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(Special Broadcasting Service)   Ukraine: Hey there NATO. Say, you guys remember that wacky treaty we signed in 1994 where you promised to defend us if we were attacked in exchange for us giving up our nukes? Yeah, funny thing, never thought we actually need that, but   (sbs.com.au ) divider line
    More: Scary, NATO, Ukraine, interim leader, Viktor Yanukovych, Russian forces  
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15793 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Feb 2014 at 1:50 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-28 04:21:56 PM  

vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: Well I'm sure the UK will be into going into Crimea again.

They won the last time they went.


True but back then they were willing to do a lot for access the the Russian fur trade.
 
2014-02-28 04:22:05 PM  
Why do Americans think the Russians are scary?  You might lack the political will to use it effectively but given a good enough reason there is no current force on the planet that could withstand the amount of fark you that a single branch of the US military could dish out let alone all of them.  American air assets can dominate the airspace of any combat region almost indefinitely and you have the strike capability to reduce the effective numbers of any opposing force to almost nothing long before you even bother to put boots on the ground.  The asymmetric warfare and pants on head stupid ROE that you had to deal with in Iraq and Afghanistan would not be an issue in a conflict with Russia.
 
2014-02-28 04:22:18 PM  

Magorn: vygramul: netcentric: France is tied up in Central Africa
UK is... well, the UK.   They aren't going to do anything if they can't ride the US's coattails.
US is war weary and broke.


Russia...   I believe you could take that as a green light.

Russia's army is down to about 700,000, most of whom are virtually useless conscripts, and most of the non-craptastic units are really aimed at Georgia and Chechnya. If Ukraine has any kind of fighting force, Russia could find itself really rolling the dice on this becoming an expensive embarrassment with the potential to be so economically damaging to them that it would make the Iraq War look like it was in the bargain bin.

I don't put anything past the Russians, but they're easily as capable to stumbling into another Vietnam Afghanistan 1980 Afghanistan 2002.

Not to Godwin, but the Wermacht was crap in 1936 to and the troops were given orders to retreat and NOT engage any French or British troops if challenged in the Sudetenlands


No, that's not a Godwin. That's a legitimate historical discussion.

And it's accurate. If Ukraine backs down, obviously they lose even to crap like what the Russians have. I recall that, according to Shirer, the Germans went to look at the Czech forts and just about crapped their pants and realized that had even the Czechs fought, they would have made Lon Nol look like General Guderian.
 
2014-02-28 04:22:27 PM  
Congratulations, Ukraine, on becoming part of the Creek Confederacy.
 
2014-02-28 04:22:59 PM  

uber humper: vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: Well I'm sure the UK will be into going into Crimea again.

They won the last time they went.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 344x344]

Only becuase they had Eddie.

"The Trooper"

You'll take my life but I'll take yours too
You'll fire your musket but I'll run you through
So when you're waiting for the next attack
You'd better stand there's no turning back.

The Bugle sounds and the charge begins
But on this battlefield no one wins
The smell of acrid smoke and horses breath
As I plunge on into certain death.

The horse he sweats with fear we break to run
The mighty roar of the Russian guns
And as we race towards the human wall
The screams of pain as my comrades fall.

We hurdle bodies that lay on the ground
And the Russians fire another round
We get so near yet so far away
We won't live to fight another day.

We get so close near enough to fight
When a Russian gets me in his sights
He pulls the trigger and I feel the blow
A burst of rounds take my horse below.

And as I lay there gazing at the sky
My body's numb and my throat is dry
And as I lay forgotten and alone
Without a tear I draw my parting groan.


I feel 13 again all of a sudden : )
 
2014-02-28 04:23:36 PM  

netcentric: vygramul: netcentric: France is tied up in Central Africa
UK is... well, the UK.   They aren't going to do anything if they can't ride the US's coattails.
US is war weary and broke.


Russia...   I believe you could take that as a green light.

Russia's army is down to about 700,000, most of whom are virtually useless conscripts, and most of the non-craptastic units are really aimed at Georgia and Chechnya. If Ukraine has any kind of fighting force, Russia could find itself really rolling the dice on this becoming an expensive embarrassment with the potential to be so economically damaging to them that it would make the Iraq War look like it was in the bargain bin.

