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(Slate)   President Obama's big mistake in the Ukraine situation? Even suggesting there would be "consequences" for Russia if they invade Ukraine, because there are exactly two things we can do about it: jack, and shiat   (slate.com) divider line 276
    More: Obvious, President Obama, Ukraine, Russia, West Berlin, Nikita Khrushchev, Crimean, Russian Navy, Secretary of State John Kerry  
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1257 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Mar 2014 at 12:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



276 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-03 02:17:52 PM  

Geotpf: TrollingForColumbine: danknerd: manbart: Why should the United States be obligated to intervene? If anything, the US should formerly exit NATO, what is the point of being a member anyway?

Why should I care if Russia invades Crimea?

Because Ukraine gave up their nukes for protection by the U.S. (and others), if the U.S. doesn't honor the treaty, the U.S. looks weak and not trustworthy. Plus, then all the treaties of Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons go right out the window and every country will then want to protect themselves directly with Nukes instead of the international communities coming in.

interesting thanks for the info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine

If I'm reading that correctly, the only thing the US needs to do considering the current circumstances is "bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council."  So, we send it to the UN Security Council, Russia vetos any action, and that's the end of that.


It does have a beautiful simplicity, does it not?
 
2014-03-03 02:18:23 PM  

grumpfuff: mistrmind: grumpfuff: mistrmind: grumpfuff: Tyee: grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels

Europe last year, S. America this year.  You basing your opinion on what the party tells you or are you just oblivious?

I'm basing my opinion on the friends I have in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Nice try though.

So what you are saying you have no opinion.  You're just a parrot for your "friends".

Hmm. And how exactly is me parroting what my friends have said any different than him parroting what people he talked to told him?

Have you ever formed an opinion on your own?  Or do you just have it spoon fed?


So forming an opinion based on biased perceptions others have told me(not all of whom agree, btw), is not forming an opinion. Got it.



Fixed.
 
2014-03-03 02:18:52 PM  

pup.socket: Actually, there is a lot Obama and the US can do about it that doesn't involve military action.


Kicking Russia out of the G8 would make international investors quite nervous. And Putin's given Muslims in Crimea every reason to go Chechnya on him. I agree with Fareed Zakaria on this one. Putin's blowback will be the price he pays. The economic and social squeeze will be a far more powerful long-term weapon than any military show of force.
 
2014-03-03 02:18:57 PM  

Tyee: Hardly anyone respects Obama's dog anyway.


Confirmation bias?  In my right-wing blog world?  I find that hard to believe.
 
2014-03-03 02:20:02 PM  

mistrmind: QU!RK1019: mistrmind: Have you ever formed an opinion on your own?  Or do you just have it spoon fed?

Go whack off somewhere else.

Awww.  What's a matter?   Can't talk intelligently about the subject at hand?


Not with shiatbags like you around.
 
2014-03-03 02:20:14 PM  

Geotpf: ScaryBottles: Do you really believe that Vichimitter?

Not to ruin your little Harlequin Romance Daydreams but umhh.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditu re s

I'll start pissing my pants when they can afford to field even a 1/5 of our forces. If there is one thing the U.S. still does better than anyone its killing people.

If we wanted to, we could easily defeat Russia in a (non-nuclear) war.  (Nuclear war would be a tie in the "A strange game" sense.)

Of course, we would lose ten of thousands of US soldiers, kill hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers, and who knows how many civilians would die...which is why we don't want to.


I think you're significantly underestimating those casualty figures.
 
2014-03-03 02:21:11 PM  

WTF Indeed: The Russian economy, and therefore all of Putin's power, is based around the Oligarchs. If the West was the freeze their funds outside of the country and make it extremely hard for them to do business outside of the country, the Russian economy would crumble.


That is precisely what is happening.
 
2014-03-03 02:21:30 PM  

QU!RK1019: mistrmind: QU!RK1019: mistrmind: Have you ever formed an opinion on your own?  Or do you just have it spoon fed?

