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(Slate)   Could Crimea become Putin's Waterloo? You know what they say; THE HISTORY BOOK ON THE SHELF IS ALWAYS REPEATING ITSEEEEEEEEEEEELF   ( slate.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Crimea, Vladimir Putin, Waterloo, President Viktor Yanukovych, Black Sea Fleet, imperialisms, Nikita Khrushchev, Soviet republics  
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2160 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Mar 2014 at 12:48 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-01 09:06:27 PM  

Obama: "We're sending TJ Oshie into negotiate!"

i2.wp.com

"Anyone else want to negotiate?"

 
2014-03-01 09:06:51 PM  
Well, maybe. Is he playing the part of Wellington?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-03-01 09:15:28 PM  
That narrow strip of land tethering northern Crimea to the Ukrainian mainland, called the Perokop Isthmus, is the peninsula's lifeline. What's left out of most Western analyses of Putin's brazen military intervention is the Crimea's complete economic dependence on the mainland, which provides nearly all of its electricity and water and about 70 percent of its food.

It would serve the heirs to the Soviet Union right if they had to do their own Berlin Airlift to keep their enclave alive.
 
2014-03-01 09:26:19 PM  
One major advantage over Napoleon, though: Putin's not trying to attack Moscow.
 
2014-03-01 09:43:00 PM  
Time to cast Lvl. 8 Cock of the Infinite.
 
2014-03-01 09:54:16 PM  
No. It's more likely to be the Peninsular War than Waterloo of the Napoleonic period.
 
2014-03-01 10:05:06 PM  
Just think, if we'd elected Romney president he could have engineered a leveraged buyout of Ukraine and sold it in pieces to Russia and the EU.


many military retirees for whom Crimea was like a Soviet Florida

That explains a fair amount.

In Soviet Florida...
 
2014-03-01 10:06:11 PM  
I am really surprised he invaded. It shows a real weakness that they have to invade a country they've controlled for 500 years due to the massive kleptocracy Putin has turn Russia into.
 
2014-03-01 10:07:09 PM  
I was thinking that it could be more like Putin's Afghanistan.
 
2014-03-01 10:14:18 PM  
I'm pretty sure it's Putin's Thermopylae.  Except Putin is Xerxes and Obama is Leonidas and the Tartars are the Thespians and the Ukrainians are... wait, let me think about this... um... oh, fark it, I just want to see Eva Green naked.
 
2014-03-01 10:19:21 PM  
Waterloo Waterloo where will you meet your Waterloo
Every puppy has his day everybody has to pay everybody has to meet his Waterloo
 
2014-03-01 10:24:02 PM  
ERMAHGERD Russia is invading Ukraine!!! == Russia adds more troops to its base in Sevastopol (and surrounding area).

Now, if Putin pushes troops into mainland Ukraine, now THAT would be a bigger deal.
 
2014-03-01 10:31:27 PM  

xanadian: ERMAHGERD Russia is invading Ukraine!!! == Russia adds more troops to its base in Sevastopol (and surrounding area).

Now, if Putin pushes troops into mainland Ukraine, now THAT would be a bigger deal.


This^
 
2014-03-01 10:37:58 PM  

xanadian: ERMAHGERD Russia is invading Ukraine!!! == Russia adds more troops to its base in Sevastopol (and surrounding area).

Now, if Putin pushes troops into mainland Ukraine, now THAT would be a bigger deal.


Reports of Russian troops massing in northern Crimea. They will take Kiev by Monday.
 
2014-03-01 10:49:27 PM  
I love the people saying, "This isn't a big deal, the Crimea was part of Russia before the US existed!"

So was Kiev.
 
2014-03-01 10:50:58 PM  
Time for a little culture you heathen:

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death,
Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
 
2014-03-01 10:57:54 PM  
That is one of the worst analogies of which I've ever heard.
 
