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(Entertainment Weekly)   George R.R. Martin's "Winds of Winter" is finally here. Well, a short paragraph about Tyrion is, anyway   (shelf-life.ew.com) divider line 176
    More: Spiffy, The Winds of Winter, Tyrion Lannister, Tyrion, Game of Thrones, George R. R. Martin  
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5345 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 26 Feb 2014 at 3:26 PM (29 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-27 08:18:36 AM
Is the second eye really black or is it really dark purple?
 
2014-02-27 09:09:33 AM
What I have read about this series caused me to refer to it as "Planet of assholes."
 
2014-02-27 09:14:51 AM

Strega: What I have read about this series caused me to refer to it as "Planet of assholes."


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-02-27 10:09:33 AM
Blasphemous Knave, you are absolutely correct about the current Targaryen colors, but in the Dance of Dragons the dissident branch of the T's adopted green and yellow for their colors.  They were actually called "the greens."

One of Aegon IV's illegitimate daughters also had heterochromic eyes, one of which was green.  The mad king was a direct descendant of AIV, so he might carry that exceedingly rare trait.

I agree that many characters compare Tyrion to his father, but my guess is that's a head fake.  If you look closer, there's room there for a secret history.

When Tywin quits as Hand, it's because Cersei was denied an engagement to the royal heir and Jamie is put on the Kingsgaurd, denying Tyrion his own choice of successor.  Fair enough, right?  Who wouldn't be pissed?

Now suppose that the mad king is Tyrion's father and Tywin knows it.  He's been sitting on the rage from the loss of his wife and having to raise the king's bastard as his own.  He's not the kind of guy to do that -- so I'm guessing he expected a big ticket item in exchange, like the betrothal of his daughter to the heir.  Over the course of years, the mad king not only doesn't comply but also outmaneuvers Tywin to force the heir of Casterly Rock to be his own bastard.  Tyrion finally leaves and is waiting for the opportunity for a military response when the Rebellion breaks out.  Is it any wonder that he's willing to kill the mad king's heirs?

At the time of Cersei's first attempted betrothal she would have been 11-12, like a year and change after Tyion's birth.  Tywin persisted in this for about five years, only stopping when Rhaegar is married and Jaime joined the Kingsgaurd. I'm a little fuzzy on whether Rhaegar married Elia before or after Jamie joined the gaurd, but it would have happened at roughly the same time. (In any case the announcement, not the actual ceremony, would have been the tipping point.)  The rebellion broke out about a year after Jaime joined.

So in the meantime, there is lots of ambiguous stuff.  Genna Lannister tells Tywin that Tyrion is a lot like him, then Tywin won't speak to her for six months.  Makes sense on its own, but makes even more sense if you have this larger backstory going.  Tywin's last words make sense on their own, but make even more sense this way.

It's just a theory.  That's one of the fun parts of these epics.  Some things you can see a long way off, other things just run up and surprise you.
 
2014-02-27 10:56:47 AM

James Rieper: Blasphemous Knave, you are absolutely correct about the current Targaryen colors, but in the Dance of Dragons the dissident branch of the T's adopted green and yellow for their colors.  They were actually called "the greens."

One of Aegon IV's illegitimate daughters also had heterochromic eyes, one of which was green.  The mad king was a direct descendant of AIV, so he might carry that exceedingly rare trait.

I agree that many characters compare Tyrion to his father, but my guess is that's a head fake.  If you look closer, there's room there for a secret history.

When Tywin quits as Hand, it's because Cersei was denied an engagement to the royal heir and Jamie is put on the Kingsgaurd, denying Tyrion his own choice of successor.  Fair enough, right?  Who wouldn't be pissed?

Now suppose that the mad king is Tyrion's father and Tywin knows it.  He's been sitting on the rage from the loss of his wife and having to raise the king's bastard as his own.  He's not the kind of guy to do that -- so I'm guessing he expected a big ticket item in exchange, like the betrothal of his daughter to the heir.  Over the course of years, the mad king not only doesn't comply but also outmaneuvers Tywin to force the heir of Casterly Rock to be his own bastard.  Tyrion finally leaves and is waiting for the opportunity for a military response when the Rebellion breaks out.  Is it any wonder that he's willing to kill the mad king's heirs?