Go whack off somewhere else.

Awww.  What's a matter?   Can't talk intelligently about the subject at hand?

Not with shiatbags like you around.


So you can't talk intelligently.   Perhaps you should go play on the Entertainment threads here.
 
2014-03-03 02:21:35 PM  

davynelson: I'm sorry, but what right does the USA have to piss on ANYBODY regarding illegally invading another country?

fark you and your hypocritical bullshiat.

Mind your own business and you'll notice your country is in the crapper.


Hi, I'm Billy Mays!  Are you tired of America lecturing you over their own fark ups?  Have you been enviously eying a chunk of your neighbor only to have a hypocritical America wag its finger at you?  Then you need IraqAway!  IraqAway is the radical new foreign policy that allows you to seize assets from your neighbor without worrying about what America thinks!  So go ahead China, bite off a chunk of Japan.  Kashmir not enough for you India?  Grab whatever pieces of Pakistan you like.  And we haven't forgotten about you Turkey!  This is your chance to put those dreams of a free Kurdistan in the crapper once and for all!  Today only, America farked up and YOU get the prize!  Every ethnic-majority region must go!  Call now and we'll even throw in a free Alsace-Lorraine!  This offer won't last, so act now!
 
2014-03-03 02:22:49 PM  

DamnYankees: ongbok: Tyee: Obama has all but made the US irrelevant on the world stage in only five years.  He commands such little respect internationally theses days.  The silver lining is we don't need to be involved, that is, other than our NATO obligations...

There isn't any NATO obligations because Ukraine isn't a NATO member, And with that being said there is no need to address the rest of your post, because your whole NATO obligations line showed how much of an uniformed , imaginary world living idiot you are.

There are interesting NATO implications given Putin's actions. Putin has made it clear that he considers it his right to use military force to defend "Russiasn", as he sees them. That's what happened in Georgia, its whats happening in Ukraine. Neither of those countries are in NATO. But there are countries in NATO which have Russian minorities - Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania most obviously. What happens if he starts to push there?


He won't.  NATO is a true military alliance.  An attack against any NATO country by any country is to be treated by all NATO countries as a direct attack on them.

IE, if Russia attacked Poland, Estonia, Latvia, or Lithuania, the United States would treat it as if Russia attacked the United States directly.  This would start World War III, which Russia doesn't want.  Putin's not an idiot.
 
2014-03-03 02:22:54 PM  

mistrmind: grumpfuff: mistrmind: grumpfuff: mistrmind: grumpfuff: Tyee: grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels

Europe last year, S. America this year.  You basing your opinion on what the party tells you or are you just oblivious?

I'm basing my opinion on the friends I have in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Nice try though.

So what you are saying you have no opinion.  You're just a parrot for your "friends".

Hmm. And how exactly is me parroting what my friends have said any different than him parroting what people he talked to told him?

Have you ever formed an opinion on your own?  Or do you just have it spoon fed?


So forming an opinion based on biased perceptions others have told me(not all of whom agree, btw), is not forming an opinion. Got it.


Fixed.


So you missed the part where I said not all of them agree, huh?

By the way, the really funny part about this is that I don't have an overly positive view. They just don't view us as "irrelevant."
 
2014-03-03 02:23:25 PM  

grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels all over the world and how you gained an in-depth knowledge of how other countries view the US.Or are you just saying that because feels?


Was that you?  Asked and delivered.  We're done, continue on defending the indefensible, it makes you look so smart.
 
2014-03-03 02:24:32 PM  

Tyee: grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels all over the world and how you gained an in-depth knowledge of how other countries view the US.Or are you just saying that because feels?

Was that you?  Asked and delivered.  We're done, continue on defending the indefensible, it makes you look so smart.


You mean the part before you mentioned your travels?

My apologies, let me be more specific. Please point out where I dismissed your travels AFTER you told me about them.
 
