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(Telegraph)   Russian flag raised in Crimea. This is not a repeat from 1853   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 136
    More: Followup, Crimean, Russians, Ukraine, combat aircraft, Russian flag, regional government, Nikita Khrushchev, President Viktor Yanukovich  
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4853 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Feb 2014 at 8:00 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



136 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-02-27 08:02:48 AM  
You take my life, but I'll take yours too...
 
2014-02-27 08:06:14 AM  
Here comes years of suffering...
 
2014-02-27 08:07:08 AM  
i290.photobucket.com
 
2014-02-27 08:09:29 AM  
This will end well.
 
2014-02-27 08:10:17 AM  
It's just President Chicken Kiev's supporters showing their support for P. Chick and his girlfriend, Putin.
 
2014-02-27 08:11:29 AM  
i.imgur.com

"We're putting the band back together"
 
2014-02-27 08:11:58 AM  
Looks like the Ukraine is about to loose it's family jewel.  That'll make them testy.
 
2014-02-27 08:15:18 AM  
img.fark.net

You say armed men have occupied the parliament in a section of the Ukraine and raised the Russian flag over it?
(puts on sunglasses)
Go Crimea river.

Yeaaaaaah!!!!!
 
2014-02-27 08:16:20 AM  
I fully expect Ukraine to split in the next few months with the resulting countries being either Europe-friendly West Ukraine and the Russian client state East Ukraine, or into Ukraine and the new Russian province of Crimea. Now Yanukovich has gone running into the arms of his girlfriend Putin, I expect one of those outcomes, as long as Russia has the sense to not pull a USSR on Hungary. They've lost the Western portion of Ukraine, but the Eastern half still wants close ties with Russia or to be Russian.
 
2014-02-27 08:17:54 AM  

Mztlplx: You take my life, but I'll take yours too...


You'll fire your musket, but I'll run you through
 
2014-02-27 08:19:01 AM  
Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......
 
2014-02-27 08:19:32 AM  

Harry Freakstorm: [img.fark.net image 300x203]

You say armed men have occupied the parliament in a section of the Ukraine and raised the Russian flag over it?
(puts on sunglasses)
Go Crimea river.

Yeaaaaaah!!!!!


Okay that was pretty good, one internet for you today.
 
2014-02-27 08:20:17 AM  
I see Maiden has been covered. Well done mates.
 
2014-02-27 08:21:12 AM  
Well I'm glad to see that everyone in Ukraine is being calm and rational again.
 
2014-02-27 08:21:35 AM  

Mztlplx: You take my life, but I'll take yours too...


I feel bad that Maiden wasn't the first band that came to my mind...

i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-27 08:22:47 AM  
I guess Putin gets his territory card this turn.  Does he have enough to complete a set yet and get a troop bonus?
 
2014-02-27 08:23:29 AM  

Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......


Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.
 
2014-02-27 08:23:51 AM  

greentea1985: I fully expect Ukraine to split in the next few months with the resulting countries being either Europe-friendly West Ukraine and the Russian client state East Ukraine, or into Ukraine and the new Russian province of Crimea. Now Yanukovich has gone running into the arms of his girlfriend Putin, I expect one of those outcomes, as long as Russia has the sense to not pull a USSR on Hungary. They've lost the Western portion of Ukraine, but the Eastern half still wants close ties with Russia or to be Russian.


It really does look like that is how this is going to play out. I was hoping the whole of Ukraine would go with the EU - could have helped stabilize surrounding areas and keep Putin in check. Last night, friends I have there have wanted this for years.

I wouldn't venture a guess on Crimea yet tho. But that's just me.
 
2014-02-27 08:27:14 AM  

Tomahawk513: Harry Freakstorm: [img.fark.net image 300x203]

You say armed men have occupied the parliament in a section of the Ukraine and raised the Russian flag over it?
(puts on sunglasses)
Go Crimea river.

Yeaaaaaah!!!!!

Okay that was pretty good, one internet for you today.


Bet you've been bouncing up and down since yesterday waiting to throw that out.
Well played, sir.
 
2014-02-27 08:29:12 AM  

greentea1985: I fully expect Ukraine to split in the next few months with the resulting countries being either Europe-friendly West Ukraine and the Russian client state East Ukraine, or into Ukraine and the new Russian province of Crimea. Now Yanukovich has gone running into the arms of his girlfriend Putin, I expect one of those outcomes, as long as Russia has the sense to not pull a USSR on Hungary. They've lost the Western portion of Ukraine, but the Eastern half still wants close ties with Russia or to be Russian.


Could be, but that sounds like a messy business and I think the EU, NATO, most Ukrainians, and even Russia would like to avoid a split. This Crimea trouble will likely be resolved in a few days, and depending on the level of violence required to resolve it, it may incite more anger from the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine, but probably not enough to create a mass separatist movement.
 
2014-02-27 08:36:30 AM  
Not too many Americans know much about the Crimea.   Mostly it's famous for its war and its river.    We've all heard of the Crimean War and the Crimea River.
 
2014-02-27 08:36:30 AM  

NobleHam: greentea1985: I fully expect Ukraine to split in the next few months with the resulting countries being either Europe-friendly West Ukraine and the Russian client state East Ukraine, or into Ukraine and the new Russian province of Crimea. Now Yanukovich has gone running into the arms of his girlfriend Putin, I expect one of those outcomes, as long as Russia has the sense to not pull a USSR on Hungary. They've lost the Western portion of Ukraine, but the Eastern half still wants close ties with Russia or to be Russian.

Could be, but that sounds like a messy business and I think the EU, NATO, most Ukrainians, and even Russia would like to avoid a split. This Crimea trouble will likely be resolved in a few days, and depending on the level of violence required to resolve it, it may incite more anger from the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine, but probably not enough to create a mass separatist movement.


Plus, there were (and in some cases continue) significant protests against Yanukovych in the East as well so it's not as cut and dried anymore. The new gov't has been promoting unity. I don't think it's quite as simple as it may have been a few years ago.

Also, the Crimean Tartars do not want to join Russia and they're claim to the Crimea is much stronger than the Russians. That's who is fighting with the separatists now.
 
2014-02-27 08:38:03 AM  

ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.


Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.
 
2014-02-27 08:38:23 AM  
I'd bet money there are more than a few Russian Spetznas involved in this.
 
2014-02-27 08:44:04 AM  

Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......


Relax, we still spend as much as the rest of the world combined.

And that much still won't win you a land war in Asia.
 
2014-02-27 08:44:55 AM  

meh.: Mztlplx: You take my life, but I'll take yours too...

You'll fire your musket, but I'll run you through


So when you're waiting for the next attack
 
2014-02-27 08:45:23 AM  

Thunderpipes: How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger?


You're speaking of course about bin Laden and Ghadaffi and Morsi?
 
2014-02-27 08:48:00 AM  
The Ukraine is to Russia what Syria is to Iran and they'll do everything to hold on to it. Geographically and strategically, Ukraine was the core of the former USSR, and as far as Putin is concerned, the nation isn't up for discussion or negotiation. To Putin, as it's part of Russia. Putin will do whatever it takes to ensure Ukraine belongs to him. Putin has options should he decide on intervention. He could provide military support to Yanukovich, raise energy prices, levy Ukrainian exports into Russia, or impose any number of economic measures designed to send a shot across the bow of the pro-West protesters. But getting tough with Ukraine right now is risky as it would only inflame anti-Russian sentiment.

I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point. The Ukraine, like Georgia, is not a NATO member, and therefore, an attack on this one is not an attack on all. I can' t see how Russia would stand by idly and allow for this to happen. It's been repeated over and over again from military leaders that this won't be allowed to transpire. One such example: Russia warns US on Ukraine, says Moscow could act ...

Whatever happens, the longer the protests continue and the shakier the Yanukovich government becomes, as we're seeing right now, the more anxious Putin will grow -- and an anxious Putin is a very dangerous Putin.
 
2014-02-27 08:51:14 AM  
The United States says any Russian military action would be a grave mistake.

Thank the good Lord the republicans (war party) are not currently occupying the white house.
Although ain't no telling what the lying f*cktard in their now will do, at least there is a chance the USA will stay out of it if the Ruskies invade.
 
2014-02-27 08:51:22 AM  
How about they let each part of the country decide where they want to go?
 
