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(Washington Post)   Republicans, one week ago: Obama's sweeping use of imperial power makes him a king, a God-king, a dictator ruling every facet of our lives. This week: OMG, why is Obama so feeble and weak?   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 163
    More: Stupid, Obama, imperialisms, Republicans, dictators, AIPAC  
•       •       •

549 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Mar 2014 at 10:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



163 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-04 11:01:30 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Lionel Mandrake: Obama could look real tough and decisive, and be nobody's biatch by saying "Get out of Ukraine within the week or we respond with force."

That would be tough as shiat.  And dumb as shiat.  The two often go together.

So I ask the "Obama is weak" crowd:  WHAT SHOULD HE SAY OR DO??

GOP: all talk, no actual useful suggestions

It isn't necessary to have a solution to recognize the problem.


Yes, it's called "whining."
 
2014-03-04 11:01:55 AM  

RexTalionis: What's also funny is that I'm starting to hear people praising Putin because they think Putin is making Obama look bad.

For instance:

https://www.teaparty.org/giuliani-putin-leader-obama-read-latest-bre ak ing-news-newsmax-com-httpwww-newsmax-comnewsfrontrudolph-giuliani-vlad imir-putin-leader-ukraine20140303id555803ixzz2uwj1p3-36100/

http://www.teaparty.org/romney-putin-better-president-obama-33576/

https://www.teaparty.org/putin-humiliates-obama-u-s-media-ukraine-35 95 9/

http://www.teaparty.org/kristol-putin-acts-obama-affirms-35902/


The thing is, it's not Obama that's weak. It's the European leaders, who are frankly pathetic. Cameron, Merkel, Hollande, all have no spine at all. Merkel basically sounds like she has her head stuck in the sand and is pretending nothing is happening in Ukraine, Cameron clearly wants Russian capital to keep flowing into the City and would practically allow Russian annexation of the entirety of Ukraine to permit it, and Hollande... Well, he's still Flanby.
 
2014-03-04 11:03:12 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Don't feel bad if you don't. Not a single critic does.


I do.

And the President is basically doing what I would have done, just out of order. First and foremost you get the emergency meeting of NATO together. Confab and get a feel for what your partners are and are not willing to do. Then give a speech outlining what you you think is wrong and what you expect to have happen. Ideally you give it with them in the background nodding. That makes you look strong. Getting the people who can help in line to help. You don't look like you're isolated and you look like you have a little state craft working. If this was done early we may have been able to keep China out of it. I have a feeling Putin already had China shored up before the Olympics but maybe they would have gotten cold feet.

One move I would have done immediately would have been to take the "I have to protect my citizens" piece off the board. This could have been done by getting the UN to ship over Peace Keepers to monitor the situation. As I said before I don't think the UN can solve anything, but they can really gum up the works! Putin would be less like to start firing off rounds if blue helmets are in the way.
 
2014-03-04 11:05:56 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Obama could look real tough and decisive, and be nobody's biatch by saying "Get out of Ukraine within the week or we respond with force."

That would be tough as shiat.  And dumb as shiat.  The two often go together.

So I ask the "Obama is weak" crowd:  WHAT SHOULD HE SAY OR DO??

GOP: all talk, no actual useful suggestions


John McCain is on BBC right now saying that there are no options, and it's all Obama's fault. "This has been five years in the making."
 
2014-03-04 11:06:12 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Lionel Mandrake: Don't feel bad if you don't. Not a single critic does.

I do.

And the President is basically doing what I would have done, just out of order. First and foremost you get the emergency meeting of NATO together. Confab and get a feel for what your partners are and are not willing to do. Then give a speech outlining what you you think is wrong and what you expect to have happen. Ideally you give it with them in the background nodding. That makes you look strong. Getting the people who can help in line to help. You don't look like you're isolated and you look like you have a little state craft working. If this was done early we may have been able to keep China out of it. I have a feeling Putin already had China shored up before the Olympics but maybe they would have gotten cold feet.

One move I would have done immediately would have been to take the "I have to protect my citizens" piece off the board. This could have been done by getting the UN to ship over Peace Keepers to monitor the situation. As I said before I don't think the UN can solve anything, but they can really gum up the works! Putin would be less like to start firing off rounds if blue helmets are in the way.