I don't put anything past the Russians, but they're easily as capable to stumbling into another Vietnam Afghanistan 1980 Afghanistan 2002.

Meh.... This is nothing.     Not anything remotely close to a V-nam or Afcrapitstan.

This is a little bit of political posturing and turmoil that will end wilth nary a drop of Vodka spilled.

The only thing it is..... is a chance for Russia to flex a bit.


I agree that this is the likely outcome. I was just saying what it could easily turn into should this evolve into a shooting war complete with Russian occupation of Ukraine.
 
2014-02-28 04:23:44 PM  

rev. dave: So... how long till we restart the cold war?  Or maybe skip that and go straight to surface of the sun war.



The sun is burning in the sky
Strands of clouds go slowly drifting by
In the park the lazy bees
Are dronin' in the flowers, among the trees
And the sun burns in the sky

Now the sun is in the West
Little kids go home to take their rest
And the couples in the park
Are holdin' hands and waitin' for the dark
And the sun is in the West

Now the sun is sinking low
Children playin' know it's time to go
High above a spot appears
A little blossom blooms and then draws near
And the sun is sinking low

Now the sun has come to Earth
Shrouded in a mushroom cloud of death
Death comes in a blinding flash
Of hellish heat and leaves a smear of ash
And the sun has come to Earth

Now the sun has disappeared
All is darkness, anger, pain and fear
Twisted, sightless wrecks of men
Go groping on their knees and cry in pain
And the sun has disappeared


/The Sun Is Burning always left me with chills due to the creepy turn the song takes .
 
2014-02-28 04:27:50 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: uber humper: vygramul: tinfoil-hat maggie: Well I'm sure the UK will be into going into Crimea again.

They won the last time they went.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 344x344]

Only becuase they had Eddie.

"The Trooper"

You'll take my life but I'll take yours too
You'll fire your musket but I'll run you through
So when you're waiting for the next attack
You'd better stand there's no turning back.

The Bugle sounds and the charge begins
But on this battlefield no one wins
The smell of acrid smoke and horses breath
As I plunge on into certain death.

The horse he sweats with fear we break to run
The mighty roar of the Russian guns
And as we race towards the human wall
The screams of pain as my comrades fall.

We hurdle bodies that lay on the ground
And the Russians fire another round
We get so near yet so far away
We won't live to fight another day.

We get so close near enough to fight
When a Russian gets me in his sights
He pulls the trigger and I feel the blow
A burst of rounds take my horse below.

And as I lay there gazing at the sky
My body's numb and my throat is dry
And as I lay forgotten and alone
Without a tear I draw my parting groan.

I feel 13 again all of a sudden : )


You were 13 durring the Crimean war?  Getting kinda long in tooth, huh ;)
 
2014-02-28 04:28:15 PM  

Egoy3k: Why do Americans think the Russians are scary?  You might lack the political will to use it effectively but given a good enough reason there is no current force on the planet that could withstand the amount of fark you that a single branch of the US military could dish out let alone all of them.  American air assets can dominate the airspace of any combat region almost indefinitely and you have the strike capability to reduce the effective numbers of any opposing force to almost nothing long before you even bother to put boots on the ground.  The asymmetric warfare and pants on head stupid ROE that you had to deal with in Iraq and Afghanistan would not be an issue in a conflict with Russia.


1) Fighting a "real" war would be expensive -- more so than past skirmishes by orders of magnitude.
2) The US has never fought a nuclear-armed opponent, and Russia has more nukes than any other country on the planet (and well-developed delivery systems).  They're also controlled by a Joe Stalin wannabe, which is not exactly reassuring.
 
2014-02-28 04:29:28 PM  
nickerj1:

Here's why Russia is so interested in what is going on:
[www.zerohedge.com image 600x545]

Factor in that Oil is Russia's #1 money maker (it accounts for >50% of their revenue).  50 farking percent. That's huuuuge.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/02/uk-russia-oil-idUKBREA010GA 20 140102

If they lose control of their access to the EU, they could be in serious trouble.



