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(NBC News)   Russian forces have disappeared from Simferopol, huge pro-Russian crowds are no longer present, and the Crimean peninsula returns to normal. Can we stop waxing the tadpole about WWIII now?   (nbcnews.com) divider line 235
    More: Followup, Russian forces, peninsula  
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11167 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Mar 2014 at 6:39 AM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-02 07:38:13 AM  

czetie: jakomo002: What people tend to forget is that a lot of Ukrainians want nothing to do with the EU.

Their fear is that once the EU calls in the IMF and World Bank, they'll shove "austerity" down people's throats and they'll be thoroughly farked. Or Latvia-ed.

What other people tend to forget is that the way to resolve a question like that is for the people of the Ukraine to use the democratic process at their disposal, not for a neigboring superpower to farking invade and impose its will.


BS.  The EU and North America are completely entwined in this whole mess.  Again, from the Nuland "Fark the EU" taped conversation, she clearly is meddling heavily.  Favoring the pro-EU Yatsenyuk heavily.

And she's following orders.  A loss for Russia means a win for the US, and neither gives a shiat about any Ukrainians.
 
2014-03-02 07:38:38 AM  
 
2014-03-02 07:45:10 AM  

SuperSeriousMan: Wolf_Blitzer: How does anything that <b>AngryDragon</b> just referred to sound anything like "returns to normal" to you?

Oh, I dunno... maybe the paragraph I posted - the one from TFA that was right after the paragraph he posted but (like you) apparently didn't read.

Here, I'll post it again, and this time in nice bold text so even you can't miss it:  "However, there were no signs of any troops in Simferopol, or any crowds in the squares where masked gunmen were seen on Saturday."

And here's the next paragraph, just to amplify: "That appeared to underline reports that Russia has secured control of Crimea without any signs of military engagement."

/ reading comprehension, how does it work?


It's not normal if Russia has taken over Crimea, which is what the second quote says.  Just in case you don't see why that's what it says, it says "to underline" and not "to undermine."  Basically, they rolled in, took over, and then had no need to occupy in force because no one gave them any lip.
 
2014-03-02 07:45:43 AM  

Animatronik: Ukraine does not have to be part of either the EU or Russia. But if you are faced with the choice of either austerity or defaulting on debt, it's not a matter of what the EU will do for you, it's a matter of how to continue to function without runaway inflation and no money to pay for infrastructure.


Well said, but that's nowhere near to how the media (specifically U.S.) is treating it.  And the EU makes MONEY on Ukraine's IMF-imposed austerity.  Ukraine becomes a cheap market for foreign companies to flood.

And Russia has seen too many of her former satellites go over to the West (or even NATO), despite assurances after the USSR dissolved by the West that they would never.
 
2014-03-02 07:45:44 AM  

Fail in Human Form: Marmilman: Thanks fark mods for green lighting complete bullshiat newsflashes for the second time in a row.

Coming here for news instead of entertainment is a little pointless.  Look at the posts.  If you want to follow the issue I suggest.

Reddit Live Blog

Euromaidan Twitter Account

BBC Live Blog

Hromadske.tv


Thank you for those links. Much appreciated.
 
2014-03-02 07:51:56 AM  

jakomo002: Animatronik: Ukraine does not have to be part of either the EU or Russia. But if you are faced with the choice of either austerity or defaulting on debt, it's not a matter of what the EU will do for you, it's a matter of how to continue to function without runaway inflation and no money to pay for infrastructure.

Well said, but that's nowhere near to how the media (specifically U.S.) is treating it.  And the EU makes MONEY on Ukraine's IMF-imposed austerity.  Ukraine becomes a cheap market for foreign companies to flood.

And Russia has seen too many of her former satellites go over to the West (or even NATO), despite assurances after the USSR dissolved by the West that they would never.


Russia's former satellites are FORMER satellites. It's not clear that Russian speaking Ukrainians want to be part of Russia or simply to maintain close ties. If Russia gets into a military conflict in Ukraine, everyone will assume correctly that it's a land grab.

