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(Telegraph)   Russian flag raised in Crimea. This is not a repeat from 1853   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 136
    More: Followup, Crimean, Russians, Ukraine, combat aircraft, Russian flag, regional government, Nikita Khrushchev, President Viktor Yanukovich  
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4824 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Feb 2014 at 8:00 AM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-27 10:57:42 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.


Turkey. Sevastopol isn't Ukraine's only Black Sea port.

Hell, just denying Russian ships access to the Bosphorus makes Sevastopol worthless.
 
2014-02-27 11:01:03 AM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


Why on Earth should we get ourselves involved with this? This is not in any sense our fight.
 
2014-02-27 11:03:08 AM  

Geotpf: Turkey and Greece hate each other due to Cyprus. They are both members of NATO, so, in theory, they should. In practice, it's doubtful that such would occur (or would be needed).


In practice, both are likely more concerned about the Russians than about Cyprus.
 
2014-02-27 11:08:48 AM  

Geotpf: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

1. "gut" != a 10% cut
2. We spend almost as much on our military as the other 200ish countries on the planet do-combined.  This includes allies like Great Britain and France.
3. Do you really want to get into a shooting war with the Russians over the Ukraine?
4. In short, stop being stupid.


You and your ridiculous demands.
 
2014-02-27 11:14:18 AM  
And nobody is going to give Ukraine billions of dollars in aid. There is no money even to run new elections.

And this is where the danger lies IMO.  If the EU, US, Canada don't come through with financial aid, the country will have no choice but to fall back to the Russians.  I think they're all preparing some sort of packages but these will be need to be significant and long term in order to be effective.

Let the EU put their money where their mouths are, so to speak.
 
2014-02-27 11:17:19 AM  
My understanding of this was that most of the separatist talk was coming from pro-EU western Ukraine, when it didn't look like Yanukovich was going to leave. Now that he's gone, I would expect the guys who were talking about leaving aren't doing that any more. Sort of like Texas doesn't want to secede when there's a Republican in the White House.

Now, I know Crimea is an important area for both Ukraine and Russia because of the major shipping access. It's been a bone of international contention for so long that there's really no "right" answer, as best I can tell, for how it should be governed. I mean, everybody under the sun has invaded the place at some point, so it's not like there's some overwhelmingly right answer for how the place should be governed. It was the last holdout of the Czars, it was a separate country under the Soviets, then it was invaded by the Nazis, then it was part of Russia (where Stalin did a pretty thorough ethnic cleansing job on it), then it was part of Ukraine in the 50s, and after the collapse of the USSR, it became a semi-autonomous republic that is nominally part of Ukraine, but with a long-term Russian military presence. The good news is, as has been pointed out elsewhere, it's also NOT OUR PROBLEM.

As far as the Tatars go, are those the same thing as Cossacks? That's just another explosive strand in an already unstable situation. These guys were scattered to the four winds by Stalin and they're looking at Crimea as the sort of homeland that Israel was for Jews after WW2. At the same time, you've got ethnic Russians making up a majority of the population, which could lead to some sort of Sudetenland situation with Russia claiming sovereignty over the whole peninsula, similar to how Putin crippled Georgia and South Ossetia.

Stupid prediction time: new Ukrainian government manages to keep Ukraine unified for the next few years, although it has to grant more and more concessions to Crimea in order to do so. Putin keeps on agitating by continuing to give Crimeans Russian passports. It's a race between Ukraine becoming an EU member and Russia destabilizing Crimea to the point that the shooting starts, in my opinion. Russia could easily force them in to open conflict pretty much at any point if they wanted to be overt about it, but I'm hoping that the new Ukrainian leadership is savvy enough to keep the country together for a while.
 
2014-02-27 11:23:23 AM  

Geotpf: lifeboat: spawn73: Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.

Why would NATO be involved in this? No one except complete idiots thinks this situation involves NATO or USA in any way or form.

But yeah, I am pretty sure a NATO member like Turkey doesn't have a problem with letting its own farking coalition enter the black sea.

