Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Washington Post)   Q: Why do charter schools have better results than public schools? A: They expel the problem students   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 258
    More: Obvious, charter schools, Chicago, academic record, school reform, Diane Ravitch, CPS  
•       •       •

2160 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Feb 2014 at 9:22 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



258 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all
 
2014-02-28 08:58:16 AM  
Damned straight!  The public school system is the catch all for the nation's loser kids.  The underperformers and problem cases no one else can take.

So you should give me your tax money so I can send my kid somewhere your kid can't go.
 
2014-02-28 09:15:46 AM  
Because charter schools are a business, and it's not profitable to spend the extra money to help a child that is struggling.
 
2014-02-28 09:16:36 AM  
I've been pointing this out about Chicago for years, which is exactly why the charters will never be able to expand beyond a certain point and can't be the panacea that their backers claim to be. There is an upper limit on the number possible if they keep this up, and therefore the public schools have to be invested in.
 
2014-02-28 09:24:38 AM  
Charter schools are only around because they can make some rich dude even richer. Their end goal is always going to be profit.
 
2014-02-28 09:25:44 AM  
they never take "tough cases" to begin with.  Public schools are required to take the public's children -- from 'rambunctious' to severely mentally handicapped.     Even at that, charters have a shiatty record at education, but a spectacular record of ripping the public off.
 
2014-02-28 09:26:56 AM  
What scares me are the all the religious nut charters popping up everywhere.
 
2014-02-28 09:27:47 AM  
So instead of parents failing them, now they have parents and schools fail them.

Great.
 
2014-02-28 09:28:05 AM  
They pillage and rape the general population, as opposed to limiting their asshattery to families with school age children.
 
2014-02-28 09:28:10 AM  
And even though a charter school can expel the under preforming children, they don't do better than public school.
 
2014-02-28 09:28:28 AM  

Diogenes: So you should give me your tax money so I can send my kid somewhere your kid can't go.


Nah, just do away with charters altogether and your kid can sit in class with the turds and learn at their speed.
 
2014-02-28 09:29:48 AM  
The more interesting question is what happens to kids who remain. Does removing problem children improve their experience and generate better overall results?
 
2014-02-28 09:30:04 AM  
Charter schools can result in superior outcomes for some students. However, they largely amount to a shifting of tax dollars from public schools to private pockets. More charter schools simply means those who aren't lucky enough to get into a charter school will fall further and further behind.
 
2014-02-28 09:31:46 AM  

coeyagi: Dancin_In_Anson: Diogenes: So you should give me your tax money so I can send my kid somewhere your kid can't go.

Nah, just do away with charters altogether and your kid can sit in class with the turds and learn at their speed.

Yeah, that's not how it works, at least in public schools that don't blow (meaning, they are supported with tax revenue).  But thanks for playing, herping, derping and chirping.


Yeah, you want to send you kid to private or parochial school?  Go right ahead.  Glad you can do that.  But don't ask me to pay for it.
 
2014-02-28 09:33:22 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Nah, just do away with charters altogether and your kid can sit in class with the turds and learn at their speed.


That's how it worked when I was growing up and we were able to put a man on the moon, cure polio and defeat communism.
 
2014-02-28 09:33:41 AM  
Leave publik schools alone. I went publik schools my hole youth and I'm more better for it.
 
2014-02-28 09:34:37 AM  
Even been in a class (in public school) where the teacher spends more time dealing with problem children than teaching?  Same shiat should happen in public school.  fark 'em, they bring down the rest of the class.
 
2014-02-28 09:34:38 AM  
No, the public schools just expel kids that have plastic silverware in their cars or pop tarts shaped like guns.
 
2014-02-28 09:35:09 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: They pillage and rape the general population, as opposed to limiting their asshattery to families with school age children.


Exactly.  Subby seems to think that expelling a child from school lets us all say "Problem solved, forever."

Expelling a child is easy and lazy.  Any idiot can do it.  Starting with a troubled child and getting him or her back on track is hard, and it's what educators are supposed to do.
 
2014-02-28 09:35:49 AM  

TheGreatGazoo: No, the public schools just expel kids that have plastic silverware in their cars or pop tarts shaped like guns.


Not in Chicago they don't. Expulsion requires real weapons.
 
2014-02-28 09:36:14 AM  
Since when do charter schools have better results than public schools?
 
2014-02-28 09:37:41 AM  

chimp_ninja: Marcus Aurelius: They pillage and rape the general population, as opposed to limiting their asshattery to families with school age children.

Exactly.  Subby seems to think that expelling a child from school lets us all say "Problem solved, forever."

Expelling a child is easy and lazy.  Any idiot can do it.  Starting with a troubled child and getting him or her back on track is hard, and it's what educators are supposed to do.


It's definitely a matter of "pay me now, or pay me later."
 
