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(Telegraph)   NATO warns Russia that they still have this treaty thing that they'll have to uphold if things don't change, and no one wants to uphold treaties   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 167
    More: Followup, Russia, Europe, combat readiness, Tahoera'a Huiraatira, Crimean, Black Sea Fleet, territorial integrity, Prime Minister of Ukraine  
•       •       •

4524 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Mar 2014 at 8:25 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-03 08:27:43 AM  
Fine time to start backing words on paper, NATO.
 
2014-03-03 08:28:10 AM  
Send in the drones.
 
2014-03-03 08:28:15 AM  
And who in NATO is going to uphold the treaty? As if a bunch of crooks and lawyers cant weasel out of that shiat.
 
2014-03-03 08:29:49 AM  
Some people think WWI started over an assassination.  It really started because of treaties.

What a stupid name, "treaties".  Would you like a little treaty, Austria?
 
2014-03-03 08:30:55 AM  
Told you guys, it is all good, Obama drew a red line. Don't worry.
 
2014-03-03 08:32:26 AM  

gfid: Some people think WWI started over an assassination.  It really started because of treaties.


Yeah, a chain-reaction of "if this guy attacks you, I'll help" stuff.  Austria was a pimple.  But popping that zit brought the whole world into it.
 
2014-03-03 08:34:39 AM  
And the lawyers are scrambling frantically to find a way out of upholding a defense treaty. Bill Clinton has been brought in as an expert as they seek to define the words "incursion" and "violation of sovereignty". I bet the Ukraine wishes it never destroyed it's nuclear arsenal after assurances from the west...that "hey...we'll defend you".  I guess the U.S. is only capable of standing up to countries that it can be easily defeated and are no match.

I'm sure countries around the world that don't have nuclear weapons because they have these "treaties" with the U.S. are reconsidering their options.
 
2014-03-03 08:35:46 AM  

way south: Fine time to start backing words on paper, NATO.


If it helps, the article never mentions treaties. Not sure where the headline is coming from.
 
2014-03-03 08:38:00 AM  
Does anyone know what Mila Kunis thinks about all this?

Because I still think she's hot enough to decide foreign policy.
 
2014-03-03 08:38:23 AM  

Thunderpipes: Told you guys, it is all good, Obama drew a red line. Don't worry.


0/10
 
2014-03-03 08:38:23 AM  
"You don't just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped-up pretext," he said.

Except if it's Iraq, of course.

/thanks W
 
2014-03-03 08:39:18 AM  
FTFA: "You don't just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped-up pretext," Kerry said.


Uh, Iraq?
 
2014-03-03 08:39:54 AM  
This is totally worse than, and different from when we invaded Iraq!
 
2014-03-03 08:40:15 AM  
ukraineisweak.jpg
 
2014-03-03 08:40:28 AM  

Betacamman: "You don't just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped-up pretext," he said.

Except if it's Iraq, of course.

/thanks W


Fortunately the current Administration has credibility on the issue.  But this kind of this Cheney still says, even to this day.
 
2014-03-03 08:41:13 AM  

syrynxx: Yeah, a chain-reaction of "if this guy attacks you, I'll help" stuff. Austria was a pimple. But popping that zit brought the whole world into it.


and the funny thing about that? Franz Ferdinand was actually very liberal in how he thought the empire should be run (ie, more than just the Austrians and Hungarians should have a say in matters) compared to his father Franz Josef.

Damn Serbians killed the wrong Franz

/okay, less funny "ha ha" than funny "aw crap"
 
2014-03-03 08:41:35 AM  
NATO won't do anything. NATO is a rudderless ship right now.
 
2014-03-03 08:42:08 AM  
Thank goodness nobody mentioned our invasion of Iraq.

Dear god, is synchronized trolling an olympic sport now?
 
2014-03-03 08:43:30 AM  
Does anybody have any extra bacon? Bacon is what's important to me right now.
 
2014-03-03 08:43:48 AM  

gfid: Some people think WWI started over an assassination.  It really started because of treaties.

What a stupid name, "treaties".  Would you like a little treaty, Austria?


To be specific, it started over secret treaties.  All of Europe was linked in one way or another, and only like half of that net was known at any one time.

This is slightly different.  The treaty that got Ukraine to give up its nuclear arsenal was rather public.
 
2014-03-03 08:44:06 AM  

wrs1864: FTFA: "You don't just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped-up pretext," Kerry said.


