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(Slate)   President Obama's big mistake in the Ukraine situation? Even suggesting there would be "consequences" for Russia if they invade Ukraine, because there are exactly two things we can do about it: jack, and shiat   (slate.com) divider line 276
    More: Obvious, President Obama, Ukraine, Russia, West Berlin, Nikita Khrushchev, Crimean, Russian Navy, Secretary of State John Kerry  
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1246 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Mar 2014 at 12:30 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-03 01:33:15 PM  

mistrmind: PC LOAD LETTER: mistrmind: qorkfiend: mistrmind: pup.socket: Actually, there is a lot Obama and the US can do about it that doesn't involve military action.


Thank you for the biggest laugh I've had all day.

You believe the only options are "Invade now" or "do nothing"?

I believe we have many options to weigh.   However, we're talking Obama here, who is pretty much ineffective and bogged down as a President.   He's more concerned on how he looks than on what the correct course of action should be.

And what would that be?

Sanctions? Trade deal breaking? Ooooo that'll teach them!

I don't know.  You need to ask Gorkfiend that question.


Who?
 
2014-03-03 01:33:49 PM  

jchuffyman: My facebook has been lighting up with some more conservative friends shouting "ROMNEY WAS RIGHT" and linking that debate video where Obama laughs off Romney's idea that Russia is that greatest enemy ever of all time!!! This still hardly affects the US, especially in terms of actively threatening us, which makes this attempted reclaiming of a failed GOP candidate even more hilarious


If Romney was President now, today, nuclear war would have started 20 minutes ago.
 
2014-03-03 01:33:58 PM  

manbart: Saiga410: A little chunk of this country with a high Russ population here a little there then next the tanks are rolling down mainstreet Warswa.... 39 all over again.

Good point. I propose that we drop Saiga410 off behind enemy lines to wage a single man Rambo-esque campaign against the commies.


Na but I do plan on leading a rag tag bunch of miscreants to hold up a bank on the wrong side of the lines.  All I need is a beatnick tank driver.
 
2014-03-03 01:34:18 PM  
Crimea is just Russia's "West bank".

All is well nothing to see here,move along.
 
2014-03-03 01:37:08 PM  
Things the US/west can do:
Kick Russia out of G8
Restrict Russian access to financial markets
Deny visas to Russians

The last two will matter a lot to Russia's ruling class.
 
2014-03-03 01:37:15 PM  

danknerd: jchuffyman: My facebook has been lighting up with some more conservative friends shouting "ROMNEY WAS RIGHT" and linking that debate video where Obama laughs off Romney's idea that Russia is that greatest enemy ever of all time!!! This still hardly affects the US, especially in terms of actively threatening us, which makes this attempted reclaiming of a failed GOP candidate even more hilarious

If Romney was President now, today, nuclear war would have started 20 minutes ago.


Yeah, I guess this is an Obama is weak day on the talking points calendar
 
2014-03-03 01:37:27 PM  

Ring of Fire: It's sick how the right seems to want a huge war just so they can make Obama look bad.
It's like the want Putin to nuke Kiev just so they can say thanks Obama.


That's the "I miss W" wing of the American right. The real fever swamps, along with the European right, want the Russians to smash their way into Kiev and keep going till Berlin just to spite the globalists. Apparently if a government hates commies and Muslims as much as you do, and their (state-controlled) media tells you what you want to hear about how George Soros rules the world, they can do no wrong.

Chances are, Putin's army won't march all the way to Kiev---he didn't try to reclaim Georgia either. But he could, meeting about as much resistance as the Americans got from the Iraqi regulars in 2003. That he clearly hasn't yet ruled that out should terrify anybody who means Europe well and isn't interested in winning a pissing match.

Actually, even were I a sociopathic and perfectly unrepentant ex-KGB advisor to Putin, I might try talking Vladimir Vladimirovich out of it (if I hadn't already). This could easily be his Afghanistan. The leaders of West Ukraine have the backing of the west and could well get covert support for a long time after Yanukovich or another Putin loyalist is restored. Ukraine could take many years to completely re-conquer, if it's even possible at all.
 
