption of enough information to allow a transaction to occur.

This is also not hard to understand.  There are some other relevant activities I don't care about the technical details of, like mining, splitting, tumbling, etc, but I understand the point of just fine.

I don't see what point blind accusations of ignorance is.  It just makes you sound like a teenager going "You just don't get it, dad!"
 
2014-03-04 03:15:26 PM  

Smackledorfer: mdeesnuts: It is anonymous and decentralized


Which does what for me? I'm not trying troll here, I'm honestly trying to figure out why this is an advantage.


Well, the anonymous part has to do with privacy. If you want a lecture on that just type "if you're not doing anything wrong" in the next NSA thread.

The decentralized part means you don't have the governement (or The Fed) monkeying with/controlling the currency. Of course people keep trying to monkey with Bitcoin, but it seems to be doing OK.

A quick search brought up this. You can see what the creators of bitcoin thought were good reasons to use it.
 
2014-03-04 03:15:57 PM  

Smackledorfer: Just how high do you believe a debit transaction fee is? Why would a similar process not be involved when, as you've already said, regulation and security is added to the bitcoin end of things.


You do not know the difference between a Bitcoin Transaction and an Exchange transaction. One has a fee for security, the other is a matter of network function. It is not a percentage. It is not large. It is not comparable to credit card fees.

You know nothing of what you speak. You need to do the research instead of trying to demand some person on the internet answer each of your questions, each more off-base than the last.

Educate yourself. It is no longer my job, I wash my hands of it.
 
2014-03-04 03:16:20 PM  

Carousel Beast: LesserEvil: I find it odd that so many people have an irrational hatred of cryptocurrency, as if BTC broke into their houses and pissed on their cornflakes every morning for the last year.

Point of order: it's "pissed in their corn flakes." In, not on.

People don't like crypto currencies because most people don't like playing "let's pretend" with their wealth. That's not an indictment against them, as the same applies to other, non-commodities, forms of trading, such as stocks and bonds. History, of course, demonstrates that pretend wealth is often more powerful than actual wealth.

Looked at in that light, the only thing "new" about CCs is the application of technology that goes with them - technology that has proven time and again vulnerable to the unscrupulous, and sooner or later will result in a rather destructive fraud event. Again, just like its non-technological counterparts. What will be more interesting is to see how virtual currencies shake out after the event.


I applaud you, sir.  It IS national grammar day, and I'm happy to see people are out there keeping prepositions in their place.  You get 2 bitcoins.  Or I can send it to you through paypal or your amazon account - whichever has the lowest transaction fees.
 
2014-03-04 03:17:50 PM  

ikanreed: I don't see what point blind accusations of ignorance is.


You kept acting like copying a file was too hard for users.

You were also the first to start calling people "True Believers."

It kind of seems/seemed like you were pretty ignorant of the concepts - it's not totally "blind."
 
2014-03-04 03:18:48 PM  

LasersHurt: You kept acting like copying a file was too hard for users.


Yes, if you've ever met users, you'd know this.
 
2014-03-04 03:20:06 PM  

ikanreed: LasersHurt: You kept acting like copying a file was too hard for users.

Yes, if you've ever met users, you'd know this.


I have. But the same user who can't handle a file copy would also just drop 50 bucks from their wallet and walk off, or give it to a Nigerian scammer. At some point you can't account for all of human stupidity.
 
2014-03-04 03:22:01 PM  

mdeesnuts: Smackledorfer: mdeesnuts: It is anonymous and decentralized


Which does what for me? I'm not trying troll here, I'm honestly trying to figure out why this is an advantage.

Well, the anonymous part has to do with privacy. If you want a lecture on that just type "if you're not doing anything wrong" in the next NSA thread.

The decentralized part means you don't have the governement (or The Fed) monkeying with/controlling the currency. Of course people keep trying to monkey with Bitcoin, but it seems to be doing OK.

A quick search brought up this. You can see what the creators of bitcoin thought were good reasons to use it.


Bitcoin is decentralized, yet 80% of existing coins are held by just 1% of users.

Heck, half of the coins are held by less than 1000 user accounts (and how many are owned by the same person?)

How the hell is this supposed to challenge the US Dollar when the user base is so small? Bitcoin will be lucky to challenge Discover card at this rate.
 
2014-03-04 03:22:45 PM  

dumbobruni: How the hell is this supposed to challenge the US Dollar when the user base is so small?


This doesn't feel like a silly question?
 
2014-03-04 03:22:56 PM  

LasersHurt: Since the basic skills needed are to copy a file to a drive, we don't buy the latter point.


And remember a password.

And make sure you don't accidentally install any key-logger.

Posts like this are common on Reddit:
BEWARE: BTC -e asks me to unlock 2 factor authorization after my logins fail and then subsequently all my coins are stolen
 
2014-03-04 03:23:12 PM  
Yeah, actually the other things you said need replies too.

LasersHurt: You were also the first to start calling people "True Believers."


Yeah, I didn't invent that term, and gosh-darn-it that accusation has nothing to do with understanding.  I can understand, say, Marxism, accuse someone of saying how communist revolution will end class struggle of being a "true believer" while having read and understand the communist manifesto and it's core tenets just fine.  You can do that with anyone whose belief in something exceeds all reason.

LasersHurt: It kind of seems/seemed like you were pretty ignorant of the concepts - it's not totally "blind."


Yeah, here we are, faced with the basic facts that I do understand the concepts just fine, you just go "Yep, it seemed that way because you criticized them".
 
2014-03-04 03:23:26 PM  

MythDragon: Sin_City_Superhero: And that's why I ONLY use gold doubloons.

[pcgmedia.com image 850x478]

I conduct all trade in military grade surplus ammunition


Don't you hate it when you forget to save and hit the wrong key burning people up and you're like "man I really owned those guys, oh god damnit!"
 
2014-03-04 03:25:05 PM  

ikanreed: Yeah, actually the other things you said need replies too.

LasersHurt: You were also the first to start calling people "True Believers."

Yeah, I didn't invent that term, and gosh-darn-it that accusation has nothing to do with understanding.  I can understand, say, Marxism, accuse someone of saying how communist revolution will end class struggle of being a "true believer" while having read and understand the communist manifesto and it's core tenets just fine.  You can do that with anyone whose belief in something exceeds all reason.

LasersHurt: It kind of seems/seemed like you were pretty ignorant of the concepts - it's not totally "blind."

Yeah, here we are, faced with the basic facts that I do understand the concepts just fine, you just go "Yep, it seemed that way because you criticized them".