2014-02-27 08:52:08 AM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


America should state where the red line is that can't be crossed, instruct Joe Biden to lead a committee on the Crimea situation, then send a few high ranking military diplomats (make sure their gay because that will embarrass Putin) and everything should be fine.
 
2014-02-27 08:53:07 AM  

that1guy77: I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point


There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.  NATO could do it by invading Poland first, I suppose, but that presents its own problems.  An amphibious invasion at Sevastopol would start a shooting war with Russia.  And nobody in the region is eager to see a foreign army roll over their soil.

So direct military intervention is off the table.
 
2014-02-27 08:57:14 AM  

that1guy77: The Ukraine is to Russia what Syria is to Iran and they'll do everything to hold on to it. Geographically and strategically, Ukraine was the core of the former USSR, and as far as Putin is concerned, the nation isn't up for discussion or negotiation. To Putin, as it's part of Russia. Putin will do whatever it takes to ensure Ukraine belongs to him. Putin has options should he decide on intervention. He could provide military support to Yanukovich, raise energy prices, levy Ukrainian exports into Russia, or impose any number of economic measures designed to send a shot across the bow of the pro-West protesters. But getting tough with Ukraine right now is risky as it would only inflame anti-Russian sentiment.

I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point. The Ukraine, like Georgia, is not a NATO member, and therefore, an attack on this one is not an attack on all. I can' t see how Russia would stand by idly and allow for this to happen. It's been repeated over and over again from military leaders that this won't be allowed to transpire. One such example: Russia warns US on Ukraine, says Moscow could act ...

Whatever happens, the longer the protests continue and the shakier the Yanukovich government becomes, as we're seeing right now, the more anxious Putin will grow -- and an anxious Putin is a very dangerous Putin.



It is no longer a Yanukovich Government. He has been expelled from his party:
Yanukovych impeachment - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Regions#Yanukovych_impeachment

On 22 February 2014, during the "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Regions#cite_note-Yanuousted-97 ">[97] Out of the 38 PoR deputies present, 36 voted in favour of ousting Yanukovich while 2 did not take part in the vote.[98]
In a written statement the next day, the party denounced Yanukovych, stating they "strongly condemn the criminal orders that led to human victims, an empty state treasury, huge debts, shame before the eyes of the Ukrainian people and the entire world."[99]
On 24 February 2014 faction leader [100] 77 of its MPs had left the faction over the past few days.[100]
On 25 February 2014 [58][101]
 
2014-02-27 08:57:30 AM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


It must physically hurt to troll this hard.
 
2014-02-27 08:57:34 AM  

that1guy77: The Ukraine is to Russia what Syria is to Iran and they'll do everything to hold on to it. Geographically and strategically, Ukraine was the core of the former USSR, and as far as Putin is concerned, the nation isn't up for discussion or negotiation. To Putin, as it's part of Russia. Putin will do whatever it takes to ensure Ukraine belongs to him. Putin has options should he decide on intervention. He could provide military support to Yanukovich, raise energy prices, levy Ukrainian exports into Russia, or impose any number of economic measures designed to send a shot across the bow of the pro-West protesters. But getting tough with Ukraine right now is risky as it would only inflame anti-Russian sentiment.

I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point. The Ukraine, like Georgia, is not a NATO member, and therefore, an attack on this one is not an attack on all. I can' t see how Russia would stand by idly and allow for this to happen. It's been repeated over and over again from military leaders that this won't be allowed to transpire. One such example: Russia warns US on Ukraine, says Moscow could act ...

Whatever happens, the longer the protests continue and the shakier the Yanukovich government becomes, as we're seeing right now, the more anxious Putin will grow -- and an anxious Putin is a very dangerous Putin.


Yanukovich is about as unpopular among ethnic Russians in Ukraine as he is among non-Russians.  He's probably hiding in Russia but he is almost certainly not destined to go back to Ukraine.
 
2014-02-27 08:58:19 AM  
I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.
 
2014-02-27 08:58:49 AM  

Born_Again_Bavarian: that1guy77: The Ukraine is to Russia what Syria is to Iran and they'll do everything to hold on to it. Geographically and strategically, Ukraine was the core of the former USSR, and as far as Putin is concerned, the nation isn't up for discussion or negotiation. To Putin, as it's part of Russia. Putin will do whatever it takes to ensure Ukraine belongs to him. Putin has options should he decide on intervention. He could provide military support to Yanukovich, raise energy prices, levy Ukrainian exports into Russia, or impose any number of economic measures designed to send a shot across the bow of the pro-West protesters. But getting tough with Ukraine right now is risky as it would only inflame anti-Russian sentiment.

I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point. The Ukraine, like Georgia, is not a NATO member, and therefore, an attack on this one is not an attack on all. I can' t see how Russia would stand by idly and allow for this to happen. It's been repeated over and over again from military leaders that this won't be allowed to transpire. One such example: Russia warns US on Ukraine, says Moscow could act ...

Whatever happens, the longer the protests continue and the shakier the Yanukovich government becomes, as we're seeing right now, the more anxious Putin will grow -- and an anxious Putin is a very dangerous Putin.

Yanukovich is about as unpopular among ethnic Russians in Ukraine as he is among non-Russians.  He's probably hiding in Russia but he is almost certainly not destined to go back to Ukraine.


Double-teamed that post...ouch. I didn't want to point out all of the fallacies in this post, thanks for your help!
 
2014-02-27 08:58:50 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: that1guy77: I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point

There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.  NATO could do it by invading Poland first, I suppose, but that presents its own problems.


The biggest problem being that Poland is a NATO member?
 
2014-02-27 08:59:24 AM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


So, invade? WTF are you suggesting actually?
 
2014-02-27 09:00:05 AM  
Snippet off BBC:

The men have not yet made any demands or issued any statements but did put up a sign reading: "Crimea is Russia".

They threw a flash grenade in response to questions from a journalist, AP news agency reported.


Wrong question?

 

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


You hate pussy. Got it.
 
2014-02-27 09:00:19 AM  
This dance has been going on for centuries.
 
2014-02-27 09:00:50 AM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


Hey TP, I'm curious- what's your MOS?
 
2014-02-27 09:00:55 AM  

Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.


Forgot Turkey is in NATO.
 
2014-02-27 09:01:42 AM  

Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.


The Turks are in NATO. So yes, they would.
 
2014-02-27 09:03:25 AM  

Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......


Again, what the fark does this have to do with USA?

This is the typical American thought process "Something happens in X country, that doesn't in any way or form involve the USA. Clearly we need to invade/bomb them"?
 
2014-02-27 09:06:00 AM  
danzak:

Also, the Crimean Tartars do not want to join Russia and they're claim to the Crimea is much stronger than the Russians. That's who is fighting with the separatists now.

They only make up about 10% of the population.

AFAIK they have no reason to want to be a part of Ukraine either than it being the better of the two choices.
 
2014-02-27 09:06:37 AM  

spawn73: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Again, what the fark does this have to do with USA?

This is the typical American thought process "Something happens in X country, that doesn't in any way or form involve the USA. Clearly we need to invade/bomb them"?


It wouldn't be quite so bad if said persons could identify said countries on a map of the world.
 
2014-02-27 09:08:04 AM  

that1guy77: The Ukraine is to Russia what Syria is to Iran and they'll do everything to hold on to it. Geographically and strategically, Ukraine was the core of the former USSR, and as far as Putin is concerned, the nation isn't up for discussion or negotiation. To Putin, as it's part of Russia. Putin will do whatever it takes to ensure Ukraine belongs to him.


<snip>

That's a long post, with a lot of statements made as facts, that will of course be proven completely wrong over the next few days/weeks.

Hope that doesn't bother you to much. :)
 
2014-02-27 09:10:42 AM  

Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.


Why would NATO be involved in this? No one except complete idiots thinks this situation involves NATO or USA in any way or form.

But yeah, I am pretty sure a NATO member like Turkey doesn't have a problem with letting its own farking coalition enter the black sea.
 
2014-02-27 09:11:24 AM  

spawn73: This is the typical American thought process "Something happens in X country, that doesn't in any way or form involve the USA. Clearly we need to invade/bomb them"?


"Git this terrorist derka bullhonkey off my news!  MURIKA!"
 
2014-02-27 09:12:27 AM  

NobleHam: Marcus Aurelius: that1guy77: I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point

There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.  NATO could do it by invading Poland first, I suppose, but that presents its own problems.

