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(NPR)   There's an ancient Vulcan proverb: Only Kerry could go to Kiev   (npr.org) divider line 87
    More: Followup, Kiev, Vulcan, combat readiness, NATO Secretary General, Crimean, Russian President Vladimir Putin, President Viktor Yanukovych, Jennifer Psaki  
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1169 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Mar 2014 at 3:37 AM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-03 12:39:28 AM
Well played, subby.

/live long and prosper
 
2014-03-03 12:40:37 AM
This should be about the extent of our involvement right now. The EU and IMF are setting up a financial aid package, though the IMF has a history of pissing people off. Maybe the OSCE and NATO can arrange for some military aid so Ukraine can hold back the Soviets.
 
2014-03-03 12:53:28 AM
The US looks so impotent right now. If we had a real leader like Dick Cheney in charge, we'd blow up some random Pacific island to liberate the Ukrainians.
 
2014-03-03 02:09:07 AM
Are we going to have to bomb the ever loving sh*t our of Iraq again?
 
2014-03-03 02:25:24 AM
Barney Fife's gonna check out the report of gunshots in town.
 
2014-03-03 02:52:45 AM

themindiswatching: The US looks so impotent right now. If we had a real leader like Dick Cheney in charge, we'd blow up some random Pacific island to liberate the Ukrainians.



Let's torture some more Afghani goat herders, see what they know about his Ukraine nonsense.
 
2014-03-03 03:49:38 AM
But what of Lazarus?
 
2014-03-03 04:00:03 AM

whidbey: But what of Lazarus?


Bought out by Macy's.
 
2014-03-03 04:01:00 AM
It takes some massive balls to say "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pre-text" as a man who voted for the Iraq war.
 
2014-03-03 04:07:36 AM

RanDomino: It takes some massive balls to say "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pre-text" as a man who voted for the Iraq war.


Yeah granted Kerry is a WTF Secretary of State. But I voted for him in 2004 because I believed that he realized the policy wasn't working, and would have been a sane Presidency. Yes I know I might as well be replying to you in Martian. ;-p
 
2014-03-03 04:08:00 AM

RanDomino: It takes some massive balls to say "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pre-text" as a man who voted for the Iraq war.


The difference is that neither he, nor the legislative body he was a part of, knew that the pretext was trumped up at the time.
 
2014-03-03 04:13:52 AM

Rhino_man: RanDomino: It takes some massive balls to say "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pre-text" as a man who voted for the Iraq war.

The difference is that neither he, nor the legislative body he was a part of, knew that the pretext was trumped up at the time.


No no no no. The Dems and the Repubs were in lockstep with attacking Iraq because Corporate Masters. It's a recurring theme.
 
2014-03-03 04:24:26 AM

whidbey: Rhino_man: RanDomino: It takes some massive balls to say "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pre-text" as a man who voted for the Iraq war.

The difference is that neither he, nor the legislative body he was a part of, knew that the pretext was trumped up at the time.

No no no no. The Dems and the Repubs were in lockstep with attacking Iraq because Corporate Masters. It's a recurring theme.


It's so difficult to keep track of it all, these days.
 
2014-03-03 05:24:32 AM

Weatherkiss: whidbey: But what of Lazarus?

Bought out by Macy's.


COLUMBUS HUMOR!
 
2014-03-03 05:59:42 AM
I hope Kerry won't forget Poland.
 
2014-03-03 06:11:30 AM
static.guim.co.uk

PUTIN ONNA RIIIIIIIIITZ!
 
2014-03-03 06:39:09 AM

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: PUTIN ONNA RIIIIIIIIITZ!


"You rang?" is what that photo says to me.
 
2014-03-03 06:49:56 AM

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: [static.guim.co.uk image 620x517]

PUTIN ONNA RIIIIIIIIITZ!


What is with all the tacky shirts?
 
2014-03-03 06:53:53 AM
If Obama had stood up to the Russia in 2008 when they invaded Georgia then Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.
 
2014-03-03 07:08:40 AM
upload.wikimedia.org

To be, or not to be ... in Kiev.
 
2014-03-03 07:19:45 AM
Let's hope its more like Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra, sailing on the ocean, and not Shaka, when the walls fell.

Putin's eyes are red and his fist is closing.