Uh, Iraq?


Welcome to the real world, Kerry.

Do you have any idea of what sort of place the world is becoming all around you? The days when you could just act out of your noble instincts are over.
 
2014-03-03 08:44:29 AM  
If we just let Russia take over any country they like, they will.
 
2014-03-03 08:45:10 AM  

Aegius: And the lawyers are scrambling frantically to find a way out of upholding a defense treaty. Bill Clinton has been brought in as an expert as they seek to define the words "incursion" and "violation of sovereignty". I bet the Ukraine wishes it never destroyed it's nuclear arsenal after assurances from the west...that "hey...we'll defend you".  I guess the U.S. is only capable of standing up to countries that it can be easily defeated and are no match.

I'm sure countries around the world that don't have nuclear weapons because they have these "treaties" with the U.S. are reconsidering their options.


Meh, what do they want the west to do other than sanctions and diplomacy? The Ukrainians have a military but haven't even tried to defend themselves. I just can't see NATO involving itself over an autonomous region bordering Russia. Frankly I don't know if it would have made a difference if the Ukrainians had their old nukes, other than to make this a lot scarier.
 
2014-03-03 08:45:59 AM  
For clarity, the "treaty", which was more of an agreement has no provisions for the defense of Ukraine.
 
2014-03-03 08:46:23 AM  
Nabb1: NATO won't do anything. NATO is a rudderless ship right now.

Well ships with Azipods and water jet propulsion don't have "rudders" as such. Besides, Russia is the one that seems to be crashing into its neighbors.
 
2014-03-03 08:46:47 AM  
I want some random NATO Member State to come out of left field and enforce this...

/come on Grand Duchy of Luxembourg stop sitting on the sidelines and get into the grand game for a change...
 
2014-03-03 08:47:00 AM  

Nabb1: NATO won't do anything. NATO is a rudderless ship right now.


NATO as a whole might not.  But Poland looks like it's chomping at the bit to force their hand.
 
2014-03-03 08:48:07 AM  
It's going to be a long March.
 
2014-03-03 08:48:34 AM  

NEDM: Nabb1: NATO won't do anything. NATO is a rudderless ship right now.

NATO as a whole might not.  But Poland looks like it's chomping at the bit to force their hand.


Yes, that's right, THEY FORGOT ABOUT POLAND.
 
2014-03-03 08:48:46 AM  

Thunderpipes: Told you guys, it is all good, Obama drew a red line. Don't worry.


Oh, if only Rmoney were here to save us....
 
2014-03-03 08:49:09 AM  
Honoring treaties caused WWI.

Ignoring treaties caused WWII.

/damned if you do, etc. etc.
 
2014-03-03 08:49:26 AM  

NEDM: Nabb1: NATO won't do anything. NATO is a rudderless ship right now.

NATO as a whole might not.  But Poland looks like it's chomping at the bit to force their hand.


You didnt forget Poland!
 
2014-03-03 08:50:24 AM  
I just double-checked to make sure I wasn't completely talking out of my ass- and I was right.  Ukraine is not a part of NATO (quite a list of countries though:   http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm ).

I don't remember a treaty mentioned upthread where the US promised to help Ukraine out in exchange for giving up nukes, but I guess it could have happened.    Back then I was just so giddy with the fact that the Soviet Union was collapsing that I didn't necessarily get all the details.  Borat wasn't even a thing yet.  I'm not sure if I knew what a kazakstan was and I don't think I can even spell that country's name correctly. I know there's an 'h' in there somewhere.

/lots of members of Parliament in NATO though.
//had no idea
///make my funk the P-Funk!

crooksandliars.com

////what I imagine a NATO summit looks like now
////I wonder which one represents Belgium.
 
2014-03-03 08:50:26 AM  

wrs1864: FTFA: "You don't just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped-up pretext," Kerry said.


Uh, Iraq?


To be fair, I'm certain that Kerry called Dubya on that one, multiple times. If anything, the response of the American people to this cold hard fact was rather underwhelming.
 
2014-03-03 08:50:42 AM  

gfid: Some people think WWI started over an assassination.  It really started because of treaties.

What a stupid name, "treaties".  Would you like a little treaty, Austria?