The biggest problem being that Poland is a NATO member?


So they'd welcome an invading army with open arms?

Let's be practical here.
 
2014-02-27 09:14:17 AM  

ColonelCathcart: that1guy77: The Ukraine is to Russia what Syria is to Iran and they'll do everything to hold on to it. Geographically and strategically, Ukraine was the core of the former USSR, and as far as Putin is concerned, the nation isn't up for discussion or negotiation. To Putin, as it's part of Russia. Putin will do whatever it takes to ensure Ukraine belongs to him. Putin has options should he decide on intervention. He could provide military support to Yanukovich, raise energy prices, levy Ukrainian exports into Russia, or impose any number of economic measures designed to send a shot across the bow of the pro-West protesters. But getting tough with Ukraine right now is risky as it would only inflame anti-Russian sentiment.

I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point. The Ukraine, like Georgia, is not a NATO member, and therefore, an attack on this one is not an attack on all. I can' t see how Russia would stand by idly and allow for this to happen. It's been repeated over and over again from military leaders that this won't be allowed to transpire. One such example: Russia warns US on Ukraine, says Moscow could act ...

Whatever happens, the longer the protests continue and the shakier the Yanukovich government becomes, as we're seeing right now, the more anxious Putin will grow -- and an anxious Putin is a very dangerous Putin.


It is no longer a Yanukovich Government. He has been expelled from his party:
Yanukovych impeachment - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Regions#Yanukovych_impeachment

On 22 February 2014, during the "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Regions#cite_note-Yanuousted-97 ">[97] Out of the 38 PoR deputies present, 36 voted in favour of ousting Yanukovich while 2 did not take part in the vote.[98 ...


Meh... I'm not here to split hairs, but political loyalty in just about any country would take the same turn when the SHTF. It's still in principal his government, and has crumbled.
 
2014-02-27 09:15:15 AM  

spawn73: That's a long post, with a lot of statements made as facts, that will of course be proven completely wrong over the next few days/weeks.

Hope that doesn't bother you to much. :)


I agree with him that Putin will not surrender Sevastopol.  No way that happens.  So something has to give.
 
2014-02-27 09:15:18 AM  

greentea1985: I fully expect Ukraine to split in the next few months with the resulting countries being either Europe-friendly West Ukraine and the Russian client state East Ukraine, or into Ukraine and the new Russian province of Crimea. Now Yanukovich has gone running into the arms of his girlfriend Putin, I expect one of those outcomes, as long as Russia has the sense to not pull a USSR on Hungary. They've lost the Western portion of Ukraine, but the Eastern half still wants close ties with Russia or to be Russian.


You mean Crimea will be returned to being the Crimean Oblast, which it was until the 1950s.
 
2014-02-27 09:16:09 AM  

Mr. Breeze: I'd bet money there are more than a few Russian Spetznas involved in this.


No joke.  I can't believe there were people in the Ukraine thread yesterday who actually believed Russia's statement that they wouldn't get militarily involved in Ukraine.  If they aren't involved already, they're going to use this as an excuse.
 
2014-02-27 09:17:31 AM  

spawn73: danzak:

Also, the Crimean Tartars do not want to join Russia and they're claim to the Crimea is much stronger than the Russians. That's who is fighting with the separatists now.

They only make up about 10% of the population.

AFAIK they have no reason to want to be a part of Ukraine either than it being the better of the two choices.


I meant historically.  They've been there since the Middle Ages.  Stalin threw them out, they started to come back after the USSR fell apart
 
2014-02-27 09:17:36 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: that1guy77: I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point

There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.  NATO could do it by invading Poland first, I suppose, but that presents its own problems.  An amphibious invasion at Sevastopol would start a shooting war with Russia.  And nobody in the region is eager to see a foreign army roll over their soil.

So direct military intervention is off the table.


If you don't mind... Could you please explain why on earth would NATO invade itself? Besides, we're dealing with opinions, and 'no invasion' just happens to be yours. I'm not passing mine of as fact.
 
2014-02-27 09:20:29 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: spawn73: That's a long post, with a lot of statements made as facts, that will of course be proven completely wrong over the next few days/weeks.

Hope that doesn't bother you to much. :)

I agree with him that Putin will not surrender Sevastopol.  No way that happens.  So something has to give.


He doesn't have to.  They have a lease for the naval base until like 2025 or something.  I don't see any threat to that.
 
2014-02-27 09:21:41 AM  

spawn73: Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.

Why would NATO be involved in this? No one except complete idiots thinks this situation involves NATO or USA in any way or form.

But yeah, I am pretty sure a NATO member like Turkey doesn't have a problem with letting its own farking coalition enter the black sea.


Yes I know turkey is in NATO I just forgot for a second need more coffe see above.

I'm not saying that NATO should be involved but if the had to get to involved it would be nice to know we can get in there. Also a few ships sitting in the Black Sea could be a good detergent to russian involvement.
The last thing I want is NATO involvement. I fully expect at least Crimea to leave Ukraine. I know it's an autonomous republic and I have no idea what the deal with them leaving would be or if the can legally just leave, but the problem I see is if all of southern Ukraine wants to leave I don't see the Ukrainians letting that happen.
They won't want to let Odessa go and become a landlocked country.
Russian expansion would put the Eastern European NATO members on edge to say the least so it's not a bad idea to have some plan of action even if it's a worse case scenario.
 
2014-02-27 09:22:16 AM  

spawn73: that1guy77: The Ukraine is to Russia what Syria is to Iran and they'll do everything to hold on to it. Geographically and strategically, Ukraine was the core of the former USSR, and as far as Putin is concerned, the nation isn't up for discussion or negotiation. To Putin, as it's part of Russia. Putin will do whatever it takes to ensure Ukraine belongs to him.

<snip>

That's a long post, with a lot of statements made as facts, that will of course be proven completely wrong over the next few days/weeks.

Hope that doesn't bother you to much. :)


Not at all. It makes for a much more interesting life to be analytical, right or wrong, instead of someone sitting on the stands who thinks he knows better or can do better than the players. xoxo
 
2014-02-27 09:22:27 AM  

that1guy77: Marcus Aurelius: that1guy77: I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point

There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.  NATO could do it by invading Poland first, I suppose, but that presents its own problems.  An amphibious invasion at Sevastopol would start a shooting war with Russia.  And nobody in the region is eager to see a foreign army roll over their soil.

So direct military intervention is off the table.

If you don't mind... Could you please explain why on earth would NATO invade itself? Besides, we're dealing with opinions, and 'no invasion' just happens to be yours. I'm not passing mine of as fact.


OK, OK, OK.  When I said "invade Poland", what I was implying is that the Poles are not going to look kindly on NATO armored columns traversing Poland in order to attack the Russians in the Ukraine.  Politically it's not going to happen.  That's what I meant by "invade Poland".

So I humbly apologize to everyone here who thinks I don't know that Poland is a part of NATO.  Just because Poland is a part of NATO doesn't mean that Poland does what NATO says.

Is that OK with everyone, or do I have to say a dozen Hail Drews first?
 
2014-02-27 09:23:25 AM  
img.fark.net

/approves
 
2014-02-27 09:23:56 AM  

danzak: They have a lease for the naval base until like 2025 or something


Oh, that long.  That's like, what, another 11 years.  I'm sure that will ease Putin's fevered mind.
 
2014-02-27 09:24:32 AM  

FlashHarry: [img.fark.net image 620x413]

/approves


I always wondered if that's where you got your handle.
 
2014-02-27 09:25:56 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: FlashHarry: [img.fark.net image 620x413]

/approves

I always wondered if that's where you got your handle.


yup. one of my all-time favorite literary characters.
 
2014-02-27 09:26:10 AM  

danzak: Marcus Aurelius: spawn73: That's a long post, with a lot of statements made as facts, that will of course be proven completely wrong over the next few days/weeks.

Hope that doesn't bother you to much. :)

I agree with him that Putin will not surrender Sevastopol.  No way that happens.  So something has to give.

He doesn't have to.  They have a lease for the naval base until like 2025 or something.  I don't see any threat to that.


Under the regime that was overthrown, mind you... The next incoming government might see that as void, 'not in the best interests of Ukraine', etc... and not honor it.
 
2014-02-27 09:26:28 AM  
Subby is right. It's a repeat of 1783.
 
