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(Popular Science)   Structural engineers around the world tout the most advanced building material that is taking the construction industry by storm and will utterly remake city skylines ... wood   (popsci.com) divider line 146
    More: Strange, structural engineers, skylines, Shoreditch, waste minimisation, Luftwaffe, tallest skyscraper, storms, Burj Khalifa  
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7979 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Feb 2014 at 10:19 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



146 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-02-27 11:18:09 AM  

brimed03: Buggar: ChipNASA: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

That the problem.....even with a diagram most guys can't find the CLT..

Truth be told, I've only see it from these pictures on the internet myself.  I've handled plenty of plywood, OSB, and laminated timbers, and while they may be similar, they aren't the same.  I would be surprised if it isn't 16 years before I see CLT in person.

Damn.  Too easy.  You take all the fun out of it.

/The rest of us will be surprised if it only takes you 16 years to see CLT in person


Ok here it goes...

CLT?

EIP.


/I'm going to get so many photos of wood. LMFAO
 
2014-02-27 11:18:22 AM  

brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

The fun part is knowing that, before posting, you did exactly that just to make sure you didn't sound like some jerk idiot.

/didn't work

Well you were obviously searching for it in the wrong way.  Don't get mad at me cause you're looking in all the wrong places.

I had Google-searched "cross-laminated timber."  Forgive me for not being so bright as to think of using the less-specific abbreviation.


Don't be so hard on yourself. CLT isn't obvious, it's not that any of us are necessarily less bright.
 
2014-02-27 11:18:56 AM  
I think it will have it's applications for sure.  If you look on the web for it you can also find where they are making a kind of hemp concrete for construction of homes.  The walls built just get harder and harder over the years while pure concrete degrades after about 40 years and begins to crumble.

It is listed as carbon-negative......what ever that means.

Here is a link or two....no real time spent just a quick goooglee:

http://inhabitat.com/hemcrete-carbon-negative-hemp-walls-7x-stronger -t han-concrete/

http://consciouslifenews.com/hempcrete-amazing-environmentally-frien dl y-alternative-concrete-video/

http://www.mindnovelty.com/cannabis-hempcrete-being-used-in-latest-g re en-building-designs/
 
2014-02-27 11:21:50 AM  
I have to wonder about this. There is a "luxury" apartment building, that does look pretty sweet, being built entirely out of wood. It's 4 stories tall, I really find this unusual. Anything over 2 I figured would be concrete/steel.
 
2014-02-27 11:24:56 AM  

max_pooper: brimed03: Mose: A thick plank of wood will char on the outside, sealing the wood inside from damage. Metal, on the other hand, begins to melt. "Steel, when it burns, it's like spaghetti," says B.J. Yeh, the technical services director for APA-the Engineered Wood Association.

There's so much stupid in those sentences right there, I don't know where to begin.

I grant the guy's job is to shill for the industry.  But, bearing in mind that most of us don't know you, what credentials and expertise do you have over this guy?


Let's see, who should I listen to, a registered Professional Engineer with PhD from Berkley or a farker with a GED in buildingology?


I'm going to archtitecture me up some sheltering because I'm a buildingologist.  Great now you have me talking like I'm a former President.   Nice strategery. Jerk
 
2014-02-27 11:27:43 AM  
This process sounds promising... I would be interested in seeing how a building constructed like this would stand up to a similar steel building in a Life After People kinda scenario.
 
2014-02-27 11:27:51 AM  
Termites.

/That is all
 
2014-02-27 11:27:54 AM  

brimed03: thecpt: Most city codes are written so that a wood framed building can't be more than 4 stories. So...yeah good luck getting them to change that within the next 20 years

That was covered in tfa.


Read and re-skimmed. I don't see relevant information to counter my post. Revise and resubmit.
 
2014-02-27 11:27:55 AM  

jayphat: I have to wonder about this. There is a "luxury" apartment building, that does look pretty sweet, being built entirely out of wood. It's 4 stories tall, I really find this unusual. Anything over 2 I figured would be concrete/steel.


They built a massive condo complex near my house using lots and lots of wood.  As I watched them build it, I thought to myself, "Holy, farking potential bonfire, Batman!"
 
2014-02-27 11:29:22 AM  

codenamewizard: I think it will have it's applications for sure.  If you look on the web for it you can also find where they are making a kind of hemp concrete for construction of homes.  The walls built just get harder and harder over the years while pure concrete degrades after about 40 years and begins to crumble.