Russia would have just immediately vetoed Peace Keeping UN forces from it's spot on the Security Council. Wasn't ever an option.
 
2014-03-04 11:06:18 AM  

Wooly Bully: "Just DO something, you empty suit weakling!" We'll keep hearing this over and over.

Right now the president's having a hard enough time getting the Europeans on board with just sanctions, for God's sake. So do try to think a bit before shooting your mouths off, right-wingers.


In fairness, a weakened Ukraine, even a Ukraine minus Crimea if they break off isn't exactly a bad outcome for the Europeans. They get theirs on the back end with deals with Russia, and they get to renegotiate a lot with the new government--and at terms that they'll not be able to fend off as easily.

Europeans politics goes back a while, and governments rising and falling? That's just how it goes. The US has had a single form of government far longer than anything in Europe. They have the history, but it's been punctuated by governments rising and falling. Ukraine taking a reshuffling? That's just business as usual. They aren't exactly happy with Russia being blatant about moving troops in to secure their ports and keep unrest the heck away from their property, and they'll do their damnedest to keep civil war far and away, but if Ukraine starts shooting, that's on their heads as far as the rest of Europe is concerned, and if Russia can put that to an end, more power to them, as far as the rest of Europe is concerned. It could potentially disrupt business, and fuel, so the quicker this comes to a finish, the better. Better have Ukraine sulk as folks decide to split, than having them shooting up the joint. In the end, it's not about "freedom" or "sovereignty" in their minds, but "stability." Ukraine with a split Crimea will be more concerned about pulling together in the face of their new neighbors, and that will mean an end to the potential strife. Rude wake up call? For damn sure, but the UN wasn't about to pull that off. The US? Not our bailiwick.
 
2014-03-04 11:06:34 AM  
Ooooh, McCain just used the word "feckless"!

DRINK
 
2014-03-04 11:07:29 AM  
The Stealth Hippopotamus:

One move I would have done immediately would have been to take the "I have to protect my citizens" piece off the board. This could have been done by getting the UN to ship over Peace Keepers to monitor the situation. As I said before I don't think the UN can solve anything, but they can really gum up the works! Putin would be less like to start firing off rounds if blue helmets are in the way.

Someone doesn't understand how the UN works, lol.  For the UN to ship over peacekeepers you would need approval by the UN security council.  Guess who is a permanent member of the council with veto power?  Go on, guess.
 
2014-03-04 11:07:30 AM  
WHY DOESN'T HE JUST SHOW SOME LEADERSHIP
 
2014-03-04 11:08:00 AM  
Crap, now McCain just used a Chamberlain and Sudentenland reference.

DRINK AGAIN

/McCain now making excuses for Germany not pushing sanctions
 
2014-03-04 11:08:40 AM  

T-Servo: John McCain is on BBC right now saying that there are no options, and it's all Obama's fault. "This has been five years in the making."


he's right

most russians have never even seen a black person
 
2014-03-04 11:10:19 AM  
And now McCain is blaming Sec Hagel for the defense cuts at the Pentagon.

DAMMIT, now a Reagan reference. Is that another shot? This is too early in the day.
 
2014-03-04 11:11:52 AM  
Neo Cons are just proving the theory that their only play was the Cold War, specifically wars of attrition that depend upon a Cold War.  Now they have nothing left to think about or say, and that scares the hell out of them.

When your dogma cannot adapt, neither can you, and adaptability is what keeps us alive.
 
2014-03-04 11:12:14 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Lionel Mandrake: Don't feel bad if you don't. Not a single critic does.

I do.

And the President is basically doing what I would have done, just out of order. First and foremost you get the emergency meeting of NATO together. Confab and get a feel for what your partners are and are not willing to do. Then give a speech outlining what you you think is wrong and what you expect to have happen. Ideally you give it with them in the background nodding. That makes you look strong. Getting the people who can help in line to help. You don't look like you're isolated and you look like you have a little state craft working. If this was done early we may have been able to keep China out of it. I have a feeling Putin already had China shored up before the Olympics but maybe they would have gotten cold feet.