Surely you understand how time works? You seemed ignorant because of the things you said. After clarifying you do not sound as ignorant, of course.

Still use names to dismiss people, but we've all got personal failings. I'm a smartass.
 
2014-03-04 03:25:27 PM  
Bitcoin. It's like regular dollars, only ten times more complicated.
I wonder why it hasn't caught on.
 
2014-03-04 03:27:22 PM  
I have worked in call centers.  I've done newspaper sales, cell phone tech support, DirecTV installation and customer support.

I have also worked at what is arguably one of the seediest adult bookstores west of the Mississippi, where I was regularly robbed, assaulted, forced to be complicit in methamphetamine dealing, had to clean jizz and AIDS-infected needles and oceans of piss with islands of feces out of the arcade every single night, worked every Christmas and Thanksgiving, received constant perverted phone calls and unwanted advances, got called a f*gott by passing cars every time I swept the parking lot, had to smile and be professional to pedophiles (which kind of fell apart towards the end and led to me finally leaving), had to smile and be professional to the police, and even encountered a human corpse or two.

I held out at that adult bookstore job for over four damn years.

Couldn't stomach any of the call center ones for more than 12 months.
 
2014-03-04 03:27:48 PM  

LasersHurt: You do not know the difference between a Bitcoin Transaction and an Exchange transaction. One has a fee for security, the other is a matter of network function. It is not a percentage. It is not large. It is not comparable to credit card fees.


You didn't address "Why would a similar process not be involved when, as you've already said, regulation and security is added"?
 
2014-03-04 03:29:15 PM  

LasersHurt: Surely you understand how time works? You seemed ignorant because of the things you said. After clarifying you do not sound as ignorant, of course.


Oh yeah, please, highlight the gross oversight I made in mechanics.  The posts I made earlier made it clear I thought there was a spectrum from being forced to be technically competent at all times to protect your money, or putting your trust in a third party that can have catastrophic failure out of your control.  That assertion reflects exactly zero ignorance of the currency.

I fall back on the assertion that you're a true believer, in that you clearly and implicitly think that anyone who thinks bitcoin is a bad idea "just doesn't get it".  This behavior is exactly in line with true believers of every stripe.
 
2014-03-04 03:34:42 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: You do not know the difference between a Bitcoin Transaction and an Exchange transaction. One has a fee for security, the other is a matter of network function. It is not a percentage. It is not large. It is not comparable to credit card fees.

You didn't address "Why would a similar process not be involved when, as you've already said, regulation and security is added"?


Because when you are exchanging bitcoin directly the security is a part of the process. The security issue most people worry about is at currency exchanges, most of which create their own fees to cover security. Regulation will probably follow.

When using bitcoin as the currency, you only pay network transaction fees, which are very small and flat.

Teal Deer the costs are different because the nature of transactions are different.

ikanreed: Oh yeah, please, highlight the gross oversight I made in mechanics.


The first thing you did is dismiss anyone who disagreed with you by namecalling. That alone makes people distrust your understanding and objectivity.

ikanreed: I fall back on the assertion that you're a true believer, in that you clearly and implicitly think that anyone who thinks bitcoin is a bad idea "just doesn't get it".


No, no. Just you. You're confusing "my opinion on everyone" with "my opinion on you." I've spoken to several people quite plainly about things like the pretty useless nature of the "work" behind the currency, etc. I only see Bitcoin for what it is - a novel, useful exchange system based on open ledgers and open software.
 
2014-03-04 03:35:01 PM  

LasersHurt: dumbobruni: How the hell is this supposed to challenge the US Dollar when the user base is so small?

This doesn't feel like a silly question?


And not only is the user base small, they have very little incentives to spend them.

As Bitcoin goes up in value, the hoarding will only get worse. And without spending it, how can it be used as a medium for payments?
 
2014-03-04 03:35:04 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: You do not know the difference between a Bitcoin Transaction and an Exchange transaction. One has a fee for security, the other is a matter of network function. It is not a percentage. It is not large. It is not comparable to credit card fees.

You didn't address "Why would a similar process not be involved when, as you've already said, regulation and security is added"?


Oh I see the problem. LasersHurt doesn't understand real money transactions.

The "fee for security" and for "network function" are all tied together.
 
2014-03-04 03:36:23 PM  

ikanreed: LasersHurt: Surely you understand how time works? You seemed ignorant because of the things you said. After clarifying you do not sound as ignorant, of course.

Oh yeah, please, highlight the gross oversight I made in mechanics.  The posts I made earlier made it clear I thought there was a spectrum from being forced to be technically competent at all times to protect your money, or putting your trust in a third party that can have catastrophic failure out of your control.  That assertion reflects exactly zero ignorance of the currency.

I fall back on the assertion that you're a true believer, in that you clearly and implicitly think that anyone who thinks bitcoin is a bad idea "just doesn't get it".  This behavior is exactly in line with true believers of every stripe.


You obviously dont understand how it works. Study it out!
 
2014-03-04 03:38:50 PM  

dumbobruni: LasersHurt: dumbobruni: How the hell is this supposed to challenge the US Dollar when the user base is so small?

This doesn't feel like a silly question?

And not only is the user base small, they have very little incentives to spend them.

As Bitcoin goes up in value, the hoarding will only get worse. And without spending it, how can it be used as a medium for payments?


Dunno. They'll need to figure that out. I would think that's more of a problem when it's new, because early adopters hold large amounts. If it reaches ubiquity it's kind of pointless if you don't spend it.

impaler: impaler: LasersHurt: You do not know the difference between a Bitcoin Transaction and an Exchange transaction. One has a fee for security, the other is a matter of network function. It is not a percentage. It is not large. It is not comparable to credit card fees.

You didn't address "Why would a similar process not be involved when, as you've already said, regulation and security is added"?

Oh I see the problem. LasersHurt doesn't understand real money transactions.

The "fee for security" and for "network function" are all tied together.


I explained that there are two different things in play; I don't know why you don't understand this, and I particularly don't understand why you think it's valid to say "the costs would be the same." Bitcoin /= current transaction methods.

Why? Based on what?
 
2014-03-04 03:40:20 PM  

LasersHurt: Because when you are exchanging bitcoin directly the security is a part of the process. The security issue most people worry about is at currency exchanges, most of which create their own fees to cover security. Regulation will probably follow.

When using bitcoin as the currency, you only pay network transaction fees, which are very small and flat.