Alex,
img.fark.net
i'll take "Hooked" for $1000.oo


Speaking of which;

http://wordpress.com/2013/02/14/russia-iran-sign-agreements-to-form-s t rategic-partnership-as-russia-sends-warships-to-iranian-port/

This current conflict is minor,
The 'other one' is Major
 
2014-02-28 04:31:06 PM  

jshine: 2) The US has never fought a nuclear-armed opponent, and Russia has more nukes than any other country on the planet (and well-developed delivery systems). They're also controlled by a Joe Stalin wannabe, which is not exactly reassuring.


And they broke the 1987 medium range nuke treaty in 2008, soon after Obama took office.
 
2014-02-28 04:36:13 PM  
media.tumblr.com

It's getting a little tense in here.
 
2014-02-28 04:41:33 PM  

tom baker's scarf: beefoe: We'll at least Harold Ramis can save them!

[www.morethings.com image 308x465]

well not any more, which is what the ruskies were waiting for.


It is an interesting coincidence that he died just a few days ago.  Or is it?
 
2014-02-28 04:42:54 PM  

Egoy3k: Why do Americans think the Russians are scary?  You might lack the political will to use it effectively but given a good enough reason there is no current force on the planet that could withstand the amount of fark you that a single branch of the US military could dish out let alone all of them.  American air assets can dominate the airspace of any combat region almost indefinitely and you have the strike capability to reduce the effective numbers of any opposing force to almost nothing long before you even bother to put boots on the ground.  The asymmetric warfare and pants on head stupid ROE that you had to deal with in Iraq and Afghanistan would not be an issue in a conflict with Russia.


Just because we can dominate a small country with 1970's era technology doesn't mean that a large country with a lot of 1980's era technology would be a walk in the park. And the Russians were watching when one of our stealths got shot down in Bosnia. They know how to do it.

We have some nice new drones and combat software, but most of our military hardware is just updated 1980's stuff itself. Our tanks, most of our planes, our rifles, all Cold War tech. We don't have enough F-22's or any F-35's in service yet to make a difference. Our supply lines would be stretched across the globe, Russia's would stretch across the street. Russia is not without advantages in this hypothetical conflict.

Plus we continue to have military commitments that keep us from deploying all of our forces to Eastern Europe. We have to maintain quite a presence in the Pacific to keep China and NK from getting funny ideas and a similar presence in the Middle East to have a similar effect on Iran. We have one of the biggest militaries, but it is spread thin.
 
2014-02-28 04:44:02 PM  

CleanAndPure: Russia has sent troops. Military jets and helicopters(and by some reports tanks) into Crimea without Ukraine's approval. That is a mini invasion.


not.

Sevastopol is a MAJOR port for Russia. They've got 50k naval personnel there, and have for years. In addition to navy, supporting troops like their version of marines with all the attendant support material- tanks, jets helocopters. Yes Russia has sent troops but has been for years now with full support of the Ukraine government (Russia pays them for use of the land/ports)

Don't forget that Crimea is primarily ethnically Russian people (close to %60) They dont' speak Ukranian, they speak Russian.
 
2014-02-28 04:46:54 PM  

cgraves67: Just because we can dominate a small country with 1970's era technology doesn't mean that a large country with a lot of 1980's era technology would be a walk in the park. And the Russians were watching when one of our stealths got shot down in Bosnia. They know how to do it.


They knew how to take advantage of stupid operational planning by our Air Force long before the Serbs shot down the F-117. The plane didn't fail. The soft bigotry of low expectations in assuming those backwards Serbs were too stupid to think of how to do it is what failed us.
 
2014-02-28 04:48:32 PM  

JK47: youmightberight: Well, farkme... I thought the brits held off on mothballing the Invincible-class carriers till the Elizabeth class hits (2018 time frame?) as for 3rd ACR looks like it is still kicking as a heavy cav unit and with all the new goodies we have. From Global Security (most recent history)

