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(RealClear)   Hmmm, we see your country is in trouble, and, well, we'd really like to help but we can't be bothered. So, here's some money   (realclear.com) divider line 82
    More: Followup, United States, Ukraine, Subdivisions of Russia, President Viktor Yanukovych, Sergey Lavrov, bilateral trade, White House announced, House Foreign Affairs Committee  
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4337 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Mar 2014 at 10:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2014-03-04 09:27:39 AM  
Tanks would be so much more macho.
 
2014-03-04 10:08:37 AM  
The Ukraine is not our problem, and their woes are their own to deal with.
 
2014-03-04 10:39:02 AM  

vpb: Tanks would be so much more macho.


And we have plenty, too

/a whole base full of them up in the high desert
//all mothballed
 
2014-03-04 10:42:48 AM  
I wonder who will end up with that money.....
 
2014-03-04 10:42:59 AM  
No.  The US absolutely should not get involved in yet another war.
 
2014-03-04 10:43:21 AM  
Yeah, giving a country where we have no clear indication who the good guys and bad guys are has never turned out badly for us in the past.
 
2014-03-04 10:43:37 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: vpb: Tanks would be so much more macho.

And we have plenty, too

/a whole base full of them up in the high desert
//all mothballed


!st Armored could deliver the money by hand.
 
2014-03-04 10:44:08 AM  

Weatherkiss: Yeah, giving a country money/weapons/aid/whatever where we have no clear indication who the good guys and bad guys are has never turned out badly for us in the past.


Accidently that part.
 
2014-03-04 10:44:24 AM  

Lucky LaRue: The Ukraine is not our problem, and their woes are their own to deal with.


They could easily become our problem.  Lots of oil in the Black Sea.

And since economic problems was one of the root causes of the Euromaidan protests and the subsequent ouster of Yanukovych, money does in fact address the issue.
 
2014-03-04 10:46:13 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: vpb: Tanks would be so much more macho.

And we have plenty, too

/a whole base full of them up in the high desert
//all mothballed


Tanks, but no tanks
 
2014-03-04 10:47:25 AM  
$1 billion. They'll probably deliver it in cash and stacked on pallets ready to disappear on arrival, totally unaccounted for.
 
2014-03-04 10:47:44 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: vpb: Tanks would be so much more macho.

And we have plenty, too

/a whole base full of them up in the high desert
//all mothballed


And those jerks won't even give me one.  ONE!
 
2014-03-04 10:47:59 AM  

Arkanaut: Lucky LaRue: The Ukraine is not our problem, and their woes are their own to deal with.

They could easily become our problem.  Lots of oil in the Black Sea.

And since economic problems was one of the root causes of the Euromaidan protests and the subsequent ouster of Yanukovych, money does in fact address the issue.


Pretty much. This whole situation has been a great excuse to strengthen ties between Western Europe, the US, and Eastern Europe. When will people realize that even if Putin comes out of this with Crimea (which is looking less and less likely) it's still a net loss on their end as far as political calculus goes? Crimea isn't exactly a bread basket.
 
2014-03-04 10:51:00 AM  
img.fark.net
I gotta turn my back now.
 
2014-03-04 10:52:01 AM  
Given that Ukraine is basicly insolvent right now I think it is a large help to guarantee that they will be able to at least meet their military payroll when they have Russia sitting tanks off the boarder.
 
2014-03-04 10:52:14 AM  
Yeah, because what could staving off a collapse of the Ukrainian economy possibly do to help stabilize the situation?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-03-04 10:53:26 AM  
The reality of the situation is that the Crimea is gone.  Nothing short of a war would recover it for Ukraine, there is no way we are going to fight a war over a territory where the majority are pro-Russian and Ukraine couldn't hold onto it if we did recover it for them.
 
2014-03-04 10:53:32 AM  
so call me, maybe.
 
2014-03-04 10:53:51 AM  

generallyso: $1 billion. They'll probably deliver it in cash and stacked on pallets ready to disappear on arrival, totally unaccounted for.


Yeah, just like Obama did the first time!
 
2014-03-04 10:56:32 AM  

DarwiOdrade: Yeah, just like Obama did the first time!



In other words, "Obama's different! He's not like all the other corrupt jerks in DC! Hope and Change!"

Sorry, not buying it.
 
2014-03-04 10:57:05 AM  

The Muthaship: I wonder who will end up with that money.....


The mobsters, duh.
 
2014-03-04 10:57:29 AM  

vpb: The reality of the situation is that the Crimea is gone.  Nothing short of a war would recover it for Ukraine, there is no way we are going to fight a war over a territory where the majority are pro-Russian and Ukraine couldn't hold onto it if we did recover it for them.


Exactly, so why try?

It's nice that the Ukraine wants to hold together, but at best the Crimea will split off, and at worst the country will split in half.  And it'd be totally OK if that happened without a war
 
2014-03-04 10:58:00 AM  

generallyso: In other words, "Obama's different! He's not like all the other corrupt jerks in DC! Hope and Change!"