No one is talking about fees on exchanges. They're talking about using a secure system where if you buy something, and the seller doesn't respond, you have a means to recoup your money.

A system that doesn't require you to boot to a dedicated clean install of BSD to manage your coins.

If I buy from overstock.com with bitcoins, I can't get my money back. I just get company credit. If I buy with real money, I can get it back.
 
2014-03-04 03:41:33 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: Because when you are exchanging bitcoin directly the security is a part of the process. The security issue most people worry about is at currency exchanges, most of which create their own fees to cover security. Regulation will probably follow.

When using bitcoin as the currency, you only pay network transaction fees, which are very small and flat.

No one is talking about fees on exchanges. They're talking about using a secure system where if you buy something, and the seller doesn't respond, you have a means to recoup your money.

A system that doesn't require you to boot to a dedicated clean install of BSD to manage your coins.

If I buy from overstock.com with bitcoins, I can't get my money back. I just get company credit. If I buy with real money, I can get it back.


You asked me about transaction fees. That has nothing to do with Overstock's return policy. Or BSD.

You can refund someone BTC if you want, it's easy.
 
2014-03-04 03:42:33 PM  

LasersHurt: I explained that there are two different things in play; I don't know why you don't understand this, and I particularly don't understand why you think it's valid to say "the costs would be the same." Bitcoin /= current transaction methods.

Why? Based on what?


The costs won't be the same. They will be higher. It's harder to get spent bitcoins back than it is to get spent dollars. That costs more to insure, resulting in higher fees.
 
2014-03-04 03:43:23 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: I explained that there are two different things in play; I don't know why you don't understand this, and I particularly don't understand why you think it's valid to say "the costs would be the same." Bitcoin /= current transaction methods.

Why? Based on what?

The costs won't be the same. They will be higher. It's harder to get spent bitcoins back than it is to get spent dollars. That costs more to insure, resulting in higher fees.


Based on "I made this up just now" ?
 
2014-03-04 03:43:57 PM  

LasersHurt: You can refund someone BTC if you want, it's easy.


Than why doesn't overstock do that?

(Answer: the price volatility makes it prohibitive)
 
2014-03-04 03:47:13 PM  

LasersHurt: impaler: LasersHurt: I explained that there are two different things in play; I don't know why you don't understand this, and I particularly don't understand why you think it's valid to say "the costs would be the same." Bitcoin /= current transaction methods.

Why? Based on what?

The costs won't be the same. They will be higher. It's harder to get spent bitcoins back than it is to get spent dollars. That costs more to insure, resulting in higher fees.

Based on "I made this up just now" ?


No. Based on math. Unlike dollar transactions, bitcoin transactions are non-reversible. This means there is greater counter-party risk. Greater risk costs more to insure.
 
2014-03-04 03:47:24 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: You can refund someone BTC if you want, it's easy.

Than why doesn't overstock do that?

(Answer: the price volatility makes it prohibitive)


You realize now that you're purposely veering away from your earlier claims right? You asked about the fees.

Tell you what, you tell me what it costs to send $.12 worth of BTC from the US to the Ukraine, then $12 Million. Then calculate the fees for any variety of bank transactions for the same thing.
 
2014-03-04 03:48:00 PM  

impaler: No. Based on math.


I look forward to your math.
 
2014-03-04 03:48:03 PM  

LasersHurt: The first thing you did is dismiss anyone who disagreed with you by namecalling. That alone makes people distrust your understanding and objectivity.


I see, so your feelings were hurt?  I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.
 
2014-03-04 03:50:50 PM  
Came for Clerks, leaving extremely disappointed.
 
2014-03-04 03:51:17 PM  

mdeesnuts: Of course people keep trying to monkey with Bitcoin, but it seems to be doing OK.


It seems fairly volatile for something that is superior in the monkeying-around department.
 
2014-03-04 03:52:51 PM  

Smackledorfer: The only supported advantage you have mentioned in this entire thread is transaction fees, and that is only an advantage over credit cards.


Ok, here's another. If I visit a store and pay with my debit card, I must trust the store to safeguard my information.  If you shopped at Target late last year, you know that is not always a safe bet.  Target stores your card number, your name, your PIN, etc.  With this information, nefarious people can access your bank account.  The fact that you stand to be reimbursed for that theft is little consolation to people who's mortgage payment bounced due to their accounts being siphoned.

Let's compare that to a Bitcoin payment scenario. I visit a retailer (not Target yet, but a Bitcoin accepting retailer). I make my purchase by snapping a QR code with my phone, tap my password in, and accept the charge.  The retailer gets ONLY that payment. They do not get any information that would allow them (or a nefarious hacker) to access any further funds.
 
2014-03-04 03:53:34 PM  

dumbobruni: Bitcoin is decentralized, yet 80% of existing coins are held by just 1% of users.

Heck, half of the coins are held by less than 1000 user accounts (and how many are owned by the same person?)

How the hell is this supposed to challenge the US Dollar when the user base is so small? Bitcoin will be lucky to challenge Discover card at this rate.


A shot in the dark here, but I'd imagine as the number of users grow the wealth concentration would decrease. It'd' be kind of cool to be able to use them at Walgreens or Dollar General like you can PayPal now if it becomes truly mainstream (like it is starting to in some places).

Maybe not though. It's still in the experimental stage in my eyes and I enjoy the ebb and flow of watching it play out. Stuff like MtGox was bound to happen and will happen again. Bitcoin users will demand better security (or vet their 'bankers' more) or they'll stop using it.

If the marketplace that accpets BTC grows enough I may start mining just to participate.
 
2014-03-04 03:53:59 PM  

LasersHurt: Tell you what, you tell me what it costs to send $.12 worth of BTC from the US to the Ukraine, then $12 Million. Then calculate the fees for any variety of bank transactions for the same thing.


Around $.1 to $.5, depending on how much transaction fee you use.

Remittance. You've finally brought up something bitcoin is good for. Too bad it isn't really an issue for most people.

Now am I ever going to send millions of dollars without some sort of insurance? Fuk no!
 
2014-03-04 03:58:34 PM  
imageshack.com
 
2014-03-04 03:58:59 PM  

Chameleon: Debeo Summa Credo: But why does the "productive power and financial potential" of a country give any more value to a fiat currency? If nobody will accept my $20 bill, how do I trade it in for $20 worth of GDP? If i bring it to down to the treasury will Jacob Lew give me some steel and wheat? How much steel and wheat?