If Russia actually believed that there was never a chance that some of it's allies would seek a NATO or EU alliance, that's just foolishness .
 
2014-03-02 07:53:53 AM  

jakomo002: BS. The EU and North America are completely entwined in this whole mess.


"Both sides are bad so invade another country?"

Countries have always applied economic and political pressure to each other to promote their own selfish interests -- not least Russia, which uses the carrot/stick of gas prices.

However, only one country involved here has tanks and troops openly operating in another country's sovereign territory; and I'm still fascinated to hear how you intend to justify military force as the appropriate way to resolve a political and economic dispute?

"War is the continuation of Politik by other means" said Clausewitz, and that's not exactly a recommendation.
 
2014-03-02 07:54:54 AM  
 
2014-03-02 07:59:11 AM  

jakomo002: And Russia has seen too many of her former satellites go over to the West (or even NATO), despite assurances after the USSR dissolved by the West that they would never.


Good point. We should let Russia annex Ukraine to make up for all those former satellite states' decisions to act in their own best interests.
 
2014-03-02 08:00:09 AM  

jakomo002: And Russia has seen too many of her former satellites go over to the West (or even NATO), despite assurances after the USSR dissolved by the West that they would never.


Yeah, except I don't think those assurances were the West's to give. Once those former satellites are free countries, they get to choose who they want to associate with -- neither East nor West gets to use them as bargaining chips or unwilling buffer states.

The irony here is that it's precisely Russia's bullying, racist, nationalist, militaristic, censorious descent into near-dictatorship that is pushing the countries of central Europe into the arms of Europe. (And incidentally, several of them have centuries of ties with Europe long before they spent 50 years in the freezer of the Cold War.)
 
2014-03-02 08:00:52 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: At a family function last night my aunt suggested the best way to fix all this would be for us to threaten to nuke everyone involved unless Putin and "the Ukraine president" agreed to a summit at a neutral site -- Wasilla, Alaska -- under the watchful diplomatic wink of America's finest expert on international politics, you betcha.

Yep, it's not even 7:30AM EST and you've already heard the stupidest thing you'll hear all day long.


You sure about that?

We are on Fark, after all. ;-)
 
2014-03-02 08:01:51 AM  

Animatronik: jakomo002: Animatronik: Ukraine does not have to be part of either the EU or Russia. But if you are faced with the choice of either austerity or defaulting on debt, it's not a matter of what the EU will do for you, it's a matter of how to continue to function without runaway inflation and no money to pay for infrastructure.

Well said, but that's nowhere near to how the media (specifically U.S.) is treating it.  And the EU makes MONEY on Ukraine's IMF-imposed austerity.  Ukraine becomes a cheap market for foreign companies to flood.

And Russia has seen too many of her former satellites go over to the West (or even NATO), despite assurances after the USSR dissolved by the West that they would never.

Russia's former satellites are FORMER satellites. It's not clear that Russian speaking Ukrainians want to be part of Russia or simply to maintain close ties. If Russia gets into a military conflict in Ukraine, everyone will assume correctly that it's a land grab.

If Russia actually believed that there was never a chance that some of it's allies would seek a NATO or EU alliance, that's just foolishness .


Except their former satellites were actively and aggressively recruited into NATO by the West.
I mean, how is it that  ALL these countries suddenly get membership into NATO between 1999 and 2004?  The NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization.

Czech Republic  Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
 Hungary Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991.
 Poland Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1990.
 Bulgaria Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991.
 Estonia Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
 Latvia Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
 Lithuania Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
 Romania Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991.
 Slovakia Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991 as part of Czechoslovakia.
 Slovenia Previously part of Yugoslavia 1945-1991 (Non-aligned)
 
2014-03-02 08:07:43 AM  

jakomo002: Except their former satellites were actively and aggressively recruited into NATO by the West.
I mean, how is it that ALL these countries suddenly get membership into NATO between 1999 and 2004? The NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization.