2014-03-03 01:38:15 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Things the US/west can do:
Kick Russia out of G8
Restrict Russian access to financial markets
Deny visas to Russians

The last two will matter a lot to Russia's ruling class.


Yeah but that doesn't really pump your nads, does it?  We want tanks and cruise missiles and big booms!
 
2014-03-03 01:39:26 PM  
Believe me. Sooner or later, one way or another, this will end up biting Putin in the ass. Obama never forgets, and Obama keeps score, and payback always happens eventually.
 
2014-03-03 01:40:01 PM  

danknerd: jchuffyman: My facebook has been lighting up with some more conservative friends shouting "ROMNEY WAS RIGHT" and linking that debate video where Obama laughs off Romney's idea that Russia is that greatest enemy ever of all time!!! This still hardly affects the US, especially in terms of actively threatening us, which makes this attempted reclaiming of a failed GOP candidate even more hilarious

If Romney was President now, today, nuclear war would have started 20 minutes ago.


Nah.  As much as I love to dig on Rmoney, he'd be doing the exact same thing as Obama here.  He's a businessman.  He'd understand both how costly war would be, and how much the international community can damage Russia's economy using passive measures, like sanctions.  And honestly, I think this is the right course of action.  I don't think it's going to make a bit of difference to Putin, but what can ya do?
 
2014-03-03 01:40:45 PM  

jwa007: Eddie Adams from Torrance: We still have nukes, don't we?

So do the Russians.


Any of them without rust all over them?
 
2014-03-03 01:41:31 PM  
manbart:  Why should I care if Russia invades Crimea?

You should care about the geo-political boundaries of countries and their sovereignty. This is why the UN was founded. You should care about trade and future trade, and the global economy. You should care about our allies ( and future allies ); like Poland, Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Georgia (Future Allies like Ukraine/ Belorussia/ Moldova and Dagestan). And you should care about old grannies and babies, who will get hurt/die when good men do nothing to stand in the way of evil. We are repeating the past, as we have not had the for-sight to avoid the same old issues. Say No to belligerence and bullying. This is armed robbery writ large, with people's lives at stake.
 
2014-03-03 01:41:40 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Believe me. Sooner or later, one way or another, this will end up biting Putin in the ass. Obama never forgets, and Obama keeps score, and payback always happens eventually.


We do not forgive.
We do not forget.
Expect us.
Obamanonymous.
 
2014-03-03 01:41:57 PM  

qorkfiend: mistrmind: PC LOAD LETTER: mistrmind: qorkfiend: mistrmind: pup.socket: Actually, there is a lot Obama and the US can do about it that doesn't involve military action.


Thank you for the biggest laugh I've had all day.

You believe the only options are "Invade now" or "do nothing"?

I believe we have many options to weigh.   However, we're talking Obama here, who is pretty much ineffective and bogged down as a President.   He's more concerned on how he looks than on what the correct course of action should be.

And what would that be?

Sanctions? Trade deal breaking? Ooooo that'll teach them!

I don't know.  You need to ask Gorkfiend that question.

Who?


Nobody important obviously.
 
2014-03-03 01:42:01 PM  
Obama has all but made the US irrelevant on the world stage in only five years.  He commands such little respect internationally theses days.  The silver lining is we don't need to be involved, that is, other than our NATO obligations...
 
2014-03-03 01:42:56 PM  

Swampmaster: manbart:  Why should I care if Russia invades Crimea?

You should care about the geo-political boundaries of countries and their sovereignty. This is why the UN was founded. You should care about trade and future trade, and the global economy. You should care about our allies ( and future allies ); like Poland, Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Georgia (Future Allies like Ukraine/ Belorussia/ Moldova and Dagestan). And you should care about old grannies and babies, who will get hurt/die when good men do nothing to stand in the way of evil. We are repeating the past, as we have not had the for-sight to avoid the same old issues. Say No to belligerence and bullying. This is armed robbery writ large, with people's lives at stake.


