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(Washington Post)   The US has a "moral authority" problem when it comes to Crimea: "Before Iraq there was Afghanistan, the Persian Gulf War...Panama...Grenada...we reserve the right to fire deadly missiles into Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and who knows where else"   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 166
    More: Fail, Gulf War, Crimean, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Government of Ukraine, territorial integrity  
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3497 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Mar 2014 at 10:16 AM (25 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



166 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-04 09:11:11 AM
Yes. We are an empire. Yes, we really don't give 2 sh*ts about democracy in other nations. Yes, we barely care about equal rights at home. Yes, this is the world we live in. Yes, Russia makes us all mad because they refuse to be 2nd to us in their backyard. Yes, we hated France in 2003 for not kissing our asses.
 
2014-03-04 09:14:09 AM
"Moral authority"?  America?

When was this?
 
2014-03-04 10:02:14 AM
While true, the United States doesn't need moral authority. It has actual power.
 
2014-03-04 10:09:24 AM
Thanks Obama.
 
2014-03-04 10:18:26 AM
Which one of those was a sovereign nation that we annexed?
 
2014-03-04 10:19:37 AM
Yes, and who has been a vocal opponent of those actions?  Russia, and Vladimir Putin in particular.
 
2014-03-04 10:20:21 AM

MagicianNamedGob: Which one of those was a sovereign nation that we annexed?


I think "Mexico" is what you're looking for.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-03-04 10:20:26 AM
Someone has a false equivalence problem.

And I guess Putin has a great respect for moral authority.
 
2014-03-04 10:20:26 AM

MagicianNamedGob: Which one of those was a sovereign nation that we annexed?


Hawaii... It nice when you make up a vote and don't let anyone but your own troops vote.
 
2014-03-04 10:22:43 AM

impaler: Thanks Obama.


**shakes tiny fist**
 
2014-03-04 10:23:13 AM
Somebody bump the FARK machine,  it's stuck on Ukraine
 
2014-03-04 10:23:49 AM
Whoever has the biggest authority makes the morals.
 
2014-03-04 10:23:49 AM
I'm not sure there is any real problem with that statement.  And furthermore, has Europe so much as  yawned about this crisis in their backyard?
 
2014-03-04 10:24:43 AM
America.. Moral superiority. That's a huge joke, right?
 
2014-03-04 10:26:41 AM
America's mistakes make Putin's egregious acts a-ok.

Because Bush. Or Obama.
 
2014-03-04 10:26:42 AM
The world is a better place after the US takes selfless action where other cowardly nations fear to tread. Can the same be said about Putin's annexation of territory in Georgia and the Ukraine? I think not.
 
2014-03-04 10:26:44 AM
demotivationalposter.despair.com
 
2014-03-04 10:26:47 AM

DamnYankees: While true, the United States doesn't need moral authority. It has actual power.


Not as much as you might think, nor is that power unassailable.
 
2014-03-04 10:28:44 AM
You could have ended that headline 7 words into it, subby.
 
2014-03-04 10:30:18 AM

Magorn: [demotivationalposter.despair.com image 634x423]


say what you will about the tenets of democratic republics, dude, at least it's an ethos.
 
2014-03-04 10:30:31 AM

diaphoresis: America.. Moral superiority. That's a huge joke, right?


Yes America is often a corrupt grasping arrogant nation in the the thrall of Oligarchs and moneyed interests, that honors its ideals far more often in the breach than the observance.  and for all that I'll still lay down a marker that it is the best of a bad lot and remarkable not for its failings but for the fact that it has ideals in the first place.  As world-spanning superpowers go, America has acted with a FAR greater morality than any of its predecessors, like Rome, the Mongols, the Turks, the British Empire etc
 
2014-03-04 10:31:07 AM
See, the problem for a lot of these leftists and "libertarians" (I don't know what else to call the Lew Rockwell/Ron Paul crowd) is that the sins of the US are so great that any action from would-be regional powers like Russia/China/etc. are forgiven or ignored. Or, they sit there with a straight face and declare that it's somehow a war of liberation because the people of the Caucasus/eastern Ukraine WANT Putin in charge, damnit.
 
2014-03-04 10:31:17 AM
Because Republican Jesus!

You know who used religion as an excuse to invade the Crimean Peninsula?
 
2014-03-04 10:31:18 AM
franciscogonzalez.us
 
2014-03-04 10:31:21 AM

limeyfellow: MagicianNamedGob: Which one of those was a sovereign nation that we annexed?

Hawaii... It nice when you make up a vote and don't let anyone but your own troops vote.


We helped Texas secede and then annexed them. We annexed California, which was also attempting to secede from Mexico. Both of those states came voluntarily, unlike Hawaii. Let us not forget driving off or murdering Native Americans from one end of the continent to the other and annexing their territory.

We tend to romanticize "Manifest Destiny", but it was really just empire-building in the new world.
 