It is listed as carbon-negative......what ever that means.

Here is a link or two....no real time spent just a quick goooglee:

http://inhabitat.com/hemcrete-carbon-negative-hemp-walls-7x-stronger -t han-concrete/

http://consciouslifenews.com/hempcrete-amazing-environmentally-frien dl y-alternative-concrete-video/

http://www.mindnovelty.com/cannabis-hempcrete-being-used-in-latest-g re en-building-designs/


carbon negative means its locking carbon away in situ for as long as the material exists. Planing grass and then harvesting it is carbon negative. Burning or brewing the grass is carbon positive.

But this is plywood. I've seen similar stuff done with bamboo.
 
2014-02-27 11:32:45 AM  
I don't think it will replace steel, but as an adjunct it may be quite useful. But then wouldn't laminated bamboo lumber have almost all of the same benefits of the cross laminated timber and be far more sustainable?
 
2014-02-27 11:33:37 AM  

codenamewizard: I think it will have it's applications for sure.  If you look on the web for it you can also find where they are making a kind of hemp concrete for construction of homes.  The walls built just get harder and harder over the years while pure concrete degrades after about 40 years and begins to crumble.

It is listed as carbon-negative......what ever that means.

Here is a link or two....no real time spent just a quick goooglee:

http://inhabitat.com/hemcrete-carbon-negative-hemp-walls-7x-stronger -t han-concrete/

http://consciouslifenews.com/hempcrete-amazing-environmentally-frien dl y-alternative-concrete-video/

http://www.mindnovelty.com/cannabis-hempcrete-being-used-in-latest-g re en-building-designs/


that sounds like a good fit for a monolithic dome home...
 
2014-02-27 11:35:12 AM  
shermanmarch.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-02-27 11:38:03 AM  

Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: ChipNASA: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

That the problem.....even with a diagram most guys can't find the CLT..

Truth be told, I've only see it from these pictures on the internet myself.  I've handled plenty of plywood, OSB, and laminated timbers, and while they may be similar, they aren't the same.  I would be surprised if it isn't 16 years before I see CLT in person.

Damn.  Too easy.  You take all the fun out of it.

/The rest of us will be surprised if it only takes you 16 years to see CLT in person

Hey we're all in the same boat and you know it.  Just some pictures and something we've heard about on the internet that sounds cool.


Some of us know how to contact the man in the boat, though.
 
2014-02-27 11:41:02 AM  

parkke0108: Termites.

/That is all


Probably not with all the toxic glues.
 
2014-02-27 11:43:19 AM  

Tr0mBoNe: But this is plywood. I've seen similar stuff done with bamboo.


Ah, yes, me old bamboo.
 
2014-02-27 11:43:26 AM  

cgraves67: pheelix: cgraves67: Fun Fact: Tokyo was once built of wood. I wonder what happened to it?
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x233]

No need to go further than Chicago to make your point.

I could also go with London 1666, but I thought a picture of an actual city burning would be more visceral.


cause we all know that steel & concrete building are impervious
img.fark.net
/visceral enough?
 
2014-02-27 11:44:46 AM  

brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: ChipNASA: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

That the problem.....even with a diagram most guys can't find the CLT..

Truth be told, I've only see it from these pictures on the internet myself.  I've handled plenty of plywood, OSB, and laminated timbers, and while they may be similar, they aren't the same.  I would be surprised if it isn't 16 years before I see CLT in person.

Damn.  Too easy.  You take all the fun out of it.

/The rest of us will be surprised if it only takes you 16 years to see CLT in person

Hey we're all in the same boat and you know it.  Just some pictures and something we've heard about on the internet that sounds cool.

Some of us know how to contact the man in the boat, though.


Yeah but he's gonna want like $300 to set you up.
 
2014-02-27 11:46:07 AM  
Ok is it just me or has everyone's Fark Ads changed over to Hardwood?
 
2014-02-27 11:47:40 AM  
I'm a real-life structural engineer, and wood "towers" would be stupid.

Wood is great and all, but it's real "springy" when compared to concrete or steel.  So beams have to be deeper and columns bigger (and more closely spaced) than steel or concrete elements.  This means deeper floors and fatter columns, which increases floor-to-floor heights and lessens floor sq footage.
All this decreases economy.