One move I would have done immediately would have been to take the "I have to protect my citizens" piece off the board. This could have been done by getting the UN to ship over Peace Keepers to monitor the situation. As I said before I don't think the UN can solve anything, but they can really gum up the works! Putin would be less like to start firing off rounds if blue helmets are in the way.


We assume, of course, this was attempted -- given how Americans have run foreign policy under Bush/Obama, I wonder if this was even considered.

A statement that "We're meeting with NATO to discuss the status of events in a country that's part of our Partnership for Peace program" would've bought 48 hours from most legitimate observers (I'm going to discount the Rondroids and the Democracy Now types.) If that meeting ended in acrimony, then you have to go it alone or with a coalition of the willing.

UN peacekeepers were off the board due to Putin's position on UNSC. But the EU could have offered to send peacekeepers, or say pay for India providing peacekeepers.

New Ukraine government will do what it takes to keep the country stable + together.
 
2014-03-04 11:14:09 AM  

duffblue: Why did he feel the need to get involved in the first place?


We are viewed as the world police by much of the world.
 
2014-03-04 11:14:14 AM  

hubiestubert: Considering that Syria is essentially a Russian client and in their sphere of influence, that was sort of HIS mess to clean up in the first place. Ukraine, is pretty much on the Russian side of things as well. Same as Georgians rolling tanks out against civilians in Ossetia. The entire world isn't the US backyard. There are places we have no real influence over. Likewise, coalitions are sort of important in international action.


I understand that. And you understand that. The Administration should have understood that. The President delivered a written speech bluffing military action when he knew we didn't have any backing and he could get Congress on board. And the sad part is the world knew it and we needed the life line Putin provided.

hubiestubert: I know that it's hard to believe, when you have a rage boner to do SOMETHING, but occasionally, it helps to think about things in more than just terms of the US. The sad thing? The US has been so active in meddling, and kicking over anthills, that the UN has sort of been lax about things, because the perception is, "If we just wait long enough, the US will take care of that, and then we can get about to making a profit on it."


Ok, lets be perfectly clear. I do not want to "do something" if that includes gun powder or jet fuel.

I agree with everything after the "The sad thing?"
 
2014-03-04 11:14:35 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Lionel Mandrake: Don't feel bad if you don't. Not a single critic does.

I do.

And the President is basically doing what I would have done, just out of order. First and foremost you get the emergency meeting of NATO together. Confab and get a feel for what your partners are and are not willing to do. Then give a speech outlining what you you think is wrong and what you expect to have happen. Ideally you give it with them in the background nodding. That makes you look strong. Getting the people who can help in line to help. You don't look like you're isolated and you look like you have a little state craft working. If this was done early we may have been able to keep China out of it. I have a feeling Putin already had China shored up before the Olympics but maybe they would have gotten cold feet.

One move I would have done immediately would have been to take the "I have to protect my citizens" piece off the board. This could have been done by getting the UN to ship over Peace Keepers to monitor the situation. As I said before I don't think the UN can solve anything, but they can really gum up the works! Putin would be less like to start firing off rounds if blue helmets are in the way.


Except you're NOT going to get UN peacekeepers anywhere near fast enough, nor do any of the nations closest want to do much of anything, but wait and see. The UN won't do a damn thing, until there is a LOT of shooting, and it becomes untenable to business to continue. No one in Europe really cares. Not really. They'll make polite noises, but a weakened Ukraine is a much more malleable trading partner--even a potential market for all sorts of crap that they might feel they need to defend themselves--and certainly MORE in their sphere of influence down the line.

As for "looking strong"...it's not OUR bailiwick. And no one is really going to do much of anything until there is shooting. Right now, it's a stand off and tensions are running high, and there are calls going fast and furious, but that's all we really can do. All anyone can really do. And NOT showing off is sort of important right now, much more than puffing out chests at this point in public. If anything, right now, overplaying one's hand is exactly the wrong thing.
 
2014-03-04 11:15:13 AM  

duffblue: Why did he feel the need to get involved in the first place?


Same reason he would have if this had happened in Germany or Poland.  What a stupid question.
 
2014-03-04 11:16:50 AM  
i151.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-04 11:17:27 AM  
It's simple. When Obama decides to take unilateral action that the GOP doesn't like he's a tyrant. When he doesn't take unilateral action that the GOP wants, he's spineless.