Yeah, but the same can be said for gold, silver, shiny beads, giant stone coins, etc.  No currency has any value beyond what you can trade it for.  That's why I started my petition to back the US dollar with potatoes.

/yes, I know that gold has use in electronics but that is not traditionally what its value is based on.  Its value is based on "ooh, shiny!"


Not quite.  The BBC did a very interesting piece on why gold is viewed as a currency.  http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25255957
 
2014-03-04 03:59:42 PM  

Belias: Ok, here's another. If I visit a store and pay with my debit card, I must trust the store to safeguard my information.  If you shopped at Target late last year, you know that is not always a safe bet.  Target stores your card number, your name, your PIN, etc.  With this information, nefarious people can access your bank account.  The fact that you stand to be reimbursed for that theft is little consolation to people who's mortgage payment bounced due to their accounts being siphoned.

Let's compare that to a Bitcoin payment scenario. I visit a retailer (not Target yet, but a Bitcoin accepting retailer). I make my purchase by snapping a QR code with my phone, tap my password in, and accept the charge.  The retailer gets ONLY that payment. They do not get any information that would allow them (or a nefarious hacker) to access any further funds.


Yeah, the fact they don't lose any money is little consolation for the security breach. Now take bitcoin, where if someone hacks your phone they get all your money and you never get it back.

Security advantage bitcoin!

This is why you idiots are called "true believers."

"But but but, the underlying protocol is secure!"

imgs.xkcd.com
 
2014-03-04 04:00:39 PM  

LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: Just how high do you believe a debit transaction fee is? Why would a similar process not be involved when, as you've already said, regulation and security is added to the bitcoin end of things.

You do not know the difference between a Bitcoin Transaction and an Exchange transaction. One has a fee for security, the other is a matter of network function. It is not a percentage. It is not large. It is not comparable to credit card fees.

You know nothing of what you speak. You need to do the research instead of trying to demand some person on the internet answer each of your questions, each more off-base than the last.

Educate yourself. It is no longer my job, I wash my hands of it.


The person who doesn't understand is you. You want to discuss the cost of doing business while ignoring all the costs of doing business.

With US Dollars I give up things to my bank so that they will take on the cost of transactions, which they then charge businesses for, who pass some of that cost on to me.

With Bitcoins, the cost of doing business includes converting the dollar to the coin (or mining, which if I understand correctly is going to put me at a loss unless I have a special rig for it), then moving wallet to wallet, and then the business converting back to the dollar.  Both my end prior to the purchase and the business' end prior to the cash out result in a risk from the volatility of the bitcoins value itself.

But sure, if the ONLY thing you want to discuss is person A pulling a bitcoin out of their wallet and putting it in the wallet of person B, and if that is all you meant, then fair enough. You are correct on that count. So now we have:
1. It is novel.
2. One portion of the costs involved with using it is superior.

Great, what a wonderful currency, and certainly something I and others shouldn't be mocking.


Now I believe the other point you made was speed.  What is the speed advantage, to either me or a business, over a credit/debit/gift card/paypal transaction? Don't forget to weigh it against the time of going from $ to Bitcoin to $ for me and the business.  I know you'd want to ignore that, but as long as the value isn't stable, no business would wish to sit on the coins, and if they are sitting on the coins, then the gains in speed relative to a credit payment seems irrelevant.
 
2014-03-04 04:01:33 PM  
Thats just straight financial darwinism right there folks.  For instance, I've just liquidated my entire pension to play off-shore on-line Poker cuz its a known fact that foreigners don't know diddly about playing American Poker.

The rich get richer sheeple.
 
2014-03-04 04:02:32 PM  

Smackledorfer: The person who doesn't understand is you.


Uh huh.
 
2014-03-04 04:03:26 PM  
Pyramid scheme.
 
2014-03-04 04:04:33 PM  

LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: The person who doesn't understand is you.

Uh huh.


So we're finally all in agreement.
 
2014-03-04 04:06:22 PM  

LasersHurt: impaler: No. Based on math.

I look forward to your math.


I've yet to see any of yours.

Again, it is fine to agree to disagree without turning threads into a research paper, but not if one party is doing what you are here. You provide nothing yourself, but set a high bar for everyone else.  Even when you are the one making a claim or assertion, your default setting is 'I am right because I said it, and they are wrong until they present me with a doctoral thesis'
 
2014-03-04 04:06:26 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: The person who doesn't understand is you.

Uh huh.

So we're finally all in agreement.


I have no interest in teaching him the very basics about Bitcoin. He wants me to answer his questions, but they're always partially invalid because they rely on a misunderstanding of the concept. Trying to explain that means he just goes "you can't answer the questions ha I win."

You've not been a peach either, but at least you seem smart enough to talk about it.
 
2014-03-04 04:07:06 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: impaler: No. Based on math.

I look forward to your math.

I've yet to see any of yours.


https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
 
2014-03-04 04:07:45 PM  

SonOfSpam: Pyramid scheme.


It's even written into the code and design, but it won't just end in one last fraud like your typical pyramid scheme.  Nope, it'll be libertarian wackos who think it solves some [I'd say unspecified, but I can think of quite a few specified yet nonsensical ones] problem in financial markets infinitely preying on each other like in eve.
 
2014-03-04 04:09:33 PM  

LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: impaler: No. Based on math.

I look forward to your math.

I've yet to see any of yours.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees


Just how high do you believe a debit transaction fee is? Why would a similar process not be involved when, as you've already said, regulation and security is added to the bitcoin end of things.

How is this "security" going to be paid for?
 
2014-03-04 04:10:11 PM  

ikanreed: SonOfSpam: Pyramid scheme.

It's even written into the code and design, but it won't just end in one last fraud like your typical pyramid scheme.  Nope, it'll be libertarian wackos who think it solves some [I'd say unspecified, but I can think of quite a few specified yet nonsensical ones] problem in financial markets infinitely preying on each other like in eve.


Alternatively, circle jerk?
 
2014-03-04 04:11:01 PM  

impaler: LasersHurt: Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: impaler: No. Based on math.

I look forward to your math.

I've yet to see any of yours.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

Just how high do you believe a debit transaction fee is? Why would a similar process not be involved when, as you've already said, regulation and security is added to the bitcoin end of things.

How is this "security" going to be paid for?


Why are you asking this as if it's hypothetical? I gave you the transaction costs there. You told me you didn't want to hear about exchanges, but if you DO suddenly want that, go to ANY of their websites and they tell you the fees.

Try CoinBase.com, it's US based and touts bank-level security. Have a look instead of demanding I tell you.
 