I'm going to go with "because the Soviet Union acted like assholes towards them for half a century, and the Russian Federation continued the policies of their predecessors".

They are free countries. If Russia didn't want them to ally themselves with NATO it should have offered them a more attractive deal, rather than threatening and bullying and trying to pretend that the world had not changed and it still had an empire in all but name.

But let me turn the question around: why do YOU think all those countries rejected the Warsaw Pact and joined NATO the moment they had a free choice?

(You *do* realize that none of those countries were members of the Warsaw Pact of their own free will, right?)
 
2014-03-02 08:12:10 AM  

czetie: However, only one country involved here has tanks and troops openly operating in another country's sovereign territory; and I'm still fascinated to hear how you intend to justify military force as the appropriate way to resolve a political and economic dispute?


Justify military force?  I wasn't aware the Russian troops had attacked or even wounded anyone.  It's a show of force, hardly the application of it.  And the Crimea PM (PM of the AUTONOMOUS REGION OF CRIMEA) did in fact invite the Russians in, no??

The irony here is that it's precisely Russia's bullying, racist, nationalist, militaristic, censorious descent into near-dictatorship that is pushing the countries of central Europe into the arms of Europe. (And incidentally, several of them have centuries of ties with Europe long before they spent 50 years in the freezer of the Cold War.)

Completely agree.  And the EU/IMF clusterfarks in Spain, Greece, Latvia, etc, make Ukraine very wary to trust either the EU, or anyone who supports IMF policies.  Lot of distrust on both sides, and justifiably
 
2014-03-02 08:12:36 AM  

jakomo002: Except their former satellites were actively and aggressively recruited into NATO by the West.
I mean, how is it that  ALL these countries suddenly get membership into NATO between 1999 and 2004?  The NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization.


Well, obviously to have protection from Russia. As a Latvian, I'm perfectly okay with being protected from Russia by the NATO. As for the North Atlantic part, well, it's just a name without actual meaning.

However. Much as I like my own country _not_ to be part of Russia, Crimean people overwhelmingly want at least Russian protection. Because Ukrainian police and army apparently can't provide it; or at least provide to the satisfaction of Crimean population. If we, Latvia, have the right of self-determination to escape Russia and seek protection from it with NATO, then Crimea have the right of self-determination to escape the rest of Ukraine and seek protection with Russia.

You can't have the right of self-determination for some and don't have it for others.

Now, if Russians were to go where they are not invited (say, Kiev) - then it'll be a clear, no ifs, buts and howevers invasion. They weren't, so it's not as clear cut.
 
2014-03-02 08:12:53 AM  
The Today Show (I know) just reported hundreds more military vehicles moving thru Ukraine towards a military base, and referred to the feel in East Ukraine as "mutinous". Citizens on both sides are grouping together forming militia's.

Tho
 
2014-03-02 08:13:20 AM  
I think we would stay out of this one. As long as Ukraine isn't part of NATO.
 
2014-03-02 08:21:04 AM  
MOM.... Bartholomew HUSSEIN Osama is being a pussy. MOOOOMMM...... make him stop being a pussy.
 
2014-03-02 08:21:05 AM  

lindalouwho: The Today Show (I know) just reported hundreds more military vehicles moving thru Ukraine towards a military base, and referred to the feel in East Ukraine as "mutinous". Citizens on both sides are grouping together forming militia's.

Tho


(oops)

Putin has known from the get-go a Ukrainian civil war is inevitable. He just wants to be in place to grab what he can when it's over. There's a reason Russian troops have yet to fire a shot.

I've figured civil war was inevitable, and friends in west Ukraine have been preparing for it since last summer. I really wish there was a way to make Putin GTFO.
 
2014-03-02 08:22:18 AM  

SirEattonHogg: Waxing the tadpole?  Is that a real expression?