Clearly Obama needs to anticipate exactly what the GOP wants him to do, when they want him to do it and just get on with it. It's what a true leader would do.
 
2014-03-04 11:17:37 AM  
The Stealth Hippopotamus:  Ok, lets be perfectly clear. I do not want to "do something" if that includes gun powder or jet fuel.

In that case, I apologize. These threads it's sometimes hard to keep track, but it IS on me to do so. Mea culpa.
 
2014-03-04 11:18:00 AM  

amiable: The Stealth Hippopotamus:

One move I would have done immediately would have been to take the "I have to protect my citizens" piece off the board. This could have been done by getting the UN to ship over Peace Keepers to monitor the situation. As I said before I don't think the UN can solve anything, but they can really gum up the works! Putin would be less like to start firing off rounds if blue helmets are in the way.

Someone doesn't understand how the UN works, lol.  For the UN to ship over peacekeepers you would need approval by the UN security council.  Guess who is a permanent member of the council with veto power?  Go on, guess.


Madagascar?

I hear they shut down everything.
 
2014-03-04 11:18:15 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: duffblue: Why did he feel the need to get involved in the first place?

We are viewed as the world police by much of the world.


Completely obliterating the Nazis and the Empire of Japan simultaneously,  in under five yearswhile still keeping the USSR from overtaking all of Europe may have had something to do with it.  That tends to leave a long lasting global footprint.
 
2014-03-04 11:18:49 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Ok, lets be perfectly clear. I do not want to "do something" if that includes gun powder or jet fuel.


So drones are ok then?
 
2014-03-04 11:22:33 AM  

T-Servo: [i151.photobucket.com image 750x500]


they've be shaking because they'd be laughing really really hard.
 
2014-03-04 11:23:00 AM  

threedingers: It's simple. When Obama decides to take unilateral action that the GOP doesn't like he's a tyrant. When he doesn't take unilateral action that the GOP wants, he's spineless.

Clearly Obama needs to anticipate exactly what the GOP wants him to do, when they want him to do it and just get on with it. It's what a true leader would do.


The fact that the GOPs talking points send you guys into such a tizzy every freaking time is evidence enough of his lack of leadership on foreign policy issues. If he was a "true leader" his followers wouldn't have to scramble to do damage control every time he speaks on international issues.
 
2014-03-04 11:25:11 AM  

T-Servo: [i151.photobucket.com image 750x500]


i915.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-04 11:25:49 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Ok, lets be perfectly clear. I do not want to "do something" if that includes gun powder or jet fuel.

So drones are ok then?


What do drones run on, prayer?
 
2014-03-04 11:26:32 AM  

threedingers: It's simple. When Obama decides to take unilateral action that the GOP doesn't like he's a tyrant. When he doesn't take unilateral action that the GOP wants, he's spineless.

Clearly Obama needs to anticipate exactly what the GOP wants him to do, when they want him to do it and just get on with it. It's what a true leader would do.


Well said.

but if he did what they wanted him to do, they would change what it is and then he would be wrong again. He will never be able to do anything right in the eyes of the Republicans.
 
2014-03-04 11:27:12 AM  
He has a phone and a pen.
all is good.
 
2014-03-04 11:27:25 AM  

threedingers: It's simple. When Obama decides to take unilateral action that the GOP doesn't like he's a tyrant. When he doesn't take unilateral action that the GOP wants, he's spineless.

Clearly Obama needs to anticipate exactly what the GOP wants him to do, when they want him to do it and just get on with it. It's what a true leader would do.


Like ObamaCare!
 
2014-03-04 11:27:43 AM  

hubiestubert: [lh4.googleusercontent.com image 298x500]


You forgot papist. He is also a secret Catholic.
 
2014-03-04 11:27:45 AM  
Lucky LaRue:
The fact that the GOPs talking points send you guys into such a tizzy every freaking time is evidence enough of his lack of leadership on foreign policy issues. If he was a "true leader" his followers wouldn't have to scramble to do damage control every time he speaks on international issues.

Damage control for what?  Specifically what should he be doing that he is not already doing.    Vague "true leadership" BS is useless.
 