So I take it you bought yourself a gun and a ticket to the Ukraine? Oh, you mean you want somebody else to go fight for your noble ideals. Got it.
 
2014-03-03 01:43:25 PM  

Swampmaster: manbart:  Why should I care if Russia invades Crimea?

You should care about the geo-political boundaries of countries and their sovereignty. This is why the UN was founded. You should care about trade and future trade, and the global economy. You should care about our allies ( and future allies ); like Poland, Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Georgia (Future Allies like Ukraine/ Belorussia/ Moldova and Dagestan). And you should care about old grannies and babies, who will get hurt/die when good men do nothing to stand in the way of evil. We are repeating the past, as we have not had the for-sight to avoid the same old issues. Say No to belligerence and bullying. This is armed robbery writ large, with people's lives at stake.


D.A.R.E.
Dictator Abuse Resistance Education
 
2014-03-03 01:43:56 PM  

Tyee: Obama has all but made the US irrelevant on the world stage in only five years.  He commands such little respect internationally theses days.  The silver lining is we don't need to be involved, that is, other than our NATO obligations...


Yes, tell us about your extensive travels all over the world and how you gained an in-depth knowledge of how other countries view the US.

Or are you just saying that because feels?
 
2014-03-03 01:45:10 PM  

Tyee: Obama has all but made the US irrelevant on the world stage in only five years.  He commands such little respect internationally theses days.  The silver lining is we don't need to be involved, that is, other than our NATO obligations...


There isn't any NATO obligations because Ukraine isn't a NATO member, And with that being said there is no need to address the rest of your post, because your whole NATO obligations line showed how much of an uniformed , imaginary world living idiot you are.
 
2014-03-03 01:45:30 PM  

manbart: So I take it you bought yourself a gun and a ticket to the Ukraine? Oh, you mean you want somebody else to go fight for your noble ideals. Got it.


You're happy when innocent people die because you have no noble ideals.  Got it.
 
2014-03-03 01:45:35 PM  

Tomahawk513: danknerd: jchuffyman: My facebook has been lighting up with some more conservative friends shouting "ROMNEY WAS RIGHT" and linking that debate video where Obama laughs off Romney's idea that Russia is that greatest enemy ever of all time!!! This still hardly affects the US, especially in terms of actively threatening us, which makes this attempted reclaiming of a failed GOP candidate even more hilarious

If Romney was President now, today, nuclear war would have started 20 minutes ago.

Nah.  As much as I love to dig on Rmoney, he'd be doing the exact same thing as Obama here.  He's a businessman.  He'd understand both how costly war would be, and how much the international community can damage Russia's economy using passive measures, like sanctions.  And honestly, I think this is the right course of action.  I don't think it's going to make a bit of difference to Putin, but what can ya do?


That's what makes it funnier to me. Obama is doing exactly what any person would do in this situation, but they act like their guy would have personally parachuted onto Red Square and put Putin into a chokehold (after shiatting on Lenin's corpse in the Mausoleum)
 
2014-03-03 01:46:39 PM  

mistrmind: Superjew: Nothing brings out the freeper retard brigade like a rainy monday morning.

Awwww, is your precious President just not doing it for you.   Awwww.  Poor baby.


That's funny, all the crying in here seems to be on your side of the crib.

Pro tip: that shiny thing you are getting angry at is called a mirror.
 
2014-03-03 01:48:12 PM  
I'm sorry, but what right does the USA have to piss on ANYBODY regarding illegally invading another country?

fark you and your hypocritical bullshiat.

Mind your own business and you'll notice your country is in the crapper.
 
2014-03-03 01:48:40 PM  

grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels


Europe last year, S. America this year.  You basing your opinion on what the party tells you or are you just oblivious?
 
2014-03-03 01:49:01 PM  

ongbok: Tyee: Obama has all but made the US irrelevant on the world stage in only five years.  He commands such little respect internationally theses days.  The silver lining is we don't need to be involved, that is, other than our NATO obligations...

There isn't any NATO obligations because Ukraine isn't a NATO member, And with that being said there is no need to address the rest of your post, because your whole NATO obligations line showed how much of an uniformed , imaginary world living idiot you are.


