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(International Business Times)   British politicians call for 'Nordic model' of prostitution. Hard to see how anyone could get upset by having Nordic models as prostitutes   (ibtimes.co.uk) divider line 19
    More: Cool, Hard to See, Nordic, Wales, Karl Shuker, Nordic model, England, gender inequality, prostitution  
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5689 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Mar 2014 at 9:15 AM (20 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-03 10:13:43 AM
3 votes:

gerrymander: Skarekrough: Why is it that the Free Market seems to work everywhere except for places where it might make right-wingers feel "icky?"

As you'll note, this solution doesn't try a free market solution either. It's just another version of the leftist line, "women always right, men always wrong" .


Right-wing: Criminalise the dirty women doing the nasty things
Left-wing: Criminalise the men forcing the poor women to do the nasty things

Meanwhile none of this actually reduces prostitution or tackles human trafficking. It's like the drug war 2.0, or possibly the drug war 1.0 as people have been trying to stop prostitution since the dawn of time. It's never worked. But by all means keep farking that chicken.
2014-03-03 10:36:12 AM
2 votes:

Skarekrough: Why is it that the Free Market seems to work everywhere except for places where it might make right-wingers feel "icky?"


Because right-wingers are illogical, hypocritical dickheads.
2014-03-03 10:08:17 AM
2 votes:

Skarekrough: Why is it that the Free Market seems to work everywhere except for places where it might make right-wingers feel "icky?"


As you'll note, this solution doesn't try a free market solution either. It's just another version of the leftist line, "women always right, men always wrong" .
2014-03-03 09:32:45 AM
2 votes:
And again, just like every other time this comes up, many of the women involved will say "F*ck off, this is what we do for a living, please don't make my life harder", but they will be ignored by the moral crusaders, the politicians who want to impress the moral crusaders and that (large) portion of the feminist community that want to enforce behavioural standards on other women in the name of equality.

Meanwhile the 'customers' will simply find a discrete way to carry on doing what they're doing, and real progress on human trafficking  will be foiled again because YOU CAN'T FIND THE KIDNAPPERS IF YOU MAKE EVERYONE HIDE.


fark's sake, honestly.
2014-03-03 09:20:27 AM
2 votes:
Seems to me that if anyone is criminalized, it should be people who are forcing women into prostitution against their will. If we shift the criminal prosecution from the supply side to the demand side, are we just letting the people committing the most heinous crimes off the hook?
2014-03-03 05:22:42 PM
1 votes:
while men who create the demand often walk away, without taking responsibility for the damage they do."

By paying someone to have sex instead of buying them dinner and drinks you cause them damage?


When will we get over the puritanical delusion that sex is harmful?
2014-03-03 05:01:00 PM
1 votes:

furterfan: dywed88:
Except the moment you allow brothels, you allow state supervision and regulation.

Why?


If you're thinking of some sort of nevada mustang ranch style set-up them maybe the state would take an interest,
but
In the UK a brothel is classed as any place where two or more prostitutes work

As I understand it, working girls want to be able to work safely - and some feel that having two working girls in an apartment can help that


First, all work places face standards and regulation. A brothel would be no different.

Second, due to the public health concerns a brothel should face stricter standards (like those at a restaurant).

In the endn it would be treated the same as any other business.

Sure, there would still be grey and black markets, but most prostitutes could be brought into the light and would have more protections than today, and it would be even worse if they criminalized prostitution.
2014-03-03 04:35:39 PM
1 votes:

ciberido: Son of Thunder: ciberido: If you'll forgive me for repeating myself, we can argue about whether or not a person truly NEEDS sex, we can talk about Mazlow's hierarchy and so on, but to keep the question very practical: if a significant number of people will go so far as to break laws to get something, if entire black markets have existed and will exist to supply it, arguing about whether or not it is "truly a need" is moot.

It is, for pragmatic purposes, a need until such time as you have some practical means of making it not so.  Which I do not see happening any time soon.