Plus, I'd be a little skeptical about how much this baby's going to sway.  It's basically relying on plywood to keep it rigid.

Then there's the whole issue of building this thing.  How many construction companies are going to bid something that's really never been done before.  If they do bid on it, they'll crank up the contingency fee.

Additionally, I'd be concerned about vertical creep.  Wood tends to slowly deform under load, and with 30 stories or whatever constantly pushing down, the cladding is going to have to absorb several inches of vertical movement.

And the wood charring and protecting the "inside" of the wood is real, but has limits.  The guy in TFA is just spouting talking points.  The issue with steel and fire is that steel weakens at temps above about 800 deg. F.  If steel is designed tight, this can lead to big deflections, and other issues.  I think wood at 800 deg would just flash.
 
2014-02-27 11:51:41 AM  

inner ted: cgraves67: pheelix: cgraves67: Fun Fact: Tokyo was once built of wood. I wonder what happened to it?
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x233]

No need to go further than Chicago to make your point.

I could also go with London 1666, but I thought a picture of an actual city burning would be more visceral.

cause we all know that steel & concrete building are impervious
[img.fark.net image 260x194]
/visceral enough?


Not a city.
 
2014-02-27 11:52:38 AM  

Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

The fun part is knowing that, before posting, you did exactly that just to make sure you didn't sound like some jerk idiot.

/didn't work

Well you were obviously searching for it in the wrong way.  Don't get mad at me cause you're looking in all the wrong places.

I had Google-searched "cross-laminated timber."  Forgive me for not being so bright as to think of using the less-specific abbreviation.

Don't be so hard on yourself. CLT isn't obvious, it's not that any of us are necessarily less bright.


Again, the results of Googling CLT.  For those who learn best by endless repetition.

But go on, enjoy your nice cup of smug.  It'll keep you company while you wait those 16+ years to see the clt in person.
 
2014-02-27 11:54:05 AM  

inner ted: cgraves67: pheelix: cgraves67: Fun Fact: Tokyo was once built of wood. I wonder what happened to it?
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x233]

No need to go further than Chicago to make your point.

I could also go with London 1666, but I thought a picture of an actual city burning would be more visceral.

cause we all know that steel & concrete building are impervious

/visceral enough?


Interesting thing is that because of that attack there must be a secure means of egress that has absolutely nothing flammable installed. Even wood that's fire rated.

/also csb, those unidentified bodies are currently 50m away from me:(
 
2014-02-27 11:54:40 AM  

parkke0108: Termites.

/That is all


Have to be termites with pretty damn strong teeth, or whatever they use.

/wood-dissolving acids?  Frickin' laser beams?
 
2014-02-27 11:54:41 AM  

brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

The fun part is knowing that, before posting, you did exactly that just to make sure you didn't sound like some jerk idiot.

/didn't work

Well you were obviously searching for it in the wrong way.  Don't get mad at me cause you're looking in all the wrong places.

I had Google-searched "cross-laminated timber."  Forgive me for not being so bright as to think of using the less-specific abbreviation.

Don't be so hard on yourself. CLT isn't obvious, it's not that any of us are necessarily less bright.

Again, the results of Googling CLT.  For those who learn best by endless repetition.

But go on, enjoy your nice cup of smug.  It'll keep you company while you wait those 16+ years to see the clt in person.


I told you to GIS. Just plain googling doesn't work.
 
2014-02-27 11:56:06 AM  
Has the internet sunk so low that blog writers feel free to write "circumambulates"?
 
2014-02-27 11:58:05 AM  

BigGrnEggGriller: I'm a real-life structural engineer, and wood "towers" would be stupid.


I think this might have good application for more low-to-mid rise construction, where there's a marginal cost between building with wood and being shorter and going with steel and getting a few extra stories. This may let developers add those extra stories more cheaply.

Not so concerned about the fire risk as typical city codes require massive amounts of sprinkling.

Also, like you said and as the pictures in TFA imply, you're going to be limited in your design options, as the building cannot be built with an open plan. This may be more suitable for apartments than office spaces.

I'm also curious about the glues that they're using. Given the general trend in making buildings more "tight", I'd expect a lot of VOCs to linger, causing health problems during offgassing.
 
2014-02-27 11:58:07 AM  

brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

The fun part is knowing that, before posting, you did exactly that just to make sure you didn't sound like some jerk idiot.