2014-02-28 09:37:56 AM  

naughtyrev: I've been pointing this out about Chicago for years, which is exactly why the charters will never be able to expand beyond a certain point and can't be the panacea that their backers claim to be. There is an upper limit on the number possible if they keep this up, and therefore the public schools have to be invested in.


Don't act like the goal is universal education.  You take your little morlock down to the salt mines and teach him a useful skill so this world will be a better place!
 
2014-02-28 09:39:07 AM  

chimp_ninja: Marcus Aurelius: They pillage and rape the general population, as opposed to limiting their asshattery to families with school age children.

Exactly.  Subby seems to think that expelling a child from school lets us all say "Problem solved, forever."

Expelling a child is easy and lazy.  Any idiot can do it.  Starting with a troubled child and getting him or her back on track is hard, and it's what educators are supposed to do.


The problem is it's at the expense of other children that aren't farkups.
 
2014-02-28 09:39:17 AM  

Muta: Dancin_In_Anson: Nah, just do away with charters altogether and your kid can sit in class with the turds and learn at their speed.

That's how it worked when I was growing up and we were able to put a man on the moon, cure polio and defeat communism.


It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows, though.  Pre-Great Society, high school graduation rates were significantly lower, particularly among African-Americans.

/I'd also love to know what the class size was at that time.
//we also had a lower population density in many school districts
///and a work force that allowed kids with limited education to get decent jobs in the manufacturing center
/Vperhaps its time we invested heavily in a form of schooling that wasn't centered around an agricultural calendar and industrial methods
 
2014-02-28 09:39:41 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Diogenes: So you should give me your tax money so I can send my kid somewhere your kid can't go.

Nah, just do away with charters altogether and your kid can sit in class with the turds and learn at their speed.


Yes. And as a result,  the quality of education for the population as a whole will improve.
 
2014-02-28 09:39:53 AM  

TheGreatGazoo: No, the public schools just expel kids that have plastic silverware in their cars or pop tarts shaped like guns.


Okay, kids. Point and laugh at the moron who can't even correctly recall the details of half assed "zero tolerance" stories.
 
2014-02-28 09:41:11 AM  
I'm not opposed to charter schools in principle -- it's interesting to see what innovative teaching practices, like "flipped classrooms", might come out of those schools. But the solution shouldn't be to turn all schools into charter schools, it should be to study what works at those schools and apply them across the public school system. And giving up on students for poor academic performance should never be an answer.
 
2014-02-28 09:41:41 AM  

ramblinwreck: Even been in a class (in public school) where the teacher spends more time dealing with problem children than teaching?  Same shiat should happen in public school.  fark 'em, they bring down the rest of the class.


That is a legitimate problem, but those kids have to go somewhere.  Ice floes aren't exactly common in Chicago, and you just know we'd get some calls if we started that up anyway.
 
2014-02-28 09:43:25 AM  

chimp_ninja: Marcus Aurelius: They pillage and rape the general population, as opposed to limiting their asshattery to families with school age children.

Exactly.  Subby seems to think that expelling a child from school lets us all say "Problem solved, forever."

Expelling a child is easy and lazy.  Any idiot can do it.  Starting with a troubled child and getting him or her back on track is hard, and it's what educators are supposed to do.


No, I don't. The entire point of the headline was that the better (questionably defined) results are because they can choose the students they deal with.

/Subby
 
2014-02-28 09:43:30 AM  

Wendy's Chili: Since when do charter schools have better results than public schools?

Some

charter schools have better results than the average public school.

Of course, some public schools also have better results than the average public school.
 
2014-02-28 09:44:16 AM  
This is a very valid point. Just culling the bottom 5%, lets say, the troublemakers, can greatly improve results not just by improving the average quality of student but also by taking away the distractions of the troublemakers, improving achievement for the 95%.

Id agree that the ability of private schools and charters to kick out the worst of the lot contributes more to any improved performance than other differences in the model, skewing comparisons with public schools.

The core problem with underperforming public schools isn't lack of funding (like liberals claim) or lazy teachers (like conservatives claim), its inferior raw materials. GIGO.
 
2014-02-28 09:44:36 AM  

The Madd Mann: Dancin_In_Anson: Diogenes: So you should give me your tax money so I can send my kid somewhere your kid can't go.

Nah, just do away with charters altogether and your kid can sit in class with the turds and learn at their speed.

Yes. And as a result,  the quality of education for the population as a whole will improve.


But don't you get it. His little snowflake will cure cancer with nothing but his bootstraps if he doesn't have to sit by the kid from the blah side of town.
 
2014-02-28 09:44:49 AM  

qorkfiend: Charter schools can result in superior outcomes for some students. However, they largely amount to a shifting of tax dollars from public schools to private pockets. More charter schools simply means those who aren't lucky enough to get into a charter school will fall further and further behind.


And that's bad because?