"The Regiment arrived at Fort Hood with almost no equipment. The primary combat systems, the M1 Abrams and M3 Bradleys, had been left in Kuwait when the Regiment was redeploying. Thus began an intensive effort to outfit 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment with all of the newest gear the Army had to offer. Starting in September, 2nd Squadron fielded the first M1A2 SEP Version 2 tanks. In October 2006, Sabre Squadron also received the Regiment's first M3A3 Block 2 Cavalry Fighting Vehicles.
In March 2007, the Regiment was fully equipped with its 123 tanks and 125 Bradleys. In addition to these critical platforms, 4th Squadron had been completely outfitted with the latest AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopters, with its 3 troops replacing the previous 3 Troops of OH-58D Kiowa Warriors. The Regiment subsequently completed the fielding and certification of its indirect fire assets, both M109A6 Paladin and M1064A3 120mm mortar systems. The Regiment was as lethal as ever before, ready to tackle the missions ahead."


They completed their conversion in 2012 (link)


Well fark. I'm saddened by this and also a bit baffled... why are we always gearing up to fight the last war?
 
2014-02-28 04:48:38 PM  
 
2014-02-28 04:52:41 PM  

vygramul: cgraves67: Just because we can dominate a small country with 1970's era technology doesn't mean that a large country with a lot of 1980's era technology would be a walk in the park. And the Russians were watching when one of our stealths got shot down in Bosnia. They know how to do it.

They knew how to take advantage of stupid operational planning by our Air Force long before the Serbs shot down the F-117. The plane didn't fail. The soft bigotry of low expectations in assuming those backwards Serbs were too stupid to think of how to do it is what failed us.


That's my point with that particular statement. There is a specific way that RADAR can be set up around a flight path that a stealth plane could be detected from a different angle. They figured it out and shot down a plane. Once the Serbs proved it was possible, there's no way the Russians wouldn't reverse engineer the scenario to figure out how to do it too.

Our mistake was continuously using the same flight path over and over, allowing them to anticipate us and rearrange their SAMs and RADAR stations accordingly.
 
2014-02-28 04:54:13 PM  
Anyone want to take odds on Obama's position?
 
2014-02-28 04:54:51 PM  

uber humper: Anyone want to take odds on Obama's position?


regarding his upcomming statement
 
2014-02-28 04:56:20 PM  

uber humper: Anyone want to take odds on Obama's position?


Well, given his position on Georgia, Iran and Syria--I'm gonna say nothing more than a strongly-worded statement issued from the 7th hole.
 
2014-02-28 04:56:24 PM  

cgraves67: vygramul: cgraves67: Just because we can dominate a small country with 1970's era technology doesn't mean that a large country with a lot of 1980's era technology would be a walk in the park. And the Russians were watching when one of our stealths got shot down in Bosnia. They know how to do it.

They knew how to take advantage of stupid operational planning by our Air Force long before the Serbs shot down the F-117. The plane didn't fail. The soft bigotry of low expectations in assuming those backwards Serbs were too stupid to think of how to do it is what failed us.

That's my point with that particular statement. There is a specific way that RADAR can be set up around a flight path that a stealth plane could be detected from a different angle. They figured it out and shot down a plane. Once the Serbs proved it was possible, there's no way the Russians wouldn't reverse engineer the scenario to figure out how to do it too.

Our mistake was continuously using the same flight path over and over, allowing them to anticipate us and rearrange their SAMs and RADAR stations accordingly.


It did require a little luck, too, but without using the same flight path (a mistake we're less likely to make with the Russians because we're less apt to underestimate them (rather, overestimate - just look at this thread)), they don't know where to put the radar.
 
2014-02-28 04:58:06 PM  

Almost Everybody Poops: http://news.yahoo.com/2-000-russian-soldiers-land-armed-invasion-crim e a-202159123.html;_ylt=AwrBJR.i8BBTI2MA9wXQtDMD


..... no no no. Come the fark on world stop acting crazy I just got my new Audi S4 and I want to enjoy it.
 
2014-02-28 04:58:45 PM  

BravadoGT: uber humper: Anyone want to take odds on Obama's position?

Well, given his position on Georgia, Iran and Syria--I'm gonna say nothing more than a strongly-worded statement issued from the 7th hole.


Gay marriage.  That's what he will say
 
2014-02-28 04:59:09 PM  

uber humper: Anyone want to take odds on Obama's position?


He's giving a press conference today soon. We will find out shortly.
 