2014-02-27 09:29:44 AM  
I know it's an autonomous republic and I have no idea what the deal with them leaving would be or if the can legally just leave, but the problem I see is if all of southern Ukraine wants to leave I don't see the Ukrainians letting that happen.

They are the Auntonomous Republic of Crimea and they do have their own Parliament. My understanding is that they do have more rights than Ukrainian oblasts, like enacting laws etc but they can't just say they want to leave Ukraine.  Think more along the lines of state or provincial rights, with the oblasts having similar powers as a municipality (although they are structured differently).

There are also 21 republics within Russia now (like Dagestan).  I wonder if Putin would move to recognize a republic in Ukraine wanting to separate but ignore the same issue within Russia (who am I kidding, of course he would)
 
2014-02-27 09:29:57 AM  

that1guy77: danzak: Marcus Aurelius: spawn73: That's a long post, with a lot of statements made as facts, that will of course be proven completely wrong over the next few days/weeks.

Hope that doesn't bother you to much. :)

I agree with him that Putin will not surrender Sevastopol.  No way that happens.  So something has to give.

He doesn't have to.  They have a lease for the naval base until like 2025 or something.  I don't see any threat to that.

Under the regime that was overthrown, mind you... The next incoming government might see that as void, 'not in the best interests of Ukraine', etc... and not honor it.


That only works if the host country has the ability to throw out the guest.  Ever wonder how many times Castro told us to GTFO of Gitmo?
 
2014-02-27 09:30:11 AM  

danzak: spawn73: danzak:

Also, the Crimean Tartars do not want to join Russia and they're claim to the Crimea is much stronger than the Russians. That's who is fighting with the separatists now.

They only make up about 10% of the population.

AFAIK they have no reason to want to be a part of Ukraine either than it being the better of the two choices.

I meant historically.  They've been there since the Middle Ages.  Stalin threw them out, they started to come back after the USSR fell apart


Yeah, but Crimea didn't become a part of Ukraine till 1954. So I don't see why they would be particular about Ukraine either, in a historical context.
 
2014-02-27 09:34:37 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: danzak: They have a lease for the naval base until like 2025 or something

Oh, that long.  That's like, what, another 11 years.  I'm sure that will ease Putin's fevered mind.


sorry, it was an extra 25 years (from the original agreement running out in 2017).  So, they're locked in until 2042 at least.

Russia is expanding its base in Novorossiysk as preparation and to accommodate upgrades to the Black Sea fleet
 
2014-02-27 09:35:40 AM  

spawn73: danzak: spawn73: danzak:

Also, the Crimean Tartars do not want to join Russia and they're claim to the Crimea is much stronger than the Russians. That's who is fighting with the separatists now.

They only make up about 10% of the population.

AFAIK they have no reason to want to be a part of Ukraine either than it being the better of the two choices.

I meant historically.  They've been there since the Middle Ages.  Stalin threw them out, they started to come back after the USSR fell apart

Yeah, but Crimea didn't become a part of Ukraine till 1954. So I don't see why they would be particular about Ukraine either, in a historical context.


You were right with your second point above.  They hate the Russians more
 
2014-02-27 09:36:40 AM  

Born_Again_Bavarian: that1guy77: danzak: Marcus Aurelius: spawn73: That's a long post, with a lot of statements made as facts, that will of course be proven completely wrong over the next few days/weeks.

Hope that doesn't bother you to much. :)

I agree with him that Putin will not surrender Sevastopol.  No way that happens.  So something has to give.

He doesn't have to.  They have a lease for the naval base until like 2025 or something.  I don't see any threat to that.

Under the regime that was overthrown, mind you... The next incoming government might see that as void, 'not in the best interests of Ukraine', etc... and not honor it.

That only works if the host country has the ability to throw out the guest.  Ever wonder how many times Castro told us to GTFO of Gitmo?


You realize you're comparing apples with oranges, right? Either way, my opinions reflect various possibilities, not concrete predictions of the future. But I see you're trying damn hard to win against someone who isn't in competition with your pre-set beliefs. I'll also let you with your große Weisheit take the win if you want.
 
2014-02-27 09:37:42 AM  
This is exactly what happens when you start passing "laws" removing Russian as an official language.  Both the pro-EU faction and the pro-Russian faction are being led to the slaughter by right nationalism.  Let's hope that a bunch of people don't have to die in a civil war to learn that nationalism is bad....
 
2014-02-27 09:42:06 AM  

that1guy77: Marcus Aurelius: that1guy77: I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point

There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.  NATO could do it by invading Poland first, I suppose, but that presents its own problems.  An amphibious invasion at Sevastopol would start a shooting war with Russia.  And nobody in the region is eager to see a foreign army roll over their soil.

So direct military intervention is off the table.

If you don't mind... Could you please explain why on earth would NATO invade itself? Besides, we're dealing with opinions, and 'no invasion' just happens to be yours. I'm not passing mine of as fact.


We'd just be keeping Putin off balance, man. He'd never expect NATO to invade one of its own members.

You'd never want to fight a guy who was willing to punch himself in the face, right? All NATO has to do is attack Poland or Latvia or Hungary or whatever and Putin will be like "holy shiat, they crazy! I ain't messing with them!"
 
2014-02-27 09:43:00 AM  
We're gonna need a lighter brigade.
 
2014-02-27 09:43:12 AM  
Under the regime that was overthrown, mind you... The next incoming government might see that as void, 'not in the best interests of Ukraine', etc... and not honor it.

Granted, it's not a popular agreement in Ukraine (the lease was extended by Yushchenko, the winner of the Orange Revolution) but I can't see them cancelling it now.  They are paid for the use of the port by gas discounts (I think) which they still desperately need as the country is basically broke. What I can see threatening this arrangement is if Russia decides to "punish" Ukraine by raising gas prices and the Ukrainians then trying to use the port agreements as leverage against that.  That may give Putin the opening he needs to claim that Russian military forces are under threat.
But for now, I don't see new gov't in Ukraine rattling their sabres,  There's enough shiat to deal with without antagonizing Putin.
 
2014-02-27 09:47:22 AM  

danzak: Marcus Aurelius: danzak: They have a lease for the naval base until like 2025 or something

Oh, that long.  That's like, what, another 11 years.  I'm sure that will ease Putin's fevered mind.

sorry, it was an extra 25 years (from the original agreement running out in 2017).  So, they're locked in until 2042 at least.

Russia is expanding its base in Novorossiysk as preparation and to accommodate upgrades to the Black Sea fleet


I always wondered how well those lease agreements would stand up to an evenly matched military conflict.  We just might find out.
 
2014-02-27 09:48:23 AM  

FarkedOver: This is exactly what happens when you start passing "laws" removing Russian as an official language.  Both the pro-EU faction and the pro-Russian faction are being led to the slaughter by right nationalism.  Let's hope that a bunch of people don't have to die in a civil war to learn that nationalism is bad....


They got rid of a law that allowed individual regions to make additional official languages within the region.


"The Ukrainian Parliament (Verkhovna Rada) abolished the 2012 law "On State Language Policy" the day after it voted to dismiss President Viktor Yanukovich. The law allowed the country's regions to use more official languages in addition to Ukrainian if they were spoken by over 10 percent of the local population. Thirteen out of Ukraine's 27 regions, primarily in Eastern Ukraine, then adopted Russian as a second official language. Two Western regions introduced Romanian and Hungarian as official languages. "
http://rt.com/news/minority-language-law-ukraine-035/
 
2014-02-27 09:48:40 AM  

FlashHarry: one of my all-time favorite literary characters


I have every one of his books, including "The Complete MacAuslan".

Women hate him for some reason.  Can you imagine?
 
2014-02-27 09:50:03 AM  

spawn73: They only make up about 10% of the population.


Must be the tartar control toothpaste they use.
 
2014-02-27 09:50:10 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: that1guy77: Marcus Aurelius: that1guy77: I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point

There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.  NATO could do it by invading Poland first, I suppose, but that presents its own problems.  An amphibious invasion at Sevastopol would start a shooting war with Russia.  And nobody in the region is eager to see a foreign army roll over their soil.

So direct military intervention is off the table.

If you don't mind... Could you please explain why on earth would NATO invade itself? Besides, we're dealing with opinions, and 'no invasion' just happens to be yours. I'm not passing mine of as fact.

