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(MSN) NewsFlash Russian troops invade the Crimean region of Ukraine. This will not end well   (news.msn.com) divider line 502
    More: NewsFlash, Crimean, Carnegie Moscow Center, Russians, Ukraine, Vladimir Putin, South Ossetia, Russian troops, Yulia Tymoshenko  
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9457 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Mar 2014 at 5:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2014-03-01 09:18:14 PM  
We need to stay out of this. Let them sort it out.
 
2014-03-01 09:19:43 PM  

iq_in_binary: ongbok: jvl: ManateeGag: What, exactly, do you want the US to do about it?

Difficulty: As a condition for Ukraine giving up its Nukes, the US promised to do something about it.

The Russians wouldn't be invading a nuke-armed Ukraine. This is our fault, so hand-wringing won't cut it.

The Russians will probably try to play this as "the old gov't is legit, so the US should invade the rest of the Ukraine and force them to unify with the legitimate Ukraine."  Motherbearfarkers.

No it didn't. The agreement was that the U.S, UK and Russia would respect its borders and stay out of its business. As far as I know there isn't any provision saying the U.S has to be Captain Save a Hoe, especially when it seems that an area of the country is cozying up to Russia

Then what do we tell all the other non-nuclear signatories of the NPT? Ukraine had the third largest stockpile in the world. Russia would NOT have done this had Ukraine decided to accede as a nuclear power. We promised them autonomy and secure borders in exchange for surrender of their stockpile.

If we back out of that agreement, we're basically telling all the other signatories in the ex bloc that the treaty isn't worth the toilet paper they wipe their asses with. What leg would we have to stand on if other ex-bloc countries decide it's not worth it and backs out of the NPT and starts developing arms to stave off aggression?


That may be the most reasonable argument I've heard all day promoting a strong US response but Russia is not threatening the integrity of Ukrain., and truthfully they brook that treaety way back when they cut of the oil to Ukraine and hence Europe to influence politics but the US was occupoed and didn't notice but we don't want our insurgancy buget to go to waste do we US? or Russia? Because on this all sides are full of shiat.
 
2014-03-01 09:19:53 PM  

CanisNoir: Keith Dudemeister: Dude, stop being reasonable and realistic about this whole thing. You rational summary is ruining it for everyone.

Sorry, but the narcassim of Superpower Hangover combined with pure partisan hackery really bothers me. I guess part of the problem is that us Americans have not had a form of "Ethnic Nationalism" since the Civil War so it's difficult for a lot of us to wrap our noggins around the way Europe sees itself.
Russia crossing the border to protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine is not an anomoly in world history, in fact, that kind of action is fairly common. I though Obama's offer of International Forces was a smart choice; it makes Putin rightly look like "the bad guy" for refusing the help in favor of increasing tensions and looking like an aggressor.
Now we just need to take a step back, a little breather and see which way our allies are going to move and then do what we can to assist them. I'm far from an expert in that region, but from where I'm sitting, I don't see any reason why the US should be taking a "leadership" role in trying to solve this problem.


Yep, there's a huge question that no one seems to be asking, which, in Fark terms, is "WHAR EUROPE?" The silence from Western Europe is deafening. There are lots of fingers being pointed at Obama but it seems like Germany (one country away from Ukraine), for example, has a much more vested interest in resolving this peacefully.
 
2014-03-01 09:21:03 PM  

rohar: oxnard_montalvo: Place your napkins on the table

[i.telegraph.co.uk image 620x387]
vs
[www.sargento.com image 525x350]

Winner takes all!!

My bet's on the one on the bottom.  It's definitely more dangerous and harder to detect.


I've been told it's the bottom that is in control.
/Wait wut?
: )
 
2014-03-01 09:22:38 PM  
We shouldn't be Russian to conclusions. I don't care if the nazi dickweasels who prompted the Kiev takeover get Puti-stomped. Ain't none of 'Murica's biz nohow.
 
2014-03-01 09:23:05 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: rohar: oxnard_montalvo: Place your napkins on the table

[i.telegraph.co.uk image 620x387]
vs
[www.sargento.com image 525x350]

Winner takes all!!

My bet's on the one on the bottom.  It's definitely more dangerous and harder to detect.

I've been told it's the bottom that is in control.
/Wait wut?
: )


Gay jokes while discussing submariners?  Well I never...
 