So, if Russia invaded Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?

Turkey and Greece hate each other due to Cyprus.  They are both members of NATO, so, in theory, they should.  In practice, it's doubtful that such would occur (or would be needed).



Wooooooooooooooosh
 
2014-02-27 11:24:04 AM  

lifeboat: spawn73: Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.

Why would NATO be involved in this? No one except complete idiots thinks this situation involves NATO or USA in any way or form.

But yeah, I am pretty sure a NATO member like Turkey doesn't have a problem with letting its own farking coalition enter the black sea.

So, if Russia invaded Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?


I don't think Greece likes Turkey much, so Russia wouldn't need to bring any lube.
 
2014-02-27 11:26:47 AM  

Grahor: spawn73: Breaking news in Danish media is that Yanukovych transferred 37 billion dollars given to Ukraine as credit, to unknown foreign accounts at some point during his presidency. Perhaps just before he stepped down?

That's, I think, a grand total of the money stolen. However, by rumors, a third of Ukrainian banking system is owned/controlled by people, who may be considered a part of corrupt Yanukovich's clique; of course they are not waiting till somebody will come to take their banks from them, but are moving, or may be already moved the money, theirs and all the deposits, offshore. Since the deposits are insured by Ukrainian government, it's going to be an interesting situation, when people who made the deposits will come for their money.

So basicly Ukraine is broke right now, and will need monetary assistance within days even.

Yep. Not because Yanukovich personally transferred all the money, but, first of all, the whole "taking aid from Putin in exchange for closer ties" happened, among other things, because Ukraine was already dangerously close to bankrupt, and because when shiat like this happens, first thing that disappears is money.

And nobody is going to give Ukraine billions of dollars in aid. There is no money even to run new elections.


So the banking sector is about to collapse as well. I'm surprised, given this, that there hasn't been a run on the banks?

I think the EU is gearing up for some immidiate assistance. But if Ukraine is defaulting regardless then fark that honestly, what difference would it make.
 
2014-02-27 11:28:57 AM  

QuesoDelicioso: Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.

Why on Earth should we get ourselves involved with this? This is not in any sense our fight.


All in the valley of Derp,
Rode the six hundred
 
2014-02-27 11:41:54 AM  

Geotpf: 4. In short, stop being stupid.


That's not an easy task for him.
 
2014-02-27 12:11:42 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Women hate him for some reason.  Can you imagine?


i seem to recall him racing across the snowy russian landscape in a horse-drawn sleigh, accompanied by a recently deflowered (by him, of course) russian princess clothed only in a bear rug, while being pursued by a gang of murderous cossacks. he then throws the naked woman overboard to lighten the load and get away. women hate him? i can't imagine why...
 
2014-02-27 12:23:37 PM  

danzak: And this is where the danger lies IMO.  If the EU, US, Canada don't come through with financial aid, the country will have no choice but to fall back to the Russians.  I think they're all preparing some sort of packages but these will be need to be significant and long term in order to be effective.

Let the EU put their money where their mouths are, so to speak.


Let's be realists here. EU, as a non-state structure, simply doesn't have this kind of money and doesn't have the right to assign them. Member states are in no position to find money of their own. We are speaking of bailout on par with Greece. Who is going to provide the money? Poland? Yeah, sure. Germany? Imagine their reaction. Italy?

Today the prices for basic goods have changed 3 times (in Odessa). At the morning, $USD was counted, in the shops and warehouses, at 11.50 hryvna for $1. At midday, it was 12.80 hryvna for $1, and then the trade was stopped, at least for imported goods. My friend says "it's like 90ties again". He've spent a lot of money on rice and pasta today. Just in case, you know.