We'd just be keeping Putin off balance, man. He'd never expect NATO to invade one of its own members.

You'd never want to fight a guy who was willing to punch himself in the face, right? All NATO has to do is attack Poland or Latvia or Hungary or whatever and Putin will be like "holy shiat, they crazy! I ain't messing with them!"


Better yet, just lift tiny Luxembourg out of the ground with a shovel and hurl it on Russian territory -- preferrably on Putin's front lawn. It's kind of like the horsehead-in-bed effect.
 
2014-02-27 09:51:00 AM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


Funny, didn't know that you were president, chickenhawk...
 
2014-02-27 09:51:48 AM  
danzak:

I know you have your ear to the ground on the situation over there.  Is there a bill pending that would ban Russian media?
 
2014-02-27 09:55:42 AM  
Nothing that I've seen.  I'll check it out though
 
2014-02-27 09:57:46 AM  

danzak: Nothing that I've seen.  I'll check it out though


I've heard rumor, rumbling and conjecture of it.  I haven't seen anything concrete.
 
2014-02-27 09:59:29 AM  

FarkedOver: danzak:

I know you have your ear to the ground on the situation over there.  Is there a bill pending that would ban Russian media?


That is what the Russian Foreign Minister is claiming. I'll try to find out if there is actually a bill being introduced in the Verkhovna Rada
 
2014-02-27 10:00:54 AM  

danzak: FarkedOver: danzak:

I know you have your ear to the ground on the situation over there.  Is there a bill pending that would ban Russian media?

That is what the Russian Foreign Minister is claiming. I'll try to find out if there is actually a bill being introduced in the Verkhovna Rada


He's probably just blowing something out of proportion.
 
2014-02-27 10:04:21 AM  

tricycleracer: We're gonna need a lighter brigade.


Well, it worked so well the first time didn't it? :)
 
2014-02-27 10:06:15 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-27 10:06:38 AM  

Ring of Fire: spawn73: Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.

Why would NATO be involved in this? No one except complete idiots thinks this situation involves NATO or USA in any way or form.

But yeah, I am pretty sure a NATO member like Turkey doesn't have a problem with letting its own farking coalition enter the black sea.

Yes I know turkey is in NATO I just forgot for a second need more coffe see above.

I'm not saying that NATO should be involved but if the had to get to involved it would be nice to know we can get in there. Also a few ships sitting in the Black Sea could be a good detergent to russian involvement.
The last thing I want is NATO involvement. I fully expect at least Crimea to leave Ukraine. I know it's an autonomous republic and I have no idea what the deal with them leaving would be or if the can legally just leave, but the problem I see is if all of southern Ukraine wants to leave I don't see the Ukrainians letting that happen.
They won't want to let Odessa go and become a landlocked country.
Russian expansion would put the Eastern European NATO members on edge to say the least so it's not a bad idea to have some plan of action even if it's a worse case scenario.


Yeah, thinking about it from Ukraines viewpoint, its more of their problem than Russias, either way.

Now, the interesting port in question in Sevastopol, not Odessa, that's where both the Ukrainian and Russian fleet is stationed. Since Russia has a lease on it till 2042, I don't really think they care either way, much.

When we're talking about Crimea potentially leaving, I think we're talking about the current Crimea, ie. the blob that sticks out beneath Ukraine. The Odessa region would remain Ukrainian, being that it is 62% Ukrainian (according to Wiki). That's still the most significant warm water port for Ukraine, so they'd be good.
 
2014-02-27 10:10:39 AM  
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Hopefully not to be repeated.
 
2014-02-27 10:13:49 AM  
img.photobucket.com
 
2014-02-27 10:26:55 AM  
Calm down, everyone, sheesh. It's not WW3 yet. It's just a bunch of protesters taking over government buildings.

Ukraine isn't falling apart yet, although if the shiat with "forbidding Russian" and other nationalist nonsense will continue, it just may happen.

Russia is not interested either in Ukraine or Crimea as part of Russia, considering how much money (which Russia doesn't have) it will cost. Even the relatively small Crimea is a money hole, although it could be a matter of face, in which case the Russia will grind its teeth and take it.

Odessa is not going to leave Ukraine; it's pretty much declared itself "neutral" and will join whoever the "winner" will be. With the exception of Crimea, nobody, not even Eastern Ukraine, want to be a part of Russia; they all want to move towards Europe, generally, simplisticly speaking.

As for Odessa region being 62% Ukrainian, please, please do not confuse ethnicity with language. I guess nearly 100% of Odessa are speaking Russian, even if large part of them self-identify as Ukrainian. My friend in Odessa, for example, self-identify as Ukrainian, but speaks Russian.

The majority of Odessa's internet shops don't even have Ukrainian language version, because there is not enough demand to justify the expenses.

Nevertheless, Odessa is not leaving Ukraine and not joining Russia; unless _really_ pushed by the nationalists in the west. Hopefully won't happen.

Even Crimea is divided - it has, for example, a relatively large population of muslim Tatars, who have their own Tatar Parliament (inside the Crimea) and who would prefer to remain part of Ukraine, thankyouverymuch.

The most of the problems of Ukraine in close future are going to be economical and nationalistic, rather than "who invade whom".
 
2014-02-27 10:30:56 AM  
Breaking news in Danish media is that Yanukovych transferred 37 billion dollars given to Ukraine as credit, to unknown foreign accounts at some point during his presidency. Perhaps just before he stepped down?

So basicly Ukraine is broke right now, and will need monetary assistance within days even.
 
2014-02-27 10:40:14 AM  

spawn73: Breaking news in Danish media is that Yanukovych transferred 37 billion dollars given to Ukraine as credit, to unknown foreign accounts at some point during his presidency. Perhaps just before he stepped down?


That's, I think, a grand total of the money stolen. However, by rumors, a third of Ukrainian banking system is owned/controlled by people, who may be considered a part of corrupt Yanukovich's clique; of course they are not waiting till somebody will come to take their banks from them, but are moving, or may be already moved the money, theirs and all the deposits, offshore. Since the deposits are insured by Ukrainian government, it's going to be an interesting situation, when people who made the deposits will come for their money.

So basicly Ukraine is broke right now, and will need monetary assistance within days even.

Yep. Not because Yanukovich personally transferred all the money, but, first of all, the whole "taking aid from Putin in exchange for closer ties" happened, among other things, because Ukraine was already dangerously close to bankrupt, and because when shiat like this happens, first thing that disappears is money.

And nobody is going to give Ukraine billions of dollars in aid. There is no money even to run new elections.
 
2014-02-27 10:42:56 AM  

Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......


1. "gut" != a 10% cut
2. We spend almost as much on our military as the other 200ish countries on the planet do-combined.  This includes allies like Great Britain and France.
3. Do you really want to get into a shooting war with the Russians over the Ukraine?
4. In short, stop being stupid.
 
2014-02-27 10:43:27 AM  

spawn73: Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.

Why would NATO be involved in this? No one except complete idiots thinks this situation involves NATO or USA in any way or form.

But yeah, I am pretty sure a NATO member like Turkey doesn't have a problem with letting its own farking coalition enter the black sea.


So, if Russia invaded Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?
 
2014-02-27 10:46:04 AM  

that1guy77: ColonelCathcart: that1guy77: The Ukraine is to Russia what Syria is to Iran and they'll do everything to hold on to it. Geographically and strategically, Ukraine was the core of the former USSR, and as far as Putin is concerned, the nation isn't up for discussion or negotiation. To Putin, as it's part of Russia. Putin will do whatever it takes to ensure Ukraine belongs to him. Putin has options should he decide on intervention. He could provide military support to Yanukovich, raise energy prices, levy Ukrainian exports into Russia, or impose any number of economic measures designed to send a shot across the bow of the pro-West protesters. But getting tough with Ukraine right now is risky as it would only inflame anti-Russian sentiment.

I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point. The Ukraine, like Georgia, is not a NATO member, and therefore, an attack on this one is not an attack on all. I can' t see how Russia would stand by idly and allow for this to happen. It's been repeated over and over again from military leaders that this won't be allowed to transpire. One such example: Russia warns US on Ukraine, says Moscow could act ...

Whatever happens, the longer the protests continue and the shakier the Yanukovich government becomes, as we're seeing right now, the more anxious Putin will grow -- and an anxious Putin is a very dangerous Putin.