There are interesting NATO implications given Putin's actions. Putin has made it clear that he considers it his right to use military force to defend "Russiasn", as he sees them. That's what happened in Georgia, its whats happening in Ukraine. Neither of those countries are in NATO. But there are countries in NATO which have Russian minorities - Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania most obviously. What happens if he starts to push there?
 
2014-03-03 01:49:42 PM  
Ya know the consequences are Putin just pushing a button and really screwing us over. Thats why Obama needs to just shut his face hole. Ukraine is part of Russia the end. It does nothing for us or to us. Unless Obama cant shut his mouth. Bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.
 
2014-03-03 01:50:04 PM  

QU!RK1019: You're happy when innocent people die because you have no noble ideals.  Got it.


It's really the only logical conclusion. I'm kinda like Hitler crossed with genghis khan.
 
2014-03-03 01:50:19 PM  

Superjew: mistrmind: Superjew: Nothing brings out the freeper retard brigade like a rainy monday morning.

Awwww, is your precious President just not doing it for you.   Awwww.  Poor baby.

That's funny, all the crying in here seems to be on your side of the crib.

Pro tip: that shiny thing you are getting angry at is called a mirror.


No crying here Whinny McWhinester.
 
2014-03-03 01:51:33 PM  

Tyee: grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels

Europe last year, S. America this year.  You basing your opinion on what the party tells you or are you just oblivious?


I'm basing my opinion on the friends I have in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Nice try though.
 
2014-03-03 01:55:44 PM  

grumpfuff: Tyee: grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels

Europe last year, S. America this year.  You basing your opinion on what the party tells you or are you just oblivious?

I'm basing my opinion on the friends I have in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Nice try though.


So what you are saying you have no opinion.  You're just a parrot for your "friends".
 
2014-03-03 01:57:51 PM  

DamnYankees: There are interesting NATO implications given Putin's actions. Putin has made it clear that he considers it his right to use military force to defend "Russiasn", as he sees them. That's what happened in Georgia, its whats happening in Ukraine. Neither of those countries are in NATO. But there are countries in NATO which have Russian minorities - Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania most obviously. What happens if he starts to push there?


I am pretty sure that the Kremlin arithmetic changes for those countries. Nor do they seem as important to the Russians in an economic and defense sense as Ukraine.
 
2014-03-03 01:57:59 PM  

ongbok: Tyee: Obama has all but made the US irrelevant on the world stage in only five years.  He commands such little respect internationally theses days.  The silver lining is we don't need to be involved, that is, other than our NATO obligations...

There isn't any NATO obligations because Ukraine isn't a NATO member, And with that being said there is no need to address the rest of your post, because your whole NATO obligations.....



http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/02/28/ukraine-appeals-us-uk- so vereignty

Your right it's the UK and USA obligations.  Now feel free to address the rendering of irrelevance Obama has bestowed on the USA.  Don't bother, please just continue to defend his ineptitude, it suits you better ignoring the obvious.
 
2014-03-03 01:58:52 PM  

mistrmind: grumpfuff: Tyee: grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels

Europe last year, S. America this year.  You basing your opinion on what the party tells you or are you just oblivious?

I'm basing my opinion on the friends I have in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Nice try though.

So what you are saying you have no opinion.  You're just a parrot for your "friends".


Hmm. And how exactly is me parroting what my friends have said any different than him parroting what people he talked to told him?
 
2014-03-03 01:59:05 PM  

Skleenar: DamnYankees: There are interesting NATO implications given Putin's actions. Putin has made it clear that he considers it his right to use military force to defend "Russiasn", as he sees them. That's what happened in Georgia, its whats happening in Ukraine. Neither of those countries are in NATO. But there are countries in NATO which have Russian minorities - Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania most obviously. What happens if he starts to push there?

I am pretty sure that the Kremlin arithmetic changes for those countries. Nor do they seem as important to the Russians in an economic and defense sense as Ukraine.