Criminalizing prostitution is like attempting to stop the flow of a mighty river.  You can build a damn, you can try to divert the river, whatever you think best ; but in the end, all that water is going to go SOMEWHERE.

Same argument could be made for legalizing murder.  It has existed throughout history, in every culture, in plenty of nonhuman species, and criminalizing it hasn't stopped it.


You know, it actually occurred to me that someone might make that comparison, and I even started to write an additional sentence or two to explain why my argument DIDN'T logically extend to murder, but then I thought to myself, "No, keep it short, and nobody's going to make that dumb of an extension.  You can leave it unsaid that this doesn't extend to crimes with clear victims."  So I deleted those lines and posted the shorter version.

So, yeah.  Thanks for reminding me that even after all this time, I am still too optimistic with regard to Fark threads.


Then you should stop arguing for decriminalization based on historical ubiquity, and focus only on an argument from lack of harm.
2014-03-03 04:23:07 PM
1 votes:

Son of Thunder: ciberido: If you'll forgive me for repeating myself, we can argue about whether or not a person truly NEEDS sex, we can talk about Mazlow's hierarchy and so on, but to keep the question very practical: if a significant number of people will go so far as to break laws to get something, if entire black markets have existed and will exist to supply it, arguing about whether or not it is "truly a need" is moot.

It is, for pragmatic purposes, a need until such time as you have some practical means of making it not so.  Which I do not see happening any time soon.

Criminalizing prostitution is like attempting to stop the flow of a mighty river.  You can build a damn, you can try to divert the river, whatever you think best ; but in the end, all that water is going to go SOMEWHERE.

Same argument could be made for legalizing murder.  It has existed throughout history, in every culture, in plenty of nonhuman species, and criminalizing it hasn't stopped it.


Murder is illegal because it directly harms somebody.

The (non-moral) justification for restricting prostitution is that it indirectly harms people (such as human trafficking). Except I see no evidence that it protects people any more than laws directly against those things, and makes it harder to protect the victims.

The reason for prostitution laws is an attempt to enforce morals on society, the protecting prostitutes is just a justification because the moral argument won't fly.
2014-03-03 03:28:04 PM
1 votes:

dywed88: If you want to protect prostitutes, legitimize their actions and make it feasible for them to come forward.


They don't want prostitution, it is not only about making prostitutes safe, they want to end it. They think it is a form of violence against women and incompatible with gender equality.  That is the "Nordic Model".
2014-03-03 02:54:07 PM
1 votes:

meanmutton: Seems to me that if anyone is criminalized, it should be people who are forcing women into prostitution against their will. If we shift the criminal prosecution from the supply side to the demand side, are we just letting the people committing the most heinous crimes off the hook?


Cause no one wants to be paid two or six hundred dollars an hour for their time.

You just gotta force them against their will.
2014-03-03 12:35:44 PM
1 votes:

Gothnet: gerrymander: Skarekrough: Why is it that the Free Market seems to work everywhere except for places where it might make right-wingers feel "icky?"

As you'll note, this solution doesn't try a free market solution either. It's just another version of the leftist line, "women always right, men always wrong" .

Right-wing: Criminalise the dirty women doing the nasty things
Left-wing: Criminalise the men forcing the poor women to do the nasty things

Meanwhile none of this actually reduces prostitution or tackles human trafficking. It's like the drug war 2.0, or possibly the drug war 1.0 as people have been trying to stop prostitution since the dawn of time. It's never worked. But by all means keep farking that chicken.


Prostitution (or to be precise, the use of prostitutes) seems to be one of those human things, like drinking alcohol, that some people simply MUST do.  Those people who need* prostitutes will continue to pay for them, no matter how many laws you enact.  And, human nature being what it is, so long as there are people who need prostitutes, there will be people and groups willing to supply that need.  So, yes, I think trying to end prostitution is futile.  And when you have something like prostitution or alcohol that simply will not go away, no matter what, criminalizing it is wasted effort.  Far better to use law enforcement to mitigate it.