2014-03-03 02:24:57 PM  

mistrmind: QU!RK1019: mistrmind: QU!RK1019: mistrmind: Have you ever formed an opinion on your own?  Or do you just have it spoon fed?

Go whack off somewhere else.

Awww.  What's a matter?   Can't talk intelligently about the subject at hand?

Not with shiatbags like you around.

So you can't talk intelligently.   Perhaps you should go play on the Entertainment threads here.


Send us a postcard from pl0nkistan
 
2014-03-03 02:25:06 PM  

Skleenar: In my right-wing blog world?


Don't have one unless its here.
 
2014-03-03 02:25:21 PM  

Mentat: davynelson: I'm sorry, but what right does the USA have to piss on ANYBODY regarding illegally invading another country?

fark you and your hypocritical bullshiat.

Mind your own business and you'll notice your country is in the crapper.

Hi, I'm Billy Mays!  Are you tired of America lecturing you over their own fark ups?  Have you been enviously eying a chunk of your neighbor only to have a hypocritical America wag its finger at you?  Then you need IraqAway!  IraqAway is the radical new foreign policy that allows you to seize assets from your neighbor without worrying about what America thinks!  So go ahead China, bite off a chunk of Japan.  Kashmir not enough for you India?  Grab whatever pieces of Pakistan you like.  And we haven't forgotten about you Turkey!  This is your chance to put those dreams of a free Kurdistan in the crapper once and for all!  Today only, America farked up and YOU get the prize!  Every ethnic-majority region must go!  Call now and we'll even throw in a free Alsace-Lorraine!  This offer won't last, so act now!


France eyes Quibec.... the rest of Canada seen in the backgound doing a happy dance.
 
2014-03-03 02:28:29 PM  
Obama should use his Kenyan sorcery to force Putin onto Obamacare. As we all know, Obamacare immediately drives up healthcare costs beyond the means of the president's political foes.

Checkmate, Comrade Putin.
 
2014-03-03 02:30:30 PM  
Though all choices come with drawbacks, there are considerable options in the spectrum of action that fall in between strongly worded letters and tossing nukes haphazardly.

So, who does Putin have checking his breakfast cereal for Polonium?
 
2014-03-03 02:30:43 PM  

qorkfiend: Geotpf: ScaryBottles: Do you really believe that Vichimitter?

Not to ruin your little Harlequin Romance Daydreams but umhh.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditu re s

I'll start pissing my pants when they can afford to field even a 1/5 of our forces. If there is one thing the U.S. still does better than anyone its killing people.

If we wanted to, we could easily defeat Russia in a (non-nuclear) war.  (Nuclear war would be a tie in the "A strange game" sense.)

Of course, we would lose ten of thousands of US soldiers, kill hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers, and who knows how many civilians would die...which is why we don't want to.

I think you're significantly underestimating those casualty figures.


Possibly.  Depends on how the war would happen.  Do we literally have to send US troops to take Red Square, or do they actually surrender after we bomb the crap out of them for weeks?  Assuming nukes are off the table, we should be able to have air superiority.

Of course, said war will never actually happen, so meh.
 
2014-03-03 02:30:45 PM  

grumpfuff: My apologies,


Your forgiven, but as I said, we're done.  You have defense and deflection to play.
 
2014-03-03 02:31:46 PM  

Tyee: grumpfuff: My apologies,

Your forgiven, but as I said, we're done.  You have defense and deflection to play.


lol

Quoting out of context for the win!

How's the weather up on that cross?
 
2014-03-03 02:33:09 PM  

Tyee: Your forgiven


You're/ you are/ forgiven.   That is twice today, my fault.
 
2014-03-03 02:33:45 PM  

Tyee: Was that you? Asked and delivered. We're done, continue on defending the indefensible, it makes you look so smart.


What is "indefensible" in this instance?  I assume you are talking about some action or non-action by the US.  Please be specific.
 