2014-03-01 09:23:14 PM  
 
2014-03-01 09:28:26 PM  
None of this would be happening if the USA had got a medal in hockey.
 
2014-03-01 09:29:23 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-03-01 09:31:32 PM  
We need healthcare army.
 
2014-03-01 09:33:29 PM  
I have no idea with what weapons WWIII will be fought, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.
 
2014-03-01 09:34:03 PM  

rohar: tinfoil-hat maggie: rohar: oxnard_montalvo: Place your napkins on the table

[i.telegraph.co.uk image 620x387]
vs
[www.sargento.com image 525x350]

Winner takes all!!

My bet's on the one on the bottom.  It's definitely more dangerous and harder to detect.

I've been told it's the bottom that is in control.
/Wait wut?
: )

Gay jokes while discussing submariners?  Well I never...


I thought they double bunked : )
 
2014-03-01 09:36:32 PM  

Oldiron_79: I have no idea with what weapons WWIII will be fought, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.


Wise quote from a wise man., and I don't thing he even knew about EMP at the time.
 
2014-03-01 09:37:33 PM  
Any thread with the headline "this will not end well" is implicitly laying down the last post gauntlet.
 
2014-03-01 09:43:25 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Oh boy the same thread morning and evening. Is this one filled weal Farbama,s weak and we should totes go to war with Russia over this.


It is rather tiresome.
 
2014-03-01 09:44:49 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I thought they double bunked : )


It's called "hot-racking".

For a reason.
 
2014-03-01 09:45:26 PM  
I suspect that anything done, any action taken by foreign powers in Ukraine, will come back to haunt them.

Putin won't listen to "dissenters", though.
 
2014-03-01 09:45:33 PM  

vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: Oh boy the same thread morning and evening. Is this one filled weal Farbama,s weak and we should totes go to war with Russia over this.

It is rather tiresome.


I'll drink to that.
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2014-03-01 09:46:37 PM  
The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.
 
2014-03-01 09:47:03 PM  

vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: I thought they double bunked : )

It's called "hot-racking".

For a reason.


Oh my would there be video of this?
: )
 
2014-03-01 09:49:22 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: iq_in_binary: ongbok: jvl: ManateeGag: What, exactly, do you want the US to do about it?

Difficulty: As a condition for Ukraine giving up its Nukes, the US promised to do something about it.

The Russians wouldn't be invading a nuke-armed Ukraine. This is our fault, so hand-wringing won't cut it.

The Russians will probably try to play this as "the old gov't is legit, so the US should invade the rest of the Ukraine and force them to unify with the legitimate Ukraine."  Motherbearfarkers.

No it didn't. The agreement was that the U.S, UK and Russia would respect its borders and stay out of its business. As far as I know there isn't any provision saying the U.S has to be Captain Save a Hoe, especially when it seems that an area of the country is cozying up to Russia

Then what do we tell all the other non-nuclear signatories of the NPT? Ukraine had the third largest stockpile in the world. Russia would NOT have done this had Ukraine decided to accede as a nuclear power. We promised them autonomy and secure borders in exchange for surrender of their stockpile.

If we back out of that agreement, we're basically telling all the other signatories in the ex bloc that the treaty isn't worth the toilet paper they wipe their asses with. What leg would we have to stand on if other ex-bloc countries decide it's not worth it and backs out of the NPT and starts developing arms to stave off aggression?

That may be the most reasonable argument I've heard all day promoting a strong US response but Russia is not threatening the integrity of Ukrain., and truthfully they brook that treaety way back when they cut of the oil to Ukraine and hence Europe to influence politics but the US was occupoed and didn't notice but we don't want our insurgancy buget to go to waste do we US? or Russia? Because on this all sides are full of shiat.


We did take notice. Hence our reaffirmation of security back in '09 after the shuffle in Georgia. The UN and EU (spurred along by the UK) HAVE reacted to Russia's actions with Ukraine by saying they're going to start looking for other sources of energy, and actively pursuing such.

This time there's troops on the ground and ground forces are amassing at the border. The provisional government of Ukraine has already invoked the Budapest Memorandum and many parties within their government have actively been calling for accession to Nuclear Weapon State, and our failure to recognize sections 1, 2, 3, and 6 of the Budapest Memorandum gives them standing to do so.