2014-03-01 11:28:59 PM  
Why hasn't Obama done some magical thing that I can't think of to fix this!!!???

Sarah Palin's speech writers totally saw this coming!

Why aren't we all burning heaps of nuclear annihilation yet? If not over this random country that I can't find on a map, then when!???'

The entire continent of Europe has no stake in this, and I have not considered what our alllies there are thinking.

Why can't Seal Team 6 fix this??
 
2014-03-01 11:40:31 PM  
I don't know where I've seen this story before... Perhaps someone could fill me in?

The plot lines are: a distinct persecution of a minority, Olympic games to show off splendour, and the invasion of another country on the basis of national affinity.
 
2014-03-01 11:51:02 PM  

spqr_ca: I don't know where I've seen this story before... Perhaps someone could fill me in?

The plot lines are: a distinct persecution of a minority, Olympic games to show off splendour, and the invasion of another country on the basis of national affinity.


We've barely finished our last wars and you guys want a new one.  Go play Call of Duty or something.
 
2014-03-01 11:55:37 PM  

Mentat: spqr_ca: I don't know where I've seen this story before... Perhaps someone could fill me in?

The plot lines are: a distinct persecution of a minority, Olympic games to show off splendour, and the invasion of another country on the basis of national affinity.

We've barely finished our last wars and you guys want a new one.  Go play Call of Duty or something.


We aren't going to go to war with Russia.  Putin is going to strut around wagging his dick at people, the Ukraine may send troops and have some border skirmishes with the occupying forces, the UN will sternly disapprove of the whole mess, and aside from more riots and civil violence within the Ukraine nothing more will come of it.
 
2014-03-01 11:58:10 PM  
Putin's Alamo? Isn't this kinda what we did to Mexico with Texas?
 
2014-03-02 01:01:16 AM  
I just wonder what it's going to take to get the Russians excited about what their kleptocratic leaders are doing. Trillions has been siphoned of the country's natural resources and nobody seems too worried.
 
2014-03-02 01:02:21 AM  
Putin to the right of them
Putin to the left of them
Putin in front of them
Reared his giant head
 
2014-03-02 01:06:09 AM  
Look, we just don't seize physical territory anymore to dominate other nations. It's old-school thinking. You don't need to redraw lines on the map to be a powerful hegemon anymore. Often, just having the power to *threaten* to invade is better than actually committing troops.

cdn.static-economist.com

So easy, an heiress can do it.
 
2014-03-02 01:06:43 AM  

spqr_ca: I don't know where I've seen this story before... Perhaps someone could fill me in?

The plot lines are: a distinct persecution of a minority, Olympic games to show off splendour, and the invasion of another country on the basis of national affinity.


Me too! I'll have a sit in mein kampfy chair that is in my bunker and see if I can remember.
 
2014-03-02 01:13:09 AM  
more liek kubrick's napoleon

amirite
 
2014-03-02 01:16:04 AM  
Does this mean the British have to commit 600 light troops in a vainglorious bid to capture a battery of Russian artillery dug in at the end of a valley in Sevastopol?
 
2014-03-02 01:19:20 AM  

Mentat: I love the people saying, "This isn't a big deal, the Crimea was part of Russia before the US existed!"

So was Kiev.


Kiev should revert to Sweden.  It was after all founded by Vikings.
 
2014-03-02 01:19:56 AM  

spqr_ca: The plot lines are: a distinct persecution of a minority, Olympic games to show off splendour, and the invasion of another country on the basis of national affinity.


Just don't forget that as long as all that happened was about Sudetendland, western powers were totally cool with it.

And so they'll be here.

Now, if Putin would invade Poland, that's a totally different story. France, for starters, would not stand for it...
 
2014-03-02 01:21:30 AM  

Grahor: Now, if Putin would invade Poland, that's a totally different story.


Putin was invited. Cake and punch will be served.
 
