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(Mother Jones)   Study: messages designed to convince parents to vaccinate their children actually convince parents to not vaccinate their children   (motherjones.com) divider line 67
    More: Ironic, Brendan Nyhan, MMR, messages  
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1089 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Mar 2014 at 5:26 PM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-03 10:42:15 PM  

doloresonthedottedline: shamanwest: doloresonthedottedline: shamanwest:  To her, sliced tomatoes and cucumbers are a treat equal to any ...

Tomatoes are farking awesome. I only realized the past few months that I don't have to feel like an asshole for never wanting salads. Because sliced tomatoes with a bit of italian dressing is a salad. I can totally eat that without trying to like crunchy water alongside it.

/I eat tomatoes til my mouth is raw and my stomach is in agony from all the acid
//and don't regret it

Even better. If you like some other veggies, like cucumber (slightly tastier crunchy water), celery, carrot, maybe some sweet peas and/or garbanzo beans, maybe spinach, berries, and nuts (if you're not like me and 'llergic) ... you can just toss those together with your fav dressing (if you're going with fruit, I would do something like a raspberry vinaigrette) and it's a salad. You can even add cheese if you want. :D

Not that  I would do that. I don't like most of the foods that I listed there. But the kid loves mixed fruits and veggies.

Cucumbers always tasted like a bathroom product to me. Like eating lotion or makeup. I don't understand it.


They are good dipped in soy sauce. I pretty much only eat them in sushi rolls
 
2014-03-03 10:46:45 PM  

doloresonthedottedline: shamanwest:  To her, sliced tomatoes and cucumbers are a treat equal to any ...

Tomatoes are farking awesome. I only realized the past few months that I don't have to feel like an asshole for never wanting salads. Because sliced tomatoes with a bit of italian dressing is a salad. I can totally eat that without trying to like crunchy water alongside it.

/I eat tomatoes til my mouth is raw and my stomach is in agony from all the acid
//and don't regret it


try oranges with french dressing on them. farking delicious.
 
2014-03-03 10:49:52 PM  

shamanwest: One could argue that we actually breed a weaker species, dependent on these artificial means to generate immunity.


There's also an argument to be made that by negating the need the evolve better immune systems, we're allowing other positive traits, such as increased intellect, creativity, or societal cohesion, due to eliminating the specter of disease.  For instance, during the plagues of Europe, it wasn't the smartest or fastest that survived, just the ones that had a genetic makeup which gave them a better defense against the disease.  Now, it's up to us to determine how we evolve without a great concern for constant, widespread death from pandemics because I'm not completely ruling out our devolution in to Idiocracy.
 
2014-03-03 11:12:16 PM  

Alphax: doglover: I don't know. Could it have something to do with the years upon years of hyperbolic lies piled onto society by social do gooders who were full of shiat like MADD and the anti-smoking lobby? Could that have maybe, I dunno, somehow influenced your credibility in some way?

Lies?


The qualifier "hyperbolic" should give you a hint.

Look at those stats again. Smoking "related" death. That can mean lung cancer from years of smoking, or it can mean heart disease in a morbidly obese man who worked in a high stress sales position with a history of weak hearts in the family who also happened to smoke.

And what about all the other assinine crap they shove down your throats at all times? Click It Or Ticket? Yeah, because what I really need every 20 miles is a giant metal reminder to do what every car built in my entire life was required to have a built in alarm for. And all the warning lables. Peanut Butter may contain peanuts? No shiat, Sherlock.

This country...
 
2014-03-03 11:23:17 PM  

AntiNerd: 3. Anyone who ever questions the efficacy or safety of any vaccine is an anti-vaxxer even more stupid than Jenny McCarthy if that was possible.


I know you mean to be sarcastic here, but I've yet to see a counterexample to this.  Let me know if you find one.

Apart from the scientists whose job it is to test the efficacy or safety of vaccines, of course. They've had a pretty good track record so far.
 
2014-03-04 12:27:51 AM  

bborchar: Zeppelininthesky: Because they have the mentality that everything is some kind of conspiracy, nothing will convince them. You can offer whatever you like and they will ignore it for their version of the truth. I think we should force the kids to be vaccinated, and criminally charge parents that fail to do so. It is no longer a "mother's choice" anymore. Not vaccinating your child does actual harm to the population.

I'm all for this.  Obviously, with medical exemptions, but get rid of the religious ones.   Parents aren't allowed to withhold medical treatment from sick children on religious grounds, so I don't see why this doesn't apply, as well.  If, as an adult, you wish to never get a vaccine again, then that's your right...but it shouldn't be your right to endanger the lives of your and other people's children simply because you're a paranoid conspiracy nutter.