Changes, sure. I mean, I would imagine Russia is less likely to attach Latvia than Ukraine. But that doesn't mean the chances move to 0.
 
2014-03-03 02:00:44 PM  

grumpfuff: I'm basing my opinion on the friends I have in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Nice try though.


Wow, like minded people are like minded.
 
2014-03-03 02:03:51 PM  

Tyee: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/02/28/ukraine-appeals-us-uk- so vereignty

Your right it's the UK and USA obligations. Now feel free to address the rendering of irrelevance Obama has bestowed on the USA. Don't bother, please just continue to defend his ineptitude, it suits you better ignoring the obvious.


From your link:

"Legislators voted to demand guarantees of a 1994 memorandum that Ukraine signed with the Britain, Russia and the United States in Budapest safeguarding its borders and independence in return for giving up any nuclear arsenals left in the country after the collapse of the Soviet Union. "

I am not sure that a memorandum hold any real force in international law.  Additionally, since one of the signatories to the memorandum is the one violating the borders, this obviously complicates the matter.  But, of course, the UK and US should then revert to the recourse that was explicitly stated in the memorandum:

Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.


Well, seems like we're kind of doing that.
 
2014-03-03 02:04:05 PM  

manbart: QU!RK1019: You're happy when innocent people die because you have no noble ideals.  Got it.

It's really the only logical conclusion. I'm kinda like Hitler crossed with genghis khan.


I was just playing the same "Jump To Conclusions!" game you were, man.
 
2014-03-03 02:04:25 PM  

grumpfuff: Hmm. And how exactly is me parroting what my friends have said any different than him parroting what people he talked to told him?


So you're now saying that my opinion is at least as valuable as yours?  But you never went, you just talked, and devalued my seeing and hearing with my own eyes over your...what?

Never mind.
 
2014-03-03 02:05:09 PM  

DamnYankees:  But there are countries in NATO which have Russian minorities - Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania most obviously. What happens if he starts to push there?


He won't.  But, just for the sake of argument, let's say he does.

NATO ends up with a renewed justification for its existence.  Every general, military contracting company, and chickenhawk starts salivating at the opportunity to use those fancy new toys we've built.  Americans rally around the idea that we're fighting a new Hitler, as well as the idea that we don't have to engage in half-hearted "peacekeeping"; we can actually fight with the true strength of our military.  Raptors and Typhoons finally get scrambled for some real duty, and the Russian government learns that the post WW2 line in the sand is Poland (a country, I might add, that still has fresh memories of Nazi/Soviet occupation and would fight like rabid pitbulls to keep from repeating the same horror again).

At that point, Putin doesn't just lose.  He gets annihilated because encroachment upon full fledged NATO states is tantamount to suicide.

Which is why he won't.
 
2014-03-03 02:07:04 PM  

NeoAnderthal: This reminds me of Bill Clinton constantly wagging his impotent finger at Saddam Hussein. we all saw what that got us. This is exactly why liberals have the deserved reputation for being pussies on the world stage.


Here is a list of dead terrorist leaders under Obama. Note that this list is two years old. http://politicalresearchdatabase.tumblr.com/post/34975879567

Under Bush we had the largest terrorist attack on Americans EVER. You have to be completely brainwashed and delusional to say that Obama has been weak against perceived enemies. He even continued the unjustified Bush wars so you righties should be overjoyed with his love of violence. Now Obama is trying to deal with this Russian/Ukraine mess in ways other than starting a world war and THAT makes him weak?!! You righties don't want to deal with facts. You biatch about endless debt. You don't want to give healthcare to the poor, extended benefits to the unemployed, housing to the homeless or food to Americas hungry but you want to wage war against every country on the globe at the slightest provocation. Republicans and Libertarians are the most evil, financially irresponsible, violent groups on earth. You hate the radical Muslims but the American Left is the only thing keeping you from being just as violently radical. In your views the answer to everything is murder.
 
2014-03-03 02:07:31 PM  

grumpfuff: mistrmind: grumpfuff: Tyee: grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels

Europe last year, S. America this year.  You basing your opinion on what the party tells you or are you just oblivious?