2014-03-02 01:22:30 AM  
Apparently, the southern part of Ukraine is okay with remaining Russian. The northwestern part wants to remain independent.

Before everyone gets all panicky and the sabers become irretrievably rattled, it looks like a partitioning might work nicely; let the Crimea and southeast Ukraine go back to Russia if they want to, and let northwest Ukraine and Kiev become (or remain) Ukraine. We don't need to start Tank War Europa just because that would be fun for all the geeks who want to replay the Kursk Salient again.
 
2014-03-02 01:30:21 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Apparently, the southern part of Ukraine is okay with remaining Russian. The northwestern part wants to remain independent.


That's not exactly like this. Eastern-Southern parts more would like to have guarantees that they will not be repressed or outright attacked by new regime's "banderovtsi", and considering some of the excesses and rhetorics of the nationalists of Maidan, it's not exactly just fears. They want more autonomy and self-governance; they use Russia to back up their side in the dealings with new Kiev.

But that can backfire easily.

Before everyone gets all panicky and the sabers become irretrievably rattled, it looks like a partitioning might work nicely; let the Crimea and southeast Ukraine go back to Russia if they want to, and let northwest Ukraine and Kiev become (or remain) Ukraine. We don't need to start Tank War Europa just because that would be fun for all the geeks who want to replay the Kursk Salient again.

I think everyone would be totes cool with it. Me, I'm all for the right of self-determination by the people; if the people of any area, democratically, through referendums, decide where they want to go or whom to join, I'm all for helping them to get their hearts' desire.
 
2014-03-02 01:31:21 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Apparently, the southern part of Ukraine is okay with remaining Russian. The northwestern part wants to remain independent.

Before everyone gets all panicky and the sabers become irretrievably rattled, it looks like a partitioning might work nicely; let the Crimea and southeast Ukraine go back to Russia if they want to, and let northwest Ukraine and Kiev become (or remain) Ukraine. We don't need to start Tank War Europa just because that would be fun for all the geeks who want to replay the Kursk Salient again.


Better idea send the ethnic Russians back to Russia as they were sent there decades ago after the soviets killed off as many locals as they could.

If Putin really wishes to protect them bring them back to the motherland give them new homes and jobs, the naval base issue can be hashed out separately.
 
2014-03-02 01:31:31 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: Mentat: I love the people saying, "This isn't a big deal, the Crimea was part of Russia before the US existed!"

So was Kiev.

Kiev should revert to Sweden.  It was after all founded by Vikings.


Give it to the decendants of Kerbouchard.

/nothing is obscure
 
2014-03-02 01:32:27 AM  

grimlock1972: Better idea send the ethnic Russians back to Russia as they were sent there decades ago after the soviets killed off as many locals as they could.


Just frak off. If people were born on the land, it's their land. Otherwise, English Inviders Off the Cherokee Land!
 
2014-03-02 01:38:30 AM  
I'm with those who see Putin in a weak general position.  Russia hasn't been important for more than two decades for a reason, and this ultimately won't change things, may simply accelerate their drop into pre-Peter the great backwaterdom.
 
2014-03-02 01:48:22 AM  

grimlock1972: Better idea send the ethnic Russians back to Russia as they were sent there decades ago after the soviets killed off as many locals as they could.


Honestly, how can ANYONE advocate ethnic cleansing at this day and age? Do you even know what ethnic cleansing is?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
 
2014-03-02 01:48:31 AM  

Grahor: Just frak off. If people were born on the land, it's their land. Otherwise, English Inviders Off the Cherokee Land!


You realize that some of the Tartars that Stalin forced off the land and mass executed so he could force Russians into the area are still alive, right.
 
2014-03-02 01:50:08 AM  
The Crimeans might identify culturally as Russian but nobody actually likes Russia or wants to take orders from Putin. Even when things are great the Russian government treats its friends like dirt. Also, while a partitioning seems an expedient solution for us it's always less popular for the people who are being partitioned. Ukrainians want to belong to the Ukraine, not West or East Ukraine.