EU is not going to give money. Well, it will give, of course, but too little too late. And EU never promised to feed the country, so it's not as if they are breaking any promises. EU wanted to leave Yanukovich as a figurehead of the government till December elections, exactly to evade that kind of scenario. Polish and German representatives begged Maidan. But noooooo, we want freedom, we want it now, death to the Enemies of the People, d
amn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

phyrkrakr: It's a race between Ukraine becoming an EU member


NOBODY ever promised Ukraine EU membership. EVER. Not gonna happen. For a country to become a EU member it mustto have stable profitable economy, and when the economy is stable and profitable, well, Ukraine will not actually need EU membership.

spawn73: So the banking sector is about to collapse as well. I'm surprised, given this, that there hasn't been a run on the banks?


No, not collapse. Only a third of banks is affected, worst case scenario is inflation, not a collapse. As for run on the banks, to what ends? Banks stopped giving out dollars and euro and act as exchange, and nobody is worried about hryvna deposits. Doesn't matter if they are in cash or in banks, they are guaranteed anyway, the only question is if hryvna be worth paper it's printed on when all is over.
 
2014-02-27 12:36:45 PM  
EU is not going to give money. Well, it will give, of course, but too little too late. And EU never promised to feed the country, so it's not as if they are breaking any promises. EU wanted to leave Yanukovich as a figurehead of the government till December elections, exactly to evade that kind of scenario. Polish and German representatives begged Maidan. But noooooo, we want freedom, we want it now, death to the Enemies of the People, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

I'm not sure where you're getting that from.  They promoted the idea of free elections and supported the calls that Yanukovych has to leave.  The timeline for elections was agreed to with the hopes of stopping the violence, there was never any demand or desire expressed from the EU that he stay on.  Even if he did, the only thing that might have changed would be that he would get his next Russian installment but that wasn't going to happen without Russian demands of clearing Maidan being met, resulting in more violence.  Take a look at the planned operations, it would have been a bloodbath.

My point is that the EU (and most members excluding Germany) were very vocal in supporting the protests and now it's time to help the country out.
 
2014-02-27 12:42:07 PM  
Also about banks: the movement of money is stopped, as my friend say, any way to pay for anything, at least online, is not working. You can pay for water/electricity/etc and that's all. "Maintenance". Not sure about deposits, though. It's about  http://privatbank.ua/ , one of the richest banks in Ukraine, not connected to Yanukovich, supposedly.

Funny video: national guard of the new revolutionary regime asserts his newfound power over the traffic police. All the way to promises of execution. A twerp in power, or how the new "berkut" was born. :) It goes to the point where civilians are trying to protect the police from the freedom fighters. :)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-FrhMfpltM&feature=youtu.be

Now, certainly the traffic police is not without fault. The general order is "to remain in places of dislocation", and they have dared to go to a shop near gas station. But I kind of think it's not exactly the behavior that reassures fears of Eastern Ukraine or calms the situation. I mean, if I was in the country and people like that were walking streets, armed and empowered to shoot, I would be shiatting myself from fear. At least a little less screaming would be nice.
 
2014-02-27 12:46:36 PM  
Grahor:

spawn73: So the banking sector is about to collapse as well. I'm surprised, given this, that there hasn't been a run on the banks

No, not collapse. Only a third of banks is affected, worst case scenario is inflation, not a collapse. As for run on the banks, to what ends? Banks stopped giving out dollars and euro and act as exchange, and nobody is worried about hryvna deposits. Doesn't matter if they are in cash or in banks, they are guaranteed anyway, the only question is if hryvna be worth paper it's printed on when all is over.


Surely an rational actor would want to get any money out, and exchange it for any goods with a lasting value, if rampant inflation is expected.
 
2014-02-27 12:55:38 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: that1guy77: I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point

There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.  NATO could do it by invading Poland first, I suppose, but that presents its own problems.  An amphibious invasion at Sevastopol would start a shooting war with Russia.  And nobody in the region is eager to see a foreign army roll over their soil.

So direct military intervention is off the table.


Why would NATO invade Poland which is a NATO member?
 
2014-02-27 12:55:42 PM  

Ring of Fire: I'm not saying that NATO should be involved but if the had to get to involved it would be nice to know we can get in there. Also a few ships sitting in the Black Sea could be a good detergent to russian involvement.


media.treehugger.com

/hammer & sickle essentials?
 