2014-02-28 04:59:33 PM  
CNN just said USINT thinks Russia has invaded.
 
2014-02-28 05:06:29 PM  
President McCain or President Romney would have already sent the troops in, amirite?
 
2014-02-28 05:14:29 PM  
Gotta be honest, if we get involved it will probably be on Russia's side.  The treaty was a guarantee that we wouldn't blow them up, not that we would save them from themselves being stupid.  If Russia can't sell oil, they get desperate, and the price of oil goes up everywhere.

Ukraine may have a beef, but either you like Russia in this one or you like to pay $2 more a gallon in gas
 
2014-02-28 05:18:03 PM  

youmightberight: JK47: youmightberight: Well, farkme... I thought the brits held off on mothballing the Invincible-class carriers till the Elizabeth class hits (2018 time frame?) as for 3rd ACR looks like it is still kicking as a heavy cav unit and with all the new goodies we have. From Global Security (most recent history)

"The Regiment arrived at Fort Hood with almost no equipment. The primary combat systems, the M1 Abrams and M3 Bradleys, had been left in Kuwait when the Regiment was redeploying. Thus began an intensive effort to outfit 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment with all of the newest gear the Army had to offer. Starting in September, 2nd Squadron fielded the first M1A2 SEP Version 2 tanks. In October 2006, Sabre Squadron also received the Regiment's first M3A3 Block 2 Cavalry Fighting Vehicles.
In March 2007, the Regiment was fully equipped with its 123 tanks and 125 Bradleys. In addition to these critical platforms, 4th Squadron had been completely outfitted with the latest AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopters, with its 3 troops replacing the previous 3 Troops of OH-58D Kiowa Warriors. The Regiment subsequently completed the fielding and certification of its indirect fire assets, both M109A6 Paladin and M1064A3 120mm mortar systems. The Regiment was as lethal as ever before, ready to tackle the missions ahead."


They completed their conversion in 2012 (link)

Well fark. I'm saddened by this and also a bit baffled... why are we always gearing up to fight the last war?


Because nobody knows for sure what the NEXT war will be and sure as hell nobody wants to be ready to fight EVERY war that might come along. You plan for likely possibilities. We were well equipped to go up against Russia in another WWII style large unit war and ran up against something very different in Vietnam. We were equipped well for the Gulf War I, but we weren't well equipped for fighting in Afghanistan. We have since retooled for smaller unit anti-insurgent type fighting, but that leaves us poorly equipped if we might possibly need to go up against Russia. All those snarky pictures of stealth bombers and aircraft carriers with the label "Not particularly useful against an insurgency"? Yeah, now we have a force that IS, but that means the things that would be particularly useful in other forms of combat have taken the hit.

We spend massive amounts of money on our military and even we can't be prepared for anything and everything in any possible place on the globe. It can be done, but not even for what we're spending now... which is way beyond everybody else.
 
2014-02-28 05:23:45 PM  

Magorn: This was expanded into the Triple Entente


If you know what I mean.
 
2014-02-28 05:26:30 PM  

Alien Robot: when Yugoslavia was split up?


I'm not sure Yugoslavia is a good example of he upside of splitting up a country, unless you consider ethnic cleansing to be an upside.
 
2014-02-28 05:35:02 PM  

Alien Robot: Czechoslovakia was split up?


Alien Robot: Yugoslavia was split up



Nice consistency. I'm upgrading you from 3/10 to 5/10
 
2014-02-28 05:36:31 PM  

Lehk: Alien Robot: when Yugoslavia was split up?

I'm not sure Yugoslavia is a good example of he upside of splitting up a country, unless you consider ethnic cleansing to be an upside.


Not to nitpick, but you could make a small argument when Slovenia declared independence*.

*-I know people died, but nowhere near the scale of the rest of the Land of the South Slavs.

/I get what you're saying though
 
2014-02-28 05:37:23 PM  

Magorn: In 1879 Bismarck concluded the Dual Alliance, a mutual defense pact with Austria-Hungary. He expanded this agreement in 1882 to include Italy, forming the Triple Alliance.
Bismarck realized that an alliance between France and Russia would be a fundamental threat to German security because in the event of war with either power Germany would be forced to fight on two fronts. Bismarck arranged the Emperors' Alliance (1881) and the Reinsurance Treaty (1887) with Russia, agreements that guaranteed Russian neutrality in the event of a Franco-German conflict.

