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(NBC News)   Russian forces have disappeared from Simferopol, huge pro-Russian crowds are no longer present, and the Crimean peninsula returns to normal. Can we stop waxing the tadpole about WWIII now?   (nbcnews.com) divider line 235
    More: Followup, Russian forces, peninsula  
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11165 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Mar 2014 at 6:39 AM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-02 11:48:50 AM  
Everything about Vladimir Putin smacks of "overcompensation."  He is a deeply insecure man, leading a deeply insecure country, and he is willing to do whatever it takes to get the international community to take him seriously.

All Obama needs to do in this situation is to avoid giving him the international validation that he craves.  Russia is simply no longer an international superpower, and their military has not been maintained to modern standards since the fall of the Soviet Union.  Russia wants this to be the "clash of civilizations" that never materialized out of the cold war.  They want to be treated as equals, when they simply aren't.
 
2014-03-02 11:51:20 AM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: There's nothing like being afraid of Russia invading you again to motivate you join an alliance that hasn't invaded you, given the Russian Empire's history.


I'm Hungarian, so you won't get any argument here.
 
2014-03-02 11:56:09 AM  

JonnyG: Animatronik: JonnyG: Behind all the smokescreens, this is quite simple and the US is far from clean. The US has installed a leader sympathetic to them. If that leader takes hold, it means very bad things for Russia. Russia does not want that leader because, well, it would be very bad for them (financially). This is a battle over money and nothing more. The US is just as guilty in this situation - they just choose their words more carefully so that the peoples can absorb them with less guilt.

Where do you live?


I was shocked to discover that there are a number of Russia expats who really believed that Stalin was a nice guy, a strong leader who took charge. That all the propaganda wasn't true, that he didnt murder 10s of millions in the 30s.

It's quite plausible that many Russiansfeel the same way about Putin, who is mild in comparison

The stuff you are saying here is pure garbage and Russian propaganda. It doesn't fool anybody. I'll see what else you post before flagging you.


Ok I'm impressed, that's much better.
 
2014-03-02 11:56:57 AM  

SirEattonHogg: Waxing the tadpole?  Is that a real expression?


s3.amazonaws.com

How to lift one eyebrow in 7 easy steps
 
2014-03-02 11:58:37 AM  

JonnyG: Behind all the smokescreens, this is quite simple and the US is far from clean. The US has installed a leader sympathetic to them. If that leader takes hold, it means very bad things for Russia. Russia does not want that leader because, well, it would be very bad for them (financially). This is a battle over money and nothing more. The US is just as guilty in this situation - they just choose their words more carefully so that the peoples can absorb them with less guilt.


these words - they do not mean what you think they do.
 
2014-03-02 12:00:28 PM  

Animatronik: Animatronik: Oldiron_79: So serious question, if Canada or Mexico was having the sort of instability verging on a civil war that the Ukraine is having right now, who in here thinks the US would not get involved?

So serious answer: HELL NO. The U.S.would not invade either unless a foreign power intervened.

Serious question: Did we ever make a serious attempt to invade Cuba, which is 200 miles from the U.S.??

And by intervene, I mean send an army in, not attempt to influence. Or if there was an invasion of U.S. territory.


Spanish-American War?

Bay of Pigs wasn't "the army", but was a CIA-trained army.
 
2014-03-02 12:03:00 PM  

Some Coke Drinking Guy: If Russia get's to invade Ukraine, then America should be allowed to Annex Canada.  At least the good parts.  I mean what's good for the goose and all...


ts2.mm.bing.net
 
2014-03-02 12:06:51 PM  

elvisaintdead: JonnyG: Behind all the smokescreens, this is quite simple and the US is far from clean. The US has installed a leader sympathetic to them. If that leader takes hold, it means very bad things for Russia. Russia does not want that leader because, well, it would be very bad for them (financially). This is a battle over money and nothing more. The US is just as guilty in this situation - they just choose their words more carefully so that the peoples can absorb them with less guilt.

these words - they do not mean what you think they do.


http://news.rapgenius.com/Victoria-nuland-on-a-planned-coup-detat-in -u kraine-annotated

Stupid or ignorant ?  The above link will solve the latter.  Entire Nuland transcript.  Pretty farking clear they are meddling heavily.
 
2014-03-02 12:07:10 PM  

SirEattonHogg: Waxing the tadpole?  Is that a real expression?


New one to me.
 