2014-03-04 10:31:21 AM

Nadie_AZ: Yes. We are an empire. Yes, we really don't give 2 sh*ts about democracy in other nations. Yes, we barely care about equal rights at home. Yes, this is the world we live in. Yes, Russia makes us all mad because they refuse to be 2nd to us in their backyard. Yes, we hated France in 2003 for not kissing our asses.


Yes, but in this case we have a 1996 agreement signed by Bill Clinton, Boris Yeltsin and Ukraine reaffirming Ukraine's territorial boundaries and pledging to come to their assistance if it was challenged.

Seems like a lot of people have short term memories.
 
2014-03-04 10:31:52 AM
Subby forgot Viet-farking-nam!
 
2014-03-04 10:32:02 AM
Anyway, is this a repeat of 1851?
 
2014-03-04 10:32:20 AM

Plant Rights Activist: Magorn: [demotivationalposter.despair.com image 634x423]

say what you will about the tenets of democratic republics, dude, at least it's an ethos.


The text that went with that got swallowed, It was pointing out that no only is Putin basically re-enacting the Sudentland Crisis act for act, but her rides with a biker gang named for an elite Nazi SS unit, and yet calls his opponents fascists and Neo-nazis
 
2014-03-04 10:32:25 AM
No. Eat it chickenhawks. The Obama doctrine will work just fine in this situation, let Europe take the lead and back them up.

If you assholes want to invade Crimea, by all means, let Mitt Romney finance your arms and equipment and you can go over. Have fun.

BTW, Mercs don't get benefits, nor do many vets anymore thanks to people like Romney.
 
2014-03-04 10:33:53 AM
"In the Ukraine crisis, the U.S. has a credibility problem"

Damn, the stupid started early.  It is NATO's credibility problem.  The treaty was that NATO would defend Ukraine if they gave up their nukes, not just the U.S.

Regarding "moral authority":
img.fark.net
 
2014-03-04 10:36:56 AM
Soooooo....
what other sorts of missiles, other than "deadly", would one fire into a country, anyway?
 
2014-03-04 10:38:40 AM

farknozzle: Soooooo....
what other sorts of missiles, other than "deadly", would one fire into a country, anyway?


Kitten drones.
 
2014-03-04 10:39:32 AM

farknozzle: Soooooo....
what other sorts of missiles, other than "deadly", would one fire into a country, anyway?


i.imgur.com
 
2014-03-04 10:39:46 AM

stpickrell: See, the problem for a lot of these leftists and "libertarians" (I don't know what else to call the Lew Rockwell/Ron Paul crowd) is that the sins of the US are so great that any action from would-be regional powers like Russia/China/etc. are forgiven or ignored. Or, they sit there with a straight face and declare that it's somehow a war of liberation because the people of the Caucasus/eastern Ukraine WANT Putin in charge, damnit.


So, you volunteered to liberate Iraq? Oh okay. Putting that yellow ribbon on your car was propbably close enough, right?.
 
2014-03-04 10:40:09 AM

Marcus Aurelius: MagicianNamedGob: Which one of those was a sovereign nation that we annexed?

I think "Mexico" is what you're looking for.


Oh, snap. And, let us not forget the entire central North American continent, much of the Virgin Islands, Guam, Puerto Rico, the Panama Canal Zone, Hawaii, .... Shall I go on?
 
2014-03-04 10:40:25 AM

trotsky: No. Eat it chickenhawks. The Obama doctrine will work just fine in this situation, let Europe take the lead and back them up.

If you assholes want to invade Crimea, by all means, let Mitt Romney finance your arms and equipment and you can go over. Have fun.

BTW, Mercs don't get benefits, nor do many vets anymore thanks to people like Romney.


There has to be a middle ground between "meekly accept Pooty Poot's demands" and "send in the 6th fleet NAU."
 
2014-03-04 10:40:43 AM

PapermonkeyExpress: Nadie_AZ: Yes. We are an empire. Yes, we really don't give 2 sh*ts about democracy in other nations. Yes, we barely care about equal rights at home. Yes, this is the world we live in. Yes, Russia makes us all mad because they refuse to be 2nd to us in their backyard. Yes, we hated France in 2003 for not kissing our asses.

Yes, but in this case we have a 1996 agreement signed by Bill Clinton, Boris Yeltsin and Ukraine reaffirming Ukraine's territorial boundaries and pledging to come to their assistance if it was challenged.

Seems like a lot of people have short term memories.


You're signing right up for this adventure, right?
 
2014-03-04 10:43:00 AM

manbart: stpickrell: See, the problem for a lot of these leftists and "libertarians" (I don't know what else to call the Lew Rockwell/Ron Paul crowd) is that the sins of the US are so great that any action from would-be regional powers like Russia/China/etc. are forgiven or ignored. Or, they sit there with a straight face and declare that it's somehow a war of liberation because the people of the Caucasus/eastern Ukraine WANT Putin in charge, damnit.

So, you volunteered to liberate Iraq? Oh okay. Putting that yellow ribbon on your car was propbably close enough, right?.


I was against the Iraq war as it was a terrible use of American power nor did I see the immediate need for regime change.

Do you think Putin's actions in the Crimea are in any way justifiable?
 