2014-03-04 04:11:58 PM  

impaler: Now take bitcoin, where if someone hacks your phone they get all your money and you never get it back.


My post listed an advantage of Bitcoin. Your post does not address this advantage, and instead offers another scenario "phone hacked" that is a perceived disadvantage.  I'll take that as a concession that my post shows a valid advantage.

Having never had a virus, trojan, or hacking incident of any kind, I'll gladly be responsible for making sure my phone isn't "hacked".  Hint: stay away from installing programs that pop up when you visit porn sites. It's really not that hard.
 
2014-03-04 04:13:51 PM  

Belias: Smackledorfer: The only supported advantage you have mentioned in this entire thread is transaction fees, and that is only an advantage over credit cards.

Ok, here's another. If I visit a store and pay with my debit card, I must trust the store to safeguard my information.  If you shopped at Target late last year, you know that is not always a safe bet.  Target stores your card number, your name, your PIN, etc.  With this information, nefarious people can access your bank account.  The fact that you stand to be reimbursed for that theft is little consolation to people who's mortgage payment bounced due to their accounts being siphoned.

Let's compare that to a Bitcoin payment scenario. I visit a retailer (not Target yet, but a Bitcoin accepting retailer). I make my purchase by snapping a QR code with my phone, tap my password in, and accept the charge.  The retailer gets ONLY that payment. They do not get any information that would allow them (or a nefarious hacker) to access any further funds.


This is true.  Which is why I, and many others, keep multiple accounts and don't keep huge amounts of money tied to a debit card. My mortgage is auto-payed out of a different account than my debit card is attached to.

It seems silly to support something as requiring of extra effort as the Bitcoin and then compare it directly to only one of many alternatives being used in the laziest way possible. Or do I overestimate the measures required to safely manage your bitcoins? It certainly doesn't sound like less work than managing multiple banking accounts through a major bank.

Also, cash is certainly an option. Could I be robbed? Sure, but honestly any cash I carry is worth less than my cell phone already, not to mention the cost in time and money to replace all the bits in my wallet.
 
2014-03-04 04:14:48 PM  

Belias: Having never had a virus, trojan, or hacking incident of any kind, I'll gladly be responsible for making sure my phone isn't "hacked".  Hint: stay away from installing programs that pop up when you visit porn sites. It's really not that hard.


Nice phone there.

us.123rf.com

Be a shame if something happened to the person holding it.

/sneaker net is not secure. Physical access methods and social engineering are highly effective zero day exploits.
 
2014-03-04 04:17:52 PM  

LasersHurt: Why are you asking this as if it's hypothetical?


You must be trolling.

Well played I guess.
 
2014-03-04 04:18:23 PM  

hardinparamedic: Belias: Having never had a virus, trojan, or hacking incident of any kind, I'll gladly be responsible for making sure my phone isn't "hacked".  Hint: stay away from installing programs that pop up when you visit porn sites. It's really not that hard.

Nice phone there.

[us.123rf.com image 300x450]

Be a shame if something happened to the person holding it.

/sneaker net is not secure. Physical access methods and social engineering are highly effective zero day exploits.


That's kind of a good way to get anything from a person though, be it money, devices, or information.
 
2014-03-04 04:19:24 PM  

Smackledorfer: LasersHurt: Why are you asking this as if it's hypothetical?

You must be trolling.

Well played I guess.


Yes, you're incapable of understanding the basic things I've said, so I'm trolling. That's how that works.
 
2014-03-04 04:20:53 PM  

LasersHurt: I explained that there are two different things in play; I don't know why you don't understand this, and I particularly don't understand why you think it's valid to say "the costs would be the same." Bitcoin /= current transaction methods.


The transaction costs for bitcoin are much, much higher as the network has to validate the ever-growing blockchains in the transaction.  The costs are simply distributed across the network at this point, so nobody really feels it, but it is certainly.  There's also an issue that if bitcoin ever were to get as popular as the USD, the blockchains and their validation would get absolutely stupid, making the costs go up further.
 
2014-03-04 04:23:05 PM  

OptionC: LasersHurt: I explained that there are two different things in play; I don't know why you don't understand this, and I particularly don't understand why you think it's valid to say "the costs would be the same." Bitcoin /= current transaction methods.

The transaction costs for bitcoin are much, much higher as the network has to validate the ever-growing blockchains in the transaction.  The costs are simply distributed across the network at this point, so nobody really feels it, but it is certainly.  There's also an issue that if bitcoin ever were to get as popular as the USD, the blockchains and their validation would get absolutely stupid, making the costs go up further.


Assuming nothing changes about the protocol over that amount of time, perhaps.
 
2014-03-04 04:28:57 PM  

Belias: My post listed an advantage of Bitcoin. Your post does not address this advantage, and instead offers another scenario "phone hacked" that is a perceived disadvantage.  I'll take that as a concession that my post shows a valid advantage.


So "phone hacked" is a different scenario than "Target hacked"

Ok.
 
2014-03-04 04:33:02 PM  

Belias: Having never had a virus, trojan, or hacking incident of any kind, I'll gladly be responsible for making sure my phone isn't "hacked".  Hint: stay away from installing programs that pop up when you visit porn sites. It's really not that hard.


How would you know you never had malware installed?
 
2014-03-04 05:22:57 PM  

Belias: Smackledorfer: The only supported advantage you have mentioned in this entire thread is transaction fees, and that is only an advantage over credit cards.

Ok, here's another. If I visit a store and pay with my debit card, I must trust the store to safeguard my information.  If you shopped at Target late last year, you know that is not always a safe bet.  Target stores your card number, your name, your PIN, etc.  With this information, nefarious people can access your bank account.  The fact that you stand to be reimbursed for that theft is little consolation to people who's mortgage payment bounced due to their accounts being siphoned.

Let's compare that to a Bitcoin payment scenario. I visit a retailer (not Target yet, but a Bitcoin accepting retailer). I make my purchase by snapping a QR code with my phone, tap my password in, and accept the charge.  The retailer gets ONLY that payment. They do not get any information that would allow them (or a nefarious hacker) to access any further funds.


The scenario you describe is how Venmo works (PayPal just bought Venmo) but for plain old dollars.

Bitcoin as an alternative to visa is fine. But as a payment alternative AND as a tradeable asset class? Won't work.
 
2014-03-04 05:24:42 PM  

talkertopc: 3 years in a call center got me PTSD so no thanks. OK, slight exaggeration, only one hell of an anxiety disorder.