Yes. You can even buy wax tadpole candles. And waxy-looking soap tadpoles.

No. I don't know why.
 
2014-03-02 08:22:25 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: At a family function last night my aunt suggested the best way to fix all this would be for us to threaten to nuke everyone involved unless Putin and "the Ukraine president" agreed to a summit at a neutral site -- Wasilla, Alaska -- under the watchful diplomatic wink of America's finest expert on international politics, you betcha.

Yep, it's not even 7:30AM EST and you've already heard the stupidest thing you'll hear all day long.


Are you aware of the "Sarah Palin predicted this six years ago and you libtards mocked her for it!" talking point currently circulating?

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/28/palin-on-ukraine-i-t ol d-you-so/
 
2014-03-02 08:24:08 AM  

soupafi: I think we would stay out of this one. As long as Ukraine isn't part of NATO.


I think EU shouldn't stay out of it. I think it would be perfectly okay for EU to put their troops in the Western part of the Ukraine, say, as a part of joint peacekeeping mission. Judging by my discussions with Ukrainians, nobody would object to that, not Western Ukraine, not Eastern Ukraine, not Crimea, not even Putin, if EU troops would be properly invited. Everyone would breath more easily.

Also, EU should help Ukraine with money. If you really want to help, write a check. A big one. Ukraine is close to bankruptcy; they desperately need money. EU will show, this way, that you can rely on them in a bad situation, and their statements of support are more than empty words.

Because, you know, so far, the general opinion of the countries in that region is that it's actually mostly empty words. At least if Russia promises support, right or wrong, support it provides.
 
2014-03-02 08:25:15 AM  

K3rmy: bah, it was nothing more than an attempted land grab.  Putin had no muscle behind it and he knew it.  He withdrew the troops as he knew that they could not withstand  a wayward wind blowing to hit them and Hopey McChange was not a person he could show his face in the world after (appearing to be) punked down.  This is not to say that Russia has no forces worth reckoning with - they simply did not send any to play in Crimea.

Putin is not done there yet.  He is plotting. . .scheming.  The US may currently have a helmet-headed special needs child as president but those types tend to hit hard.  (The exception was Chimpy McFlightsuit who was too busy spending time at his ranch at the beginning of his first term to do anything of consequence)


Goddamn right. What we need now is a formal declaration of war, rationing for the civilian populace, universal draft, and increased tax rates to protect our vital interests in not losing face over a shiat peninsula that considers itself russian. Or, you're using this as an excuse to disparage the democratically elected president, thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy that you are so eager to war with.
 
2014-03-02 08:25:59 AM  

czetie: But let me turn the question around: why do YOU think all those countries rejected the Warsaw Pact and joined NATO the moment they had a free choice?


Because the Warsaw Pact disbanded  25 February 1991, and joining NATO meant if Russia ever tried to roll back in, they were a member and would get protection.  Sort of like paying the Mob for protection.

Because all these former satellites were poor, had very bad militaries and were terrified of Russian plans, so they became junior members of NATO.  Not exactly free choice.

Note that none joined immediately, some as late as 2004
 
2014-03-02 08:26:03 AM  

SpdrJay: SirEattonHogg: Waxing the tadpole?  Is that a real expression?

It's a perfectly cromulent idiom.


I hate you all.
 
2014-03-02 08:28:56 AM  

Animatronik: Russia's former satellites are FORMER satellites. It's not clear that Russian speaking Ukrainians want to be part of Russia or simply to maintain close ties. If Russia gets into a military conflict in Ukraine, everyone will assume correctly that it's a land grab.

If Russia actually believed that there was never a chance that some of it's allies would seek a NATO or EU alliance, that's just foolishness .


Russia doesn't seem to see it that way. Here and in Georgia it appears to assume that "Russia comes not for a day or a season but forever." It's not so much a land grab as repairing Russia's territorial integrity.
 