Depends on where you are.

Oregon has finally criminalized that after a series of kids died because their parents refused medical treatment and relied on prayer and anointing with oil

I think Pennsylvania is moving to criminalize it as well.
 
2014-03-04 01:14:25 AM  

abb3w: You can always tell an anti-vaxxer, but you can't tell them much.

/I hate the backfire effect
//I wonder if it's Bayesian reasoning applied to retroactive self-justification


It likely has to do with first of all, people hating to admit they're wrong; and confirmation bias. But also, I suspect based on no real evidence but common sense, that the brain resists challenge once it's decided on a course of action because back in prehistory, doing so could be fatal. I can see it would be a real advantage when we were cavemen for the brain to say "Nope, eating brown antelope is good, eating white antelope is bad; I don't care how many times you tell me the white antelope are safe, I'm sticking with what I know already," because change, back then, if you were WRONG, could kill you and everyone in your tribe. So now we're hardwired to go with what feels/sounds good and keep going because if we're wrong it MIGHT BE BAD.

Of course, things aren't like they were 50,000 years ago, but try convincing people who still think with the amygdala instead of the prefrontal cortex.
 
2014-03-04 01:34:00 AM  

Summoner101: For instance, during the plagues of Europe, it wasn't the smartest or fastest that survived, just the ones that had a genetic makeup which gave them a better defense against the disease.


And during the plague anemia made you less likely to die. Diseases can actually promote negative traits that you want to eliminate from the gene pool.
 
2014-03-04 06:41:29 AM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Summoner101: For instance, during the plagues of Europe, it wasn't the smartest or fastest that survived, just the ones that had a genetic makeup which gave them a better defense against the disease.

And during the plague anemia made you less likely to die. Diseases can actually promote negative traits that you want to eliminate from the gene pool.


Very true. So, I suppose it can be argued that while we may be replacing natural immunities form artificial ones, something that can have its own ramifications, we are also weeding out the conditions that work counter to the diseases that we're immunized against. Though anemia is not exactly uncommon.

Summoner101: shamanwest: One could argue that we actually breed a weaker species, dependent on these artificial means to generate immunity.

There's also an argument to be made that by negating the need the evolve better immune systems, we're allowing other positive traits, such as increased intellect, creativity, or societal cohesion, due to eliminating the specter of disease.  For instance, during the plagues of Europe, it wasn't the smartest or fastest that survived, just the ones that had a genetic makeup which gave them a better defense against the disease.  Now, it's up to us to determine how we evolve without a great concern for constant, widespread death from pandemics because I'm not completely ruling out our devolution in to Idiocracy.


We have less concerns about pandemics, but we're not out of the woods on that yet. We have influenza, which has a tendency to mutate fast, even with vaccinations against common strains. But assuming that, we're ending the need to evolve greater immune systems so that we can evolve in other areas ... well, we've shown that we can take control of our evolution in at least one regard,our immune system. As you point out, we're devolving into idiocracy. How do we fix that ... other than getting rid of Fark. :D
 
2014-03-04 08:09:50 AM  

doglover: Alphax: doglover: I don't know. Could it have something to do with the years upon years of hyperbolic lies piled onto society by social do gooders who were full of shiat like MADD and the anti-smoking lobby? Could that have maybe, I dunno, somehow influenced your credibility in some way?

Lies?

The qualifier "hyperbolic" should give you a hint.

Look at those stats again. Smoking "related" death. That can mean lung cancer from years of smoking, or it can mean heart disease in a morbidly obese man who worked in a high stress sales position with a history of weak hearts in the family who also happened to smoke.

And what about all the other assinine crap they shove down your throats at all times? Click It Or Ticket? Yeah, because what I really need every 20 miles is a giant metal reminder to do what every car built in my entire life was required to have a built in alarm for. And all the warning lables. Peanut Butter may contain peanuts? No shiat, Sherlock.

This country...


Information is oppression.
 
2014-03-04 08:22:01 AM  
Don't, like, germs have rights too, man?

As a species, we should happily kill every single parasite that preys on mankind... from prion to mosquito. And we should laugh maniacally as we do it, too. That should be our priority goal. It's an honest to god, all out war.

/Screw the ecosystem... if it can't take it, tough. Collateral damage.
 
2014-03-04 09:26:35 AM  

Zeppelininthesky: Because they have the mentality that everything is some kind of conspiracy, nothing will convince them. You can offer whatever you like and they will ignore it for their version of the truth. I think we should force the kids to be vaccinated, and criminally charge parents that fail to do so. It is no longer a "mother's choice" anymore. Not vaccinating your child does actual harm to the population.


