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(Chattanooga Times Free Press)   College administration to faculty and staff: Yeah, I'm going to need you to go ahead and sign this paper saying you believe in fairy tales   (timesfreepress.com) divider line 169
    More: Dumbass, Bryan College, William Jennings Bryan, establishments, faculty, Homi Bhabha Centre for Science Education, biblical literalism, image of God, teaching of evolution  
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15184 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Mar 2014 at 3:39 PM (25 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-02 12:20:08 PM
Lie to them.

Only fair... they've been lying to everyone for thousands of years now
 
2014-03-02 12:41:57 PM
College founded in honor of man who argued that fairy tales are truth and belief in them should be enforced by law, and that has had that fairy tale firmly in its mission for many, many years, and that is unabashedly devoted to that fairy tale... has employees re-affirm that they believe the fairy tale, too.

I have a hard time getting outraged over this.  If you don't like it, don't work there.  I spent most of my career in colleges and universities - I would never have even applied to Bryan, Bob Jones, Liberty, Shorter, or any of those nut-job schools.  Our word views completely at odds, of course - but more to the point, none of them is in any way respected in the higher education world.

There's a good reason for that.
 
2014-03-02 12:51:19 PM
It's a private Christian college, so they can pretty much get away with this.
 
2014-03-02 01:04:58 PM
FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.
 
2014-03-02 01:19:08 PM

Bathia_Mapes: It's a private Christian college, so they can pretty much get away with this.


I agree, the school is free to espouse whatever positions they want as a private institution, however, the regional accreditation organizations should start revoking accreditation to schools whose official position is that of young earth creationism, Biblical literalism, or denial of evolution.

Let the school do as it wishes, but make it clear that degrees from such institutions should not be taken seriously.
 
2014-03-02 01:45:12 PM

HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.


QFT
 
2014-03-02 01:49:25 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Bathia_Mapes: It's a private Christian college, so they can pretty much get away with this.

I agree, the school is free to espouse whatever positions they want as a private institution, however, the regional accreditation organizations should start revoking accreditation to schools whose official position is that of young earth creationism, Biblical literalism, or denial of evolution.

Let the school do as it wishes, but make it clear that degrees from such institutions should not be taken seriously.


They aren't. They're pretty much on par with the University of Phoenix.
 
2014-03-02 02:07:11 PM

Lorelle: TuteTibiImperes: Bathia_Mapes: It's a private Christian college, so they can pretty much get away with this.

I agree, the school is free to espouse whatever positions they want as a private institution, however, the regional accreditation organizations should start revoking accreditation to schools whose official position is that of young earth creationism, Biblical literalism, or denial of evolution.

Let the school do as it wishes, but make it clear that degrees from such institutions should not be taken seriously.

They aren't. They're pretty much on par with the University of Phoenix.


Yeah, this.  No one in the academic world takes any of them seriously.

In the population at large, though - I have to say, most places don't give a crap where you got your B.A., as long as you have one.  Unless, of course, you're in academia, or looking for a job at a company (large Wall St. firm, for example) where your connections from going to "the right school" count.
 
2014-03-02 02:56:47 PM
http://www.bryan.edu/fafsa

Well. This is a problem.
 
2014-03-02 03:03:01 PM

what_now: http://www.bryan.edu/fafsa

Well. This is a problem.


How so?  Please.  Do continue.
 
2014-03-02 03:03:55 PM

HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.


i209.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-02 03:05:27 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Lorelle: TuteTibiImperes: Bathia_Mapes: It's a private Christian college, so they can pretty much get away with this.

I agree, the school is free to espouse whatever positions they want as a private institution, however, the regional accreditation organizations should start revoking accreditation to schools whose official position is that of young earth creationism, Biblical literalism, or denial of evolution.

Let the school do as it wishes, but make it clear that degrees from such institutions should not be taken seriously.

They aren't. They're pretty much on par with the University of Phoenix.

Yeah, this.  No one in the academic world takes any of them seriously.

In the population at large, though - I have to say, most places don't give a crap where you got your B.A., as long as you have one.  Unless, of course, you're in academia, or looking for a job at a company (large Wall St. firm, for example) where your connections from going to "the right school" count.


Still, the same group that accredits the University of Virginia, Duke, The University of Florida, etc, says that the degrees from this school pass muster and should be considered valid for purposes of transfer credits, graduate school, and employment.

The accreditation agencies should take a stand here and say 'if you want to teach these views, we will not stand behind the degrees you offer'.
 
2014-03-02 03:05:58 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: what_now: http://www.bryan.edu/fafsa

Well. This is a problem.

How so?  Please.  Do continue.




Their PPA requires that they follow the 1940 AAUP statement on academic freedom.
 
2014-03-02 03:43:14 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.