2014-03-02 08:29:12 AM  

SuperSeriousMan: AngryDragon: FTA: "Hundreds Of Russian Troops Seen On Road To Simferopol ...Twelve military trucks carrying troops, a Tiger vehicle armed with a machine gun and two ambulances were seen by Associated Press journalists on the road heading from Sevastopol - the Crimean port where Russia has its naval base - to Simferopol "

That's an odd definition of both "disappeared" and "normal", but ok.

Read the paragraph after that: "However, there were no signs of any troops in Simferopol, or any crowds in the squares where masked gunmen were seen on Saturday."

Seems like subby read the whole article, unlike some other people in this thread...


Well, unless they're quantum infantry I would assume that being on the road to Simferopol mean that they are not yet in Simferopol.  Just a guess though.
 
2014-03-02 08:33:35 AM  
don't worry, Russia's not a threat according to BlackJesus. HeavenForbid RichMormon had something to say about this months ago,

MR. ROMNEY: Excuse me. It's a geopolitical foe. And I said in the same - in the same paragraph, I said, and Iran is the greatest national security threat we face. Russia does continue to battle us in the U.N. time and time again. I have clear eyes on this. I'm not going to wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr. Putin, and I'm certainly not going to say to him, I'll give you more flexibility after the election. After the election he'll get more backbone.
 
2014-03-02 08:37:40 AM  

utah dude: don't worry, Russia's not a threat according to BlackJesus. HeavenForbid RichMormon had something to say about this months ago,

MR. ROMNEY: Excuse me. It's a geopolitical foe. And I said in the same - in the same paragraph, I said, and Iran is the greatest national security threat we face. Russia does continue to battle us in the U.N. time and time again. I have clear eyes on this. I'm not going to wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr. Putin, and I'm certainly not going to say to him, I'll give you more flexibility after the election. After the election he'll get more backbone.


... and after that comment, Putin stepped up his sabre-rattling because he suddenly realized that 47% of voting Americans agreed with a guy who wanted to wave his dick at Russia on TV.

Thanks for making a foe where there wasn't one before, Romney. Good farkin' job.
 
2014-03-02 08:51:27 AM  

hobbes0022: This doesn't even feel real, major modern countries like Russia still invade their neighbors?  They didn't even call them an axis of evil.


Russia is a "major, modern countr[y]?"

I count at least two words wrong there.

/do they have the information vegetable, animal, and mineral?
 
2014-03-02 08:52:49 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: At a family function last night my aunt suggested the best way to fix all this would be for us to threaten to nuke everyone involved unless Putin and "the Ukraine president" agreed to a summit at a neutral site -- Wasilla, Alaska -- under the watchful diplomatic wink of America's finest expert on international politics, you betcha.

Yep, it's not even 7:30AM EST and you've already heard the stupidest thing you'll hear all day long.


Wow.... just... wow.
 
2014-03-02 08:53:14 AM  

Fail in Human Form: Marmilman: Thanks fark mods for green lighting complete bullshiat newsflashes for the second time in a row.

Coming here for news instead of entertainment is a little pointless.  Look at the posts.  If you want to follow the issue I suggest.

Reddit Live Blog

Euromaidan Twitter Account

BBC Live Blog

Hromadske.tv


It's too bad that in this country we don't have some kind of, you know, TV station giving us actual news. That would be a nice thing to have.
 
2014-03-02 08:53:27 AM  

Rhino_man: utah dude: don't worry, Russia's not a threat according to BlackJesus. HeavenForbid RichMormon had something to say about this months ago,

MR. ROMNEY: Excuse me. It's a geopolitical foe. And I said in the same - in the same paragraph, I said, and Iran is the greatest national security threat we face. Russia does continue to battle us in the U.N. time and time again. I have clear eyes on this. I'm not going to wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr. Putin, and I'm certainly not going to say to him, I'll give you more flexibility after the election. After the election he'll get more backbone.

... and after that comment, Putin stepped up his sabre-rattling because he suddenly realized that 47% of voting Americans agreed with a guy who wanted to wave his dick at Russia on TV.