/didn't work

Well you were obviously searching for it in the wrong way.  Don't get mad at me cause you're looking in all the wrong places.

I had Google-searched "cross-laminated timber."  Forgive me for not being so bright as to think of using the less-specific abbreviation.


Try looking for cross laminated integrated timber....
 
2014-02-27 12:00:11 PM  

BigGrnEggGriller: I'm a real-life structural engineer, and wood "towers" would be stupid.

Wood is great and all, but it's real "springy" when compared to concrete or steel.  So beams have to be deeper and columns bigger (and more closely spaced) than steel or concrete elements.  This means deeper floors and fatter columns, which increases floor-to-floor heights and lessens floor sq footage.
All this decreases economy.

Plus, I'd be a little skeptical about how much this baby's going to sway.  It's basically relying on plywood to keep it rigid.

Then there's the whole issue of building this thing.  How many construction companies are going to bid something that's really never been done before.  If they do bid on it, they'll crank up the contingency fee.

Additionally, I'd be concerned about vertical creep.  Wood tends to slowly deform under load, and with 30 stories or whatever constantly pushing down, the cladding is going to have to absorb several inches of vertical movement.

And the wood charring and protecting the "inside" of the wood is real, but has limits.  The guy in TFA is just spouting talking points.  The issue with steel and fire is that steel weakens at temps above about 800 deg. F.  If steel is designed tight, this can lead to big deflections, and other issues.  I think wood at 800 deg would just flash.


And that's not even mentioning the Big Bad Wolf.
 
2014-02-27 12:08:12 PM  

BigGrnEggGriller: I'm a real-life structural engineer, and wood "towers" would be stupid.

Wood is great and all, but it's real "springy" when compared to concrete or steel.  So beams have to be deeper and columns bigger (and more closely spaced) than steel or concrete elements.  This means deeper floors and fatter columns, which increases floor-to-floor heights and lessens floor sq footage.
All this decreases economy.

Plus, I'd be a little skeptical about how much this baby's going to sway.  It's basically relying on plywood to keep it rigid.

Then there's the whole issue of building this thing.  How many construction companies are going to bid something that's really never been done before.  If they do bid on it, they'll crank up the contingency fee.

Additionally, I'd be concerned about vertical creep.  Wood tends to slowly deform under load, and with 30 stories or whatever constantly pushing down, the cladding is going to have to absorb several inches of vertical movement.

And the wood charring and protecting the "inside" of the wood is real, but has limits.  The guy in TFA is just spouting talking points.  The issue with steel and fire is that steel weakens at temps above about 800 deg. F.  If steel is designed tight, this can lead to big deflections, and other issues.  I think wood at 800 deg would just flash.


As a steel detailer, my experience has been that wood structures rarely go over 4 or 5 stories, in things like hotels, retirement homes, etc. things are going to be built according to what's fastest and cheapest, which is still probably beam/barjoist with an EIFS over light guage exterior.

/need any autocad work done?
 
2014-02-27 12:08:20 PM  

cgraves67: inner ted: cgraves67: pheelix: cgraves67: Fun Fact: Tokyo was once built of wood. I wonder what happened to it?
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x233]

No need to go further than Chicago to make your point.

I could also go with London 1666, but I thought a picture of an actual city burning would be more visceral.

cause we all know that steel & concrete building are impervious
[img.fark.net image 260x194]
/visceral enough?

Not a city.

 

also: not fire proof

thecpt: inner ted: cgraves67: pheelix: cgraves67: Fun Fact: Tokyo was once built of wood. I wonder what happened to it?
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x233]

No need to go further than Chicago to make your point.

I could also go with London 1666, but I thought a picture of an actual city burning would be more visceral.

cause we all know that steel & concrete building are impervious

/visceral enough?

Interesting thing is that because of that attack there must be a secure means of egress that has absolutely nothing flammable installed. Even wood that's fire rated.

/also csb, those unidentified bodies are currently 50m away from me:(


too bad it took til that event to come up with a pretty common sense idea.

also: i'm guessing there are LOTS of unidentified bodies around you if you are in NY
 
2014-02-27 12:09:17 PM  
thecpt: Read and re-skimmed. I don't see relevant information to counter my post. Revise and resubmit.