2014-03-02 12:22:50 PM  

czetie: K3rmy: bah, it was nothing more than an attempted land grab.  Putin had no muscle behind it and he knew it.  He withdrew the troops as he knew that they could not withstand  a wayward wind blowing to hit them and Hopey McChange was not a person he could show his face in the world after (appearing to be) punked down.  This is not to say that Russia has no forces worth reckoning with - they simply did not send any to play in Crimea.

Putin is not done there yet.  He is plotting. . .scheming.  The US may currently have a helmet-headed special needs child as president but those types tend to hit hard.  (The exception was Chimpy McFlightsuit who was too busy spending time at his ranch at the beginning of his first term to do anything of consequence)

Well, that was equally idiotic no matter what direction you view it from. Spherically stupid, so to speak.


Yeah, but if you view it from outside our dimensions, it's a flat circle.
 
2014-03-02 12:23:10 PM  

udhq: Everything about Vladimir Putin smacks of "overcompensation."  He is a deeply insecure man, leading a deeply insecure country, and he is willing to do whatever it takes to get the international community to take him seriously.

All Obama needs to do in this situation is to avoid giving him the international validation that he craves.  Russia is simply no longer an international superpower, and their military has not been maintained to modern standards since the fall of the Soviet Union.  Russia wants this to be the "clash of civilizations" that never materialized out of the cold war.  They want to be treated as equals, when they simply aren't.


It's because he's 5'5" and has no chest hair
 
2014-03-02 12:24:52 PM  

organizmx: Question for those who know more than me: why not just let Crimea "rejoin" Russia? Wouldn't that be better than all out war between Ukraine and Russia?


i53.photobucket.com
 
2014-03-02 12:47:52 PM  

czetie: Rhino_man: czetie: hobbes0022: This doesn't even feel real, major modern countries like Russia still invade their neighbors?  They didn't even call them an axis of evil.

If Putin insists that sending troops into another country is "legitimately protecting Russia's interests" just because some of them are ethnically Russian, then I have a horrible feeling that we're all about to learn the Russian words for "Lebensraum" and "Volksdeutsche".

Also noteworthy that Putin doesn't feel at all the same way about ethnic non-Russians who want to break away from Russia...

Farking THIS.  The whole thing has just been echoes of "DANZIG IST DEUTSCHE" to me.

I was thinking more of the Sudetenland, but yeah, Danzig works too.


Right after hosting an Olympic games too...
 
2014-03-02 12:56:33 PM  

lifeboat: [oi62.tinypic.com image 618x347]


I very nearly just scrolled right by this thinking it was the usual "This business..." deal, but bravo. Best laugh I've had this week.
 
2014-03-02 01:07:00 PM  
Ukraine navy chief switches allegiance to Crimea pro-Russia authorities

I was just thinking that perhaps there's another possibility we might consider. The Ukraine navy chief might be trying to defect.

avalanche: lifeboat: [oi62.tinypic.com image 618x347]

I very nearly just scrolled right by this thinking it was the usual "This business..." deal, but bravo. Best laugh I've had this week.


Awesome.  :)
 
2014-03-02 01:24:51 PM  
jakomo002:

I mean, how is it that  ALL these countries suddenly get membership into NATO between 1999 and 2004?

Some people blame the Jews. It can go like this: first they united the various German statelets under the Kaiser so they could start WW1, then all that economic hell in the '20s & '30s to make way for Hitler, then they started WW2 to get themselves genocided so they could blackmail the West into helping them start Israel, then... And if course their weapons and plots also include nuclear physics, evolution, plate tectonics, Marxism, Freudianism, diamonds, gold, the Illuminati, the Mormons, the polio vaccine, HIV, water fluoridation, shape-shifting reptilians and Obama.

However, it was really a carrot-and-stick strategy by the West and the World Bank/IMF: the carrot was lots of money and active help in stabilizing their new "democracies" under the leadership of local elite factions, with the stick being further destabilization by Western secret agencies and international financial institutions leading to disintegration of the countries or at least destruction of those local elites that wanted economic and political control of them. It was surely no coincidence, nor was it all the fault of Russia (or the USSR), and much of it was very publicly reported in the world press at the time. Often they even named names of the various so-called leaders involved in "bringing Democracy and Free Enterprise" to their countries; a few of them even got Nobel Peace Prizes.

That is they did to the various Ex-Warsaw Pact states pretty much what the Stalinists did to them after WW2, except they used lawyers and money more than guns. Stalin had the victorious Red Army, the NKVD and compliant "Communist" parties; the West had the World Bank, NATO and the secret agencies (CIA, MI6, etc. etc. etc.).