Kill yourself
 
2014-03-04 10:52:52 AM  
How to change an irrational person's mind:

1: Do not debate.  Do you ever wonder why colossal assholes have such reverence for spirited debate?  Do you think those people pleasantly remember all the times the perfect opposing argument touched them just right, and they changed their mind on an issue completely?  Me neither.

Whenever someone opposes them, you, me or anyone, our brains work double time to try and "fix" inconsistencies in a way that reinforces our established world view.  In a debate, more of the logically/morally/scientifically correct ground you occupy, the more your opponent will reject that ground in order to keep their stated opinion intact.

2. Do find collateral ways to engage a person consistent with their core beliefs, but inconsistent with the belief you want to change.  You know those after school specials, or  American Dad, where the main character hates Muslims, then they meet a Muslim and realize they're normal people just like you and me, and then the main character is no longer racist towards Muslims?  That's actually close to  what works.

At a simple level, synapses are strengthened by frequency of use.  The more a person thinks about something, the stronger their beliefs towards that thing.  The key to changing a person's mind is to make them not think about the idea you want them to change, so that the synapses degrade, while making them think about inconsistent ideas, making those synapses stronger.  If you manage to get someone off Fox Nation for a while, and get them to reconnect with their gay son about anything other than being gay, eventually "I love my gay son" will predominate in their mind and "I hate gays" will fade away.  When later challenged on their opinion towards gays, they're more likely access their "I love my gay son" synapses than their "I hate gays" synapses, and their beliefs towards gays as a whole will unfold accordingly.

3. When a person does not have an established opinion, strike hard and connect the opinion you want them to have with their core beliefs.  Do you get tired of politicians talking down to you?  Do you hate being spoken to like a kindergartener by people who say things like, ". . . and that's bad for families.  I like families."?  Too bad.  That's what works.

Remember, opinions are self-reinforcing when challenged, so to create an opinion in a person's mind, you don't need to give them the whole package of information.  They just need the main idea; the talking point.  Find a way to connect the talking point to something they already feel strongly about, and your job is done.  Your target will "study it out" in conversations with friends, co-workers, relatives, etc., and their belief will only grow stronger.  This is why politicians work so hard to frame an issue ("this is about religious freedom, not discrimination").  It's also why politicians package things in such simple terms.  If you can coalesce everything a person loves or hates around a few simple core concepts - I love family!; I hate libs! - you're easier to market new ideas to.  Nobody wants to sell ideas to someone with complex values - I love northern Midwestern reformed Methodists!; I hate the strong emphasis placed on supply side economics at the expense of consumer freedom!
 
2014-03-04 12:39:53 PM  

shamanwest: Very true. So, I suppose it can be argued that while we may be replacing natural immunities form artificial ones, something that can have its own ramifications, we are also weeding out the conditions that work counter to the diseases that we're immunized against. Though anemia is not exactly uncommon.


When did we perfect bloodstream nanites?
 
2014-03-04 02:45:23 PM  

meat0918: shamanwest: Very true. So, I suppose it can be argued that while we may be replacing natural immunities form artificial ones, something that can have its own ramifications, we are also weeding out the conditions that work counter to the diseases that we're immunized against. Though anemia is not exactly uncommon.

When did we perfect bloodstream nanites?


Fair enough. I meant the way we create immunity w/vaccines.... which technically isn't ... why you gotta split hairs man! :)
 
2014-03-04 03:06:04 PM  

shamanwest: meat0918: shamanwest: Very true. So, I suppose it can be argued that while we may be replacing natural immunities form artificial ones, something that can have its own ramifications, we are also weeding out the conditions that work counter to the diseases that we're immunized against. Though anemia is not exactly uncommon.

When did we perfect bloodstream nanites?

Fair enough. I meant the way we create immunity w/vaccines.... which technically isn't ... why you gotta split hairs man! :)


My wife got me a hair splitter for Christmas, and I haven't really gotten much use out of it.

Plus I have knee jerk reactions to artificial vs natural.  While I recognize the need for a distinction, nothing man does is apart from nature.
 
2014-03-05 02:38:44 AM  

Swagulus: Zeppelininthesky: Because they have the mentality that everything is some kind of conspiracy, nothing will convince them. You can offer whatever you like and they will ignore it for their version of the truth. I think we should force the kids to be vaccinated, and criminally charge parents that fail to do so. It is no longer a "mother's choice" anymore. Not vaccinating your child does actual harm to the population.

Kill yourself


You think he's wrong about something?
 
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