We're sort of both right, and both wrong on this one.  Or rather, who is right depends on whether you're being absolutely literal or allowing for interpretation of the text.  So far as any specific reference to wooden-building codes goes, FTA: a series of horrible urban fires swept through square mile after square mile of wooden houses and apartment blocks in cities such as Baltimore, Chicago, and San Francisco.  These disasters led to strict local construction codes that limited the height of residential wood buildings to as low as five floors.

The article never states, thereafter, that these codes have been amended for CLT.  So, point in your favor.

But the quoted reference, followed by discussion of how buildings are actually going up now, necessarily implies that either codes are being revised, or that CLT is sufficiently distinguished from just "wood" that those codes don't apply.  Point in my favor.

Really, it's all in what you choose to read between the lines.  If you want to be literal: no, the article does not literally state that CLT builders are not struggling with "wood-height" codes.  If you want to opt for what I think is pretty clear implication: the writer makes the necessary mention of the codes that went into place after fires of ordinary wood structures, but CLT sufficiently distinguishes itself from ordinary wood that it is not restricted by these codes.
 
2014-02-27 12:10:21 PM  

ChipNASA: brimed03: Buggar: ChipNASA: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

That the problem.....even with a diagram most guys can't find the CLT..

Truth be told, I've only see it from these pictures on the internet myself.  I've handled plenty of plywood, OSB, and laminated timbers, and while they may be similar, they aren't the same.  I would be surprised if it isn't 16 years before I see CLT in person.

Damn.  Too easy.  You take all the fun out of it.

/The rest of us will be surprised if it only takes you 16 years to see CLT in person

Ok here it goes...

CLT?

EIP.

/I'm going to get so many photos of wood. LMFAO


Sent you a link to Brute Force Collaborative blog.
 
2014-02-27 12:10:57 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: Has the internet sunk so low that blog writers feel free to write "circumambulates"?


Circumambulates is the name of my They Might Be Giants cover band
 
2014-02-27 12:15:58 PM  

Mose: A thick plank of wood will char on the outside, sealing the wood inside from damage. Metal, on the other hand, begins to melt. "Steel, when it burns, it's like spaghetti," says B.J. Yeh, the technical services director for APA-the Engineered Wood Association.

There's so much stupid in those sentences right there, I don't know where to begin.


I think that BJ Yeh is referring to the structural properties of the materials as they burn.  I'm sure you already know this, but steel frame buildings need fire proofing sprayed all over the beams/columns so as to not transfer heat, and to limit the exposure of heat because high temperatures make them malleable, leading to the collapse. The burning CLT certainly wouldn't help conduct heat, etc.  and wouldn't lose its strength until the point of collapse.  The important questions are flame spread rate, smoke production properties, and how quickly something like this burns.

There is really very little technical data in this article, certainly not enough for you to decide that the claims are patently false.
 
2014-02-27 12:16:06 PM  

Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: ChipNASA: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

That the problem.....even with a diagram most guys can't find the CLT..

Truth be told, I've only see it from these pictures on the internet myself.  I've handled plenty of plywood, OSB, and laminated timbers, and while they may be similar, they aren't the same.  I would be surprised if it isn't 16 years before I see CLT in person.

Damn.  Too easy.  You take all the fun out of it.

/The rest of us will be surprised if it only takes you 16 years to see CLT in person

Hey we're all in the same boat and you know it.  Just some pictures and something we've heard about on the internet that sounds cool.

Some of us know how to contact the man in the boat, though.

Yeah but he's gonna want like $300 to set you up.


I can understand how, based on your experiences, that would be your default assumption; but some of us-- yes, even some of us Farkers-- regularly get invited on board for free.  I guess it helps if you have experience with the man in the boat.
 
2014-02-27 12:16:35 PM  

inner ted: cgraves67: pheelix: cgraves67: Fun Fact: Tokyo was once built of wood. I wonder what happened to it?
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x233]

No need to go further than Chicago to make your point.

I could also go with London 1666, but I thought a picture of an actual city burning would be more visceral.

cause we all know that steel & concrete building are impervious
[img.fark.net image 260x194]
/visceral enough?


We also know drywall doesn't make stairways survivable in extreme conditions. Which ends up dooming thousands of people to either burning to death or jumping.

That engineer sure saved a lot of money by using drywall instead of reinforced doodads. And it made his twin penises grow ever larger.
 
2014-02-27 12:16:47 PM  
I'd be worried about the timber delaminating.  All it would take is a break in the external cladding or a slow internal leak from a pipe etc.  The other concern is people going gung-ho cutting themselves new openings for doors and windows - much easier for a muppet builder or DIYer to do thaqn steel and concrete.