To offset the threat of the Triple Alliance, France and Russia formed their own Dual Alliance in 1894. France also improved relations with Great Britain by entering into an informal understanding with the British known as the Entente Cordiale (1904). This was expanded into the Triple Entente in 1907 with the inclusion of Russia.

thanks mr. Peabody for the history lesson. now if you'll kindly set the way back machine to 2014. you can explain what this has to do with the price of vodka in Moscow.

 
2014-02-28 05:49:17 PM  
You know what could help this situation...  if warmonger John McCain could get on CNN and such and start spewing some cold war rhetoric about how bad Russia is.

Surely that would help.
 
2014-02-28 05:51:13 PM  
This... this isn't good. o_o'
 
2014-02-28 05:53:24 PM  
No greenlit thread about this yet?


Seems news-flash worthy
 
2014-02-28 06:22:54 PM  
forums.rennlist.com
 
2014-02-28 06:23:04 PM  

uber humper: BravadoGT: uber humper: Anyone want to take odds on Obama's position?

Well, given his position on Georgia, Iran and Syria--I'm gonna say nothing more than a strongly-worded statement issued from the 7th hole.

Gay marriage.  That's what he will say


img.fark.net
"The Russians just need a little elbow room to expand...you know, lebensraum.  Now if you'll excuse me, I have an 8 A.M. tee time in Key West I need to get ready for."
 
2014-02-28 06:28:59 PM  

tinyarena: mbillips:
Those are BTR-80s, which are the equivalent of American Strykers. Not obsolete at all. Better than the Bradley in some ways. Drones can take out most tanks; that's what the Hellfire missile was originally designed for.

Nope, sorry, scroll through the pictures moar, based on the egg shape of their forward hatches, those are BTR-70s
And they really were built in the 1960s

Slow, cramped, easy to kill
meh


Yep, the Afghanis had no problem taking them out with IEDs and RPG-7s
 
2014-02-28 06:32:04 PM  
Not this zhit again.

Peeps, how many times are you going to be fooled by the fools fooling fools with foolish foolery.

And for this, business as usual, Forever War.
 
2014-02-28 06:33:32 PM  

Eggs McMuffin: [forums.rennlist.com image 500x222]


http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140130/187029570/Russia-to-Float-Ou t- Stealth-Sub-for-Black-Sea-Fleet-in-May.html
Russia does have a stealth sub. And a second by May
 
2014-02-28 06:44:08 PM  

uber humper: Eggs McMuffin: [forums.rennlist.com image 500x222]

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140130/187029570/Russia-to-Float-Ou t- Stealth-Sub-for-Black-Sea-Fleet-in-May.html
Russia does have a stealth sub. And a second by May


ctrl-f "first strike"

Not found.

Excellent! The article wasn't written by a complete imbecile! It might be interesting!
 
2014-02-28 06:47:05 PM  

mbillips: tinyarena: [media.washtimes.com image 630x365]
Oh please, is this a joke picture? It's hard to get too worked up about this.
Those APCs were scary, in 1965.
These days we could take them out with drones. I guess we have to take them seriously, but it hard.

Those are BTR-80s, which are the equivalent of American Strykers. Not obsolete at all. Better than the Bradley in some ways. Drones can take out most tanks; that's what the Hellfire missile was originally designed for.


www.inetres.com
o hai guize!
 
2014-02-28 06:58:45 PM  

fireclown: Odoriferous Queef: Voiceofreason01: There are reports that Russian tanks are rolling into Crimea, which makes this a very different situation.

[citation needed]

/I can't find anything about this on the net

I agree.  That kind of statement at least warrants a link.