2014-02-27 12:56:00 PM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


Russia is a culture and nation, not 'bad people'. We are not 'led by the biggest pussy in the history of the world'. I'm sorry this isn't your Halo game, but reality involves actual people, is not black and white, and you need to get out of middle school before trying to comment on politics, since you clearly have no respect for the fact that the people you so strongly hate are other human beings.
 
2014-02-27 12:58:35 PM  

danzak: I'm not sure where you're getting that from.



Well, from this one, for example:   http://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&i e =UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fracurs.ua%2Fnews%2F22987-sikorskiy-i-shtaynmayer -otpravilis-na-maydan-obsujdat-soglashenie&act=url

Now, I don't have all the details, but the agreement was achieved for Yanukovich to step down, to revert constitution to 2014 and so on. There was probably a reason why Sikorski and  Frank-Walter Steinmeier thought it's a good enough agreement to try to present it to Maidan and to ask them to follow it.

danzak: My point is that the EU (and most members excluding Germany) were very vocal in supporting the protests and now it's time to help the country out.


They were vocal in supporting freedom and democracy, in stopping brutal fighting and deaths of protesters, and I'm totally with them. But that does not imply that they have to pay for newfound Ukrainian freedom. And my guess is that they will not.

There is no doubt some help will be provided, it's absurd to think they'll do nothing. But I think it will not be nearly enough.
 
2014-02-27 01:07:35 PM  

spawn73: Surely an rational actor would want to get any money out, and exchange it for any goods with a lasting value, if rampant inflation is expected.


It is not known if the rampant inflation will happen; I'm afraid of that, but I'm not sure. Taking money out of banks even 10 days ago meant that you are losing all the money you get as percents, I have no idea how say it in English, in short, you are getting less money than you could.

Right now, I'm not even sure banks giving deposit money away.

Secondly, what exactly goods of lasting value? Food and necessities - you don't need a bank deposit for that. House or land or appartaments - good luck finding anyone selling it. Car or jewelry or gold or $US - _nobody_ is selling that... Goods of lasting value currently are not for sale in hryvnas in Ukraine.

Additionally, people are not exactly rational actors. They hope for the best - if you'll try to buy, say, $US now, and rampant inflation do not happen, and hryvna would return to pre-protest rate - you would lose what, half of everything you own? *shrug*
 
2014-02-27 01:12:02 PM  

Ring of Fire: Also a few ships sitting in the Black Sea could be a good detergent to russian involvement.


You gotta be kidding me. US ships in the Black Sea represent a colossalloss of face for Russia, Putin would have no choice but to move whole Black Sea fleet to the sea, to but out Baltic fleet towards European waters and generally to prepare for full-out war, including mobilization on the borders of Ukraine, if he wants it or not. Don't freakin do it!
 
2014-02-27 01:25:27 PM  

rnatalie: Not too many Americans know much about the Crimea.   Mostly it's famous for its war and its river.    We've all heard of the Crimean War and the Crimea River.


What about the Crimea roll?
 
2014-02-27 01:50:38 PM  

Grahor: danzak: I'm not sure where you're getting that from.


Well, from this one, for example:   http://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&i e =UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fracurs.ua%2Fnews%2F22987-sikorskiy-i-shtaynmayer -otpravilis-na-maydan-obsujdat-soglashenie&act=url

Now, I don't have all the details, but the agreement was achieved for Yanukovich to step down, to revert constitution to 2014 and so on. There was probably a reason why Sikorski and  Frank-Walter Steinmeier thought it's a good enough agreement to try to present it to Maidan and to ask them to follow it.

danzak: My point is that the EU (and most members excluding Germany) were very vocal in supporting the protests and now it's time to help the country out.

They were vocal in supporting freedom and democracy, in stopping brutal fighting and deaths of protesters, and I'm totally with them. But that does not imply that they have to pay for newfound Ukrainian freedom. And my guess is that they will not.