/muppet builder
//used LVL beams in my own house
 
2014-02-27 12:17:47 PM  

Buggar: Ok is it just me or has everyone's Fark Ads changed over to Hardwood?


I wouldn't know: I have Ad-block.  Is that too hard for you to find?  Shall I Google that for you?  Go on, I have faith.  Just type A-D-B-L-O-C-K into Google.
 
2014-02-27 12:19:22 PM  

codenamewizard: The walls built just get harder and harder over the years while pure concrete degrades after about 40 years and begins to crumble.


Here are some examples of things that cause concrete to degrade:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_degradation

Time, however, is not one of them.  Concrete is a material that gains strength...pretty much forever.  It is an asymptotic curve, but none-the-less it should make gains forever.  Just look at the Roman aquaducts.
 
2014-02-27 12:25:41 PM  
While we're talking building materials, are insulated concrete form buildings cropping up like crazy in anyone else's neck of the woods, or is it just a Canada thing?

Personally, I think they're stoopid-looking and would rather live in a wood skyscraper than a styrofoam house.
 
2014-02-27 12:27:06 PM  

brimed03: thecpt: Read and re-skimmed. I don't see relevant information to counter my post. Revise and resubmit.

We're sort of both right, and both wrong on this one.  Or rather, who is right depends on whether you're being absolutely literal or allowing for interpretation of the text.  So far as any specific reference to wooden-building codes goes, FTA: a series of horrible urban fires swept through square mile after square mile of wooden houses and apartment blocks in cities such as Baltimore, Chicago, and San Francisco.  These disasters led to strict local construction codes that limited the height of residential wood buildings to as low as five floors.

The article never states, thereafter, that these codes have been amended for CLT.  So, point in your favor.

But the quoted reference, followed by discussion of how buildings are actually going up now, necessarily implies that either codes are being revised, or that CLT is sufficiently distinguished from just "wood" that those codes don't apply.  Point in my favor.

Really, it's all in what you choose to read between the lines.  If you want to be literal: no, the article does not literally state that CLT builders are not struggling with "wood-height" codes.  If you want to opt for what I think is pretty clear implication: the writer makes the necessary mention of the codes that went into place after fires of ordinary wood structures, but CLT sufficiently distinguishes itself from ordinary wood that it is not restricted by these codes.


Sorry to give you that hard time. I just know how the three building depts that I frequent would react to this design and all three are extremely different in their setup and what they normally see. In order to get this kind of design though, you'd need hundreds of hours allocated for an expeditor and for the design team to explain. The money needed (even after the supposed "savings") still isn't cheaper.

Maybe after 20 years of LEED trail blazers it would be cost efficient. I'm not saying I'm against this btw
 
2014-02-27 12:27:09 PM  

BigGrnEggGriller: I'm a real-life structural engineer, and wood "towers" would be stupid.  Wood is...


Now this is an interesting and informed criticism.  Not being snarky, I am referring to parts of the comment I snipped out for brevity.

his means deeper floors and fatter columns, which increases floor-to-floor heights and lessens floor sq footage.  All this decreases economy.

And also, I'd intuit (in my uninformed way), leads to more of the "creep" you mention below.  Which requires more cladding.  Which requires more structural support (deeper floors/fatter columns).  Which increases weight and leads to more creep. Which requires...

Plus, I'd be a little skeptical about how much this baby's going to sway.  It's basically relying on plywood to keep it rigid.

Hadn't thought about that.  At what height do tall buildings need to start factoring in wind sway?  Also, how is this baby gonna do in an earthquake?  Can you use those earthquake cables/anchors/springs/whatever they are, on these?

 If steel is designed tight, this can lead to big deflections, and other issues.

I've no idea what any of this means, but I'd like to.  Would you explain?
 
2014-02-27 12:30:56 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: inner ted: cgraves67: pheelix: cgraves67: Fun Fact: Tokyo was once built of wood. I wonder what happened to it?
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x233]

No need to go further than Chicago to make your point.

I could also go with London 1666, but I thought a picture of an actual city burning would be more visceral.

cause we all know that steel & concrete building are impervious
[img.fark.net image 260x194]
/visceral enough?