Listen, there will *ALWAYS* be people who are smarter and who catch on quicker, and those who don't.

We can argue until we are blue in the face about the reasons for that, but it doesn't change the fact that some kids will learn faster than others.  It's an uncomfortable fact of life, just like some people will be better athletes, or better artists, or better speakers.  We are all equal as human beings, but that doesn't mean we are all equal in our abilities.

But if that bothers you, why not set up a charter school to specifically deal with the hard cases and slow learners?  I'm sure that people with a child that is falling behind will jump at the chance to send their kid to a school where they will be given the extra attention they need.

In fact, I could see this being a benefit to the system as a whole:  Send the top 10% to the charter school for the gifted, the 80% majority of students in the public school system, and the bottom 10% to the charter school for those with special needs.  Everybody wins:  The gifted kids don't get bored*, the majority do well because the disruptions are minimized, and those that need extra attention get it.  Win-win-win.

*Yeah, this is a problem.  Trust me.  We didn't have such a program at my high school, and as a result, I and a couple of my peers set about figuring out how to gain access to every nook and cranny of the school.  And we succeeded.  Rather quickly, in fact.
 
2014-02-28 09:46:45 AM  

You're the jerk... jerk: Does removing problem children improve their experience and generate better overall results?


Wendy's Chili: Since when do charter schools have better results than public schools?



They studied this here in WI a couple years ago, and there was no difference in outcomes between charters and regular old public schools.
 
2014-02-28 09:47:01 AM  

Arkanaut: Wendy's Chili: Since when do charter schools have better results than public schools?

Some charter schools have better results than the average public school.

Of course, some public schools also have better results than the average public school.


Once again, when you have the option of selectivity, you open up a whole new realm of 'manipulation of the data'.  I will support the public funding of private schools if...AND ONLY IF selectivity is eliminated from the equation.  Make them take all comers and remove their ability to expel under-performing students.  Expulsion should ONLY be reserved for kids who present a clear and present danger to those around them.
 
2014-02-28 09:48:27 AM  

phaseolus: You're the jerk... jerk: Does removing problem children improve their experience and generate better overall results?

Wendy's Chili: Since when do charter schools have better results than public schools?


They studied this here in WI a couple years ago, and there was no difference in outcomes between charters and regular old public schools.


Except in campaign donations to Gov Walker's re-election
 
2014-02-28 09:48:40 AM  

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: The entire point of the headline was that the better (questionably defined) results are because they can choose the students they deal with.


That's certainly the implication of the article, but that's just not accurate.  Nothing in the article said the outcome differentials are accounted for by the disparity in expulsion statistics.  In fact, the casual attitude that the expulsion rates are relevant at all suggests they could do the math, but they haven't done so.  Which means to my skeptical eye that the math doesn't bear out what they're trying to say.

And by the way, it's not as though so-called public schools can't "choose the students they deal with" if that means expelling people.  They do expel people, just (in this case) fewer of them.  So maybe that's just a mistake the public schools are making?
 
2014-02-28 09:49:01 AM  

techgeek07: What scares me are the all the religious nut charters popping up everywhere.


Why be scared by that? If you have kids, push them to go into one of the STEM fields, the kids taught in religious schools won't be able to compete, since their version of science class consists of reading the Bible and concluding that everything in the universe happens because Jesus. Social Darwinism will resolve this issue eventually, in the meantime, non-stupid/crazy parents can give their kids a leg up on the competition.
 
2014-02-28 09:50:10 AM  

Muta: Dancin_In_Anson: Nah, just do away with charters altogether and your kid can sit in class with the turds and learn at their speed.

That's how it worked when I was growing up and we were able to put a man on the moon, cure polio and defeat communism.


Mine too, but back then they could send all the disruptive students off to Industrial Arts, Auto Shop, and "Business Math" for the hard classes, now with No Child Left Behind, those students have to take and disrupt Algebra II and Biology which makes those classes learn at a slower rate.  Also since funding is tied to the tests all the teach is how to pass the tests.

/Dump NCLB, fire up the Vocational classes again, and education will improve.
 
2014-02-28 09:50:12 AM  

A Cave Geek: Expulsion should ONLY be reserved for kids who present a clear and present danger to those around them.


No, if they are constantly negatively impacting the education of those around them they have to go.
 
2014-02-28 09:51:14 AM  

Arkanaut: Wendy's Chili: Since when do charter schools have better results than public schools?

Some charter schools have better results than the average public school.

Of course, some public schools also have better results than the average public school.


I can't speak about other districts, but in Chicago the charters do not outperform the public schools.
 
2014-02-28 09:52:37 AM  

Garet Garrett: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: The entire point of the headline was that the better (questionably defined) results are because they can choose the students they deal with.