2014-03-04 10:43:59 AM

cgraves67: limeyfellow: MagicianNamedGob: Which one of those was a sovereign nation that we annexed?

Hawaii... It nice when you make up a vote and don't let anyone but your own troops vote.

We helped Texas secede and then annexed them. We annexed California, which was also attempting to secede from Mexico. Both of those states came voluntarily, unlike Hawaii. Let us not forget driving off or murdering Native Americans from one end of the continent to the other and annexing their territory.

We tend to romanticize "Manifest Destiny", but it was really just empire-building in the new world.


Who romanticizes it? Are they still spinning that positively in the school system? *shudders*
 
2014-03-04 10:46:41 AM

manbart: [franciscogonzalez.us image 850x478]


A farking actor?
 
2014-03-04 10:47:01 AM
When you begin to change, you will get called a hypocrite, even if you're doing exactly what you should.
 
2014-03-04 10:48:01 AM
Ironically if Ukraine hadn't given up their nukes in 1994, this would be like the India-Pakistan standoffs since the 1990s when they both got nukes. More tense but less likely to actually involve actual shooting.
 
2014-03-04 10:48:58 AM

MFAWG: PapermonkeyExpress: Nadie_AZ: Yes. We are an empire. Yes, we really don't give 2 sh*ts about democracy in other nations. Yes, we barely care about equal rights at home. Yes, this is the world we live in. Yes, Russia makes us all mad because they refuse to be 2nd to us in their backyard. Yes, we hated France in 2003 for not kissing our asses.

Yes, but in this case we have a 1996 agreement signed by Bill Clinton, Boris Yeltsin and Ukraine reaffirming Ukraine's territorial boundaries and pledging to come to their assistance if it was challenged.

Seems like a lot of people have short term memories.

You're signing right up for this adventure, right?


Are you saying Clinton shouldn't have signed the agreement? Or that we should ignore it?

Seems to me this thread was about "moral authority," right? We are only as good as our word.
 
2014-03-04 10:49:01 AM
It's ok when we do it. Because we're good and our opponents are evil. Always. It's easier to just accept American exceptionalism. Just lay back and accept this big thick democracy we're going to shoot all over your country. Now, don't you feel liberated?
 
2014-03-04 10:49:10 AM
You forgot Sudan.
 
2014-03-04 10:49:36 AM
Yes, the history of the United States, including its very recent history, is rich with examples of imperial, anti-democratic, and downright immoral foreign policy.

But since that history can't be changed, what would the author suggest our approach be now?  Perhaps we are hypocrites to say that Russia needs to stand down, but does that make the position any less right?
 
2014-03-04 10:49:56 AM

stpickrell: Do you think Putin's actions in the Crimea are in any way justifiable?


We just had that discussion dude. A couple threads ago. You're way late to the party man!
 
2014-03-04 10:50:08 AM

stpickrell: manbart: stpickrell: See, the problem for a lot of these leftists and "libertarians" (I don't know what else to call the Lew Rockwell/Ron Paul crowd) is that the sins of the US are so great that any action from would-be regional powers like Russia/China/etc. are forgiven or ignored. Or, they sit there with a straight face and declare that it's somehow a war of liberation because the people of the Caucasus/eastern Ukraine WANT Putin in charge, damnit.

So, you volunteered to liberate Iraq? Oh okay. Putting that yellow ribbon on your car was propbably close enough, right?.

I was against the Iraq war as it was a terrible use of American power nor did I see the immediate need for regime change.

Do you think Putin's actions in the Crimea are in any way justifiable?


No, it is not justifiable. But I also don't see why the US needs to play World Police in this situation either. I am aware that there is a some security council agreement or some such in which the U.S. gave some nebulous agreement to protect the Ukraine in exchange for nuclear disarmament, but if there is no binding commitment there, I do not think the United Sates should get involved.

By the way, I do not think that the "sins of the US are so great and blah blah blah." Opposition to military interventionism can be grounded in rational decision making. Waging these elective wars is a huge waste of resources and human lives, and the consequences of these adventures is a crap-chute at best.
 
2014-03-04 10:50:15 AM

trotsky: No. Eat it chickenhawks. The Obama doctrine will work just fine in this situation, let Europe take the lead and back them up.

If you assholes want to invade Crimea, by all means, let Mitt Romney finance your arms and equipment and you can go over. Have fun.

BTW, Mercs don't get benefits, nor do many vets anymore thanks to people like Romney.


I'm rather impressed by your ability to make a completely irrelevant former-bogeyman the topic of not only one but two sentences of this post. The first instance is an utterly implausible hypothetical. The second is guilt by association. The second instance is the more fascinating, because something actually bad happened, with which Romney actually had nothing to do, and yet you manage to smear the actual bad guys by associating them with him. And you do it even though there are actual bad guys who don't need to be smeared because they actually did something bad. Rather than name them, you name Romney who had nothing to do with it.  I wonder if you're afraid to do jigsaw puzzles in case, once completed, they may turn out to be a picture of Romney.
 
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