2014-03-04 11:28:41 AM  
Why do I have the feeling that as soon as Obama sends one troop into the Ukraine the Republicans will become the biggest pacifists on the face of the earth?
 
2014-03-04 11:29:39 AM  

thamike: JusticeandIndependence: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Ok, lets be perfectly clear. I do not want to "do something" if that includes gun powder or jet fuel.

So drones are ok then?

What do drones run on, prayer?


img.defencetalk.com
 
2014-03-04 11:29:52 AM  

hubiestubert: In fairness, a weakened Ukraine, even a Ukraine minus Crimea if they break off isn't exactly a bad outcome for the Europeans


True, the Europeans have their reasons for being reluctant to go along with sanctions, although they've, uh, made mistakes before.

But I was just saying the idea that Obama's weak for not taking unilateral action is ludicrous (as I'm sure you'd agree).
 
2014-03-04 11:30:31 AM  

Lucky LaRue: Lionel Mandrake: Lucky LaRue: Lionel Mandrake: Lucky LaRue: I wouldn't call Obama weak, but he is making himself look like Putin's biatch every time he opens his mouth on the Ukraine topic.

What should he say or do?

Don't ask me; I'm no leader.  He might do well to take his cues from people who actually have a political presence that foreign leaders respect, though.

Of course...you know what he's doing is wrong, but don't know what's right.  As expected.

So, cues from what people specifically?  Or is that more ass-talk?

It's obvious he is showing weakness in this particular political situation, just like he showed weakness on the Syria question.  You would do better to face that problem rather than demand someone set up a strawman for you to knock over so that you feel better about your leader's questionable ability to command respect on the international stage.



He showed weakness on Syria but you're mistaken if you think he's showing it in this situation. I am no Obama fan, but I have to say, I think so far, he's been doing the best he can with the cards he's been dealt.
 
2014-03-04 11:32:00 AM  

Lucky LaRue: threedingers: It's simple. When Obama decides to take unilateral action that the GOP doesn't like he's a tyrant. When he doesn't take unilateral action that the GOP wants, he's spineless.

Clearly Obama needs to anticipate exactly what the GOP wants him to do, when they want him to do it and just get on with it. It's what a true leader would do.

The fact that the GOPs talking points send you guys into such a tizzy every freaking time is evidence enough of his lack of leadership on foreign policy issues. If he was a "true leader" his followers wouldn't have to scramble to do damage control every time he speaks on international issues.


There is nothing that happens on Fark that is evidence of anything regarding any country's leadership.  Just because the wishy-washy nothingness that is the GOP stays in the social conscious because of the YouTube comment-level mentality of their inexplicably loyal followers doesn't mean everybody else does.
 
2014-03-04 11:33:26 AM  

Pincy: Why do I have the feeling that as soon as Obama sends one troop into the Ukraine the Republicans will become the biggest pacifists on the face of the earth?


i151.photobucket.com
Obama needs to do something, like send a senior official to Ukraine. Especially if he were a combat vet. But we know that won't happen.
 
2014-03-04 11:33:27 AM  

thamike: JusticeandIndependence: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Ok, lets be perfectly clear. I do not want to "do something" if that includes gun powder or jet fuel.

So drones are ok then?

What do drones run on, prayer?


Not Jet Fuel...


The Predator's two fuel tanks combined carry up to 600 pounds of 95-octane to 100-octane reciprocating aircraft engine fuel.

Avgas (aviation gasoline) is used in spark-ignited internal-combustion engines in aircraft. Its formulation is distinct from mogas (motor gasoline) used in cars. Avgas is formulated for stability, safety, and predictable performance under a wide range of environments, and is typically used in aircraft that use reciprocating or Wankel engines.

Jet fuel is a clear to straw-colored fuel, based on either an unleaded kerosene (Jet A-1), or a naphtha-kerosene blend (Jet B). It is similar to diesel fuel, and can be used in either compression ignition engines or turbine engines.
 
2014-03-04 11:33:34 AM  

RexTalionis: thamike: JusticeandIndependence: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Ok, lets be perfectly clear. I do not want to "do something" if that includes gun powder or jet fuel.

So drones are ok then?