/translation
 
2014-03-03 07:28:41 AM
This is really an EU thing, we don't have any leverage there.
 
2014-03-03 07:50:14 AM

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: [static.guim.co.uk image 620x517]

PUTIN ONNA RIIIIIIIIITZ!


"We are two wild and crazy guys!"
 
2014-03-03 07:53:30 AM
May the force be with you stubby.
 
2014-03-03 07:54:27 AM

Muta: If Obama had stood up to the Russia in 2008 when they invaded Georgia then Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-03-03 07:59:13 AM
You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text.

lol
 
2014-03-03 08:04:46 AM
The United States needs to invade Puerto Rico. Annex the shiat out of that island. That'll show Putin and his red riggers that we're going to match him every step of the way. It will also give a much needed "win" to a lot of us Americans at home.
 
2014-03-03 08:05:32 AM
And the backlash begins.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA 1Q 1E820140303

The Russian central bank raised its key lending rate by 1.5 percentage points after the rouble fell to all-time lows against the dollar. The MICEX index of Moscow stocks tumbled 10 percent to 1,294 points. Russian gas monopoly Gazprom, which supplies Europe through Ukraine, was down more than 13 percent.

That's after one day with no sanctions in place.  Wait for the first way of asset seizures and see what happens to their economy.
 
2014-03-03 08:06:10 AM

Infernalist: And the backlash begins.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA 1Q 1E820140303

The Russian central bank raised its key lending rate by 1.5 percentage points after the rouble fell to all-time lows against the dollar. The MICEX index of Moscow stocks tumbled 10 percent to 1,294 points. Russian gas monopoly Gazprom, which supplies Europe through Ukraine, was down more than 13 percent.

That's after one day with no sanctions in place.  Wait for the first wave of asset seizures and see what happens to their economy.


FTFM
 
2014-03-03 08:07:03 AM

HotWingConspiracy: This is really an EU thing, we don't have any leverage there.


That's actually quite wrong.
 
2014-03-03 08:08:08 AM
Putin must be quaking with fear.

"Not, Kerry, please, not him...! Oh noes..."
 
2014-03-03 08:12:48 AM

Destructor: Putin must be quaking with fear.

"Not, Kerry, please, not him...! Oh noes..."


Their economy took a huge hit this morning and sanctions haven't even been put in place yet, much less the asset seizures that are sure to come.   So, yeah, there's quite a few terrified Russians right now.

and we haven't even mentioned suspending grain shipments to Russia yet.
 
2014-03-03 08:16:19 AM

Infernalist: HotWingConspiracy: This is really an EU thing, we don't have any leverage there.

That's actually quite wrong.


What? We'll kick them out of the G8? They'd rather have Ukraine and their naval base.
 
2014-03-03 08:21:17 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Infernalist: HotWingConspiracy: This is really an EU thing, we don't have any leverage there.

That's actually quite wrong.

What? We'll kick them out of the G8? They'd rather have Ukraine and their naval base.


They've already lost billions in just a few hours and we haven't even put anything in place yet in terms of sanctions and food shipment suspensions.  Russian companies around the world are losing their asses on the world markets.  The rouble is down 10% on the first day of trading for this week.

Yes, they might keep the Crimean territory, but it's going to result in them being reduced to an international economic pariah and what's left of Ukraine will join NATO.  As well as Latvia and Lithuania and god knows who else in Eastern Europe.

So, yeah, as I said before, they may keep their base in the Crimea, but it's going to cost them more than it's worth.
 
2014-03-03 08:28:11 AM
There are a bunch of people in Crimea would would rather be part of Russia than Ukraine.  I get it.  Let's have the UN set up an interest-free loan fund to give them 6 months to move to Russia.  If they haven't moved by then, they can STFU and be loyal Ukranians.
 
2014-03-03 08:30:02 AM

Muta: If Obama had stood up to the Russia in 2008 when they invaded Georgia then Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.


I seem to hear this a lot. Please define "Stand up to."
 
2014-03-03 08:33:44 AM

Old enough to know better: Muta: If Obama had stood up to the Russia in 2008 when they invaded Georgia then Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.

I seem to hear this a lot. Please define "Stand up to."