If we don't get Russian troops out of Ukraine there is a very strong possibility that we go from 4 NWSs in the NPT to a number twice that large or we end up having to watch hopelessly as the NPT falls apart completely because all guarantees are off and non NWS states don't have any incentive to stay signatory.

We don't have to be world police any more, but we do have to preserve the integrity of our treaties and agreements. Our backing and force is the primary stabilizing and enforcement influence behind both the UN and NATO. When that goes out the window, so do they. Trade will suffer, commerce will suffer, everybody will suffer.

There's no "all sides are full of shiat" on this one. Russia is not playing by the rules and we're playing hopscotch while the only side who isn't full of shiat suffers. The only problem is that letting them suffer gives them reason to act in ways we really don't want them to.
 
2014-03-01 09:49:44 PM  

Oldiron_79: I have no idea with what weapons WWIII will be fought, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones.

good Einstein quote, I'll answer with

WWI was the chemist's war
WWII was the physicist's war
WWW III with be fought by mathematicians
 
2014-03-01 09:54:09 PM  

bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.


See that a reasonable response but the American media and war machine want this to be cold war 2.0 and the crazies want hot war 1.03.

Although I don't know how much Russia needs or grain and such anymore but an embargo on that kills the Ukrainian autonomy if it's like it used to be.
 
2014-03-01 09:56:54 PM  

bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.


Just out of curiosity, what consequences would those be?  That's the god damned Black Sea fleet siting right in the middle of this mess.  If this becomes violent, it'll be a naval war.  That fleet is old, but it's still got a lot of teeth and there's soviet sensor arrays all over that piece of water.  It's doable, but losses on our side won't be subtle.
 
2014-03-01 09:57:44 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.

See that a reasonable response but the American media and war machine want this to be cold war 2.0 and the crazies want hot war 1.03.

Although I don't know how much Russia needs or grain and such anymore but an embargo on that kills the Ukrainian autonomy if it's like it used to be.


Just last week they were saying US v  China was the new cold war: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/78920b2e-99ba-11e3-91cd-00144feab7de.html

Russia makes a much better foe.  China just sounds cheap, needs better PR people.
 
2014-03-01 09:58:17 PM  

iq_in_binary: tinfoil-hat maggie: iq_in_binary: ongbok: jvl: ManateeGag: What, exactly, do you want the US to do about it?

Difficulty: As a condition for Ukraine giving up its Nukes, the US promised to do something about it.

The Russians wouldn't be invading a nuke-armed Ukraine. This is our fault, so hand-wringing won't cut it.

The Russians will probably try to play this as "the old gov't is legit, so the US should invade the rest of the Ukraine and force them to unify with the legitimate Ukraine."  Motherbearfarkers.

No it didn't. The agreement was that the U.S, UK and Russia would respect its borders and stay out of its business. As far as I know there isn't any provision saying the U.S has to be Captain Save a Hoe, especially when it seems that an area of the country is cozying up to Russia

Then what do we tell all the other non-nuclear signatories of the NPT? Ukraine had the third largest stockpile in the world. Russia would NOT have done this had Ukraine decided to accede as a nuclear power. We promised them autonomy and secure borders in exchange for surrender of their stockpile.

If we back out of that agreement, we're basically telling all the other signatories in the ex bloc that the treaty isn't worth the toilet paper they wipe their asses with. What leg would we have to stand on if other ex-bloc countries decide it's not worth it and backs out of the NPT and starts developing arms to stave off aggression?

That may be the most reasonable argument I've heard all day promoting a strong US response but Russia is not threatening the integrity of Ukrain., and truthfully they brook that treaety way back when they cut of the oil to Ukraine and hence Europe to influence politics but the US was occupoed and didn't notice but we don't want our insurgancy buget to go to waste do we US? or Russia? Because on this all sides are full of shiat.

We did take notice. Hence our reaffirmation of security back in '09 after the shuffle in Georgia. The UN and EU (spurred along by the ...


Well we'll see if upholding treaties is a good thing the world does love to follow that bloody path and well not now but sooner rather than later I would think.
 
2014-03-01 09:58:55 PM  

Free Radical: If only Sarah Palin were President, this wouldn't be happening!


She'd see it comming
 
2014-03-01 10:02:14 PM  

uber humper: tinfoil-hat maggie: bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.

See that a reasonable response but the American media and war machine want this to be cold war 2.0 and the crazies want hot war 1.03.