QFT


Yup. If you want to be a bible-believing literalist, then pi=3 and science no longer works.
 
2014-03-02 03:44:30 PM
Oh, so you went to Bryan College. Well, I hope you don't mind if I recycle your resume. Good luck in your job hunt.
 
2014-03-02 03:44:41 PM

TuteTibiImperes: The accreditation agencies should take a stand here and say 'if you want to teach these views, we will not stand behind the degrees you offer'.


The academic value of a degree all boils down to their specific views on one topic?

I know a finance guy, an engineer, computer programmer, and a graphic designer, all educated at Bible colleges, all doing pretty impressive work and doing quite well for themselves.

I'm not going to fault a biotech firm for turning down young-earth creationists, but it doesn't really matter what a CPA believes, whether they work in biotech or not.
 
2014-03-02 03:46:26 PM
Yeah, the accreditation agencies need to step up to this. You want to run an indoctrination academy for science-denying idiots, fine, but you don't get to transfer credits from your "college" to real universities.
 
2014-03-02 03:47:12 PM
Ah fark. Where disagreement and civil discourse refuses to rise above 'No, you shut up!'
 
2014-03-02 03:48:08 PM
So when is Fox News going to weigh in and call it a freedom of speech issue?
 
2014-03-02 03:48:40 PM
Truth and Eloquence, indeed.
 
2014-03-02 03:52:48 PM
Subby, you bastard, do you want Tinkerbell to DIE?!?
 
2014-03-02 03:53:06 PM

Ehcks: Benevolent Misanthrope: HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.

QFT

Yup. If you want to be a bible-believing literalist, then pi=3 and science no longer works.


Actually, I don't think the bible says pi=3. I can't think of any actual conflict between the actual bible and actual science. It's just that assholes tend to justify themselves with grand statements.
 
2014-03-02 03:53:09 PM

Crewmannumber6: Ah fark. Where disagreement and civil discourse refuses to rise above 'No, you shut up!'


Is somebody being a bit of a poopy-pants?
 
2014-03-02 03:53:20 PM
a "college"


gifrific.com
 
2014-03-02 03:53:44 PM
I support this move. Asshat places like this need to cut the bullshiat and honestly admit what they're about. Then they can deal with the fallout and consequences. They'd better not be science research universities, or they can kiss the big grants buh-bye.
 
2014-03-02 03:56:10 PM

MrEricSir: So when is Fox News going to weigh in and call it a freedom of speech issue?


Freedom of religion, you mean?
 
2014-03-02 03:56:39 PM

Fubini: The academic value of a degree all boils down to their specific views on one topic?


The value of a degree does depend on *how* a person is taught to think.  If the school's approach to difficult questions is "believe what we say without question because we read it in an old book", then the value of their degrees is suspect.  Obviously they either can't or won't teach critical thinking skills.
 
2014-03-02 03:56:48 PM

TheBitterest: Oh, so you went to Bryan College. Well, I hope you don't mind if I recycle your resume. Good luck in your job hunt.


Why do you worry what they think? It's obviously God's will that you not hire them.
 
2014-03-02 03:57:26 PM
After all, the liberal arts school is named in honor of William Jennings Bryan, the man who helped prosecute the 1925 Scopes Trial. The college was founded in 1930, and Bryan's legacy is one of the first things that comes up on campus tours.

I'm in an amateur production of Inherit The Wind right now, so I'm getting a kick out of this thread.
 
2014-03-02 03:58:10 PM

HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.


Forget science.  The Bible doesn't just contradict established science and history, it contradicts ITSELF.  You can't even be a bible-believing literalist without being at odds with basic logic or understanding of written language.
 
2014-03-02 03:59:15 PM

dangelder: Ehcks: Benevolent Misanthrope: HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.

QFT

Yup. If you want to be a bible-believing literalist, then pi=3 and science no longer works.

Actually, I don't think the bible says pi=3. I can't think of any actual conflict between the actual bible and actual science. It's just that assholes tend to justify themselves with grand statements.


So, Noah gathered two of every type of animal and ground bird and put them in a wooden, hand-built boat, 350 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet tall, and kept them there for 40 days and nights? That is physically impossible, even if you stipulate that the animals just magically showed up to come aboard. There isn't enough volume in that space for a fraction of the species of "every creeping thing of the earth after his kind."
 
2014-03-02 04:01:34 PM
You're going to a bible college to major in science?

i247.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-02 04:02:40 PM

mbillips: So, Noah gathered two of every type of animal and ground bird and put them in a wooden, hand-built boat, 350 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet tall, and kept them there for 40 days and nights? That is physically impossible, even if you stipulate that the animals just magically showed up to come aboard. There isn't enough volume in that space for a fraction of the species of "every creeping thing of the earth after his kind."