Thanks for making a foe where there wasn't one before, Romney. Good farkin' job.


of course BlackJesus is the only begotten sent free of sin to save us all. of course. drop me a phat bassline for some dance competition, brother.
 
2014-03-02 08:54:24 AM  

utah dude: don't worry, Russia's not a threat according to BlackJesus. HeavenForbid RichMormon had something to say about this months ago,

MR. ROMNEY: Excuse me. It's a geopolitical foe. And I said in the same - in the same paragraph, I said, and Iran is the greatest national security threat we face. Russia does continue to battle us in the U.N. time and time again. I have clear eyes on this. I'm not going to wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr. Putin, and I'm certainly not going to say to him, I'll give you more flexibility after the election. After the election he'll get more backbone.


In business and in politics you either wind up with an empty suit or a shark running things - kinda wish we had a shark right now.
 
2014-03-02 08:54:50 AM  

buffalosoldier: Mr. Coffee Nerves: At a family function last night my aunt suggested the best way to fix all this would be for us to threaten to nuke everyone involved unless Putin and "the Ukraine president" agreed to a summit at a neutral site -- Wasilla, Alaska -- under the watchful diplomatic wink of America's finest expert on international politics, you betcha.

Yep, it's not even 7:30AM EST and you've already heard the stupidest thing you'll hear all day long.

Wow.... just... wow.


Sarah Palin just prepared a venison potato casserole for the occasion, i heard.
 
2014-03-02 08:57:31 AM  

lifeboat:


Love it.
 
2014-03-02 08:57:52 AM  
Crimea was part of Russia until the Communists gave it to Ukraine as part of 300 year celebrations in 1954. It's population is more Russian than Ukrainian and the Russians still have major military facilities there. So it's not like the Russians are invading "foreign" country like say, Iraq.
 
2014-03-02 08:58:29 AM  

Grahor: jakomo002: Except their former satellites were actively and aggressively recruited into NATO by the West.
I mean, how is it that  ALL these countries suddenly get membership into NATO between 1999 and 2004?  The NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization.

Well, obviously to have protection from Russia. As a Latvian, I'm perfectly okay with being protected from Russia by the NATO. As for the North Atlantic part, well, it's just a name without actual meaning.

However. Much as I like my own country _not_ to be part of Russia, Crimean people overwhelmingly want at least Russian protection. Because Ukrainian police and army apparently can't provide it; or at least provide to the satisfaction of Crimean population. If we, Latvia, have the right of self-determination to escape Russia and seek protection from it with NATO, then Crimea have the right of self-determination to escape the rest of Ukraine and seek protection with Russia.

You can't have the right of self-determination for some and don't have it for others.

Now, if Russians were to go where they are not invited (say, Kiev) - then it'll be a clear, no ifs, buts and howevers invasion. They weren't, so it's not as clear cut.


But what if it's Yankuvich who invites them? After all, according to Moscow, he's the legitimate ruler. Suddenly it's not clear at all.

This whole situation is a gigantic clusterfark of no good side.  Terrible as it sounds, BOTH sides have legitimate arguments as to why they're right.  But I have to say that Russia's case seems the more unstable.  Ukraine has a historical fear of being conquered and annexed back to Russia.  All of Russia's moves seem to be acting exactly in this way...and the historical precedent of Germany between 1937 and 1939 is all to close.  I think there are ways to protect the Russian population of the Crimea that don't require military mobilization, takeover of government buildings and airports.
 
2014-03-02 08:59:12 AM  

generallyso: hobbes0022: This doesn't even feel real, major modern countries like Russia still invade their neighbors?  They didn't even call them an axis of evil.

Maybe the Russian public isn't stupid enough to swallow such ham-fisted propaganda.


If you've ever heard an actual Russian national start talking about conspiracy theories, you know they want to believe.
 