2014-03-03 02:35:42 PM  

Tyee: ongbok: Tyee: Obama has all but made the US irrelevant on the world stage in only five years.  He commands such little respect internationally theses days.  The silver lining is we don't need to be involved, that is, other than our NATO obligations...

There isn't any NATO obligations because Ukraine isn't a NATO member, And with that being said there is no need to address the rest of your post, because your whole NATO obligations.....


http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/02/28/ukraine-appeals-us-uk- so vereignty

Your right it's the UK and USA obligations.  Now feel free to address the rendering of irrelevance Obama has bestowed on the USA.  Don't bother, please just continue to defend his ineptitude, it suits you better ignoring the obvious.


And the US and UK are doing what is required of them by that agreement.

Why do you all keep bringing this up over and over when every time you bring it up you get slapped down? I guess Emerson was right when he said "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"
 
2014-03-03 02:39:44 PM  

manbart: My point is that it's easy to call for military intervention when its somebody else that will do the fighting. Would these armchair saber rattlers really be as gung-ho about intervention if they were the ones who would be put in harms way?

A military intervention is not a Hollywood movie. The cost is very real, both in terms of people's lives and economic consequences. A knee-jerk, sound tough reaction is not a valid reason for getting involved in a military conflict.


You're still making assumptions about his background, though.  Even someone who has experienced the hell of war may still concede its necessity.

The point is, if you're personally feeling as though the crisis in Ukraine isn't worth the cost, come right out and say it.  But don't just assume he doesn't give a shiat about the real costs of war.  Everyone knows that, especially in present day America.
 
2014-03-03 02:39:56 PM  

Skleenar: Tyee: Was that you? Asked and delivered. We're done, continue on defending the indefensible, it makes you look so smart.

What is "indefensible" in this instance?  I assume you are talking about some action or non-action by the US.  Please be specific.


No, he's just declaring victory over me because I had the audacity to not read his mind and know he had traveled.
 
2014-03-03 02:42:34 PM  

Skleenar: Please be specific.


Putin has no respect for Obama or the threats Obama makes of consequences.   In the past Putin at least would take out a full page in the NYT or The Post.  I doubt he'll be giving Obama that much of an acknowledgement of importance this time around.

Specific enough?  Feel free to defend Obama's command for respectability.
 
2014-03-03 02:43:10 PM  

grumpfuff: No, he's just declaring victory over me because I had the audacity to not read his mind and know he had traveled.


Everyone knows that mindreading is how the Right is always so far ahead of the Left in this country.  They're simply better infromed because of their psychic powers.
 
2014-03-03 02:43:37 PM  

mistrmind: So you can't talk intelligently.   Perhaps you should go play on the Entertainment threads here.


WHY THE AD HOMINEM ATTACKS, YOU TROLL?!
 
2014-03-03 02:43:49 PM  

Tyee: Putin has no respect for Obama or the threats Obama makes of consequences.


See?  Mindreading.

How can a poor lefty compete with omniscience like this?
 
2014-03-03 02:46:47 PM  

abb3w: Though all choices come with drawbacks, there are considerable options in the spectrum of action that fall in between strongly worded letters and tossing nukes haphazardly.

So, who does Putin have checking his breakfast cereal for Polonium?


He's spent the last five years building up an immunity to Polonium.
 
2014-03-03 02:47:39 PM  
For what its worth, a colleague of mine in touch with Ukraine's leftist movement has linked to a new statement from an anarchist collective there accusing the local liberals of collaborating with Yanukovych and propping up Russian influence there in the name of "anti-fascism."
 
2014-03-03 02:48:55 PM  
We can try to do some things economically but no one is going to risk a nuclear World War III.  The fact that we have no real military option should be no surprise.  See Georgia 2008, Afghanistan 1979, Czechoslovakia 1968, Hungary 1956.  All the blustering by the right wing folks is just a lot of talk made with the knowledge that with their talk there is no action or consequences.  And the truth is that Russia takes no action if and when we do similar.
 