At the time of Cersei's first attempted betrothal she would have been 11-12, like a year and change after Tyion's birth.  Tywin persisted in this for about five years, only stopping when Rhaegar is married and Jaime joined the Kingsgaurd. I'm a little fuzzy on whether Rhaegar married Elia before or after Jamie joined the gaurd, but it would have happened at roughly the same time. (In any case the announcement, not the actual ceremony, would have been the tipping point.)  The rebellion broke out about a year after Jaime joined.

So in the meantime, the ...


The word "greens" doesn't show up in ADWD and I only found references to Aegon wearing black and red, not green and yellow. Shiera Seastar did have the same color eyes as Tyrion. Rhaegar married Elia and had two kids with her by the time that Jamie joined the Kingsguard at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Aerys refused the offer from Tywin five years earlier at the Tourney at Lannisport.

My biggest issue with the whole Tyrion as a Targaryan theory is just the location aspect. We know that Aerys liked Joanna a lot as a prince and took certain liberties during the bedding ceremony, but that timing is all wrong for Tyrion's birth. After that there's no evidence of Joanna leaving Casterly Rock for KL, and Aerys only left KL after Tyrian was born. Quite the opposite actually for Joanna as we know she was at Casterly Rock to place Jamie's bed chambers on the other side of the castle right before she gave birth to Tyrion.
 
2014-02-27 11:08:32 AM

James Rieper: Blasphemous Knave, you are absolutely correct about the current Targaryen colors, but in the Dance of Dragons the dissident branch of the T's adopted green and yellow for their colors.  They were actually called "the greens."

One of Aegon IV's illegitimate daughters also had heterochromic eyes, one of which was green.  The mad king was a direct descendant of AIV, so he might carry that exceedingly rare trait.

I agree that many characters compare Tyrion to his father, but my guess is that's a head fake.  If you look closer, there's room there for a secret history.

When Tywin quits as Hand, it's because Cersei was denied an engagement to the royal heir and Jamie is put on the Kingsgaurd, denying Tyrion his own choice of successor.  Fair enough, right?  Who wouldn't be pissed?

Now suppose that the mad king is Tyrion's father and Tywin knows it.  He's been sitting on the rage from the loss of his wife and having to raise the king's bastard as his own.  He's not the kind of guy to do that -- so I'm guessing he expected a big ticket item in exchange, like the betrothal of his daughter to the heir.  Over the course of years, the mad king not only doesn't comply but also outmaneuvers Tywin to force the heir of Casterly Rock to be his own bastard.  Tyrion finally leaves and is waiting for the opportunity for a military response when the Rebellion breaks out.  Is it any wonder that he's willing to kill the mad king's heirs?

At the time of Cersei's first attempted betrothal she would have been 11-12, like a year and change after Tyion's birth.  Tywin persisted in this for about five years, only stopping when Rhaegar is married and Jaime joined the Kingsgaurd. I'm a little fuzzy on whether Rhaegar married Elia before or after Jamie joined the gaurd, but it would have happened at roughly the same time. (In any case the announcement, not the actual ceremony, would have been the tipping point.)  The rebellion broke out about a year after Jaime joined.

So in the meantime, the ...


And Tywin who does all sorts of horrible things to every other person out there doesn't drown the one who he would hate the most?  Absolutely everything Tywin did to Tyrion no longer becomes a horrible father who hates his deformed son, to some passive aggressive cockold who is too weak willed to go through killing his fake son.
 
2014-02-27 11:47:42 AM
The word "greens" doesn't show up in ADWD and I only found references to Aegon wearing black and red, not green and yellow. Shiera Seastar did have the same color eyes as Tyrion. Rhaegar married Elia and had two kids with her by the time that Jamie joined the Kingsguard at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Aerys refused the offer from Tywin five years earlier at the Tourney at Lannisport.