As an example of what would happen to these countries if they didn't knuckle under, look at the former Yugoslavia. "Do you really want that to happen to Poland?"
 
2014-03-02 01:32:06 PM  

The One True TheDavid: jakomo002:

I mean, how is it that  ALL these countries suddenly get membership into NATO between 1999 and 2004?

Some people blame the Jews. It can go like this: first they united the various German statelets under the Kaiser so they could start WW1, then all that economic hell in the '20s & '30s to make way for Hitler, then they started WW2 to get themselves genocided so they could blackmail the West into helping them start Israel, then... And if course their weapons and plots also include nuclear physics, evolution, plate tectonics, Marxism, Freudianism, diamonds, gold, the Illuminati, the Mormons, the polio vaccine, HIV, water fluoridation, shape-shifting reptilians and Obama.

However, it was really a carrot-and-stick strategy by the West and the World Bank/IMF: the carrot was lots of money and active help in stabilizing their new "democracies" under the leadership of local elite factions, with the stick being further destabilization by Western secret agencies and international financial institutions leading to disintegration of the countries or at least destruction of those local elites that wanted economic and political control of them. It was surely no coincidence, nor was it all the fault of Russia (or the USSR), and much of it was very publicly reported in the world press at the time. Often they even named names of the various so-called leaders involved in "bringing Democracy and Free Enterprise" to their countries; a few of them even got Nobel Peace Prizes.

That is they did to the various Ex-Warsaw Pact states pretty much what the Stalinists did to them after WW2, except they used lawyers and money more than guns. Stalin had the victorious Red Army, the NKVD and compliant "Communist" parties; the West had the World Bank, NATO and the secret agencies (CIA, MI6, etc. etc. etc.).

As an example of what would happen to these countries if they didn't knuckle under, look at the former Yugoslavia. "Do you really want that to happen to Poland?"


How much do you have invested in tin foil stocks?
 
2014-03-02 01:47:27 PM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: Oldiron_79: So serious question, if Canada or Mexico was having the sort of instability verging on a civil war that the Ukraine is having right now, who in here thinks the US would not get involved?

So serious answer: what russia has done is basically invaded and taken over cozumel while there was some unrest in Mexico city.  Do you think that an appropriate response to any sort of political disturbance in mexico city would be to suddenly invade cancun or cozumel and attach it to the USA?

Please, stop trying to justify the unjustifiable and don't even think of that ludicrous "protecting their base" excuse (protecting from what?)   Russia's actions are reprehensible here.


Im not saying they are right, just saying I understand.
 
2014-03-02 02:15:58 PM  

K3rmy: bah, it was nothing more than an attempted land grab.  Putin had no muscle behind it and he knew it.  He withdrew the troops as he knew that they could not withstand  a wayward wind blowing to hit them and Hopey McChange was not a person he could show his face in the world after (appearing to be) punked down.  This is not to say that Russia has no forces worth reckoning with - they simply did not send any to play in Crimea.

Putin is not done there yet.  He is plotting. . .scheming.  The US may currently have a helmet-headed special needs child as president but those types tend to hit hard.  (The exception was Chimpy McFlightsuit who was too busy spending time at his ranch at the beginning of his first term to do anything of consequence)


Could you try speaking like an adult?
 
2014-03-02 02:17:14 PM  

Rhino_man: youmightberight: Rhino_man: youmightberight: You're blind if you couldn't see Putins desire for power - the man has been pm or president for almost 15 years - he "won" 99% of the vote in Chechnya - you know that place that has been fighting Russia for almost a decade now?

For an informed person your lack of information on this topic makes me sad - go study and come back to the conversation later.

You're a damned fool if you think I'm not aware of Putin's desire for power.  brimed03 said it very well:

brimed03: This. As I said in the previous Crimea thread, perhaps Obama saw the threat just as clearly as Mittens, but was smart enough to prevent limiting our diplomatic options by not making an open enemy of Putin.
You know, not hamstringing a decade of national policy for a couple of temporary poll points. Thinking presidentially, one might say.

When Russia's behaving in public, YOU DON'T WAVE YOUR DICK AT THEM.  If you wave your dick at Russia, Russia acts a fool.  So once again, good job Romney.

So we agree that Putin is after as much power and land as possible starting small with Georgia and now taking bits of Ukraine - but you are failing to recognize that Putin would use anything as an excuse to take more land/power.