Although I don't know how much Russia needs or grain and such anymore but an embargo on that kills the Ukrainian autonomy if it's like it used to be.

Just last week they were saying US v  China was the new cold war: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/78920b2e-99ba-11e3-91cd-00144feab7de.html

Russia makes a much better foe.  China just sounds cheap, needs better PR people.


Those in power will do and say anything to keep the military budget high. Biggest welfare for the rich program there is.
 
2014-03-01 10:04:49 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: uber humper: tinfoil-hat maggie: bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.

See that a reasonable response but the American media and war machine want this to be cold war 2.0 and the crazies want hot war 1.03.

Although I don't know how much Russia needs or grain and such anymore but an embargo on that kills the Ukrainian autonomy if it's like it used to be.

Just last week they were saying US v  China was the new cold war: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/78920b2e-99ba-11e3-91cd-00144feab7de.html

Russia makes a much better foe.  China just sounds cheap, needs better PR people.

Those in power will do and say anything to keep the military budget high. Biggest welfare for the rich program there is.


Keeps the poor working, too.
 
2014-03-01 10:05:19 PM  

iq_in_binary: This time there's troops on the ground and ground forces are amassing at the border. The provisional government of Ukraine has already invoked the Budapest Memorandum and many parties within their government have actively been calling for accession to Nuclear Weapon State, and our failure to recognize sections 1, 2, 3, and 6 of the Budapest Memorandum gives them standing to do so.


I would suggest that last section is utter and complete bullshiat.  As of this point, we've acted incomplete accord with the Budapest Memorandum.  Suggesting we haven't is wishing it read something that it does not.

That said, Russia was a signatory as well.  In any multilateral treaty, when one party breaks the rules, the treaty is over.  Even if we were bound to act, a signatory breached it before we could.  We're off the hook and can make any decision we damned well please.
 
2014-03-01 10:06:26 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.

See that a reasonable response but the American media and war machine want this to be cold war 2.0 and the crazies want hot war 1.03.

Although I don't know how much Russia needs or grain and such anymore but an embargo on that kills the Ukrainian autonomy if it's like it used to be.


Russia needs trade w/Europe and the US as well as the former Soviet Bloc countries. Would it kill them to be hit by sanctions? No, we aren't talking North Korea 2.0. But it would deeply hurt them economically. Not to mention the kinds of stuff the US and Europe could do with monies many of its Russian nationals have invested in the West. Obviously it would hurt us too, but not nearly as much.

Putin's popularity is barely hovering over 50% within his own country. Starting a war and at the same time subjecting his country to economic harm is a huge deterrent to him. He knows this.

Will Ukraine cede Crimea to Russia? Will the Ukraine split? That's the big question. It's pretty obvious that the populace is split and Russia invading Ukraine at some point will cause war and no one wants to see that. Both the US and Russia have enough problems with terrorist organizations and Syria to really want another conflict.

In other words, Putin talks a big game and walks some fine lines, but he's no idiot.
 
2014-03-01 10:09:03 PM  

rohar: iq_in_binary: This time there's troops on the ground and ground forces are amassing at the border. The provisional government of Ukraine has already invoked the Budapest Memorandum and many parties within their government have actively been calling for accession to Nuclear Weapon State, and our failure to recognize sections 1, 2, 3, and 6 of the Budapest Memorandum gives them standing to do so.

I would suggest that last section is utter and complete bullshiat.  As of this point, we've acted incomplete accord with the Budapest Memorandum.  Suggesting we haven't is wishing it read something that it does not.

That said, Russia was a signatory as well.  In any multilateral treaty, when one party breaks the rules, the treaty is over.  Even if we were bound to act, a signatory breached it before we could.  We're off the hook and can make any decision we damned well please.


Then we have absolutely no leg to stand on telling non NWS states that they can't develop nuclear weapons. Nuclear Estonia! YAY!
 
2014-03-01 10:10:53 PM  
LordJiro:  And really, you're surprised that the Russians want to make sure they don't lose their main port on the Black Sea?

Why don't the Russians just build another port? It's been 25 years or so since the USSR fell apart. They cold have build and fancy naval station by now.

I'm no fan of Pooty-Poot, but this is not nearly as big an issue as people are whining about.

It just might be a big issue in the very near future.
Budapest Memorandum

Btw: all you kids who grew up in the 60s and 70s, still remember your duck and cover routines?
Take a refresher. You might need it by next week.
 