Sorry, not buying it.



P.S. It's Congress, not Obama. You know, that gaggle of jerks with a 90+% reelection rate.
 
2014-03-04 10:58:25 AM  

vpb: The reality of the situation is that the Crimea is gone.  Nothing short of a war would recover it for Ukraine, there is no way we are going to fight a war over a territory where the majority are pro-Russian and Ukraine couldn't hold onto it if we did recover it for them.


Yeah... I'm not sure the money offer is aid or STFU hush variety

/but this is not worth our going to war with Russia over
//not that I couldn't do with a little nuclear apocalypse
 
2014-03-04 11:00:54 AM  

generallyso: generallyso: In other words, "Obama's different! He's not like all the other corrupt jerks in DC! Hope and Change!"

Sorry, not buying it.


P.S. It's Congress, not Obama. You know, that gaggle of jerks with a 90+% reelection rate.


Also, that first time in Iraq as $12B, not $1B, so you're right, it's totally the same!
 
2014-03-04 11:01:44 AM  
Putin actually has a point here.  The President of Ukraine (who was elected in what was apparently a fair election) was removed via illegal means.  He wasn't impeached (they have a way to do that, in a procedure as complicated as in the United States), he was just forced out.  Now, that certainly doesn't justify his invasion of Crimera, but the current government of the Ukraine is arguably illegitimate due to this.
 
2014-03-04 11:03:40 AM  

DarwiOdrade: generallyso: generallyso: In other words, "Obama's different! He's not like all the other corrupt jerks in DC! Hope and Change!"

Sorry, not buying it.


P.S. It's Congress, not Obama. You know, that gaggle of jerks with a 90+% reelection rate.

Also, that first time in Iraq as $12B, not $1B, so you're right, it's totally the same!


Also, it came from the UN, not the US. THE SAME!!!1!
 
2014-03-04 11:04:26 AM  
It is always a temptation, for an armed and agile nation,
To call upon its neighbor and to say,
"We invaded you last night, we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."

And that is called asking for Dane-Geld,
And the people who ask it explain,
That you've only to pay them the Dane-Geld,
And then you'll be rid of the Dane!

It is always a temptation, for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff up and look important and to say,
"Although we could defeat you, we are not prepared to meet you.
And so we'll pay you cash to go away."

And that is called paying the Dane-Geld,
But it's proven again and again,
That once you have paid him the Dane-Geld,
You will never be rid of the Dane.

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they may succumb and go astray.
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say:

"We will never pay anyone the Dane-Geld,
No matter how trifling the cost.
For the end of that game lies dishonor and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!"

- Rudyard Kipling
 
2014-03-04 11:05:26 AM  

DarwiOdrade: Also, that first time in Iraq as $12B, not $1B, so you're right, it's totally the same!


What difference does the amount make?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-03-04 11:06:18 AM  

Geotpf: Putin actually has a point here.  The President of Ukraine (who was elected in what was apparently a fair election) was removed via illegal means.  He wasn't impeached (they have a way to do that, in a procedure as complicated as in the United States), he was just forced out.  Now, that certainly doesn't justify his invasion of Crimera, but the current government of the Ukraine is arguably illegitimate due to this.


If you ignore the whole "setting himself up as a dictator" bit.
 
2014-03-04 11:06:26 AM  
I hope a lot of that money goes to the Kiev Molotov cocktail lobbing mob. Those guys cpould become pros at it
 
2014-03-04 11:06:43 AM  

generallyso: DarwiOdrade: Also, that first time in Iraq as $12B, not $1B, so you're right, it's totally the same!

What difference does the amount make?


Seems like spending $1 is a lot more "fiscally responsible" than spending $12, no?
 
2014-03-04 11:06:46 AM  
 
2014-03-04 11:07:38 AM  

DarwiOdrade: generallyso: DarwiOdrade: Also, that first time in Iraq as $12B, not $1B, so you're right, it's totally the same!

What difference does the amount make?

Seems like spending $1 is a lot more "fiscally responsible" than spending $12, no?



I have no idea what you're going on about.
 
2014-03-04 11:08:31 AM  

Geotpf: who was elected in what was apparently a fair election


A lot of people would take issue with that - Russian proxies basically unseated Tymoshenko with dirty tricks and then shoved her in prison.
 
2014-03-04 11:08:39 AM  
One billion dollars could do a lot of people over *here* some good...
 
2014-03-04 11:09:05 AM  

vpb: Geotpf: Putin actually has a point here.  The President of Ukraine (who was elected in what was apparently a fair election) was removed via illegal means.  He wasn't impeached (they have a way to do that, in a procedure as complicated as in the United States), he was just forced out.  Now, that certainly doesn't justify his invasion of Crimera, but the current government of the Ukraine is arguably illegitimate due to this.

If you ignore the whole "setting himself up as a dictator" bit.


What does Obama have to do with this?
 
2014-03-04 11:10:04 AM  

generallyso: DarwiOdrade: generallyso: DarwiOdrade: Also, that first time in Iraq as $12B, not $1B, so you're right, it's totally the same!