2014-03-02 09:00:42 AM  

Rhino_man: utah dude: don't worry, Russia's not a threat according to BlackJesus. HeavenForbid RichMormon had something to say about this months ago,

MR. ROMNEY: Excuse me. It's a geopolitical foe. And I said in the same - in the same paragraph, I said, and Iran is the greatest national security threat we face. Russia does continue to battle us in the U.N. time and time again. I have clear eyes on this. I'm not going to wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr. Putin, and I'm certainly not going to say to him, I'll give you more flexibility after the election. After the election he'll get more backbone.

... and after that comment, Putin stepped up his sabre-rattling because he suddenly realized that 47% of voting Americans agreed with a guy who wanted to wave his dick at Russia on TV.

Thanks for making a foe where there wasn't one before, Romney. Good farkin' job.


You're blind if you couldn't see Putins desire for power - the man has been pm or president for almost 15 years - he "won" 99% of the vote in Chechnya - you know that place that has been fighting Russia for almost a decade now?

For an informed person your lack of information on this topic makes me sad - go study and come back to the conversation later.
 
2014-03-02 09:03:50 AM  

youmightberight: Rhino_man: utah dude: don't worry, Russia's not a threat according to BlackJesus. HeavenForbid RichMormon had something to say about this months ago,

MR. ROMNEY: Excuse me. It's a geopolitical foe. And I said in the same - in the same paragraph, I said, and Iran is the greatest national security threat we face. Russia does continue to battle us in the U.N. time and time again. I have clear eyes on this. I'm not going to wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr. Putin, and I'm certainly not going to say to him, I'll give you more flexibility after the election. After the election he'll get more backbone.

... and after that comment, Putin stepped up his sabre-rattling because he suddenly realized that 47% of voting Americans agreed with a guy who wanted to wave his dick at Russia on TV.

Thanks for making a foe where there wasn't one before, Romney. Good farkin' job.

You're blind if you couldn't see Putins desire for power - the man has been pm or president for almost 15 years - he "won" 99% of the vote in Chechnya - you know that place that has been fighting Russia for almost a decade now?

For an informed person your lack of information on this topic makes me sad - go study and come back to the conversation later.


<not me> but b ut but i'm  a liberal hippy that thinks everyone can just get along and love each other, especially in the UN... compromise and agreements are the foundation for the future. gay flags for everyone! yay! </not me>
 
2014-03-02 09:05:31 AM  
This is just as much a power grab by the west as it is a retention of power by Russia. The legit govt chose Russia to deal with and the west didn't like it so they fuel an "uprising" and pull off a coup.
 
2014-03-02 09:06:04 AM  

SirEattonHogg: Waxing the tadpole?  Is that a real expression?


It's a new one. It started at about the same time as "pussy on the chainwax"
 
2014-03-02 09:06:32 AM  

jakomo002: Animatronik: jakomo002: Animatronik: Ukraine does not have to be part of either the EU or Russia. But if you are faced with the choice of either austerity or defaulting on debt, it's not a matter of what the EU will do for you, it's a matter of how to continue to function without runaway inflation and no money to pay for infrastructure.

Well said, but that's nowhere near to how the media (specifically U.S.) is treating it.  And the EU makes MONEY on Ukraine's IMF-imposed austerity.  Ukraine becomes a cheap market for foreign companies to flood.

And Russia has seen too many of her former satellites go over to the West (or even NATO), despite assurances after the USSR dissolved by the West that they would never.

Russia's former satellites are FORMER satellites. It's not clear that Russian speaking Ukrainians want to be part of Russia or simply to maintain close ties. If Russia gets into a military conflict in Ukraine, everyone will assume correctly that it's a land grab.

If Russia actually believed that there was never a chance that some of it's allies would seek a NATO or EU alliance, that's just foolishness .

Except their former satellites were actively and aggressively recruited into NATO by the West.
I mean, how is it that  ALL these countries suddenly get membership into NATO between 1999 and 2004?  The NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization.