2014-03-01 10:11:30 PM  
Typical right wing knuckledragger: "A meteorite the size of a car hit the Moon this week! Why did you sit there and do nothing, Obama!?"
 
2014-03-01 10:12:35 PM  

uber humper: tinfoil-hat maggie: uber humper: tinfoil-hat maggie: bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.

See that a reasonable response but the American media and war machine want this to be cold war 2.0 and the crazies want hot war 1.03.

Although I don't know how much Russia needs or grain and such anymore but an embargo on that kills the Ukrainian autonomy if it's like it used to be.

Just last week they were saying US v  China was the new cold war: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/78920b2e-99ba-11e3-91cd-00144feab7de.html

Russia makes a much better foe.  China just sounds cheap, needs better PR people.

Those in power will do and say anything to keep the military budget high. Biggest welfare for the rich program there is.

Keeps the poor working, too.


Whats, funny is so many of the weapons in the US are still built where that Libby socialist FDR had things like TVA that provide lots of electricity built and I believe their was a similar project in Washington state.

Damn libby socialist and their infrastructure helping win wars.
 
2014-03-01 10:13:14 PM  

bdub77: tinfoil-hat maggie: bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.

See that a reasonable response but the American media and war machine want this to be cold war 2.0 and the crazies want hot war 1.03.

Although I don't know how much Russia needs or grain and such anymore but an embargo on that kills the Ukrainian autonomy if it's like it used to be.

Russia needs trade w/Europe and the US as well as the former Soviet Bloc countries. Would it kill them to be hit by sanctions? No, we aren't talking North Korea 2.0. But it would deeply hurt them economically. Not to mention the kinds of stuff the US and Europe could do with monies many of its Russian nationals have invested in the West. Obviously it would hurt us too, but not nearly as much.

Putin's popularity is barely hovering over 50% within his own country. Starting a war and at the same time subjecting his country to economic harm is a huge deterrent to him. He knows this.

Will Ukraine cede Crimea to Russia? Will the Ukraine split? That's the big question. It's pretty obvious that the populace is split and Russia invading Ukraine at some point will cause war and no one wants to see that. Both the US and Russia have enough problems with terrorist organizations and Syria to really want another conflict.

In other words, Putin talks a big game and walks some fine lines, but he's no idiot.


Russian petroleum account for about 12-15% of world production.  By contrast Iran accounts for about 5%

Russia doesn't export much else besides weapons.  And China would buy the petrol.

By my estimation, anyways
 
2014-03-01 10:14:15 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: uber humper: tinfoil-hat maggie: uber humper: tinfoil-hat maggie: bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.

See that a reasonable response but the American media and war machine want this to be cold war 2.0 and the crazies want hot war 1.03.

Although I don't know how much Russia needs or grain and such anymore but an embargo on that kills the Ukrainian autonomy if it's like it used to be.

Just last week they were saying US v  China was the new cold war: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/78920b2e-99ba-11e3-91cd-00144feab7de.html

Russia makes a much better foe.  China just sounds cheap, needs better PR people.

Those in power will do and say anything to keep the military budget high. Biggest welfare for the rich program there is.

Keeps the poor working, too.

Whats, funny is so many of the weapons in the US are still built where that Libby socialist FDR had things like TVA that provide lots of electricity built and I believe their was a similar project in Washington state.

Damn libby socialist and their infrastructure helping win wars.


Onward! Red brothers!
 
2014-03-01 10:16:53 PM  

iq_in_binary: rohar: iq_in_binary: This time there's troops on the ground and ground forces are amassing at the border. The provisional government of Ukraine has already invoked the Budapest Memorandum and many parties within their government have actively been calling for accession to Nuclear Weapon State, and our failure to recognize sections 1, 2, 3, and 6 of the Budapest Memorandum gives them standing to do so.

I would suggest that last section is utter and complete bullshiat.  As of this point, we've acted incomplete accord with the Budapest Memorandum.  Suggesting we haven't is wishing it read something that it does not.

That said, Russia was a signatory as well.  In any multilateral treaty, when one party breaks the rules, the treaty is over.  Even if we were bound to act, a signatory breached it before we could.  We're off the hook and can make any decision we damned well please.

Then we have absolutely no leg to stand on telling non NWS states that they can't develop nuclear weapons. Nuclear Estonia! YAY!