How about seven links?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/28/russia-invades-crime a- sends-armored-personnel-carr/

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/140228/video- on -the-ground-crimea-ukraine-russia-tanks-armed-men

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-26/roads-crimea-quiet-russian- mo bilization-continues

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ukraine-news-russia-invades- cr imea-3194129

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-28/creeping-russia-takeover-in -c rimea-seen-more-likely-than-assault.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-deploys-ships-troops-ukraines-crimea -r aising-tensions-1437762

http://belsec.skynetblogs.be/archive/2014/02/28/kiev-russian-helicop te rs-intimidating-in-crimea-8120186.html

and an eighth: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/27/world/europe/russia.html?hpw&rref=w o rld&_r=0

The NY Times specifically notes that the Russian "military exercises" in Crimea were previously unplanned (I believe the wording used by the Times is "snap" exercises intending to display Russia's power) and did not begin until after the coup d'etat which removed pro-Russian Yanukovych from power and has seen him charged with crimes by the interim government.

If you're not seeing links referring to Russian tanks and helicopters on the streets of and in the air over Crimea, it's because you haven't read a major news site today or you didn't bother using Google once the statement was made.
 
2014-02-28 07:05:28 PM  

Voiceofreason01: fireclown: Odoriferous Queef: Voiceofreason01: There are reports that Russian tanks are rolling into Crimea, which makes this a very different situation.

[citation needed]

/I can't find anything about this on the net

I agree.  That kind of statement at least warrants a link.

eh, I may have jumped the gun. It looks like it's just the one Washington Post article and the Russians are saying they're just moving forces in to secure their naval base.


And you believe that? Seriously?

Putin is many things. Stupid is not one of them. He is highly intelligent and extraordinarily cunning. If he is truly 'just protecting Russia's military bases in Ukraine,' then the United States was truly 'just interested in bringing democracy and freeing oppressed peoples' in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't agree with every Farker, but I don't believe there is a Farker who posts here who is that farking stupid, by any stretch of the imagination.
 
2014-02-28 07:14:48 PM  

LesserEvil: Grahor: LesserEvil: I say NATO should go in and wipe out those gunmen... Putin would lose face with his military, the Russians lose a ton of Spetznaz on a "disavowed" mission, and the Russian loyalists in the region suddenly get a lot meeker (and regional stability goes up).

Wait a second. You mean foreign troops, which were most explicitly NOT invited by local population, should invade the foreign country without a declaration of war and wipe out local civilian population (doesn't matter if they are or aren't; they would be local civilian population by the time you have finished executing them)?

And you feel it's a proper behavior?

And you think _Russians_ are evil?

I'm assuming the Ukraine asks for military intervention, at which point, we honor the treaty and give it to them.

Those aren't locals they'd be fighting, they're Russian military. Certainly not a cakewalk, but unless Russia is prepared to fully support them (logistics are still a thing, you know), they are toast if a multi-national force comes in.

I could care less what separatists think. That doesn't come into play with treaty obligations - the Ukraine is still the legal government, in the world's eyes.

Let Putin get away with this, and he'll take it to the next level. As others have mentioned, Crimea can't really stand alone and hostile to the Ukraine, anyway, but who knows what sort of play comes next?


and that's exactly the point: NATO cannot go in without an invitation--nor should they (or rather, let's face it: we). Given that the agreement was also signed by Russia, Russia has to be very careful not to be seen as the aggressor here--as do we.

This will be a saber-rattling exercise (which is exactly what Russia's "military exercise" is, by all accounts). Russia has to save face, we issue "don't do that" warnings, maybe fly over a couple places, everyone's pride is safe, and it will most likely come to a diplomatic solution in the end. I highly doubt either the US or Russia really wants to go to war with each other at the moment, but both need to posture a bit for the cameras.
 
2014-02-28 07:16:28 PM  
If anyone in the Ukraine honestly believed that the Germans, the French, the Italians and the Spanish were going to saddle up and ride against the Russians for the freedom of the Ukraine.... well, I'm not going to say they are getting what they deserved, but damn, those are some SHORT memories.
 
2014-02-28 07:24:14 PM  

uber humper: Anyone want to take odds on Obama's position?


He recently issued a statement to the effect of "Russia, don't be a dick." Threats of not going along with upcoming trade agreements, some kind of summit, etc. Also, that it would look really bad to start a war just days after the Olympics ended. Not that I think Russia cares much about public image, mind you.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-comments-on-ukraine-214813649.html
 
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