My biggest issue with the whole Tyrion as a Targaryan theory is just the location aspect. We know that Aerys liked Joanna a lot as a prince and took certain liberties during the bedding ceremony, but that timing is all wrong for Tyrion's birth. After that there's no evidence of Joanna leaving Casterly Rock for KL, and Aerys only left KL after Tyrian was born. Quite the opposite actually for Joanna as we know she was at Casterly Rock to place Jamie's bed chambers on the other side of the castle right before she gave birth to Tyrion.


I mean the "Dance of Dragons" that is the historical civil war in this mythology.  The book is named after that event.  Blacks vs. Greens, winner take all.

Seastar has the eye trait, but doesn't do much else in the history.  It's her dad's genes that I'm interested in.

You're totally right to bring up the location thing, but my sense of it is that we don't know where JoAnna was.  If the mad king had sex with her (of whatever type or frequency), it would make sense that she would leave or that Tywin would send her away --- immediately if it was rape, or after she began to show if it was some other circumstance.

A bigger question would be, why would Tywin let the baby live?  The answer would be he now has an heir to the throne directly under his control.  Even if Tyrion's claim is really tenuous, that's a big deal.

It would also explain why Tywin freaked out when Tyrion married the first time.  He's not just marrying below Lannister standards, but below royal standards.  His marriage vow could literally be worth a fifth of Westeros, but that's out the window if he's already married.  It would also partly explain why Tywin had Tysha gang raped.  No surviving issue could be directly attributed to Tyrion as another heir to the throne.

On the timing, some of these things are ambiguous.  Tywin was initially refused on Cersei, but he continued to approach the king for years.  The timing of Rhaegar's marriage seems a little later than you put it.  The Rebellion lasted like a year and change to two years.  If his son by Elia is a "babe" and breast feeding at the time of the sack of King's Landing, he would have been conceived shortly before the Rebellion broke out.  I'm a little fuzzy on the older sister, but if she was about four or five at the sack of KL, that would mean she was conceived at about the time Tywin left or shortly afterwards.

Something else to think about is why the mad king would have opened the gates to Tywin at the start of the sack.  Pycelle likes to think he convinced the king that Tywin was coming to his aid, but that doesn't make sense.  If you knocked up a guy's wife, would he be coming to save you?  Not this guy, for sure.  If you notice though, the king doesn't say "Open the gates. We're saved!" Instead he says "Open the gates and start napalming everything!"   He wanted Tywin and his army to enter the city and get destroyed with him as one last personal "fark you."
 
2014-02-27 11:56:58 AM

James Rieper: The word "greens" doesn't show up in ADWD and I only found references to Aegon wearing black and red, not green and yellow. Shiera Seastar did have the same color eyes as Tyrion. Rhaegar married Elia and had two kids with her by the time that Jamie joined the Kingsguard at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Aerys refused the offer from Tywin five years earlier at the Tourney at Lannisport.

My biggest issue with the whole Tyrion as a Targaryan theory is just the location aspect. We know that Aerys liked Joanna a lot as a prince and took certain liberties during the bedding ceremony, but that timing is all wrong for Tyrion's birth. After that there's no evidence of Joanna leaving Casterly Rock for KL, and Aerys only left KL after Tyrian was born. Quite the opposite actually for Joanna as we know she was at Casterly Rock to place Jamie's bed chambers on the other side of the castle right before she gave birth to Tyrion.

I mean the "Dance of Dragons" that is the historical civil war in this mythology.  The book is named after that event.  Blacks vs. Greens, winner take all.

Seastar has the eye trait, but doesn't do much else in the history.  It's her dad's genes that I'm interested in.

You're totally right to bring up the location thing, but my sense of it is that we don't know where JoAnna was.  If the mad king had sex with her (of whatever type or frequency), it would make sense that she would leave or that Tywin would send her away --- immediately if it was rape, or after she began to show if it was some other circumstance.