We're litterally watching a defacto dictator pull a hitler and even WITH histories example you're siding with the dictator.

You're a farking idiot.


Funny I'm thinking the same thing about you.
 
2014-03-02 02:29:52 PM  
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/world/europe/ukraine-turns-to-its-o l igarchs-for-political-help.html

Funny thing, how the understanding that Russia is near and the West isn't doing anything clears the brain. Ukrainian interim government suddenly turned 180 degrees in its attitude towards Eastern provinces, put local oligarchs as governors, Turchynov (that's the acting president of the new Kiev government) have vetoed Russian: "In another conciliatory gesture, Mr. Turchynov on Sunday vetoed a divisive law passed last week that would have eliminated Russian as an official second language: about half of Ukraine's population speaks Russian."

Why the hell didn't the _start_ with conciliation?! Why do you need for Russian tanks on their borders before coming back into your mind?! Now it's too late for Crimea; and we'll see if other parts of the Ukraine will accept the "gesture" or if they'll decide "to hell with Kiev".
 
2014-03-02 02:42:25 PM  
Err, "vetoed ban on Russian language".

Apparently I'm too tired to write in English. I hope you get the meaning.
 
2014-03-02 02:45:17 PM  
It's occurred to me recently how happy I am that we don't have a bunch of trigger-happy people in the White House right now. More than anything I don't want to get into a dick-measuring contest with Russia.

I'm getting the impression that Putin is getting a little imperialistic right now, and that's going to come back to haunt Russia in the coming decades. The short term gain may not be worth the long term losses to Russia.

People always find it hard to see from inside the situation what the possible negative outcomes may be.

Also, we  still depend on these guys for access to space.
 
2014-03-02 02:50:17 PM  

AngryDragon: Mr. Shabooboo: I would call this a Volga display of power by Putin..


 It would be no different than the U.S. taking advantage of a political crisis to take over Costa Rica, simply because there are a lot of Anglo people living there.

It would be more like the US taking over Ontario from Canada


0-media-cdn.foolz.us

War.  War never changes.
 
2014-03-02 03:05:50 PM  
www.washingtonpost.com

Not disappeared, just very clever disguises
 
2014-03-02 03:06:54 PM  
Well, if you only care about surface appearances, sure, everything is back to normal. After all, who cares who's taken over the infrastructure, as long as they aren't openly carrying scary assault rifles?

/then the left wonders why the world keeps going crazy on them
//it's like actions matter more than words to everyone except the liberals
 
2014-03-02 04:01:53 PM  
If it is true that about 50% of Ukrainians badly wanted to be part of EU, the latest shenanigans is moving away from the increasingly lengthy laundry list of things that the EU's negotiators laid out for Ukraine to do (starting in 1994) if it wanted to join.  The list is rather comprehensive and includes things like issuing passports with biometrics that meet EU standards (Poland permitted a practice visa/passport program that ultimately attracted some 1 million Ukrainians to work in Poland...France News-1 and other sources report that Poland has stopped that program).

The Ukraine also needed to have banking pratices that were up to snuff from EU standards (to keep it from being a nation that was primarily laundering money for criminal interests, for one thing).  The last four Presidents of the Ukraine (whether nationalists or not) have bemoaned the unwillingness of the Ukrainian people to do things like establish bank accounts, have a non-cash based economy, levy and pay taxes, etc.  The EU has taxes.  It isn't going to let a new state enter into even cub scout status without it jumping through some accounting hoops...

Ukraine has set itself way back on its path to the EU (the EU prefers nations whose transfer of power from one person to another doesn't involve manifestations in the streets, shooting and stuff like that).  Meanwhile, it has debts to pay and Russia was paying those debts...lots of Ukrainians know that.
 
2014-03-02 04:06:39 PM  

Tatterdemalian: Well, if you only care about surface appearances, sure, everything is back to normal. After all, who cares who's taken over the infrastructure, as long as they aren't openly carrying scary assault rifles?

/then the left wonders why the world keeps going crazy on them
//it's like actions matter more than words to everyone except the liberals


What are you on about? Kerry was on all the networks this morning calling it an invasion. Who are these liberals of which you speak?

/I suspect subby is just an idiot, or a pro-Putin Russian
//but I repeat myself
 
2014-03-02 04:25:50 PM  
And now the White House just released a statement that the Russian military has 'complete operational control' of the Crimean area. Russians also just cut power to the main Ukrainian naval base.
 