2014-03-03 02:50:28 PM  

Tyee: Feel free to defend Obama's command for respectability.


Despite your obvious Obama Derangement Syndrome issues, this really doesn't have anything to do with him. His statement was made essentially alongside David Cameron's and was in reference to the Budapest Memorandum.
 
2014-03-03 02:50:39 PM  

Skleenar: See? Mindreading.


As apposed to mindless readings into the obvious I guess.

Good luck to you Skleenar,
 
2014-03-03 02:52:19 PM  

QU!RK1019: You're still making assumptions about his background, though.  Even someone who has experienced the hell of war may still concede its necessity.

The point is, if you're personally feeling as though the crisis in Ukraine isn't worth the cost, come right out and say it.  But don't just assume he doesn't give a shiat about the real costs of war.  Everyone knows that, especially in present day America.


You're right, I am making assumptions. But this is the Fark politics tab, isn't that par for the course? If my assumptions were wrong, I think those posters would have called me out by now anyway.

I don't think it's any secret that I personally don't feel as though the crisis in the Ukraine is worth the cost. This should be clear from my posts in this thread.
 
2014-03-03 02:55:04 PM  

Tyee: Skleenar: Please be specific.

Putin has no respect for Obama or the threats Obama makes of consequences.   In the past Putin at least would take out a full page in the NYT or The Post.  I doubt he'll be giving Obama that much of an acknowledgement of importance this time around.

Specific enough?  Feel free to defend Obama's command for respectability.


Okay, let's say you're correct and he doesn't respect Obama or his threats.  How would this be different from Romney?  What would Romney have done now or the the past 5-6 years such that it would have prevented Russia from invading the Crimean peninsula?
 
2014-03-03 02:55:09 PM  

manbart: You're right, I am making assumptions. But this is the Fark politics tab, isn't that par for the course? If my assumptions were wrong, I think those posters would have called me out by now anyway.

I don't think it's any secret that I personally don't feel as though the crisis in the Ukraine is worth the cost. This should be clear from my posts in this thread.


This is the Fark politics tab, which means you should never utter those wretched words: "You're right."  ;)
 
2014-03-03 02:58:55 PM  

Tomahawk513: How would this be different from Romney? What would Romney have done now or the the past 5-6 years such that it would have prevented Russia from invading the Crimean peninsula?


Don't be silly.  Rmoney is basically a democrat. You should be asking how fearful Putin would be of the Canadian Cruzer that is the rightful president in right-wing Contrafactualstan.
 
2014-03-03 02:59:40 PM  

Isitoveryet: QU!RK1019: Remember when Bush murdered Saddam with the blunt force of his macho American donkey phallus?  Pepperidge Farm remembers.  Stupid Obama will just appease Putin.  Palin would drowned him with her milky teats.

it would be like that scene in Conan the Barbarian (the old one, not the crappy new one) when Conan (Putin) gets seduced by the witch (Palin) who eventually turns into a ball of blue flame & exits the scene when she realizes that Conan has bested her both physically and sexually.

what i'm saying is that Palin is a worthless lash batter.


My friends and I also had a neat trick for conjuring a ball of blue flame.
 
2014-03-03 03:03:09 PM  

Tomahawk513: Okay, let's say you're correct and he doesn't respect Obama or his threats.


We already know that, and this isn't and doesn't have anything to do with Romney.  We or I have no known circumstances of interaction between them unless they are invented.
 
2014-03-03 03:05:50 PM  
Tomahawk513: Okay, let's say you're correct and he doesn't respect Obama or his threats.

Tyee: We already know that


It was beamed into our heads from the EIB network.  It's more factual than fact.
 
2014-03-03 03:07:37 PM  

mrshowrules: what i'm saying is that Palin is a worthless lash batter.