You sound like you didn't catch on quickly. Management likes anxiety disorders developed in weeks not years! Now get back to work...

/worked 3 call centers for a total of 8 years
 
2014-03-04 05:37:24 PM  

Sliding Carp: K3rmy: For those who work in call centers, the other thing to do is pick a stupid word of the day.  This would be a word that should have NO BUSINESS being spoken during your call but you have to find a way to do so.  Bonus points for creativity.  Now the word does not have to be profane or vulgar.  Just inappropriate.  Like "Watermelon", "Aardvark", "Disco" or "Pantyhose" in a inbound technical support call center.

"Let's see what version of the software you're running meow."


Asking me where your order is, is like watching an aardvark wearing pantyhose in a disco, sir, while it might be entertaining, it doesn't make sense. Let's contact the shipper and find out, and get the aardvark back to eating watermelon.
 
2014-03-04 06:05:15 PM  

ikanreed: Tell me, if the hard drive that had your .wallet crashed, how much would you have?


Tell me, if the mattress you stuffed your cash in burns up in a house fire, how much would you have?

Dollars are worthless since you can set them on fire.
 
2014-03-04 06:36:03 PM  

umad: Dollars are worthless since you can set them on fire.


And yet I can go buy groceries and see a movie that night with dollars.....
 
2014-03-04 06:39:59 PM  

hardinparamedic: umad: Dollars are worthless since you can set them on fire.

And yet I can go buy groceries and see a movie that night with dollars.....


Doesn't matter. They can be destroyed or taken from you, so they are worthless. I'm just following the derp logic of the thread.

/you can buy shiat with bitcoins too btw.
 
2014-03-04 06:52:41 PM  

LasersHurt: The thread is filled with information on Bitcoin


In fact, it is not. We weirdo's are still waiting for a compeling reason as to why your "virtual money" has any value (other than to the Minecraft crowd).
 
2014-03-04 06:54:10 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: LasersHurt: The thread is filled with information on Bitcoin

In fact, it is not. We weirdo's are still waiting for a compeling reason as to why your "virtual money" has any value (other than to the Minecraft crowd).


And you can find any number of places on the internet which are explicitly designed to explain this to you. If you have any actual interest, look it up.
 
2014-03-04 06:58:55 PM  

ikanreed: LesserEvil: Again, people who do not understand cryptos seem to think they can speak about it.

Dummy: I understand crypography just damned fine.  I was alleging the basic skills necessary to "protect yourself" are out of the grasp of the majority of people making the currency doomed to continually face scenarios like this one or shrink down to the core believers.


THIS.

Thread over.
 
2014-03-04 07:00:30 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: LasersHurt: The thread is filled with information on Bitcoin

In fact, it is not. We weirdo's are still waiting for a compeling reason as to why your "virtual money" has any value (other than to the Minecraft crowd).


How about buying computer parts from a major vendor?

How about a growing number of retailers?

Insisting something that can be exchanged for goods or services is worthless is just stupid.
 
2014-03-04 07:05:19 PM  

umad: hardinparamedic: umad: Dollars are worthless since you can set them on fire.

And yet I can go buy groceries and see a movie that night with dollars.....

Doesn't matter. They can be destroyed or taken from you, so they are worthless. I'm just following the derp logic of the thread.

/you can buy shiat with bitcoins too btw.


Except for the fact that "saving your money in your mattress" is universally seen as a bad idea, yet that is what is actually recommended for bitcoin.
 
2014-03-04 07:07:18 PM  

umad: /you can buy shiat with bitcoins too btw.


I don't have any use for a key of coke, or mexican Viagra. Or an AK-47 from Uganda. Or some Ukranian Kiddie porn.

Oh, look at that. One BitCoin "ATM" in Austin, Tx, and one in Vancouver.

Man, that sure makes it more convienent than using my US Dollar.
 
2014-03-04 07:16:27 PM  

LasersHurt: I wash my hands of it.


Pontious P., are you?
 
2014-03-04 07:17:11 PM  

hardinparamedic: umad: /you can buy shiat with bitcoins too btw.

I don't have any use for a key of coke, or mexican Viagra. Or an AK-47 from Uganda. Or some Ukranian Kiddie porn.

Oh, look at that. One BitCoin "ATM" in Austin, Tx, and one in Vancouver.

Man, that sure makes it more convienent than using my US Dollar.


LesserEvil: MelGoesOnTour: LasersHurt: The thread is filled with information on Bitcoin

In fact, it is not. We weirdo's are still waiting for a compeling reason as to why your "virtual money" has any value (other than to the Minecraft crowd).

How about buying computer parts from a major vendor?

How about a growing number of retailers?

Insisting something that can be exchanged for goods or services is worthless is just stupid.



Try paying attention once and a while, instead of plugging your ears and going "La LA La LA  La LA  La LA" and repeating your lies.

I bet you can even buy some MLP bed sheets for your bedroom with BTC.
 
2014-03-04 07:19:44 PM  

hardinparamedic: umad: /you can buy shiat with bitcoins too btw.

I don't have any use for a key of coke, or mexican Viagra. Or an AK-47 from Uganda. Or some Ukranian Kiddie porn.

Oh, look at that. One BitCoin "ATM" in Austin, Tx, and one in Vancouver.

Man, that sure makes it more convienent than using my US Dollar.


Nobody is saying you have to stop using dollars, so calm your tits.
 
2014-03-04 07:22:16 PM  

LasersHurt: impaler: No. Based on math.

I look forward to your math.


You're either trolling (in which case I award you the Big Fish) or you're just being an asshole right now. Not sure which it is BUT it's fun to see it play out.   :)
 
2014-03-04 07:25:04 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: LasersHurt: impaler: No. Based on math.

I look forward to your math.

You're either trolling (in which case I award you the Big Fish) or you're just being an asshole right now. Not sure which it is BUT it's fun to see it play out.   :)


Hours later, you decide I'm "trolling or an asshole." Thanks for coming to the thread big guy, you're an asset to the team.
 
2014-03-04 07:44:44 PM  

LesserEvil: Try paying attention once and a while, instead of plugging your ears and going "La LA La LA La LA La LA" and repeating your lies.


Oh, cool. TigerDirect can rip me off in BitCoins just as much as USD.
Nice to know.

And your directory site comes up blank.

Yet, somehow, can't fill up my car with gas. Can't go see a movie. Can't go buy groceries. Can't pay my taxes, light bill, or water bill.

You know, useful things.