The joke is that Obama wasn't president until 2009.
(It's poking fun at the people that *are* saying that, since he actually bothered to point out the year)
 
2014-03-03 08:34:22 AM

HotWingConspiracy: What? We'll kick them out of the G8? They'd rather have Ukraine and their naval base.


I'll bet they'd like their oil exports too.
 
2014-03-03 08:36:16 AM

Infernalist: HotWingConspiracy: Infernalist: HotWingConspiracy: This is really an EU thing, we don't have any leverage there.

That's actually quite wrong.

What? We'll kick them out of the G8? They'd rather have Ukraine and their naval base.

They've already lost billions in just a few hours and we haven't even put anything in place yet in terms of sanctions and food shipment suspensions.  Russian companies around the world are losing their asses on the world markets.  The rouble is down 10% on the first day of trading for this week.

Yes, they might keep the Crimean territory, but it's going to result in them being reduced to an international economic pariah and what's left of Ukraine will join NATO.  As well as Latvia and Lithuania and god knows who else in Eastern Europe.

So, yeah, as I said before, they may keep their base in the Crimea, but it's going to cost them more than it's worth.


Reduced?
 
2014-03-03 08:37:57 AM

Infernalist: HotWingConspiracy: Infernalist: HotWingConspiracy: This is really an EU thing, we don't have any leverage there.

That's actually quite wrong.

What? We'll kick them out of the G8? They'd rather have Ukraine and their naval base.

They've already lost billions in just a few hours and we haven't even put anything in place yet in terms of sanctions and food shipment suspensions.  Russian companies around the world are losing their asses on the world markets.  The rouble is down 10% on the first day of trading for this week.

Yes, they might keep the Crimean territory, but it's going to result in them being reduced to an international economic pariah and what's left of Ukraine will join NATO.  As well as Latvia and Lithuania and god knows who else in Eastern Europe.

So, yeah, as I said before, they may keep their base in the Crimea, but it's going to cost them more than it's worth.


But, eh... Could you reduce this to a sound bite?  The wingers need something quick to understand, preferably a way to secretly crave more Putin pics.
 
2014-03-03 08:38:06 AM

Old enough to know better: Muta: If Obama had stood up to the Russia in 2008 when they invaded Georgia then Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.

I seem to hear this a lot. Please define "Stand up to."


it's base on a Palin quote.


"After the Russian army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama's reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence - the kind of response that would only encourage Russia's Putin to invade Ukraine next," she said in Reno, Nevada on October 21, 2008.

Take what you will from it.
 
2014-03-03 08:44:10 AM

Old enough to know better: Muta: If Obama had stood up to the Russia in 2008 when they invaded Georgia then Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.

I seem to hear this a lot. Please define "Stand up to."


It means that as a presidential candidate, Obama should have told President Bush how to run foreign policy.

You know, like Romney did with Benghazi.
 
2014-03-03 08:52:38 AM
D'oh! Well I walked right into that one didn't I? Probably my own fault for being online at four in the morning.

Still, we're no doubt going to hear a lot of criticism of the President from the pundits today. but as always, very few alternatives.
 
2014-03-03 09:02:39 AM

Nurglitch: Infernalist: HotWingConspiracy: Infernalist: HotWingConspiracy: This is really an EU thing, we don't have any leverage there.

That's actually quite wrong.

What? We'll kick them out of the G8? They'd rather have Ukraine and their naval base.

They've already lost billions in just a few hours and we haven't even put anything in place yet in terms of sanctions and food shipment suspensions.  Russian companies around the world are losing their asses on the world markets.  The rouble is down 10% on the first day of trading for this week.

Yes, they might keep the Crimean territory, but it's going to result in them being reduced to an international economic pariah and what's left of Ukraine will join NATO.  As well as Latvia and Lithuania and god knows who else in Eastern Europe.

So, yeah, as I said before, they may keep their base in the Crimea, but it's going to cost them more than it's worth.

Reduced?


As Russia is learning, economic conditions can 'always' get worse.
 
2014-03-03 09:03:51 AM

Infernalist: Their economy took a huge hit this morning and sanctions haven't even been put in place yet, much less the asset seizures that are sure to come. So, yeah, there's quite a few terrified Russians right now.

and we haven't even mentioned suspending grain shipments to Russia yet.