2014-03-02 04:28:33 PM  

T-Servo: And now the White House just released a statement that the Russian military has 'complete operational control' of the Crimean area. Russians also just cut power to the main Ukrainian naval base.


And gave an ultimatum to the Ukrainians (maybe just Crimean) to disarm
 
2014-03-02 04:58:49 PM  

czetie: I was thinking more of the Sudetenland, but yeah, Danzig works too.


Problem, on a map the Crimea looks geo-politically important. And it's beautiful country with a storied history dating back before the Romans.

And... it's really more of an multiethnic attractive nuisance like Palestine and Yugoslavia.
 
2014-03-02 08:14:24 PM  

youmightberight: Rhino_man: youmightberight: Rhino_man: youmightberight: You're blind if you couldn't see Putins desire for power - the man has been pm or president for almost 15 years - he "won" 99% of the vote in Chechnya - you know that place that has been fighting Russia for almost a decade now?

For an informed person your lack of information on this topic makes me sad - go study and come back to the conversation later.

You're a damned fool if you think I'm not aware of Putin's desire for power.  brimed03 said it very well:

brimed03: This. As I said in the previous Crimea thread, perhaps Obama saw the threat just as clearly as Mittens, but was smart enough to prevent limiting our diplomatic options by not making an open enemy of Putin.
You know, not hamstringing a decade of national policy for a couple of temporary poll points. Thinking presidentially, one might say.

When Russia's behaving in public, YOU DON'T WAVE YOUR DICK AT THEM.  If you wave your dick at Russia, Russia acts a fool.  So once again, good job Romney.

So we agree that Putin is after as much power and land as possible starting small with Georgia and now taking bits of Ukraine - but you are failing to recognize that Putin would use anything as an excuse to take more land/power.

We're litterally watching a defacto dictator pull a hitler and even WITH histories example you're siding with the dictator.

You're a farking idiot.

Funny I'm thinking the same thing about you.


Show me where I sided with Putin... even once.  Even a little bit.
 
2014-03-02 08:49:50 PM  
If Crimea wants to separate from Ukraine it's matter for Ukraine and Crimea.

Not for anybody else.  We can tip our hats at their quarrels and wander by politely.

Although there's this silly thing that the Crimean peninsula will be part of Ukraine due to simple physics and geography.  Suck it, Crimea.
 
2014-03-03 10:37:27 AM  

danzak: Jeez, what's with all the Russian apologists here? Russia has invaded Ukraine's sovereignty, an action in violation of a few treaties. The fact that you can spin the facts and claim that it is "to protect" Russian speaking population is irrelevent. Crimea is not part of Russia, and the population are not Russian citizens despite the sudden availability of Russian passports. Russian speaking people were not under any direct threat either, there were some flare ups, but certainly nothing to justify the tanks moving in.

Whether Russia recognizes the new gov't in Kyiv is irrelevent too. Yanukovych was removed democratically, even his own party abandoned him. He is no longer the President of Ukraine and in fact, should be on a flight to Switzerland to face charges of mass murder.

And the east-west split in Ukraine is not as simple any more so stop thinking the East would welcome Putin. They may speak Russian in the East but they, for the most part, do not want to be part of Russia. The East was well represented both at Maidan and in regional protests.

Now, what to do? Options are limited. I think Putin is trying to antagonize the Ukrainians into firing the first shot, then he can hit hard. The fact that there wasn't some knee-jerk reaction from Ukraine probably surprised him and now he's left a bit exposed diplomatically. US troops-probably not good. NATO? Maybe send some observers or try to secure air space but not boots on the ground. Best short term option may be to do nothing but keep calm. Economic sanctions against Russia, pulling out of G8 and stopping investments in Russia, a NATO "presence" are doable options, I think.

Best course would be to continue to work with Ukraine's new gov't to stabilize the economic situation. That needs to be the first step, the uncertainty in the country now is everyone's enemy and Putin's best friend.


Quite frankly, I see this whole move as an attention-whoring dick-waving by Putin who thinks himself Peter the Great come again.

He's trying to antagonize us into firing the first shot so it can be WW3, and we cannot let that happen.
 
2014-03-03 12:11:42 PM  

shortymac: Quite frankly, I see this whole move as an attention-whoring dick-waving by Putin who thinks himself Peter the Great come again.

He's trying to antagonize us into firing the first shot so it can be WW3, and we cannot let that happen.


No he's not. WW3 is a loss for him. The Russian military is hardly the beast it used to be. And it's not like a nuclear war does anything for him at all.
 
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