It is no longer a Yanukovich Government. He has been expelled from his party:
Yanukovych impeachment - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Regions#Yanukovych_impeachment

On 22 February 2014, during the "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Regions#cite_note-Yanuousted-97 ">[97] Out of the 38 PoR deputies present, 36 voted in favour of ousting Yanukovich while 2 did not take par ...


Sometimes it takes even less to lose political loyalty. For example, in the US just the allegation that  "ZOMG!! he did _______"

So I'll give you that argument!
 
2014-02-27 10:51:34 AM  

lifeboat: spawn73: Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.

Why would NATO be involved in this? No one except complete idiots thinks this situation involves NATO or USA in any way or form.

But yeah, I am pretty sure a NATO member like Turkey doesn't have a problem with letting its own farking coalition enter the black sea.

So, if Russia invaded Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?


Turkey and Greece hate each other due to Cyprus.  They are both members of NATO, so, in theory, they should.  In practice, it's doubtful that such would occur (or would be needed).
 
2014-02-27 10:57:42 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.


Turkey. Sevastopol isn't Ukraine's only Black Sea port.

Hell, just denying Russian ships access to the Bosphorus makes Sevastopol worthless.
 
2014-02-27 11:01:03 AM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


Why on Earth should we get ourselves involved with this? This is not in any sense our fight.
 
2014-02-27 11:03:08 AM  

Geotpf: Turkey and Greece hate each other due to Cyprus. They are both members of NATO, so, in theory, they should. In practice, it's doubtful that such would occur (or would be needed).


In practice, both are likely more concerned about the Russians than about Cyprus.
 
2014-02-27 11:08:48 AM  

Geotpf: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

1. "gut" != a 10% cut
2. We spend almost as much on our military as the other 200ish countries on the planet do-combined.  This includes allies like Great Britain and France.
3. Do you really want to get into a shooting war with the Russians over the Ukraine?
4. In short, stop being stupid.


You and your ridiculous demands.
 
2014-02-27 11:14:18 AM  
And nobody is going to give Ukraine billions of dollars in aid. There is no money even to run new elections.

And this is where the danger lies IMO.  If the EU, US, Canada don't come through with financial aid, the country will have no choice but to fall back to the Russians.  I think they're all preparing some sort of packages but these will be need to be significant and long term in order to be effective.

Let the EU put their money where their mouths are, so to speak.
 
2014-02-27 11:17:19 AM  
My understanding of this was that most of the separatist talk was coming from pro-EU western Ukraine, when it didn't look like Yanukovich was going to leave. Now that he's gone, I would expect the guys who were talking about leaving aren't doing that any more. Sort of like Texas doesn't want to secede when there's a Republican in the White House.

Now, I know Crimea is an important area for both Ukraine and Russia because of the major shipping access. It's been a bone of international contention for so long that there's really no "right" answer, as best I can tell, for how it should be governed. I mean, everybody under the sun has invaded the place at some point, so it's not like there's some overwhelmingly right answer for how the place should be governed. It was the last holdout of the Czars, it was a separate country under the Soviets, then it was invaded by the Nazis, then it was part of Russia (where Stalin did a pretty thorough ethnic cleansing job on it), then it was part of Ukraine in the 50s, and after the collapse of the USSR, it became a semi-autonomous republic that is nominally part of Ukraine, but with a long-term Russian military presence. The good news is, as has been pointed out elsewhere, it's also NOT OUR PROBLEM.

As far as the Tatars go, are those the same thing as Cossacks? That's just another explosive strand in an already unstable situation. These guys were scattered to the four winds by Stalin and they're looking at Crimea as the sort of homeland that Israel was for Jews after WW2. At the same time, you've got ethnic Russians making up a majority of the population, which could lead to some sort of Sudetenland situation with Russia claiming sovereignty over the whole peninsula, similar to how Putin crippled Georgia and South Ossetia.

Stupid prediction time: new Ukrainian government manages to keep Ukraine unified for the next few years, although it has to grant more and more concessions to Crimea in order to do so. Putin keeps on agitating by continuing to give Crimeans Russian passports. It's a race between Ukraine becoming an EU member and Russia destabilizing Crimea to the point that the shooting starts, in my opinion. Russia could easily force them in to open conflict pretty much at any point if they wanted to be overt about it, but I'm hoping that the new Ukrainian leadership is savvy enough to keep the country together for a while.
 
2014-02-27 11:23:23 AM  

Geotpf: lifeboat: spawn73: Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.

Why would NATO be involved in this? No one except complete idiots thinks this situation involves NATO or USA in any way or form.

But yeah, I am pretty sure a NATO member like Turkey doesn't have a problem with letting its own farking coalition enter the black sea.

So, if Russia invaded Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?

Turkey and Greece hate each other due to Cyprus.  They are both members of NATO, so, in theory, they should.  In practice, it's doubtful that such would occur (or would be needed).



Wooooooooooooooosh
 
2014-02-27 11:24:04 AM  

lifeboat: spawn73: Ring of Fire: I know we had naval assets in the Black Sea for the Olympics. Anyone know if they are still there or if they've left?
Also what is the Turks take on this whole deal. Would they allow NATO ships into the Black Sea.

Why would NATO be involved in this? No one except complete idiots thinks this situation involves NATO or USA in any way or form.

But yeah, I am pretty sure a NATO member like Turkey doesn't have a problem with letting its own farking coalition enter the black sea.

So, if Russia invaded Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?


I don't think Greece likes Turkey much, so Russia wouldn't need to bring any lube.
 
2014-02-27 11:26:47 AM  

Grahor: spawn73: Breaking news in Danish media is that Yanukovych transferred 37 billion dollars given to Ukraine as credit, to unknown foreign accounts at some point during his presidency. Perhaps just before he stepped down?

That's, I think, a grand total of the money stolen. However, by rumors, a third of Ukrainian banking system is owned/controlled by people, who may be considered a part of corrupt Yanukovich's clique; of course they are not waiting till somebody will come to take their banks from them, but are moving, or may be already moved the money, theirs and all the deposits, offshore. Since the deposits are insured by Ukrainian government, it's going to be an interesting situation, when people who made the deposits will come for their money.

So basicly Ukraine is broke right now, and will need monetary assistance within days even.

Yep. Not because Yanukovich personally transferred all the money, but, first of all, the whole "taking aid from Putin in exchange for closer ties" happened, among other things, because Ukraine was already dangerously close to bankrupt, and because when shiat like this happens, first thing that disappears is money.

And nobody is going to give Ukraine billions of dollars in aid. There is no money even to run new elections.


So the banking sector is about to collapse as well. I'm surprised, given this, that there hasn't been a run on the banks?

I think the EU is gearing up for some immidiate assistance. But if Ukraine is defaulting regardless then fark that honestly, what difference would it make.
 
2014-02-27 11:28:57 AM  

QuesoDelicioso: Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.

Why on Earth should we get ourselves involved with this? This is not in any sense our fight.


All in the valley of Derp,
Rode the six hundred
 
2014-02-27 11:41:54 AM  

Geotpf: 4. In short, stop being stupid.


That's not an easy task for him.
 
2014-02-27 12:11:42 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Women hate him for some reason.  Can you imagine?


i seem to recall him racing across the snowy russian landscape in a horse-drawn sleigh, accompanied by a recently deflowered (by him, of course) russian princess clothed only in a bear rug, while being pursued by a gang of murderous cossacks. he then throws the naked woman overboard to lighten the load and get away. women hate him? i can't imagine why...
 
2014-02-27 12:23:37 PM  

danzak: And this is where the danger lies IMO.  If the EU, US, Canada don't come through with financial aid, the country will have no choice but to fall back to the Russians.  I think they're all preparing some sort of packages but these will be need to be significant and long term in order to be effective.

Let the EU put their money where their mouths are, so to speak.


Let's be realists here. EU, as a non-state structure, simply doesn't have this kind of money and doesn't have the right to assign them. Member states are in no position to find money of their own. We are speaking of bailout on par with Greece. Who is going to provide the money? Poland? Yeah, sure. Germany? Imagine their reaction. Italy?

Today the prices for basic goods have changed 3 times (in Odessa). At the morning, $USD was counted, in the shops and warehouses, at 11.50 hryvna for $1. At midday, it was 12.80 hryvna for $1, and then the trade was stopped, at least for imported goods. My friend says "it's like 90ties again". He've spent a lot of money on rice and pasta today. Just in case, you know.