That's certainly the implication of the article, but that's just not accurate.  Nothing in the article said the outcome differentials are accounted for by the disparity in expulsion statistics.  In fact, the casual attitude that the expulsion rates are relevant at all suggests they could do the math, but they haven't done so.  Which means to my skeptical eye that the math doesn't bear out what they're trying to say.

And by the way, it's not as though so-called public schools can't "choose the students they deal with" if that means expelling people.  They do expel people, just (in this case) fewer of them.  So maybe that's just a mistake the public schools are making?


But if one public school expels a student, another one has to pick him up, right? So Eastside high school expels 14-year old John for spitting at a teacher. He now is transferred to Westside High (while being replaced at east side by an expellee from the other school).

The kid doesn't just sit at home for the rest of his childhood. At least that is my understanding.
 
2014-02-28 09:53:24 AM  
When I was in grade school, graduated high school in '81, the US public school system was one of the best in the world.  Around the mid 80's I started hearing about 'charter schools' and how competition and school choice would result if schools improving.  Since then charter schools have popped up all over the place and are quite common.  Unfortunately the education of our children is mid-pack compared to the rest of the developed nations.  On what day will we start seeing all the great improvements to education promised by 'charter schools'?
 
2014-02-28 09:53:39 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Diogenes: So you should give me your tax money so I can send my kid somewhere your kid can't go.

Nah, just do away with charters altogether and your kid can sit in class with the turds and learn at their speed.


"Need I say more to show that this policy of Partnership could, in South Africa, only mean the eventual disappearance of the white South African nation? And will you be greatly surprised if I tell you that this white nation is not prepared to commit national suicide, not even by slow poisoning? The only alternative is a policy of  apartheid,the policy of separate development. The germ of this policy is inherent in almost all of our history, implanted there by the force of circumstances....  Apartheid isa policy of self preservation. " - guess who

"Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction." - no really, guess
 
2014-02-28 09:54:11 AM  
Duh
 
2014-02-28 09:54:38 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Garet Garrett: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: The entire point of the headline was that the better (questionably defined) results are because they can choose the students they deal with.

That's certainly the implication of the article, but that's just not accurate.  Nothing in the article said the outcome differentials are accounted for by the disparity in expulsion statistics.  In fact, the casual attitude that the expulsion rates are relevant at all suggests they could do the math, but they haven't done so.  Which means to my skeptical eye that the math doesn't bear out what they're trying to say.

And by the way, it's not as though so-called public schools can't "choose the students they deal with" if that means expelling people.  They do expel people, just (in this case) fewer of them.  So maybe that's just a mistake the public schools are making?

But if one public school expels a student, another one has to pick him up, right? So Eastside high school expels 14-year old John for spitting at a teacher. He now is transferred to Westside High (while being replaced at east side by an expellee from the other school).

The kid doesn't just sit at home for the rest of his childhood. At least that is my understanding.


Chicago has a number of alternative programs, credit recovery schools and the like where those students often go to. CPS even has a school in the Cook County Jail to ensure that school age prisoners are still receiving an education.
 
2014-02-28 09:55:36 AM  

LectertheChef: techgeek07: What scares me are the all the religious nut charters popping up everywhere.

Why be scared by that? If you have kids, push them to go into one of the STEM fields, the kids taught in religious schools won't be able to compete, since their version of science class consists of reading the Bible and concluding that everything in the universe happens because Jesus. Social Darwinism will resolve this issue eventually, in the meantime, non-stupid/crazy parents can give their kids a leg up on the competition.


That presumes that the government won't be run by crazies who put creationists and climate change deniers on boards that distribute grant money.
 
2014-02-28 09:55:59 AM  
All "privatization" schemes work this way - skim off the profitable part of rendering a service, then slough the unprofitable remainder back off onto the commons. Privatize the profits - socialize the costs.
 
2014-02-28 09:56:55 AM  

TheBigJerk: Dancin_In_Anson: Diogenes: So you should give me your tax money so I can send my kid somewhere your kid can't go.

Nah, just do away with charters altogether and your kid can sit in class with the turds and learn at their speed.

"Need I say more to show that this policy of Partnership could, in South Africa, only mean the eventual disappearance of the white South African nation? And will you be greatly surprised if I tell you that this white nation is not prepared to commit national suicide, not even by slow poisoning? The only alternative is a policy of  apartheid,the policy of separate development. The germ of this policy is inherent in almost all of our history, implanted there by the force of circumstances....  Apartheid isa policy of self preservation. " - guess who

"Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction." - no really, guess


Setting students who learn at a different rate, or who may be disruptive to the education process, into a separate learning environment is not the same as separating people based upon the color of their skin.

Of course, anyone whose learning wasn't disrupted by the bottom 10% would realize that intuitively.
 
2014-02-28 09:57:17 AM  
Privatize the profit, subsidize the losses. American crony capitalism at its finest.
 
Displayed 50 of 258 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report