Czech Republic  Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
 Hungary Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991.
 Poland Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1990.
 Bulgaria Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991.
 Estonia Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
 Latvia Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
 Lithuania Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
 Romania Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991.
 Slovakia Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991 as part of Czechoslovakia.
 Slovenia Previously part of Yugoslavia 1945-1991 (Non-aligned)


Well, first thing you do when a long-term relationship ends is get into a "thing" with someone else known to be easy. I guess NATO just has that reputation.

NATO: Everybody's rebound partner.
 
2014-03-02 09:07:58 AM  

jamspoon: Crimea was part of Russia until the Communists gave it to Ukraine as part of 300 year celebrations in 1954. It's population is more Russian than Ukrainian and the Russians still have major military facilities there. So it's not like the Russians are invading "foreign" country like say, Iraq.


From what I am hearing, Crimea wanted to return to Russia, or at least the folks that chased their president out.  Seems like their old president is the only one still complaining.  Well, when your people chase you out of the country, consider yourself impeached, and the US and everyone else should stop paying attention to him.  I get that the US wants their puppet, but they need to realize they don't always get their puppets.
 
2014-03-02 09:10:04 AM  

jakomo002: czetie: However, only one country involved here has tanks and troops openly operating in another country's sovereign territory; and I'm still fascinated to hear how you intend to justify military force as the appropriate way to resolve a political and economic dispute?

Justify military force?  I wasn't aware the Russian troops had attacked or even wounded anyone.  It's a show of force, hardly the application of it.  And the Crimea PM (PM of the AUTONOMOUS REGION OF CRIMEA) did in fact invite the Russians in, no??

The irony here is that it's precisely Russia's bullying, racist, nationalist, militaristic, censorious descent into near-dictatorship that is pushing the countries of central Europe into the arms of Europe. (And incidentally, several of them have centuries of ties with Europe long before they spent 50 years in the freezer of the Cold War.)

Completely agree.  And the EU/IMF clusterfarks in Spain, Greece, Latvia, etc, make Ukraine very wary to trust either the EU, or anyone who supports IMF policies.  Lot of distrust on both sides, and justifiably


A home invasion is still a "home invasion" even if I don't cut yer nuts off.

Iz yu trollin'?
 
2014-03-02 09:12:12 AM  

jakomo002: Czech Republic Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
Hungary Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991.
Poland Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1990.
Bulgaria Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991.
Estonia Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
Latvia Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991
Lithuania Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991

Romania Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991.
Slovakia Member of the rival Warsaw Pact 1955-1991 as part of Czechoslovakia.
Slovenia Previously part of Yugoslavia 1945-1991 (Non-aligned)


WTF is wrong with you?

France Member of the rival 3rd Reich 1940-1944
 
2014-03-02 09:16:42 AM  
Sigh. I said this in a thread the other day. Putin deserves a swift, hard punch to the cock.

From teh beeb:

Mr Putin said Moscow reserved the right to protect its interests and those of Russian speakers in Ukraine.

President Putin submitted his request for troops to the Russian parliament on Saturday "in connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine and the threat to the lives of Russian citizens", the Kremlin said.


Don't like how the Ukrainian government is governing Ukrainian citizens in Ukraine?

i.imgur.com

And the spin from Russia is sick. The interim government repealed a law that weird Vik passed recognising Russian as an official language; Russia says that's discrimination.

It won't happen, but I think the Kinison solution is the best. Want to be Russian? Move to farking Russia.

And, since Russia's line is about how Russian Ukraine is, perhaps, just for shiats and giggles, we should give Russia's seat on the UN security council to Ukraine. There's a past precedent there, with PRC taking ROC's seat; that would declaw Putin massively.

/Absolut fantasy of course.
//Cheeky vodak reference achieved,
 
2014-03-02 09:16:55 AM  
Ah, Vlad was just transferring troops this turn.
 
2014-03-02 09:17:02 AM  
pbs.twimg.com
 
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