EU is not going to give money. Well, it will give, of course, but too little too late. And EU never promised to feed the country, so it's not as if they are breaking any promises. EU wanted to leave Yanukovich as a figurehead of the government till December elections, exactly to evade that kind of scenario. Polish and German representatives begged Maidan. But noooooo, we want freedom, we want it now, death to the Enemies of the People, d
amn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

phyrkrakr: It's a race between Ukraine becoming an EU member


NOBODY ever promised Ukraine EU membership. EVER. Not gonna happen. For a country to become a EU member it mustto have stable profitable economy, and when the economy is stable and profitable, well, Ukraine will not actually need EU membership.

spawn73: So the banking sector is about to collapse as well. I'm surprised, given this, that there hasn't been a run on the banks?


No, not collapse. Only a third of banks is affected, worst case scenario is inflation, not a collapse. As for run on the banks, to what ends? Banks stopped giving out dollars and euro and act as exchange, and nobody is worried about hryvna deposits. Doesn't matter if they are in cash or in banks, they are guaranteed anyway, the only question is if hryvna be worth paper it's printed on when all is over.
 
2014-02-27 12:36:45 PM  
EU is not going to give money. Well, it will give, of course, but too little too late. And EU never promised to feed the country, so it's not as if they are breaking any promises. EU wanted to leave Yanukovich as a figurehead of the government till December elections, exactly to evade that kind of scenario. Polish and German representatives begged Maidan. But noooooo, we want freedom, we want it now, death to the Enemies of the People, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

I'm not sure where you're getting that from.  They promoted the idea of free elections and supported the calls that Yanukovych has to leave.  The timeline for elections was agreed to with the hopes of stopping the violence, there was never any demand or desire expressed from the EU that he stay on.  Even if he did, the only thing that might have changed would be that he would get his next Russian installment but that wasn't going to happen without Russian demands of clearing Maidan being met, resulting in more violence.  Take a look at the planned operations, it would have been a bloodbath.

My point is that the EU (and most members excluding Germany) were very vocal in supporting the protests and now it's time to help the country out.
 
2014-02-27 12:42:07 PM  
Also about banks: the movement of money is stopped, as my friend say, any way to pay for anything, at least online, is not working. You can pay for water/electricity/etc and that's all. "Maintenance". Not sure about deposits, though. It's about  http://privatbank.ua/ , one of the richest banks in Ukraine, not connected to Yanukovich, supposedly.

Funny video: national guard of the new revolutionary regime asserts his newfound power over the traffic police. All the way to promises of execution. A twerp in power, or how the new "berkut" was born. :) It goes to the point where civilians are trying to protect the police from the freedom fighters. :)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-FrhMfpltM&feature=youtu.be

Now, certainly the traffic police is not without fault. The general order is "to remain in places of dislocation", and they have dared to go to a shop near gas station. But I kind of think it's not exactly the behavior that reassures fears of Eastern Ukraine or calms the situation. I mean, if I was in the country and people like that were walking streets, armed and empowered to shoot, I would be shiatting myself from fear. At least a little less screaming would be nice.
 
2014-02-27 12:46:36 PM  
Grahor:

spawn73: So the banking sector is about to collapse as well. I'm surprised, given this, that there hasn't been a run on the banks

No, not collapse. Only a third of banks is affected, worst case scenario is inflation, not a collapse. As for run on the banks, to what ends? Banks stopped giving out dollars and euro and act as exchange, and nobody is worried about hryvna deposits. Doesn't matter if they are in cash or in banks, they are guaranteed anyway, the only question is if hryvna be worth paper it's printed on when all is over.


Surely an rational actor would want to get any money out, and exchange it for any goods with a lasting value, if rampant inflation is expected.
 
2014-02-27 12:55:38 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: that1guy77: I'm thinking worst-case scenario: Invasion... but am, of course, hoping for the best. Reason being: In addition to the previously mentioned, Russia learned from their previous 2008 adventure in Georgia that the western powers will sit idly -- whoever really started it is besides the point

There is the small matter of exactly how we could do anything militarily.  NATO could do it by invading Poland first, I suppose, but that presents its own problems.  An amphibious invasion at Sevastopol would start a shooting war with Russia.  And nobody in the region is eager to see a foreign army roll over their soil.

So direct military intervention is off the table.


Why would NATO invade Poland which is a NATO member?
 
2014-02-27 12:55:42 PM  

Ring of Fire: I'm not saying that NATO should be involved but if the had to get to involved it would be nice to know we can get in there. Also a few ships sitting in the Black Sea could be a good detergent to russian involvement.


media.treehugger.com

/hammer & sickle essentials?
 
2014-02-27 12:56:00 PM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


Russia is a culture and nation, not 'bad people'. We are not 'led by the biggest pussy in the history of the world'. I'm sorry this isn't your Halo game, but reality involves actual people, is not black and white, and you need to get out of middle school before trying to comment on politics, since you clearly have no respect for the fact that the people you so strongly hate are other human beings.
 
2014-02-27 12:58:35 PM  

danzak: I'm not sure where you're getting that from.



Well, from this one, for example:   http://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&i e =UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fracurs.ua%2Fnews%2F22987-sikorskiy-i-shtaynmayer -otpravilis-na-maydan-obsujdat-soglashenie&act=url

Now, I don't have all the details, but the agreement was achieved for Yanukovich to step down, to revert constitution to 2014 and so on. There was probably a reason why Sikorski and  Frank-Walter Steinmeier thought it's a good enough agreement to try to present it to Maidan and to ask them to follow it.

danzak: My point is that the EU (and most members excluding Germany) were very vocal in supporting the protests and now it's time to help the country out.


They were vocal in supporting freedom and democracy, in stopping brutal fighting and deaths of protesters, and I'm totally with them. But that does not imply that they have to pay for newfound Ukrainian freedom. And my guess is that they will not.

There is no doubt some help will be provided, it's absurd to think they'll do nothing. But I think it will not be nearly enough.
 
2014-02-27 01:07:35 PM  

spawn73: Surely an rational actor would want to get any money out, and exchange it for any goods with a lasting value, if rampant inflation is expected.


It is not known if the rampant inflation will happen; I'm afraid of that, but I'm not sure. Taking money out of banks even 10 days ago meant that you are losing all the money you get as percents, I have no idea how say it in English, in short, you are getting less money than you could.

Right now, I'm not even sure banks giving deposit money away.

Secondly, what exactly goods of lasting value? Food and necessities - you don't need a bank deposit for that. House or land or appartaments - good luck finding anyone selling it. Car or jewelry or gold or $US - _nobody_ is selling that... Goods of lasting value currently are not for sale in hryvnas in Ukraine.

Additionally, people are not exactly rational actors. They hope for the best - if you'll try to buy, say, $US now, and rampant inflation do not happen, and hryvna would return to pre-protest rate - you would lose what, half of everything you own? *shrug*
 
2014-02-27 01:12:02 PM  

Ring of Fire: Also a few ships sitting in the Black Sea could be a good detergent to russian involvement.


You gotta be kidding me. US ships in the Black Sea represent a colossalloss of face for Russia, Putin would have no choice but to move whole Black Sea fleet to the sea, to but out Baltic fleet towards European waters and generally to prepare for full-out war, including mobilization on the borders of Ukraine, if he wants it or not. Don't freakin do it!
 
2014-02-27 01:25:27 PM  

rnatalie: Not too many Americans know much about the Crimea.   Mostly it's famous for its war and its river.    We've all heard of the Crimean War and the Crimea River.


What about the Crimea roll?
 
2014-02-27 01:50:38 PM  

Grahor: danzak: I'm not sure where you're getting that from.


Well, from this one, for example:   http://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&i e =UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fracurs.ua%2Fnews%2F22987-sikorskiy-i-shtaynmayer -otpravilis-na-maydan-obsujdat-soglashenie&act=url

Now, I don't have all the details, but the agreement was achieved for Yanukovich to step down, to revert constitution to 2014 and so on. There was probably a reason why Sikorski and  Frank-Walter Steinmeier thought it's a good enough agreement to try to present it to Maidan and to ask them to follow it.

danzak: My point is that the EU (and most members excluding Germany) were very vocal in supporting the protests and now it's time to help the country out.