All those things would be great... If for one second I thought they would happen. Not talked about, like President Obama likes to do... Here's my "red-line".  But actually happen.  (Which worked out great for Putin by the way. And he should be as lucky a second time)...

Suspending grain shipments means TV footage of poor hungry Russians. How long will the administration sit still on that?

Answer: They'd never let it happen.
 
2014-03-03 09:05:54 AM

The Larch: Old enough to know better: Muta: If Obama had stood up to the Russia in 2008 when they invaded Georgia then Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine.

I seem to hear this a lot. Please define "Stand up to."

It means that as a presidential candidate, Obama should have told President Bush how to run foreign policy.

You know, like Romney did with Benghazi.


If Romney at Bengazi going to turn into our culture's Darmok at Tenagra?
 
2014-03-03 09:07:52 AM
I thought the Founders sent the Vorta on the dangerous diplomatic missions rather than go themselves.
 
2014-03-03 09:13:08 AM

Destructor: Infernalist: Their economy took a huge hit this morning and sanctions haven't even been put in place yet, much less the asset seizures that are sure to come. So, yeah, there's quite a few terrified Russians right now.

and we haven't even mentioned suspending grain shipments to Russia yet.

All those things would be great... If for one second I thought they would happen. Not talked about, like President Obama likes to do... Here's my "red-line".  But actually happen.  (Which worked out great for Putin by the way. And he should be as lucky a second time)...

Suspending grain shipments means TV footage of poor hungry Russians. How long will the administration sit still on that?

Answer: They'd never let it happen.


I think you underestimate how seriously the EU and eastern Europe is treating this.  Make no mistake about it, the entirety of Europe and eastern Europe is freaking right the hell out and they're not playing games here.

As for the rest, it's 'Monday' and everything in the business world with a Russian connection is losing its ass on the world markets and it has no reason to stop when business resumes on Tuesday.  Everyone...everyone..is dropping their Russian stocks and investments like they're radioactive.  A country can't absorb that sort of damage for long.  Russian banks did so on Monday, but it cost them 'billions' that they won't get back.  Too much more of this sort of economic beating and the rouble will be damned near worthless and their economy completely cratered, gas or no gas.

And yes, I fully expect to see grain imports into Russia to be halted before much longer.  Of the 5 major food producers in the world, 3 of them are pissed at Russia and the other 2 are in South America, a very 'long' boat ride away.
 
2014-03-03 09:24:22 AM

Infernalist: I think you underestimate how seriously the EU and eastern Europe is treating this. Make no mistake about it, the entirety of Europe and eastern Europe is freaking right the hell out and they're not playing games here.


Every point you raise is excellent, and I truly hope that you're right and I'm wrong.

Thing is, Putin is something of a wildcard. He's been driving home the idea of hyper-nationalism, and now we're going to find out how much of a hard line, old school Marxist-Stalinist he is. He might do something like, "see? Capitalism sucks for this very reason" or something.

Is it likely? I don't know. Its marketing, I suppose. I've consistently underestimated how well that works, but have gradually adjusted my understanding of it to a point where I'm worried.

Oh well... Nothing we can do except hope for the best.
 
2014-03-03 09:29:03 AM

Destructor: Infernalist: I think you underestimate how seriously the EU and eastern Europe is treating this. Make no mistake about it, the entirety of Europe and eastern Europe is freaking right the hell out and they're not playing games here.

Every point you raise is excellent, and I truly hope that you're right and I'm wrong.

Thing is, Putin is something of a wildcard. He's been driving home the idea of hyper-nationalism, and now we're going to find out how much of a hard line, old school Marxist-Stalinist he is. He might do something like, "see? Capitalism sucks for this very reason" or something.

Is it likely? I don't know. Its marketing, I suppose. I've consistently underestimated how well that works, but have gradually adjusted my understanding of it to a point where I'm worried.

Oh well... Nothing we can do except hope for the best.


It's true, there's not much that 'we' can do.  That 'we' being 'ordinary citizens', I mean.

I fully expect to see the West continue to pillage the Russian economy, however, until Putin pulls back out of Crimea.  And honestly, at this point, I think the West would prefer if he kept the Crimean region just so the West will have an excuse to isolate and marginalize Russia as a regional and global power.
 
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