Putin could have thrown Yanukovich under the bus and secured Russian interests by bribing the new government in Kiev. By sending troops into Crimea and giving the murdering riot cops Russian citizenship he's essentially declaring himself the mastermind behind Ukraine's hated ex-dictator. Unless he goes full Hitler and sends tanks into the Ukraine Crimea is just an expensive island. And nobody's gonna cheer for the Russians when tanks are driving through their streets.
 
2014-03-02 01:50:53 AM  
Why shouldn't Sevastopol be part of Russia?  Everyone there speaks Russian first and it always has been part of Russia since before the USA was the USA.  If you can't answer that then you are just rattling the saber of war for no good reason.
 
2014-03-02 01:52:10 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: You realize that some of the Tartars that Stalin forced off the land and mass executed so he could force Russians into the area are still alive, right.


So? They have the right for Crimea, they have returned to Crimea, they have their own Tatar Parliament in Crimea. Your point being?
 
2014-03-02 01:52:44 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I was thinking that it could be more like Putin's Afghanistan.


Afghanistan II: Putin's Boogaloo
 
2014-03-02 01:55:08 AM  

Mentat: I love the people saying, "This isn't a big deal, the Crimea was part of Russia before the US existed!"

So was Kiev.


My only question is how much the Ukraine will try to make a big deal of it? The place has a LOT of Russians living there. Yeah, I know, Russia gave the land to them. The trick is that the Ukraine can't just say 'No backsies!' they have to back it up. Putin knows he has a bit of time on his hands. Also with that many Russians living there, it could be a royal PITA to keep it anyway.

Now here is where I get out of my depth. I've heard about a NATO treaty with the Ukraine. How long would it take to get troops there? Can we do much? Russia is on the security council and would probably veto anything if they could. Is it possible to have them forcibly removed for the vote since they're the aggressor? If not, then nothing will get through the UN. Heck, even with them removed China might just vote against it to put a finger in the eye.

There's a dozen other variables, some that notably leave Putin swinging his dick and getting it stuck in a bad situation. The least of which is that he is distracted by the Ukraine situation and the Muslim rebels start going to town with killing and creating a domestic mess.
 
2014-03-02 01:56:37 AM  
Darn you subby, I had that exact same idea but I was waiting for another time.
 
2014-03-02 01:57:05 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-03-02 01:57:22 AM  

fusillade762: Putin's Alamo? Isn't this kinda what we did to Mexico with Texas?


pssst: The Mexicans won at the Alamo in a rout.
 
2014-03-02 01:57:57 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: Grahor: Just frak off. If people were born on the land, it's their land. Otherwise, English Inviders Off the Cherokee Land!

You realize that some of the Tartars that Stalin forced off the land and mass executed so he could force Russians into the area are still alive, right.


that guy is the putin propoganda bot for fark. there is no reasoning with it
 
2014-03-02 02:02:20 AM  

Grahor: grimlock1972: Better idea send the ethnic Russians back to Russia as they were sent there decades ago after the soviets killed off as many locals as they could.

Honestly, how can ANYONE advocate ethnic cleansing at this day and age? Do you even know what ethnic cleansing is?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing


who is talking about killing them , all i said was ship them back to Russia where they ancestors came from.   I would greatly prefer this mess end with no more lives lost than have already been,
 
2014-03-02 02:03:15 AM  

TheWhoppah: Why shouldn't Sevastopol be part of Russia?  Everyone there speaks Russian first and it always has been part of Russia since before the USA was the USA.  If you can't answer that then you are just rattling the saber of war for no good reason.


Same reason the South wasn't allowed to secede from the United States. You don't start a constitutional process to legally reapportion sovereignty by occupying the land with hostile armed soldiers.

If Sevastopol wants to be Russian they need to go to Kiev and get the law passed.
 
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