/it's not "Lah lah lah". It's "your sideshow act is no use to me".
 
2014-03-04 08:08:12 PM  

hardinparamedic: LesserEvil: Try paying attention once and a while, instead of plugging your ears and going "La LA La LA La LA La LA" and repeating your lies.

Oh, cool. TigerDirect can rip me off in BitCoins just as much as USD.
Nice to know.

And your directory site comes up blank.

Yet, somehow, can't fill up my car with gas. Can't go see a movie. Can't go buy groceries. Can't pay my taxes, light bill, or water bill.

You know, useful things.

/it's not "Lah lah lah". It's "your sideshow act is no use to me".


Well, it's not my fault you can't operate a browser. The directory lists over 600 businesses that deal in BitCoin, none of them dealing in illegal goods.

As for this sideshow, why do you feel threatened enough by Bitcoin to hop into every thread and disparage it? I don't jump into your MLP threads to troll bronies, nor do I get upset when bronies don't share my opinions of a little girls' cartoon and the men who follow it rapturously. Frankly, I'll take a bitcoin over an MLP playset any day, you are free to value that playset over a cryptocurrency that you fail to understand.
 
2014-03-04 08:17:15 PM  
Hm, doesn't it connect directly to the Suicide Prevention Hotline? Why would they need more people at MtGox for fielding calls?
 
2014-03-04 08:21:30 PM  

LesserEvil: Well, it's not my fault you can't operate a browser. The directory lists over 600 businesses that deal in BitCoin, none of them dealing in illegal goods.


Don't really care. There are over 57 million licensed businesses in the United States that I can spend a US dollar on, and they'll take it for the value of a US dollar.

Not for a currency which is environmentally devistating and, while an interesting application of both mathematics and terrifying naivety, serves me no purpose in a First World Country. Absolutely none.

LesserEvil: As for this sideshow, why do you feel threatened enough by Bitcoin to hop into every thread and disparage it? I don't jump into your MLP threads to troll bronies, nor do I get upset when bronies don't share my opinions of a little girls' cartoon and the men who follow it rapturously. Frankly, I'll take a bitcoin over an MLP playset any day, you are free to value that playset over a cryptocurrency that you fail to understand.


I'm not trolling you. Sorry to break that to you. I geninely enjoy you people masturbating over a cryptocurrency that is little more than a ponzi scheamer's wet dream, and then watching you grasp at straws when this is pointed out as to why bitcoin is the NEXT BIG THING that just hasn't been realized yet.

You like cryptocurrency. That's great. You've yet to present a single convincing argument as to why I should trust my livelyhood and hard earned money to a barter currency that is entirely unregulated, unbacked by anyone, and subject to forced scarcity and market dumping among other forms of attack because of this.

It's not that I "fail to understand it". I understand it enough that it scares the shiat out of me that people would delve their life savings into it. That people would sell their houses to buy it. That people would spend tens of thousands of dollars for ASICs to mine the algorhythms for it.

Your hobby is just that. It's just far more expensive than the 3 bucks a month I pay to watch Cartoon Network and The Hub on saturday mornings.

But I digress. If you can present me just ONE convincing argument that a bitcoin should be used over any other currency in the First World, or WHY I should even use a cryptocurrency in the first place, then I'd be happy to listen to you.
 
2014-03-04 08:35:00 PM  

LasersHurt: MelGoesOnTour: LasersHurt: impaler: No. Based on math.

I look forward to your math.

You're either trolling (in which case I award you the Big Fish) or you're just being an asshole right now. Not sure which it is BUT it's fun to see it play out.   :)

Hours later, you decide I'm "trolling or an asshole." Thanks for coming to the thread big guy, you're an asset to the team.


Congrats on trolling me. You've won the crown.
 
2014-03-04 08:47:26 PM  

OptionC: LasersHurt: I explained that there are two different things in play; I don't know why you don't understand this, and I particularly don't understand why you think it's valid to say "the costs would be the same." Bitcoin /= current transaction methods.

The transaction costs for bitcoin are much, much higher as the network has to validate the ever-growing blockchains in the transaction.  The costs are simply distributed across the network at this point, so nobody really feels it, but it is certainly.  There's also an issue that if bitcoin ever were to get as popular as the USD, the blockchains and their validation would get absolutely stupid, making the costs go up further.


This is a common misconception. The costs of blockchain validation do not increase with transaction volume.  Nor does it go up over time automatically.  The difficulty increases only when more/faster Bitcoin hardware comes online. It's self-balancing. If it becomes financially untenable, miners will drop off.

It's absolutely true that the current implementation of the Bitcoin protocol could not hope to handle the complete USD transaction volume. However this is a bit like crying foul when a young couple buys a Prius, and pointing out that it will never be able to handle a family of seven.  The current implementation works well for the current volume, and will for the near future.  Development is underway to extend/expand/enhance in many ways.  That's the beauty of an open source implementation of an open and free protocol. It grows.
 
2014-03-04 08:49:33 PM  
hardinparamedic:
Oh, look at that. One BitCoin "ATM" in Austin, Tx, and one in Vancouver.

Man, that sure makes it more convienent than using my US Dollar.


This is precisely the argument used against email in the early days.
 
2014-03-04 08:54:31 PM  

Belias: This is precisely the argument used against email in the early days.


Unlike Email, Bitcoin doesn't solve any problems.

Again, give me one good reason why I should be using it? I don't care about the novelty of it. The usefullness of it to buy stuff is only unique if I am trying to buy off a darknet market - every business that accepts it also accepts USD for the same item - and I really don't care if my purchases are "trackable" or not.

So again. Why should I use it, or view it as anything more than a barter novelty?

What makes BitCoin more valuable than Dogecoin, or Shiatcoin? (Granted, Dogecoin users are more laid back and less douchy about their crypto of choice.)
 
2014-03-04 09:00:14 PM  

Belias: hardinparamedic:
Oh, look at that. One BitCoin "ATM" in Austin, Tx, and one in Vancouver.

Man, that sure makes it more convienent than using my US Dollar.

This is precisely the argument used against email in the early days.


No it isn't.

Not even close.
 
2014-03-04 09:18:50 PM  

Belias: hardinparamedic:
Oh, look at that. One BitCoin "ATM" in Austin, Tx, and one in Vancouver.

Man, that sure makes it more convienent than using my US Dollar.

This is precisely the argument used against email in the early days.


No it wasn't. There were no arguments against email. For those that could use it, it was great, and provided a VERY CLEAR advantage over regular mail.