We never did but we didn't let that stop us. The International Court has not appointed the US as Sheriff and many debate it's standing.
 
2014-03-01 10:17:04 PM  

MechaPyx: Eh, it's in their backyard and they have a huge naval base there. I'd be surprised if they didn't move troops in. We'd do the same thing in that situation.


Its not just their backyard.  Crimea is part of Russia and has been Russian since before the USA was the USA. The idea that Sevastopol was Ukrainian is laughable when you consider that it was founded 300 years ago by Russians and 90% of the population speaks Russian as their mother tongue.  Anyone that had occasion to consider what would happen if Kiev split from Moscow already knew this would happen... it is so blatantly obvious that a blind squirrel could find this nut.
 
2014-03-01 10:17:55 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: I thought they double bunked : )

It's called "hot-racking".

For a reason.

Oh my would there be video of this?
: )


I'm surprised there isn't an upload from some carrier or another by now. Tens of thousands of former enlisted and not one has a video of this?
 
2014-03-01 10:19:15 PM  

iq_in_binary: rohar: iq_in_binary: This time there's troops on the ground and ground forces are amassing at the border. The provisional government of Ukraine has already invoked the Budapest Memorandum and many parties within their government have actively been calling for accession to Nuclear Weapon State, and our failure to recognize sections 1, 2, 3, and 6 of the Budapest Memorandum gives them standing to do so.

I would suggest that last section is utter and complete bullshiat.  As of this point, we've acted incomplete accord with the Budapest Memorandum.  Suggesting we haven't is wishing it read something that it does not.

That said, Russia was a signatory as well.  In any multilateral treaty, when one party breaks the rules, the treaty is over.  Even if we were bound to act, a signatory breached it before we could.  We're off the hook and can make any decision we damned well please.

Then we have absolutely no leg to stand on telling non NWS states that they can't develop nuclear weapons. Nuclear Estonia! YAY!


Sadly, yup.  Welcome to international law.
 
2014-03-01 10:21:15 PM  

hi13760: [img.fark.net image 350x252]


You keep telling yourself that.
Underestimating your enemy always works out in the end.
 
2014-03-01 10:21:57 PM  

uber humper: tinfoil-hat maggie: uber humper: tinfoil-hat maggie: uber humper: tinfoil-hat maggie: bdub77: The US does have retaliatory capability without going full retard. Sanctions w/European allies. The missile shield in Poland. Actions related to Syria. Maybe just threaten to send the Finnish hockey team to Moscow.

However I do think it's completely overblown. I think the US response has been pretty good so far, diplomatic in recognizing Russia's ties w/Ukraine while also making sure that if a war or violence breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, there will be consequences.

See that a reasonable response but the American media and war machine want this to be cold war 2.0 and the crazies want hot war 1.03.

Although I don't know how much Russia needs or grain and such anymore but an embargo on that kills the Ukrainian autonomy if it's like it used to be.

Just last week they were saying US v  China was the new cold war: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/78920b2e-99ba-11e3-91cd-00144feab7de.html

Russia makes a much better foe.  China just sounds cheap, needs better PR people.

Those in power will do and say anything to keep the military budget high. Biggest welfare for the rich program there is.

Keeps the poor working, too.

Whats, funny is so many of the weapons in the US are still built where that Libby socialist FDR had things like TVA that provide lots of electricity built and I believe their was a similar project in Washington state.

Damn libby socialist and their infrastructure helping win wars.

Onward! Red brothers!


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
/And now the National anthem
//Vodak for everyone ; )
 
2014-03-01 10:22:41 PM  

vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: I thought they double bunked : )

It's called "hot-racking".

For a reason.

Oh my would there be video of this?
: )

I'm surprised there isn't an upload from some carrier or another by now. Tens of thousands of former enlisted and not one has a video of this?


Carriers are big, generally  no need to hot rack.  Submarines are small and secure, need for hotracks, no possibility to record a damned thing.
 
2014-03-01 10:24:35 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: iq_in_binary: rohar: iq_in_binary: This time there's troops on the ground and ground forces are amassing at the border. The provisional government of Ukraine has already invoked the Budapest Memorandum and many parties within their government have actively been calling for accession to Nuclear Weapon State, and our failure to recognize sections 1, 2, 3, and 6 of the Budapest Memorandum gives them standing to do so.