They were vocal in supporting freedom and democracy, in stopping brutal fighting and deaths of protesters, and I'm totally with them. But that does not imply that they have to pay for newfound Ukrainian freedom. And my guess is that they will not.

There is no doubt some help will be provided, it's absurd to think they'll do nothing. But I think it will not be nearly enough.


? There's nothing about what you claim in the link. Sure, the agreement that was originally reached was presented to Maidan but my point was that the Foreign ministers present probably accepted Yanukovych staying on because they were focused on stopping the violence and this was a way to do that. At no time did the EU reps suggest that he should stay.

Your last point above I totally agree with, they will help but it will be a little bit at a time when Ukraine really needs something like the Marshall Plan. They are completely without the resources they need to pull themselves out of this.
 
2014-02-27 01:59:44 PM  

FlashHarry: Marcus Aurelius: Women hate him for some reason.  Can you imagine?

i seem to recall him racing across the snowy russian landscape in a horse-drawn sleigh, accompanied by a recently deflowered (by him, of course) russian princess clothed only in a bear rug, while being pursued by a gang of murderous cossacks. he then throws the naked woman overboard to lighten the load and get away. women hate him? i can't imagine why...


I love that scene.  It's vintage Flashman.
 
2014-02-27 02:00:27 PM  

JDJoeE: Why would NATO invade Poland which is a NATO member?


PLEASE GOD MAKE IT STOP
 
2014-02-27 02:59:45 PM  

PsiChick: Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.

Russia is a culture and nation, not 'bad people'. We are not 'led by the biggest pussy in the history of the world'. I'm sorry this isn't your Halo game, but reality involves actual people, is not black and white, and you need to get out of middle school before trying to comment on politics, since you clearly have no respect for the fact that the people you so strongly hate are other human beings.


Hush, the men-folk are talking.
 
2014-02-27 03:04:37 PM  

ReverendJynxed: PsiChick: Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.

Russia is a culture and nation, not 'bad people'. We are not 'led by the biggest pussy in the history of the world'. I'm sorry this isn't your Halo game, but reality involves actual people, is not black and white, and you need to get out of middle school before trying to comment on politics, since you clearly have no respect for the fact that the people you so strongly hate are other human beings.

Hush, the men-folk are talking.


That's cute.
 
2014-02-27 03:16:32 PM  

Grahor: spawn73: Surely an rational actor would want to get any money out, and exchange it for any goods with a lasting value, if rampant inflation is expected.

It is not known if the rampant inflation will happen; I'm afraid of that, but I'm not sure. Taking money out of banks even 10 days ago meant that you are losing all the money you get as percents, I have no idea how say it in English, in short, you are getting less money than you could.

Right now, I'm not even sure banks giving deposit money away.

Secondly, what exactly goods of lasting value? Food and necessities - you don't need a bank deposit for that. House or land or appartaments - good luck finding anyone selling it. Car or jewelry or gold or $US - _nobody_ is selling that... Goods of lasting value currently are not for sale in hryvnas in Ukraine.

Additionally, people are not exactly rational actors. They hope for the best - if you'll try to buy, say, $US now, and rampant inflation do not happen, and hryvna would return to pre-protest rate - you would lose what, half of everything you own? *shrug*


I was considering that exact dilemma in the bus right now (not much to see out the windows).

If I had money, not a fortune, but say a few thousand euros worth. I'd purchase brand name cigarettes. 1 year from now, I bet you can get 90% of the value. People will still be addicted to nicotine, and they store easy.

And, if you're lucky, Ukraine will put taxes on cigarettes to gain some money, maybe under the guise of public health or the like.
 
2014-02-27 03:24:09 PM  

danzak: And nobody is going to give Ukraine billions of dollars in aid. There is no money even to run new elections.

And this is where the danger lies IMO.  If the EU, US, Canada don't come through with financial aid, the country will have no choice but to fall back to the Russians.  I think they're all preparing some sort of packages but these will be need to be significant and long term in order to be effective.

Let the EU put their money where their mouths are, so to speak.


I don't really see how this is in any way EUs fault.

Sure, they offered Ukraine a trade deal. But they didn't preasure them to take it. It was on the table, and Ukraine went with Russia instead.

Then they start protesting in the streets, hardly the fault of EU. However, the EU manage to broker a peace deal, which the protesters sign, and then violate within 24 hours. Again, how is this EUs fault? If the protestors had just kept to the peaceagreement, then Yanukovych wouldn't have fled in the manner he did, and things would likely have proceded in an orderly fashion.

Sure, it would be very nice of the EU if they helped Ukraine financially, but I don't think it has a moral obligation to do so.
 
2014-02-27 04:12:35 PM  

NobleHam: greentea1985: I fully expect Ukraine to split in the next few months with the resulting countries being either Europe-friendly West Ukraine and the Russian client state East Ukraine, or into Ukraine and the new Russian province of Crimea. Now Yanukovich has gone running into the arms of his girlfriend Putin, I expect one of those outcomes, as long as Russia has the sense to not pull a USSR on Hungary. They've lost the Western portion of Ukraine, but the Eastern half still wants close ties with Russia or to be Russian.

Could be, but that sounds like a messy business and I think the EU, NATO, most Ukrainians, and even Russia would like to avoid a split. This Crimea trouble will likely be resolved in a few days, and depending on the level of violence required to resolve it, it may incite more anger from the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine, but probably not enough to create a mass separatist movement.


It'll be ok. This guy knows what to do.
www.cineoutsider.com
 
2014-02-27 04:13:56 PM  
I'm not saying it's their fault, just that they were supportive in their words. Now they need to translate into action or else the situation will deteriorate which benefits nobody.
 
2014-02-27 05:37:56 PM  
Reminds me of the Charge of the Light Brigade

www.davidbordwell.net
Great movie!
 
2014-02-27 05:46:32 PM  

Thunderpipes: ArtosRC: Thunderpipes: Gee, let's gut the military, after all, we will never need it......

Keep your shilling out of this thread. Deep throat the Minuteman inventory elsewhere, chickenhawk.

Blah blah blah, that is what you say.

How many times are we going to ease up, let bad people get stronger? We have the biggest pussy in the history of the world leading the country, and his supporters are even bigger pussies. This will not end well. Another Cold war.


Alright, let's show them Russkies who's got the biggest balls and the biggest stick.
Every US citizen under 30 will do 3 year military service so we have a standing Army of 5 million men and women, no exceptions, no excuses. Also, there will be a 20% national sales tax to fund our $2T wet dream of a military budget.
What? You're not with me? Why do you hate America??
 
2014-02-27 09:49:46 PM  

Cheesehead_Dave: [img.photobucket.com image 400x289]


I bet that killed at the cartographers conference.
 
2014-02-28 01:38:56 AM  

spawn73: If I had money, not a fortune, but say a few thousand euros worth. I'd purchase brand name cigarettes. 1 year from now, I bet you can get 90% of the value. People will still be addicted to nicotine, and they store easy.


That's a possibility, but let's look at the possible drawbacks. Buying cigarettes in bulk from retail shops is not cost-effective, even if they keep enough in stock (which they probably don't, it's quite often you hear "we don't have that brand today"). Buying from wholesalers is better, but you need to know where those are, wholsesalers who sell parties as small as couple of thousands of euro worth.

And how are you going to sell them? Selling them in the streets one pack at a time is hardly a good idea; you need to be a registered business with probably some qualifications for tobacco (depending on regulations) to sell wholesale to shops; and you need to be a business before you buy cigarettes, to have a paper trail.

Generally, it's a lot of fuss for an average person, don't you agree?

Now, if you were a business or business-savvy person already, sure, that's a possibility. But if you were this kind of person, you would likely try to protect your own existing stocks... :)

Today's funny story: my friend's friends work as private guards for Toyota car dealership, I think. So they are on around the clock alert. Okay, so they got some people who broke in, trying to steal the cars, but what now? They don't have the right to arrest or anything, even to detain, but police is not particularly interested. They've disarmed robbers, locked them in the room, call police - police says "wait for now, we don't have personnel, somebody will be there. Some time in the future. Probably. We think." So private guards (not the brightest of bulbs or the most savvy in laws, as you can imagine) are stuck. What do they do with robbers?

My friend wanted to advise them to take care of the robbers by the laws of revolutionary times - you know, execute without court or trial. He has a funny sense of humor like this. :)
 
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