A bigger question would be, why would Tywin let the baby live?  The answer would be he now has an heir to the throne directly under his control.  Even if Tyrion's claim is really tenuous, that's a big deal.

It would also explain why Tywin freaked out when Tyrion married the first time.  He's not just marrying below Lannister standards, but below royal standards.  His marriage vow could literally be worth a fifth of Westeros, but that's out the window ...


A bastard is not a heir to the throne unless legitimized (ala Blackfrye).  "rape baby" would have been thrown down the well w/o a second thought
 
2014-02-27 12:02:16 PM

James Rieper: The word "greens" doesn't show up in ADWD and I only found references to Aegon wearing black and red, not green and yellow. Shiera Seastar did have the same color eyes as Tyrion. Rhaegar married Elia and had two kids with her by the time that Jamie joined the Kingsguard at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Aerys refused the offer from Tywin five years earlier at the Tourney at Lannisport.

My biggest issue with the whole Tyrion as a Targaryan theory is just the location aspect. We know that Aerys liked Joanna a lot as a prince and took certain liberties during the bedding ceremony, but that timing is all wrong for Tyrion's birth. After that there's no evidence of Joanna leaving Casterly Rock for KL, and Aerys only left KL after Tyrian was born. Quite the opposite actually for Joanna as we know she was at Casterly Rock to place Jamie's bed chambers on the other side of the castle right before she gave birth to Tyrion.

I mean the "Dance of Dragons" that is the historical civil war in this mythology.  The book is named after that event.  Blacks vs. Greens, winner take all.

Seastar has the eye trait, but doesn't do much else in the history.  It's her dad's genes that I'm interested in.

You're totally right to bring up the location thing, but my sense of it is that we don't know where JoAnna was.  If the mad king had sex with her (of whatever type or frequency), it would make sense that she would leave or that Tywin would send her away --- immediately if it was rape, or after she began to show if it was some other circumstance.

A bigger question would be, why would Tywin let the baby live?  The answer would be he now has an heir to the throne directly under his control.  Even if Tyrion's claim is really tenuous, that's a big deal.

It would also explain why Tywin freaked out when Tyrion married the first time.  He's not just marrying below Lannister standards, but below royal standards.  His marriage vow could literally be worth a fifth of Westeros, but that's out the window ...


1) When Tyrion marries Tysha, he sees him repeating his father mistake. The mistake he had whipped and run naked through Lannisport.
2) He doesn't kill Tyrion because he is his son. Tywin wouldn't care about killing a possible bastard child of Aerys. At that point, there were at least 5 heirs in line before him, had he been legitimized.
3) I could see him wanting to take Tywin out, but according to Jamie he didn't give the order to blow KL or bring him Tywin's head until hours after the sack started. If he truly wanted Tywin to be suckered in to die, he wouldn't have given both orders.
4) We don't know exactly where Joanna was that entire time, but it makes far more sense than she was at Casterly Rock taking care of small children while Tywin was at KL with Aerys. Tywin brought Cersei to court as soon as she was ready, and Jamie became a page under Crakehall a bit earlier. This was before Cersei was turned down. One of the parents would have stayed behind or they both would have been in KL with the twins.
 
2014-02-27 12:44:35 PM
Who will sail where?
Who will walk where?
Who will eat what foods???
Find out in the next Ice and Fire book!
 
2014-02-27 01:13:54 PM
A bastard is not a heir to the throne unless legitimized (ala Blackfrye).  "rape baby" would have been thrown down the well w/o a second thought

I agree . . . unless there are no other heirs in the way.  So Tywin keeps Tyrion in his back pocket.  Then the first thing he does after Rhaegar dies is kill all the heirs he can lay his hands on.  The last two are in exile -- a threat, but out of consideration for the throne.

Ultimately though, he never has to play the Tyrion card, which you correctly point out is tenuous.  Even if you put a fig leaf on his legitimacy, he'd have him marry someone from one of the winning houses.  Like that's not going to cause a fight.