My friends and I also had a neat trick for conjuring a ball of blue flame.


we're not talking about lighting our farts on fire are we? I hear you can actually explode doing that.
 
2014-03-03 03:08:05 PM  

Tyee: Tomahawk513: Okay, let's say you're correct and he doesn't respect Obama or his threats.

We already know that, and this isn't and doesn't have anything to do with Romney.  We or I have no known circumstances of interaction between them unless they are invented.


His point is that in all likely hood Putin would have done this regardless of who the US President is.  This is more about Putin being a megalomaniac than anything Obama has said or done.
 
2014-03-03 03:09:18 PM  
How about economic sanctions against its oil exports? How about a ban on luxury exports into Russia? How about kicking it out of the G8? How about restrictions on tech imports?

For fark's sakes we do the same thing to China and Iran.
 
2014-03-03 03:11:57 PM  

Tyee: Obama has all but made the US irrelevant on the world stage in only five years.  He commands such little respect internationally theses days.  The silver lining is we don't need to be involved, that is, other than our NATO obligations...


Unlike the previous 8 years, when the US was so well beloved and respected.
 
2014-03-03 03:15:32 PM  

Almost Everybody Poops: This is more about Putin being a megalomaniac than anything Obama has said or done.


No, this is about "respect", and who Putin would or wouldn't.  Because that's what's really important on the world stage:  Who a Russian strongman would respect.

You wouldn't understand, because you're a libtard and probably a homosexual.  What the US needs is a muscular international presence, one backed by a credible, masculine military that can project its power with deep thrusts into the yielding core of even the most hardened opponent.  That is the only way you can stay on top and show the bear who's boss.
 
2014-03-03 03:23:44 PM  

DamnYankees: Skleenar: DamnYankees: There are interesting NATO implications given Putin's actions. Putin has made it clear that he considers it his right to use military force to defend "Russiasn", as he sees them. That's what happened in Georgia, its whats happening in Ukraine. Neither of those countries are in NATO. But there are countries in NATO which have Russian minorities - Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania most obviously. What happens if he starts to push there?

I am pretty sure that the Kremlin arithmetic changes for those countries. Nor do they seem as important to the Russians in an economic and defense sense as Ukraine.

Changes, sure. I mean, I would imagine Russia is less likely to attach Latvia than Ukraine. But that doesn't mean the chances move to 0.


One of two things: War, or NATO falls apart as no one can trust anyone will help them. The Baltics have tried their level best to contribute excessively. Lithuania decided there's no point in going with a big an army as possible because they can't possibly last minutes against Russia. So they went small and spent huge amount of their budget to make the best brigade they could in terms of training, equipping, and (most importantly) deployability. The Motorized Infantry "Iron Wolf" Brigade has spent substantial amount of time in Afghanistan fighting with the US and taking on significant responsibilities. They invaded Iraq with America. When asked, they deployed to Bosnia and Kosovo.

I'm just sad to think it'll eventually be all for naught because when Russia comes-a-knockin', the American public will just say, "Who? Why? What have they done for us? That's Russia's sphere of influence we have no business there."
 
2014-03-03 03:25:46 PM  

Isitoveryet: mrshowrules: what i'm saying is that Palin is a worthless lash batter.

My friends and I also had a neat trick for conjuring a ball of blue flame.

we're not talking about lighting our farts on fire are we? I hear you can actually explode doing that.


Danger is my middle name.
 
2014-03-03 03:26:19 PM  

Almost Everybody Poops: His point is that in all likely hood Putin would have done this regardless of who the US President is. This is more about Putin being a megalomaniac than anything Obama has said or done.


Possibly.  But it is obvious Putin holds little regard for Obama and his threats, that was my point. That is what the Obama Defence Team has mobilized against.  They haven't said that Putin respects and fears Obama, they just won't admit he doesn't.  As for the; but any other president.... blah, blah, blah isn't relevant to Obama and Putin's relationship, however deflection from it seems to be strangely necessary.
 
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