So, yes.  Far better to keep it legal, and regulate it for health and safety.  Keep it out in the open and take steps to ensure worker's rights.  What we need, to put it simply, is safety regulations and health inspectors.  Not arrests and jail sentences.

After those steps are put into place, then it would be good to look at why people hire prostitutes (as opposed to getting sexual gratification by some other means) and seeing what, if anything, can be done to address that.

*I realize that many will argue that nobody NEEDS to hire a prostitute but I'm speaking pragmatically.  I mean "need" in the way a meth addict "needs" meth and will commit crimes to procure it.
2014-03-03 12:17:15 PM
1 votes:

gerrymander: Munchkin City Coroner: gerrymander: As you'll note, this solution doesn't try a free market solution either. It's just another version of the leftist line, "women always right, men always wrong" .

wyltoknow: As opposed to the "rightest" line, "women are irresponsible tempting sluts and men are so oppressed in this nation led almost entirely by men".


So why not try a reasonable middle of the road approach of, say, sex between consenting adults is their own farking business and no one else's??

The thing is, that's what the UK already has, more or less. Prostitution is legal. There are all kinds of related things that aren't legal, like pimping and streetwalking, but the basic principle of 'exchange money for sex privately' is already the law of the land.

Going to the Nordic model is a huge step backwards.


So the UK uses the same method as Canada, "prostitution is legal, but you can't do it without breaking all these other laws"?

If you want to protect prostitutes, legitimize their actions and make it feasible for them to come forward.

You think criminalizing their customers will facilitate this? If a prostitute is known to go to the police, do you think they will get a lot of business?

The best case is for it to be practiced legally, indoors, and with a group of people working together and able to provide for security. In other words, a brothel.

This doesn't mean you cannot prosecute people involved in human trafficing, exploitation, etc. It removes one obstacle stopping their victims from coming forward.
2014-03-03 11:34:21 AM
1 votes:

Son of Thunder: Evangelical Christian Gavin Shuker led the report into the Nordic model

Farkers' heads a splode.


Why?

The 'Nordic Model' involves creating more criminals. I don't know if most of you folks bothered to even think past "Nordic Models!" but the Nordic model of prostitution decriminalises only the women that do it, keeps any sort of brothel or security for them illegal and criminalises their customers. It's not like it's some sort of (real, not USA) liberal ideal where everything gets legalised, regulated and (to some extent) sanitised.
2014-03-03 11:02:51 AM
1 votes:

gerrymander: As you'll note, this solution doesn't try a free market solution either. It's just another version of the leftist line, "women always right, men always wrong" .


wyltoknow: As opposed to the "rightest" line, "women are irresponsible tempting sluts and men are so oppressed in this nation led almost entirely by men".



So why not try a reasonable middle of the road approach of, say, sex between consenting adults is their own farking business and no one else's??

/see what I did there?

Oh, and:

TV's Vinnie: Because right[insert any direction here]-wingers are illogical, hypocritical dickheads.

2014-03-03 09:52:36 AM
1 votes:
cdn.niketalk.com
2014-03-03 09:47:39 AM
1 votes:
Why is it that the Free Market seems to work everywhere except for places where it might make right-wingers feel "icky?"
2014-03-03 09:34:43 AM
1 votes:

TV's Vinnie: Oh, please make this happen here in the US. The apocalyptic level of right wing warrgarbl will be a wonder to behold.


I think someone like Bernie Sanders should talk this up in the Senate for precisely this reason.

Even if they can't get the legislation passed, any time you can get the Republicans talking about prostitution, they're bound to say something incredibly stupid.
2014-03-03 09:23:05 AM
1 votes:
FTFA: "the burden of criminality should weigh heaviest on those who purchase sex - who create demand."

You know what creates a "demand" for sex? Men being alive, having women within their field of vision, or imagination, or hearing.
 
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