I would suggest that last section is utter and complete bullshiat.  As of this point, we've acted incomplete accord with the Budapest Memorandum.  Suggesting we haven't is wishing it read something that it does not.

That said, Russia was a signatory as well.  In any multilateral treaty, when one party breaks the rules, the treaty is over.  Even if we were bound to act, a signatory breached it before we could.  We're off the hook and can make any decision we damned well please.

Then we have absolutely no leg to stand on telling non NWS states that they can't develop nuclear weapons. Nuclear Estonia! YAY!

We never did but we didn't let that stop us. The International Court has not appointed the US as Sheriff and many debate it's standing.


The International Court only has teeth when everybody respects it. If the NPT goes up in smoke, so does the UN. No UN? No ICJ.

That's not what we want to happen. That's now what anybody wants to happen, including Russia.
 
2014-03-01 10:24:39 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: iq_in_binary: rohar: iq_in_binary: This time there's troops on the ground and ground forces are amassing at the border. The provisional government of Ukraine has already invoked the Budapest Memorandum and many parties within their government have actively been calling for accession to Nuclear Weapon State, and our failure to recognize sections 1, 2, 3, and 6 of the Budapest Memorandum gives them standing to do so.

I would suggest that last section is utter and complete bullshiat.  As of this point, we've acted incomplete accord with the Budapest Memorandum.  Suggesting we haven't is wishing it read something that it does not.

That said, Russia was a signatory as well.  In any multilateral treaty, when one party breaks the rules, the treaty is over.  Even if we were bound to act, a signatory breached it before we could.  We're off the hook and can make any decision we damned well please.

Then we have absolutely no leg to stand on telling non NWS states that they can't develop nuclear weapons. Nuclear Estonia! YAY!

We never did but we didn't let that stop us. The International Court has not appointed the US as Sheriff and many debate it's standing.


Sure we do. Just like any community can decide, like we in the U.S. have, that if you're batshiat insane you can't buy a firearm. The community of nations have decided that they're going to do some limited amount to prevent the idiots from getting nukes.

And, frankly, nukes are a really hard problem. 1) They're kind of hard to make; 2) They're preposterously expensive to maintain; 3) Without assured second-strike capability, you're actually making the possibility of nuclear war with a nuclear neighbor quite high; 4) once you have the nuclear tiger by the tail, can you really let go? The only nation to disarm did so for purely racist reasons. (I don't count Ukraine.)

So when everyone who had to actually DEAL with those problems decided they're going to try to keep anyone else from getting them, it really wasn't for purely selfish reasons.

/Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia did not want nukes and haven't a way to ensure second-strike capability, making them very dangerous.
//Ukraine probably didn't want to pay the cost.
 
2014-03-01 10:25:39 PM  
It will end just fine as long as Russia doesn't push too far north.

Geesh.  It's not like Crimea are full of ethnic Russians or something....
 
2014-03-01 10:26:37 PM  
Russia has made their move.  Now it is up to the Ukraine to respond.  Do they push their military to the east to challenge Russia and prevent any other regions from being annexed?  Not directly confronting the forces in Crimea but contesting what is going on and potentially provoking Russia into a conflict.  It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario as doing nothing may mean losing more of the eastern portion of Ukraine, but pushing forward could cause an armed struggle that Ukraine can't win and could lose everything.
 
2014-03-01 10:26:53 PM  

rohar: vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: I thought they double bunked : )

It's called "hot-racking".

For a reason.

Oh my would there be video of this?
: )

I'm surprised there isn't an upload from some carrier or another by now. Tens of thousands of former enlisted and not one has a video of this?

Carriers are big, generally  no need to hot rack.  Submarines are small and secure, need for hotracks, no possibility to record a damned thing.


The hot-action happens a lot on carriers. It's done despite the lack of necessity. Although, to be fair, a CVN isn't exactly swimming in berthing. Otherwise, my Lt. Cmdr. equivalent wouldn't have landed me in enlisted like it always did.
 
2014-03-01 10:27:36 PM  

vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: I thought they double bunked : )

It's called "hot-racking".

For a reason.

Oh my would there be video of this?
: )

I'm surprised there isn't an upload from some carrier or another by now. Tens of thousands of former enlisted and not one has a video of this?


Well I seen lots of movies of guys in army camo have happy fun time but no sailers and those Russian sailors in the blue and white tank tops look really like the could be that kind of friends but I sure its not gay to them : )
 
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