Just look at the hoops Robert has to go through to prove his blood is good enough!  My grannie was married to a fella that once knew the king's horse . . .  Tyrion's claim could go toe-to-toe with that if he was backed by the Lannister army.

Tywin gets a better foothold when Robert marries Cersei.  His grandkids get a 100% legit path to the crown without a battle.  So Tywin spends the rest of the War of the Five Kings putting Tyrion in high-risk situations to get rid of him.  But the imp just will not die.

I agree that Joanna's location is a hole in this, but we don't know where she was or why.  What you guys are saying makes sense, but that is what is going to make this a twist -- it's an unexpected curve against the lines of the previous plot.  It wouldn't take much to detour her and the kids to the court for a visit, or a wedding, or whatever bit of exposition.

Are you guys buying into the Young Griff subplot?  That guy is going to bite it hard.  He's a total red herring.
 
2014-02-27 01:33:20 PM
I think he is a Targ, Rheagar's son, real enough. But I also think Jon, Tyrion and Danny are from Aery's loins, so he doesn't have a direct claim to the Throne. He is PP.

Aerys and Rhaegar were both doing their own thing to make the prophecies come to life. But The Dragon has Three heads to me means they all come from Aerys.
 
2014-02-27 01:43:29 PM
The other thing is, Tyrion is a Chimera (look it up). At one point Tywin say "I cannot prove you are not my son".
 
2014-02-27 01:46:17 PM

James Rieper: A bastard is not a heir to the throne unless legitimized (ala Blackfrye).  "rape baby" would have been thrown down the well w/o a second thought

I agree . . . unless there are no other heirs in the way.  So Tywin keeps Tyrion in his back pocket.  Then the first thing he does after Rhaegar dies is kill all the heirs he can lay his hands on.  The last two are in exile -- a threat, but out of consideration for the throne.

Ultimately though, he never has to play the Tyrion card, which you correctly point out is tenuous.  Even if you put a fig leaf on his legitimacy, he'd have him marry someone from one of the winning houses.  Like that's not going to cause a fight.

Just look at the hoops Robert has to go through to prove his blood is good enough!  My grannie was married to a fella that once knew the king's horse . . .  Tyrion's claim could go toe-to-toe with that if he was backed by the Lannister army.

Tywin gets a better foothold when Robert marries Cersei.  His grandkids get a 100% legit path to the crown without a battle.  So Tywin spends the rest of the War of the Five Kings putting Tyrion in high-risk situations to get rid of him.  But the imp just will not die.

I agree that Joanna's location is a hole in this, but we don't know where she was or why.  What you guys are saying makes sense, but that is what is going to make this a twist -- it's an unexpected curve against the lines of the previous plot.  It wouldn't take much to detour her and the kids to the court for a visit, or a wedding, or whatever bit of exposition.

Are you guys buying into the Young Griff subplot?  That guy is going to bite it hard.  He's a total red herring.


Look even if he killed all the heirs, and he didn't, a bastard child still would not have had any better claim. The Baratheons were the only others directly descended from the main line of the Targaryans as well. The next claim would have fallen to Robert and his children, Stannis and Shireen, and so on assuming that Visersys and Dany had gone under.

Tywin clearly wanted power and would have seized the throne if there was a power vacuum. The benefits he'd get from having a bastard, dwarf Targaryan instead of just seizing the throne for himself would have been completely minimal. Why have a puppet with no actual claim, especially when the bastard reminds you that your beloved wife was raped by someone you hated and died during his birth, when you can just sit their and guarantee your family's legacy? Also if Tywin had been deadset on exterminating the Targaryans, he'd have sent his fleet and some men to invade Dragonstone when he found out that Aery's still living children had left the capital, which Pycelle would have told them.

Aegon VI is probably going to die, but I think he's a Blackfyre if he's a Targaryan at all.
 