Well, what really kicked it off was Germany making the boneheaded decision to support Austria-Hungery in a war with Serbia because Little Villy didn't think that Austria-Hungry was dumb enough to attack Serbia because of it's alliance with Russia. As it turns out, Austria-Hungry was dumb enough to attack Serbia, which caused the Russians to correctly guess that the Germans were supporting AH, and so the Russians started mobilizing their army. Germany found out about this and had a "oh crap" moment because a war with Russia in the east leaves them exposed to the French on the west. So they decided to invade France through Belgium, which dragged the British into it.
 
2014-03-03 08:51:56 AM  

proteus_b: If we just let Russia take over any country they like, they will.


They will fall like dominoes.
 
2014-03-03 08:52:05 AM  

NEDM: Nabb1: NATO won't do anything. NATO is a rudderless ship right now.

NATO as a whole might not.  But Poland looks like it's chomping at the bit to force their hand.


Well, if folks are genuinely concerned about Russian expansion in eastern Europe then it should be the Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Ukranians making the decision to take a stand and stop them.

If they need help then western Europe can be there, with the US hanging back to supply those countries and prevent the Russians from going nuclear.

All out war between the US and Russia is not something we want to see.... No matter how much we hate what they're doing.
 
2014-03-03 08:53:04 AM  

p4p3rm4t3: It's going to be a long March.


Someone call in Mao.
 
2014-03-03 08:53:05 AM  

www.extremetech.com

Fun fact:  if we piss off the Russians, we no longer have a ride to the ISS.
 
2014-03-03 08:53:13 AM  
Can't we just go take their womens?  That would show them who to fark with.
 
2014-03-03 08:53:25 AM  

Thunderpipes: Told you guys, it is all good, Obama drew a red line. Don't worry.


                                                   www.defence-point.gr
 
2014-03-03 08:53:49 AM  

syrynxx: gfid: Some people think WWI started over an assassination.  It really started because of treaties.

Yeah, a chain-reaction of "if this guy attacks you, I'll help" stuff.  Austria was a pimple.  But popping that zit brought the whole world into it.


I heard that it started when a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry.
 
2014-03-03 08:55:06 AM  
You know, it's a little funny that all of this is happening near the 100th anniversary of WWI.
 
2014-03-03 08:55:16 AM  

Aegius: And the lawyers are scrambling frantically to find a way out of upholding a defense treaty. Bill Clinton has been brought in as an expert as they seek to define the words "incursion" and "violation of sovereignty". I bet the Ukraine wishes it never destroyed it's nuclear arsenal after assurances from the west...that "hey...we'll defend you".  I guess the U.S. is only capable of standing up to countries that it can be easily defeated and are no match.

I'm sure countries around the world that don't have nuclear weapons because they have these "treaties" with the U.S. are reconsidering their options.


Post your home country if you'd like a serious answer to your "point."
 
2014-03-03 08:55:44 AM  
I completely enjoyed those 2 or 3 sentences on NATO...and the remaining 60 on the US leveraging G8 membership and quotes from John Kerry and then a couple of other things loosely associated to countries that happen to be affiliated with NATO.
 
2014-03-03 08:56:49 AM  

legion_of_doo: wrs1864: FTFA: "You don't just, in the 21st century, behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped-up pretext," Kerry said.


Uh, Iraq?

Welcome to the real world, Kerry.

Do you have any idea of what sort of place the world is becoming all around you? The days when you could just act out of your noble instincts are over.

  never existed.

FTFY.
 
2014-03-03 08:56:49 AM  
LOL.. so where does most of Europe's natural gas come from?

yeah.. how long after kicking them out of the G8 or doing anything at all to Russia will it take for Russia to simply turn off the pipes?
 
2014-03-03 08:57:30 AM  

p4p3rm4t3: It's going to be a long March.


Mao you tell us...
 
2014-03-03 08:58:29 AM  

Thunderpipes: Told you guys, it is all good, Obama drew a red line. Don't worry.


Yeah, because if there's one thing Russia fears, it's the US. They thought twice before invading Afghanistan. They momentarily hesitated before arming Cuba. They pondered deeply before taking over Eastern Europe. Bush's massive military might gave Putin pause before rolling tanks into Georgia. And they absolutely gave it some thought before shooting down KAL 007. And now that 0bummer has emasculated the US, they are boldly occupying Crimea. Look at how things have changed.
 
2014-03-03 08:59:02 AM  

NobleHam: p4p3rm4t3: It's going to be a long March.

Someone call in Mao.


Dammit, missed your comment first time through.
 
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