This line of thinking seems common in reddit as well. Nothing like hearing 20 somethings talk about how no one thought the Internet would work, or other such drivel. No one ever seriously dismissed the Internet, and the only real serious arguments against it was that it would literally collapse over it overuse.
 
2014-03-04 09:45:57 PM  
ts1.mm.bing.net
umhu yea realy ok
 
2014-03-04 10:15:04 PM  

Smackledorfer: Belias: hardinparamedic:
Oh, look at that. One BitCoin "ATM" in Austin, Tx, and one in Vancouver.

Man, that sure makes it more convienent than using my US Dollar.

This is precisely the argument used against email in the early days.

No it isn't.

Not even close.


Um yes it was. Perhaps you're not thinking early enough?  When "nobody has an email account, why would I use that instead of regular real mail?"
 
2014-03-04 10:16:03 PM  
impaler: Nothing like hearing 20 somethings talk about how no one thought the Internet would work, or other such drivel.

Nice try, but my first computer was a Vic-20.
 
2014-03-04 10:52:28 PM  

Belias: impaler: Nothing like hearing 20 somethings talk about how no one thought the Internet would work, or other such drivel.

Nice try, but my first computer was a Vic-20.


So you lied about it being an argument against email.
 
2014-03-04 10:55:19 PM  

Belias: Um yes it was. Perhaps you're not thinking early enough?  When "nobody has an email account, why would I use that instead of regular real mail?"


No one said that. If they didn't have an email account, they didn't care if you did. If you didn't have anyone to use email with, you didn't have an email account. If you did have email, and had people to use it with, the advantage was obvious.
 
2014-03-04 10:57:38 PM  

impaler: No one said that. If they didn't have an email account, they didn't care if you did.


In fact, they wouldn't even know WTF email was to comment on it.

Stop lying. Jesus. This bitcoiner desire to compare bitcoin adoption to the internet is transparent and ridiculous.
 
2014-03-04 10:57:51 PM  
While I run the risk of becoming the "crying girl leaning on a locker door" in the "welcome to fark" meme, I have to ask...

How can one lose imaginary money?  and if the imaginary money goes missing, why not replace it with more imaginary money???  Hell, if Ben Bernanke taught us anything, printing presses are our economy's best friend....
 
2014-03-04 11:21:45 PM  

impaler: impaler: No one said that. If they didn't have an email account, they didn't care if you did.

In fact, they wouldn't even know WTF email was to comment on it.

Stop lying. Jesus. This bitcoiner desire to compare bitcoin adoption to the internet is transparent and ridiculous.


When in doubt, ad hominem?

The fact is, when offered email, some (SOME) people absolutely questioned it because their friends didn't have it. Source? My personal experience. I'm not comparing Bitcoin to the Internet, I'm noting that the specific complaint of 'my favorite retailers don't accept it, so I don't see the point of it' is absolutely similar to some early questioners of the usefulness of email.

I get it, you hate Bitcoin. You think it's silly, you think it's a ponzi scheme, or you're just pissed off that you didn't 'get in' soon enough to cash in on early rises.  With gleeful malice, you point to each "crash" of the exchange value as proof of your evaluation.  And yet, the exchange rate now stands at $650 to one Bitcoin, despite several "crashes".  This brand of logic parallels climate change deniers who point to short term downward trends in temperature as "proof" that climate change is invalid, ignoring the clear long-term upward trend.

The concept of cryptocurrency isn't going anywhere. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back in. Bitcoin's only real competitor is a child coin, but first mover is a powerful advantage, especially with open source.

I'd love to argue with you more, but I'm off to get the latest humble bundle, with Bitcoin of course.
 
2014-03-04 11:32:30 PM  

Belias: Smackledorfer: Belias: hardinparamedic:
Oh, look at that. One BitCoin "ATM" in Austin, Tx, and one in Vancouver.

Man, that sure makes it more convienent than using my US Dollar.

This is precisely the argument used against email in the early days.

No it isn't.

Not even close.

Um yes it was. Perhaps you're not thinking early enough?  When "nobody has an email account, why would I use that instead of regular real mail?"


No.

This literally never happened.
 
2014-03-05 12:26:48 AM  

Belias: impaler: impaler: No one said that. If they didn't have an email account, they didn't care if you did.

In fact, they wouldn't even know WTF email was to comment on it.

Stop lying. Jesus. This bitcoiner desire to compare bitcoin adoption to the internet is transparent and ridiculous.

When in doubt, ad hominem?

The fact is, when offered email, some (SOME) people absolutely questioned it because their friends didn't have it. Source? My personal experience. I'm not comparing Bitcoin to the Internet, I'm noting that the specific complaint of 'my favorite retailers don't accept it, so I don't see the point of it' is absolutely similar to some early questioners of the usefulness of email.

I get it, you hate Bitcoin. You think it's silly, you think it's a ponzi scheme, or you're just pissed off that you didn't 'get in' soon enough to cash in on early rises.  With gleeful malice, you point to each "crash" of the exchange value as proof of your evaluation.  And yet, the exchange rate now stands at $650 to one Bitcoin, despite several "crashes".  This brand of logic parallels climate change deniers who point to short term downward trends in temperature as "proof" that climate change is invalid, ignoring the clear long-term upward trend.

The concept of cryptocurrency isn't going anywhere. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back in. Bitcoin's only real competitor is a child coin, but first mover is a powerful advantage, especially with open source.

I'd love to argue with you more, but I'm off to get the latest humble bundle, with Bitcoin of course.


I didn't do ad hom. You're lying. That's just honest assessment. No one seriously criticized email. Even in your personal example, where they had no interest, that wasn't criticism. It no way compares to bitcoin. And that's ignoring the fact that if they were wrong on email, they would lose their shirt.

I love your idiot "you're just jealous" bit retard defense. I have long term capital gains in FMCC, which unlike you I have realized profits. So no. I've made more money than you on other investments.

Better yet, I got my money back, where I actually can use it.
And that's a fact you can't even begin to claim I'm jealous about
 
2014-03-05 12:58:00 AM  
Thank you for calling Mt.Gox. We understand you have concerns, but we'd like you to know that any concerns you have are because you trusted millions of dollars with a website named "MAGIC THE GATHERING ONLINE EXCHANGE". Now, please stop being dumb and realize that there's nothing wrong with fiat currency.
 
2014-03-05 12:06:06 PM  
Hahahahahah! they took it and nothing can be one cause NOTHING was stolen!
 
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  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

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