There is no doubt some help will be provided, it's absurd to think they'll do nothing. But I think it will not be nearly enough.


? There's nothing about what you claim in the link. Sure, the agreement that was originally reached was presented to Maidan but my point was that the Foreign ministers present probably accepted Yanukovych staying on because they were focused on stopping the violence and this was a way to do that. At no time did the EU reps suggest that he should stay.

Your last point above I totally agree with, they will help but it will be a little bit at a time when Ukraine really needs something like the Marshall Plan. They are completely without the resources they need to pull themselves out of this.
 
2014-02-27 01:59:44 PM  

FlashHarry: Marcus Aurelius: Women hate him for some reason.  Can you imagine?

i seem to recall him racing across the snowy russian landscape in a horse-drawn sleigh, accompanied by a recently deflowered (by him, of course) russian princess clothed only in a bear rug, while being pursued by a gang of murderous cossacks. he then throws the naked woman overboard to lighten the load and get away. women hate him? i can't imagine why...


I love that scene.  It's vintage Flashman.
 
2014-02-27 02:00:27 PM  

JDJoeE: Why would NATO invade Poland which is a NATO member?


PLEASE GOD MAKE IT STOP
 
2014-02-27 02:59:45 PM  

PsiChick: Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.

Russia is a culture and nation, not 'bad people'. We are not 'led by the biggest pussy in the history of the world'. I'm sorry this isn't your Halo game, but reality involves actual people, is not black and white, and you need to get out of middle school before trying to comment on politics, since you clearly have no respect for the fact that the people you so strongly hate are other human beings.


Hush, the men-folk are talking.
 
2014-02-27 03:04:37 PM  

ReverendJynxed: PsiChick: Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.

Russia is a culture and nation, not 'bad people'. We are not 'led by the biggest pussy in the history of the world'. I'm sorry this isn't your Halo game, but reality involves actual people, is not black and white, and you need to get out of middle school before trying to comment on politics, since you clearly have no respect for the fact that the people you so strongly hate are other human beings.

Hush, the men-folk are talking.


That's cute.
 
2014-02-27 03:16:32 PM  

Grahor: spawn73: Surely an rational actor would want to get any money out, and exchange it for any goods with a lasting value, if rampant inflation is expected.

It is not known if the rampant inflation will happen; I'm afraid of that, but I'm not sure. Taking money out of banks even 10 days ago meant that you are losing all the money you get as percents, I have no idea how say it in English, in short, you are getting less money than you could.

Right now, I'm not even sure banks giving deposit money away.

Secondly, what exactly goods of lasting value? Food and necessities - you don't need a bank deposit for that. House or land or appartaments - good luck finding anyone selling it. Car or jewelry or gold or $US - _nobody_ is selling that... Goods of lasting value currently are not for sale in hryvnas in Ukraine.

Additionally, people are not exactly rational actors. They hope for the best - if you'll try to buy, say, $US now, and rampant inflation do not happen, and hryvna would return to pre-protest rate - you would lose what, half of everything you own? *shrug*


I was considering that exact dilemma in the bus right now (not much to see out the windows).

If I had money, not a fortune, but say a few thousand euros worth. I'd purchase brand name cigarettes. 1 year from now, I bet you can get 90% of the value. People will still be addicted to nicotine, and they store easy.

And, if you're lucky, Ukraine will put taxes on cigarettes to gain some money, maybe under the guise of public health or the like.
 
2014-02-27 03:24:09 PM  

danzak: And nobody is going to give Ukraine billions of dollars in aid. There is no money even to run new elections.

And this is where the danger lies IMO.  If the EU, US, Canada don't come through with financial aid, the country will have no choice but to fall back to the Russians.  I think they're all preparing some sort of packages but these will be need to be significant and long term in order to be effective.

Let the EU put their money where their mouths are, so to speak.


I don't really see how this is in any way EUs fault.