They made room by not bringing along the unicorns.
 
2014-03-02 04:02:52 PM

dangelder: Ehcks: Benevolent Misanthrope: HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.

QFT

Yup. If you want to be a bible-believing literalist, then pi=3 and science no longer works.

Actually, I don't think the bible says pi=3. I can't think of any actual conflict between the actual bible and actual science. It's just that assholes tend to justify themselves with grand statements.


Actual Bible: The earth was created in 6 days from nothing, by an all-powerful being.  Man was created - as a thinking, upright, homo sapiens - on the 6th.

Actual Science:  Uhmmm... no.

Care to continue?
 
2014-03-02 04:03:19 PM
They called themselves progressive evolutionists and theistic evolutionists and old-Earth creationists; they found ways to reconcile faith and science.

Now the administration is making a statement against these aberrations.


So what? All parties involved are incorrect anyhow.
 
2014-03-02 04:08:02 PM

jshine: Fubini: The academic value of a degree all boils down to their specific views on one topic?

The value of a degree does depend on *how* a person is taught to think.  If the school's approach to difficult questions is "believe what we say without question because we read it in an old book", then the value of their degrees is suspect.  Obviously they either can't or won't teach critical thinking skills.


That's a mighty tall claim that's been bantered around by humanities majors for decades to justify why they go spend money getting a degree in comparative literature. Engineering and accounting firms don't hire college graduates because they've been taught *how* to think about the world, they hire them because they're certified engineers and accountants capable of doing the job at hand.

Like I said above, I have a good friend who went to a Bible college (in the Bible belt, no less). He was required to attend a short church service every day of the week, with a regular service on Sunday. He's a professional engineer, and was recently put in a position where he had to decide between being head engineer in one lab, with less opportunity for advancement, or being a junior engineer in another lab, with more potential later down the line. He complains about how often his company has to fly him around the country.

*How* you think about a problem means very little in a context where you go out and solve real problems. Either you solve the problem and the system works, or you don't, and it doesn't. Reality is a harsh mistress. If these colleges routinely pumped out graduates who weren't intellectually capable of performing their jobs, the market mechanism would make damn sure that college didn't do so well.
 
2014-03-02 04:08:21 PM

mbillips: So, Noah gathered two of every type of animal and ground bird and put them in a wooden, hand-built boat, 350 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet tall, and kept them there for 40 days and nights? That is physically impossible, even if you stipulate that the animals just magically showed up to come aboard. There isn't enough volume in that space for a fraction of the species of "every creeping thing of the earth after his kind."


I like to think that Noah was one of hell of a microbiologist. Able to save two of every kind of creature in just two taxonomy kingdoms (prokaryote and eukaryote) is quite the accomplishment.
 
2014-03-02 04:08:38 PM

dangelder: Ehcks: Benevolent Misanthrope: HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.

QFT

Yup. If you want to be a bible-believing literalist, then pi=3 and science no longer works.

Actually, I don't think the bible says pi=3. I can't think of any actual conflict between the actual bible and actual science. It's just that assholes tend to justify themselves with grand statements.


There is plenty of conflict for those who choose to interpret the Bible literally - the earth (and actually the universe) being created in six literal 24 hour days, the great flood that wiped out all life on earth except for two of each species, man springing into existence fully formed and creating woman from one of his own ribs, etc.

Heck, it's even internally inconsistent from the beginning as was mentioned above - after Cain murders Abel, he's banished from Eden and goes to live with other people, marrying a woman, and having kids of his own.  Where did those other people come from if humanity consisted of Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel at that point?
 
2014-03-02 04:09:55 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: mbillips: So, Noah gathered two of every type of animal and ground bird and put them in a wooden, hand-built boat, 350 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet tall, and kept them there for 40 days and nights? That is physically impossible, even if you stipulate that the animals just magically showed up to come aboard. There isn't enough volume in that space for a fraction of the species of "every creeping thing of the earth after his kind."

I like to think that Noah was one of hell of a microbiologist. Able to save two of every kind of creature in just two taxonomy kingdoms (prokaryote and eukaryote) is quite the accomplishment.



Not to mention all the inbreeding, ever afterward.
 
2014-03-02 04:10:24 PM

Fubini: TuteTibiImperes: The accreditation agencies should take a stand here and say 'if you want to teach these views, we will not stand behind the degrees you offer'.

The academic value of a degree all boils down to their specific views on one topic?

I know a finance guy, an engineer, computer programmer, and a graphic designer, all educated at Bible colleges, all doing pretty impressive work and doing quite well for themselves.

I'm not going to fault a biotech firm for turning down young-earth creationists, but it doesn't really matter what a CPA believes, whether they work in biotech or not.


I don't think I'd trust a programmer from one of these places, too much logic involved.  Hell, that's the whole job is to be able to think logically.
 