2014-02-27 01:54:57 PM

Clash City Farker: The other thing is, Tyrion is a Chimera (look it up). At one point Tywin say "I cannot prove you are not my son".


Yeah and that's worthless because Tywin also says "You are my son" and "You are not my son" at various points in the series.

Clash City Farker: I think he is a Targ, Rheagar's son, real enough. But I also think Jon, Tyrion and Danny are from Aery's loins, so he doesn't have a direct claim to the Throne. He is PP.

Aerys and Rhaegar were both doing their own thing to make the prophecies come to life. But The Dragon has Three heads to me means they all come from Aerys.


At what point would Aerys have impregnated anyone with Jon? We know Ned took him home. Aerys hadn't left KL since the Tourney at Harrenhal, and Rhaegar left with Lyanna for the ToJ a short time after that. There's a distinct lack of contact between the Lyanna and Aerys. There doesn't seem to have been any contact between Aerys and Ashara Dayne. Selmy would have noted that relationship in his introspective on Ashara Dayne, given that he was the LC of the KG for Aerys.

Frankly I'd believe that Jon was the bastard of the fisherman's daughter theory before I believed he was Aerys' son.
 
2014-02-27 02:08:09 PM
We are led to believe that Rhaegar took her directly to the Tower of Joy. But, I think she was sent there partly to be safe because KL was in trouble and also to give birth. Rhaegar was down south with his boy friend. At one point Aerys laments "where is Rheagar?" This also implies he was at KL at least part of the time since the 'kidnapping'.

Rhaegar races north to fight Robert and die on the Trident, but he stops first at ToJ. The Kings Guard is there guarding Lyanna. Since there are 18 months at least since her disappearance and the end of the war, there is plenty of time where we do not know where she was.
 
2014-02-27 02:15:20 PM

Clash City Farker: We are led to believe that Rhaegar took her directly to the Tower of Joy. But, I think she was sent there partly to be safe because KL was in trouble and also to give birth. Rhaegar was down south with his boy friend. At one point Aerys laments "where is Rheagar?" This also implies he was at KL at least part of the time since the 'kidnapping'.

Rhaegar races north to fight Robert and die on the Trident, but he stops first at ToJ. The Kings Guard is there guarding Lyanna. Since there are 18 months at least since her disappearance and the end of the war, there is plenty of time where we do not know where she was.


And no evidence that she was ever at KL, like not even the slightest. We know she was promised to Robert before the tournament and was in WF till then. Robert was in the Vale at the time. Given that Brandon found out about the kidnapping on the way to his own wedding at Riverrun, she was probably either on her way to RR or at RR when she was "kidnapped" or joined Rhaegar and ran off.
 
2014-02-27 02:20:38 PM

Strega: What I have read about this series caused me to refer to it as "Planet of assholes."


www.troll.me

You're about a day and a half late to the party kitty cat.
 
2014-02-27 04:19:56 PM
Also if Tywin had been deadset on exterminating the Targaryans, he'd have sent his fleet and some men to invade Dragonstone when he found out that Aery's still living children had left the capital, which Pycelle would have told them.

True, but the deaths of the existing heirs were a conscience-shocking event.  Tywin barely got away with it.

Marking the remaining heirs for assassination even years later was controversial, and at that point they were no longer children.  That was as far as Tywin could push his hand.
 
2014-02-27 04:56:15 PM

James Rieper: Also if Tywin had been deadset on exterminating the Targaryans, he'd have sent his fleet and some men to invade Dragonstone when he found out that Aery's still living children had left the capital, which Pycelle would have told them.

True, but the deaths of the existing heirs were a conscience-shocking event.  Tywin barely got away with it.

Marking the remaining heirs for assassination even years later was controversial, and at that point they were no longer children.  That was as far as Tywin could push his hand.