We also know drywall doesn't make stairways survivable in extreme conditions. Which ends up dooming thousands of people to either burning to death or jumping.

That engineer sure saved a lot of money by using drywall instead of reinforced doodads. And it made his twin penises grow ever larger.


the point is that wood is getting a bad rap on this thread.  nothing is indestructible.  wood has been used widely & forever cause it works well & it will continue to work well.  building with wood is a great way to store carbon (unless that building burns down), it regrows relatively quickly & is less toxic than many synthetic alternatives. of course it won't be nor should it be used for everything, but seeing new uses for something that has been used for a long time is a neat thing.
 
2014-02-27 12:30:57 PM  

brimed03: Hadn't thought about that.  At what height do tall buildings need to start factoring in wind sway?  Also, how is this baby gonna do in an earthquake?  Can you use those earthquake cables/anchors/springs/whatever they are, on these?


Sniping here, but a CLT building would do well in an earthquake, simply because it is light and relatively flexible compared to other building materials.  Those are the two key features for surviving a earthquake.
 
2014-02-27 12:33:35 PM  

brimed03: Buggar: Ok is it just me or has everyone's Fark Ads changed over to Hardwood?

I wouldn't know: I have Ad-block.  Is that too hard for you to find?  Shall I Google that for you?  Go on, I have faith.  Just type A-D-B-L-O-C-K into Google.


Hey, I'm not the one having trouble finding something.  I'm not going to do the GIS search for you cause that won't help you when you're on your own.  And why aren't you feeding fark's squirrels?
 
2014-02-27 12:34:05 PM  

Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

The fun part is knowing that, before posting, you did exactly that just to make sure you didn't sound like some jerk idiot.

/didn't work

Well you were obviously searching for it in the wrong way.  Don't get mad at me cause you're looking in all the wrong places.

I had Google-searched "cross-laminated timber."  Forgive me for not being so bright as to think of using the less-specific abbreviation.

Don't be so hard on yourself. CLT isn't obvious, it's not that any of us are necessarily less bright.

Again, the results of Googling CLT.  For those who learn best by endless repetition.

But go on, enjoy your nice cup of smug.  It'll keep you company while you wait those 16+ years to see the clt in person.

I told you to GIS. Just plain googling doesn't work.


Yeah.  I know.  So you  told me with a punchable mouthful of snark.

Who the hell would start out with a GIS search for something they want text information for?  I wanted to know what the stuff is, not just how it looks.  And you know what: I actually have pretty good game when it comes to Google-fu, and eventually I find what I want.  But why the fark would I do that when I can come back to this thread and ask someone with a relevant background who could either tell me directly or give me some solid educational/industry links?  Go GIS that one, jackass.
 
2014-02-27 12:35:50 PM  

rumpelstiltskin: Has the internet sunk so low that blog writers feel free to write "circumambulates"?


I wasn't aware there was an opinion that you could get any lower than blog writers.

/not saying I share that opinion
//not saying I don't, either
///come to think of it though, Nancy Grace is lower than most blog writers
 
2014-02-27 12:37:12 PM  

stanadamsii: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: Buggar: brimed03: The Irresponsible Captain: Interesting. Personally, I'm hoping that laminate beams will revive timber frame construction. The solid wood panels have some advantages that were missed. They insulate better than steel and wood, they flex more than concrete without breaking.

Without knowing what I'm looking for, all I could find for sure on Google was laminated beams.  Could you provide a relevant link?  I'm interested.

You poor thing, you can't find CLT?  Just do a GIS for CLT and you'll see a few diagrams and pictures that will help you more easily recognize it in the future.

The fun part is knowing that, before posting, you did exactly that just to make sure you didn't sound like some jerk idiot.

/didn't work

Well you were obviously searching for it in the wrong way.  Don't get mad at me cause you're looking in all the wrong places.

I had Google-searched "cross-laminated timber."  Forgive me for not being so bright as to think of using the less-specific abbreviation.

Try looking for cross laminated integrated timber....


See, Buggar?  Now this is some funny shiat.  So voted, too.
 
2014-02-27 12:39:38 PM  

brimed03: parkke0108: Termites.

/That is all

Have to be termites with pretty damn strong teeth, or whatever they use.

/wood-dissolving acids?  Frickin' laser beams?


Formosan termites will find this to be a tasty treat, since those suckers devour railroad crossties soaked with creosote, and pressure treated lumber is not safe from them either.
 
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