2014-03-02 04:10:36 PM
Their Statement of Faith: "We believe that all humanity is descended from Adam and Eve. They are historical persons created by God in a special formative act, and not from previously existing life forms."

Not a whole lot of wiggle room with that one. It's pretty much, God said "POOF!" and there it was.
 
2014-03-02 04:10:37 PM
"If only you believe like I believe, baby, like I believe we can flyyyuyyyy"
 
2014-03-02 04:11:08 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: dangelder: Ehcks: Benevolent Misanthrope: HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.

QFT

Yup. If you want to be a bible-believing literalist, then pi=3 and science no longer works.

Actually, I don't think the bible says pi=3. I can't think of any actual conflict between the actual bible and actual science. It's just that assholes tend to justify themselves with grand statements.

Actual Bible: The earth was created in 6 days from nothing, by an all-powerful being.  Man was created - as a thinking, upright, homo sapiens - on the 6th.

Actual Science:  Uhmmm... no.

Care to continue?


In Genesis I, animals, etc. were created on Day 5. Man was created, male and female, on Day 6.  In Genesis II, Man was created male only, and put in the garden of Eden, and THEN God created animals. When none of them seemed a good match for Adam, God created woman. So, pick your fable; the Bible never explains the discrepancy in the two creation myths.
 
2014-03-02 04:11:49 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: MrEricSir: So when is Fox News going to weigh in and call it a freedom of speech issue?

Freedom of religion, you mean?


Why not both?
 
2014-03-02 04:14:36 PM

TuteTibiImperes: dangelder: Ehcks: Benevolent Misanthrope: HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.

QFT

Yup. If you want to be a bible-believing literalist, then pi=3 and science no longer works.

Actually, I don't think the bible says pi=3. I can't think of any actual conflict between the actual bible and actual science. It's just that assholes tend to justify themselves with grand statements.

There is plenty of conflict for those who choose to interpret the Bible literally - the earth (and actually the universe) being created in six literal 24 hour days, the great flood that wiped out all life on earth except for two of each species, man springing into existence fully formed and creating woman from one of his own ribs, etc.

Heck, it's even internally inconsistent from the beginning as was mentioned above - after Cain murders Abel, he's banished from Eden and goes to live with other people, marrying a woman, and having kids of his own.  Where did those other people come from if humanity consisted of Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel at that point?


Those other peoples was the black folks.
 
2014-03-02 04:14:50 PM

dangelder: Actually, I don't think the bible says pi=3.


The Pi=3 thing comes from passages where people specify the diameter and circumference of circular objects.

If you're an absolute literalist, meaning that you believe that every passage of the bible is unerringly true, then the measurements of those ancient things must be absolutely accurate. If those measurements are accurate, then Pi=3 because the writer proscribes the diameter and circumference of a circle.

Or, you can say that ancient peoples probably didn't have or care for very accurate measurements, and the whole problem goes away.
 
2014-03-02 04:15:10 PM
Genesis is a pretty cool story. But good thing rational people do not make decisions based on story. I'm a huge fan of Milton and Melville. I'd be dead by now.
 
2014-03-02 04:15:15 PM
If you're looking for a job in academia, you run across plenty of ads that request, in addition to the usual CV, statement of teaching philosophy, sample syllabus, et c., a statement of faith, often specific to that sect. As a job-seeker, it's a clue that if you can't get behind that denomination, you're better off applying elsewhere since even if you're hired you probably won't fit in the college culture.
 
2014-03-02 04:15:56 PM

lindalouwho: "If only you believe like I believe, baby, like I believe we can flyyyuyyyy"


/intentional
 
2014-03-02 04:16:48 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: dangelder: Ehcks: Benevolent Misanthrope: HawgWild: FTFA: "The position they're staking out with this new statement is not shared among all evangelicals, all Christians," said Josh Rosenau, programs and policy director at the National Center for Science Education, which advocates teaching of evolution and climate science. "The evangelical position doesn't have to be an outright rejection of human evolution. There are ways to be a Bible-believing literalist without being at odds with science."

No. No there are not.

QFT

Yup. If you want to be a bible-believing literalist, then pi=3 and science no longer works.

Actually, I don't think the bible says pi=3. I can't think of any actual conflict between the actual bible and actual science. It's just that assholes tend to justify themselves with grand statements.

Actual Bible: The earth was created in 6 days from nothing, by an all-powerful being.  Man was created - as a thinking, upright, homo sapiens - on the 6th.

Actual Science:  Uhmmm... no.

Care to continue?


No, it's easier than that.
Break out a sheet of paper.
Write down the timeline of creation given in Chapter 1.
Write down the timeline of creation given in Chapter 2.
Compare the timelines.
 
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