Sure, they offered Ukraine a trade deal. But they didn't preasure them to take it. It was on the table, and Ukraine went with Russia instead.

Then they start protesting in the streets, hardly the fault of EU. However, the EU manage to broker a peace deal, which the protesters sign, and then violate within 24 hours. Again, how is this EUs fault? If the protestors had just kept to the peaceagreement, then Yanukovych wouldn't have fled in the manner he did, and things would likely have proceded in an orderly fashion.

Sure, it would be very nice of the EU if they helped Ukraine financially, but I don't think it has a moral obligation to do so.
 
2014-02-27 04:12:35 PM  

NobleHam: greentea1985: I fully expect Ukraine to split in the next few months with the resulting countries being either Europe-friendly West Ukraine and the Russian client state East Ukraine, or into Ukraine and the new Russian province of Crimea. Now Yanukovich has gone running into the arms of his girlfriend Putin, I expect one of those outcomes, as long as Russia has the sense to not pull a USSR on Hungary. They've lost the Western portion of Ukraine, but the Eastern half still wants close ties with Russia or to be Russian.

Could be, but that sounds like a messy business and I think the EU, NATO, most Ukrainians, and even Russia would like to avoid a split. This Crimea trouble will likely be resolved in a few days, and depending on the level of violence required to resolve it, it may incite more anger from the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine, but probably not enough to create a mass separatist movement.


It'll be ok. This guy knows what to do.
www.cineoutsider.com
 
2014-02-27 04:13:56 PM  
I'm not saying it's their fault, just that they were supportive in their words. Now they need to translate into action or else the situation will deteriorate which benefits nobody.
 
2014-02-27 05:37:56 PM  
Reminds me of the Charge of the Light Brigade

www.davidbordwell.net
Great movie!
 
2014-02-27 05:46:32 PM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


Alright, let's show them Russkies who's got the biggest balls and the biggest stick.
Every US citizen under 30 will do 3 year military service so we have a standing Army of 5 million men and women, no exceptions, no excuses. Also, there will be a 20% national sales tax to fund our $2T wet dream of a military budget.
What? You're not with me? Why do you hate America??
 
2014-02-27 09:49:46 PM  

Cheesehead_Dave: [img.photobucket.com image 400x289]


I bet that killed at the cartographers conference.
 
2014-02-28 01:38:56 AM  

spawn73: If I had money, not a fortune, but say a few thousand euros worth. I'd purchase brand name cigarettes. 1 year from now, I bet you can get 90% of the value. People will still be addicted to nicotine, and they store easy.


That's a possibility, but let's look at the possible drawbacks. Buying cigarettes in bulk from retail shops is not cost-effective, even if they keep enough in stock (which they probably don't, it's quite often you hear "we don't have that brand today"). Buying from wholesalers is better, but you need to know where those are, wholsesalers who sell parties as small as couple of thousands of euro worth.

And how are you going to sell them? Selling them in the streets one pack at a time is hardly a good idea; you need to be a registered business with probably some qualifications for tobacco (depending on regulations) to sell wholesale to shops; and you need to be a business before you buy cigarettes, to have a paper trail.

Generally, it's a lot of fuss for an average person, don't you agree?

Now, if you were a business or business-savvy person already, sure, that's a possibility. But if you were this kind of person, you would likely try to protect your own existing stocks... :)

Today's funny story: my friend's friends work as private guards for Toyota car dealership, I think. So they are on around the clock alert. Okay, so they got some people who broke in, trying to steal the cars, but what now? They don't have the right to arrest or anything, even to detain, but police is not particularly interested. They've disarmed robbers, locked them in the room, call police - police says "wait for now, we don't have personnel, somebody will be there. Some time in the future. Probably. We think." So private guards (not the brightest of bulbs or the most savvy in laws, as you can imagine) are stuck. What do they do with robbers?

My friend wanted to advise them to take care of the robbers by the laws of revolutionary times - you know, execute without court or trial. He has a funny sense of humor like this. :)
 
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  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

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