What do drones run on, prayer?

[img.defencetalk.com image 800x474]


DEATH FROM ABOVE!
 
2014-03-04 11:35:49 AM  

thamike: Lucky LaRue: threedingers: It's simple. When Obama decides to take unilateral action that the GOP doesn't like he's a tyrant. When he doesn't take unilateral action that the GOP wants, he's spineless.

Clearly Obama needs to anticipate exactly what the GOP wants him to do, when they want him to do it and just get on with it. It's what a true leader would do.

The fact that the GOPs talking points send you guys into such a tizzy every freaking time is evidence enough of his lack of leadership on foreign policy issues. If he was a "true leader" his followers wouldn't have to scramble to do damage control every time he speaks on international issues.

There is nothing that happens on Fark that is evidence of anything regarding any country's leadership.  Just because the wishy-washy nothingness that is the GOP stays in the social conscious because of the YouTube comment-level mentality of their inexplicably loyal followers doesn't mean everybody else does.


In politics, if you aren't staying in the public conscious (whether its with GOP wishy-washy nothingness or Democrats promise of rainbows and unicorns), then you aren't even playing the game.
 
2014-03-04 11:36:04 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: thamike: JusticeandIndependence: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Ok, lets be perfectly clear. I do not want to "do something" if that includes gun powder or jet fuel.

So drones are ok then?

What do drones run on, prayer?

Not Jet Fuel...


The Predator's two fuel tanks combined carry up to 600 pounds of 95-octane to 100-octane reciprocating aircraft engine fuel.

Avgas (aviation gasoline) is used in spark-ignited internal-combustion engines in aircraft. Its formulation is distinct from mogas (motor gasoline) used in cars. Avgas is formulated for stability, safety, and predictable performance under a wide range of environments, and is typically used in aircraft that use reciprocating or Wankel engines.

Jet fuel is a clear to straw-colored fuel, based on either an unleaded kerosene (Jet A-1), or a naphtha-kerosene blend (Jet B). It is similar to diesel fuel, and can be used in either compression ignition engines or turbine engines.


replygif.net
 
2014-03-04 11:37:45 AM  

Lucky LaRue: In politics, if you aren't staying in the public conscious (whether its with GOP wishy-washy nothingness or Democrats promise of rainbows and unicorns), then you aren't even playing the game.


You were talking about people's reactions on Fark, which has f*ck-all to do with anything important.
 
2014-03-04 11:39:04 AM  

UrukHaiGuyz: Russia would have just immediately vetoed Peace Keeping UN forces from it's spot on the Security Council. Wasn't ever an option.


Perfect. Then Russia admits that the UN is useless waste of the world's time or they have to admit that the people's well being isn't a concern.
 
2014-03-04 11:39:17 AM  
[READS FARK HEADLINE]


i78.photobucket.com


"Cool Hand Luke and Boss Keen's ditch."

 
2014-03-04 11:39:19 AM  
I don't like Dana Milbank all that much, but award that man one internet for this "A better explanation is Obama's critics are so convinced that he is wrong about everything that they haven't paused to consider the consistency of their accusations. "
 
2014-03-04 11:41:59 AM  

King Something: Republicans would side with Hitler before they would side with Obama.


"At least Hitler was decisive and patriotic!"
 
2014-03-04 11:42:09 AM  

hubiestubert: In that case, I apologize. These threads it's sometimes hard to keep track, but it IS on me to do so. Mea culpa.


It's the internet, where is the fun if you don't come in guns blazing sometimes.

And in your defense most people confuse "do something" with "start bombing".
 
2014-03-04 11:42:19 AM  

thamike: Lucky LaRue: In politics, if you aren't staying in the public conscious (whether its with GOP wishy-washy nothingness or Democrats promise of rainbows and unicorns), then you aren't even playing the game.

You were talking about people's reactions on Fark, which has f*ck-all to do with anything important.


Every time the GOP puts out a talking point critical of Obama and his foreign policy debacles (whether real or construed), the liberal machine leaps into action with a vociferous defense of their party's leader.  My observation that this wouldn't be necessary if he was possessed of true leadership ability isn't just confined to how Farkers react, but to how the entire liberal machine reacts.
 
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