What difference does the amount make?

Seems like spending $1 is a lot more "fiscally responsible" than spending $12, no?


I have no idea what you're going on about.


You made the case that this was the same as losing $12B in Iraq, and it's not - not even close. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous the comparison is.
 
2014-03-04 11:10:32 AM  

Mentat: Yeah, because what could staving off a collapse of the Ukrainian economy possibly do to help stabilize the situation?


Well, how do we know they won't just take the money and waste it on vodak or welfare, instead of buying shiny stuff from American arms manufacturers that requires them to purchase boatloads of ammunition/consumables and parts for ongoing maintenance and repair?

It's much better to give the money to our own job creators to make weapons to send them.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-03-04 11:10:34 AM  
Tatterdemalian:

Take up the White Man's burden, Send forth the best ye breed
  Go bind your sons to exile, to serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness, On fluttered folk and wild--
  Your new-caught, sullen peoples, Half-devil and half-child.

- Rudyard Kipling

We've taken up the white man's burden
Of ebony and brown;
Now will you tell us, Rudyard
How we may put it down?

- New York World
 
2014-03-04 11:16:24 AM  

DarwiOdrade: generallyso: DarwiOdrade: Also, that first time in Iraq as $12B, not $1B, so you're right, it's totally the same!

What difference does the amount make?

Seems like spending $1 is a lot more "fiscally responsible" than spending $12, no?


That depends entirely on how the money is being spent.  I could spend $12 on new socks and $1 on bagged pickle at the gas station...which one would be more "fiscally responsible"?

/I don't know why we're using quotation marks either.
 
2014-03-04 11:16:58 AM  

DarwiOdrade: You made the case that this was the same as losing $12B in Iraq, and it's not - not even close. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous the comparison is.


I did no such thing. I said the money was likely to disappear, you went off about Obama and "fiscally responsible" because it's $1 billion instead of $12 billion.
 
2014-03-04 11:18:11 AM  
static.cdn.ea.com
 
2014-03-04 11:21:43 AM  

TerminalEchoes: One billion dollars could do a lot of people over *here* some good...


^ this^

wasn't that long ago there was a crisis about debt in the u.s  - if you have a billion dollars you are able to get your hands on couldn't ya slap that on the debt?


/i know iknow. it doesn't work that way but it should
 
2014-03-04 11:22:27 AM  

vpb: Geotpf: Putin actually has a point here.  The President of Ukraine (who was elected in what was apparently a fair election) was removed via illegal means.  He wasn't impeached (they have a way to do that, in a procedure as complicated as in the United States), he was just forced out.  Now, that certainly doesn't justify his invasion of Crimera, but the current government of the Ukraine is arguably illegitimate due to this.

If you ignore the whole "setting himself up as a dictator" bit.


I'm not saying there weren't grounds for impeachment.  But I don't think he did anything technically illegal (unless he directly ordered "shoot the protesters", which I don't think has been proven).  Unpopular with the Western leaning half of the country, sure-but those same policies were popular with the Russian leaning half of the country.

The country is a very unstable 50/50 split between the eastern and western halves.  Ironically, if Crimera really does come under permanent Russian control, that might tip the balance in favor of the west in the rest of the country.

All this seems to emphasize the strength of the United States' style of government, with multiple checks and balances that serve to protect minority opinions and prevent one side from dominating the other just because they win an election.
 
2014-03-04 11:22:41 AM  
Are we really flying over a pallet with 1b USD on it just to be used for collateral on these loan guarnatees?  Wow the US has slipped where our word is not good enough for most lenders.
 
2014-03-04 11:24:32 AM  

Wooly Bully: Geotpf: who was elected in what was apparently a fair election

A lot of people would take issue with that - Russian proxies basically unseated Tymoshenko with dirty tricks and then shoved her in prison.


Well, to be completely fair, she wasn't exactly angelically innocent herself.  That doesn't make anything done previously justified, the elections totally legitimate, or Russia's actions correct, but one must be honest.
 
2014-03-04 11:24:53 AM  

generallyso: DarwiOdrade: You made the case that this was the same as losing $12B in Iraq, and it's not - not even close. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous the comparison is.

I did no such thing. I said the money was likely to disappear, you went off about Obama and "fiscally responsible" because it's $1 billion instead of $12 billion.


OK - why do you think it's likely to disappear? Given that the article clearly states "$1 billion in loan guarantees" which is nothing like palettes of cash you said it would "probably" be, what possible explanation could there be for it disappearing?
 
2014-03-04 11:28:24 AM  

DarwiOdrade: OK - why do you think it's likely to disappear?


It was a cynical statement on the US government handing out vast sums of money.
 
2014-03-04 11:33:24 AM  

generallyso: DarwiOdrade: OK - why do you think it's likely to disappear?

It was a cynical statement on the US government handing out vast sums of money.


Ah - so you got nothing - well, ok then.
 
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