I'm basing my opinion on the friends I have in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Nice try though.

So what you are saying you have no opinion.  You're just a parrot for your "friends".

Hmm. And how exactly is me parroting what my friends have said any different than him parroting what people he talked to told him?


Have you ever formed an opinion on your own?  Or do you just have it spoon fed?
 
2014-03-03 02:09:00 PM  

mistrmind: Have you ever formed an opinion on your own?  Or do you just have it spoon fed?


Go whack off somewhere else.
 
2014-03-03 02:10:21 PM  

Skleenar: Well, seems like we're kind of doing that.


2 of 6?
Regardless we don't have a dog in this fight.  Hardly anyone respects Obama's dog anyway.
 
2014-03-03 02:10:56 PM  

ScaryBottles: Do you really believe that Vichimitter?

Not to ruin your little Harlequin Romance Daydreams but umhh.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditu re s

I'll start pissing my pants when they can afford to field even a 1/5 of our forces. If there is one thing the U.S. still does better than anyone its killing people.


If we wanted to, we could easily defeat Russia in a (non-nuclear) war.  (Nuclear war would be a tie in the "A strange game" sense.)

Of course, we would lose ten of thousands of US soldiers, kill hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers, and who knows how many civilians would die...which is why we don't want to.
 
2014-03-03 02:12:56 PM  

mistrmind: So you have nothing intelligent to add.   Okay troll.


Funniest thing I've seen all day.
 
2014-03-03 02:13:15 PM  

QU!RK1019: mistrmind: Have you ever formed an opinion on your own?  Or do you just have it spoon fed?

Go whack off somewhere else.


Awww.  What's a matter?   Can't talk intelligently about the subject at hand?
 
2014-03-03 02:13:30 PM  

QU!RK1019: I was just playing the same "Jump To Conclusions!" game you were, man.


My point is that it's easy to call for military intervention when its somebody else that will do the fighting. Would these armchair saber rattlers really be as gung-ho about intervention if they were the ones who would be put in harms way?

A military intervention is not a Hollywood movie. The cost is very real, both in terms of people's lives and economic consequences. A knee-jerk, sound tough reaction is not a valid reason for getting involved in a military conflict.
 
2014-03-03 02:13:51 PM  

Tyee: grumpfuff: Hmm. And how exactly is me parroting what my friends have said any different than him parroting what people he talked to told him?

So you're now saying that my opinion is at least as valuable as yours?  But you never went, you just talked, and devalued my seeing and hearing with my own eyes over your...what?

Never mind.


Please point out where I did this.
 
2014-03-03 02:15:55 PM  

TrollingForColumbine: danknerd: manbart: Why should the United States be obligated to intervene? If anything, the US should formerly exit NATO, what is the point of being a member anyway?

Why should I care if Russia invades Crimea?

Because Ukraine gave up their nukes for protection by the U.S. (and others), if the U.S. doesn't honor the treaty, the U.S. looks weak and not trustworthy. Plus, then all the treaties of Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons go right out the window and every country will then want to protect themselves directly with Nukes instead of the international communities coming in.

interesting thanks for the info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine


If I'm reading that correctly, the only thing the US needs to do considering the current circumstances is "bring any incident of aggression by a nuclear power before the UN Security Council."  So, we send it to the UN Security Council, Russia vetos any action, and that's the end of that.
 
2014-03-03 02:15:56 PM  

mistrmind: grumpfuff: mistrmind: grumpfuff: Tyee: grumpfuff: Yes, tell us about your extensive travels

Europe last year, S. America this year.  You basing your opinion on what the party tells you or are you just oblivious?

I'm basing my opinion on the friends I have in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Nice try though.

So what you are saying you have no opinion.  You're just a parrot for your "friends".

Hmm. And how exactly is me parroting what my friends have said any different than him parroting what people he talked to told him?

Have you ever formed an opinion on your own?  Or do you just have it spoon fed?



So forming an opinion based on perceptions others have told me(not all of whom agree, btw), is not forming an opinion. Got it.
 
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