Tywin barely got away with it? Robert smiled when Tywin handed him the babies. Notice Tywin didn't present them to Ned or Jon but everyone. They knew Robert was going to be king. All it cost Tywin was the emnity of Ned Stark. Robert *agreed* that the heirs needed to die, just didn't want to do it himself. Robert wanted Viserys and Dany dead too, but Stannis needed to build a fleet to take Dragonstone and they'd left by then.

No one gave 2 shiats about Viserys being marked for death, if he actually was. He seemed to think that Robert had paid assassins to kill them, but I don't remember anything from any POV aside from his mentioning some type of assassination until Dany is pregnant. Viserys was the beggar king, and would have been a bad one at that. He was definitely his father's son. The only people who objected when Robert was talking about killing Dany were Ned and Barristan. LF, Pycelle, Renly, Varys, and Robert all thought it was a good idea. I don't know where Stannis would have stood on it but would have gone along with it if ordered. He did when he invaded Dragonstone.
 
2014-02-27 07:04:47 PM

qorkfiend: Flab: kronicfeld: Nadie_AZ: So ... another 1000 pages til we find out that none of the characters from book 1 will take the throne?

No one will take the throne. The realm will be fractured into different autonomous territories with an uneasy ceasefire, like it was before the Targaryens arrived.

My money's on Sansa.
- True heir to the north (Assuming Rickon doesn't reappear)
- Soon to be wed to the heir to the vale
- Also currently pretending to be the daughter of the lord of Harrenhall.
- Not doing anything to actually want the job, therefore not in any risk of losing her head, like her dad, brother and (almost) mom.
- A "natural" politician, in the eyes of many, currently in close contact with the best.
- She will warg eventually.

Nope. Jon Snow will eventually emerge as the king. My working theory is that Jon is actually the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark; Ned took him in and told everyone Jon was his bastard to protect him from King Robert, who would have had him killed ("Promise me, Ned"; the promise was to protect the newborn Jon after Lyanna died in childbirth).

Much like Sansa, he's already wargin', he's a natural politician and leader, and he's not doing anything to actually want the job.


This.

I am amazed there are people who have read the book and haven't figured out that Jon Snow is the child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, and that he is Azor Ahai. It's not exactly subtly foreshadowed. The books directly smack you right in the face with these facts. Like when the red woman says to Jon something to the effect "I keep looking into the fire to see visions of Stannis the hero, but all I see if you".
 
2014-02-27 07:27:10 PM

mikefinch: AND WTF WAS WITH THE GLASS CANDLE


The glass candle is Azor Ahai's sword, Lightbringer.
 
2014-02-27 07:29:02 PM

ScaryBottles: If Snow is AAR. Did it ever occur to you he might mot be?


"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow" -Melisandre

He's AAR. Unless R'hllor really likes messing with his priestess.
 
2014-02-27 10:00:42 PM

Thrag: ScaryBottles: If Snow is AAR. Did it ever occur to you he might mot be?

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow" -Melisandre

He's AAR. Unless R'hllor really likes messing with his priestess.


No you think he's AAR. Until you read it on the page its a theory and one predicated largely on the argument "Dany is just too obvious" and literally nothing else except the ramblings a crazy witch who we know already is demonstrably wrong about loads of stuff. Did it ever occur that maybe the flames were trying to warn her of her impending danger if Snow is killed or otherwise taken out of the picture? What is it she says is the first the flames always show her? Maybe you can remind me. Also not for nothing Mel is wrong like a lot.... like a really lot. Like I said to a previous poster write down a pro/con list for Dany and Jon and Stannis if you're really that dim. Afterword count how many times you had to write the words "but if" for each to make them fit the prophesy. Do that and then think about your theory again.
 
2014-02-27 10:32:02 PM

ScaryBottles: Thrag: ScaryBottles: If Snow is AAR. Did it ever occur to you he might mot be?

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow" -Melisandre

He's AAR. Unless R'hllor really likes messing with his priestess.

No you think he's AAR. Until you read it on the page its a theory and one predicated largely on the argument "Dany is just too obvious" and literally nothing else except the ramblings a crazy witch who we know already is demonstrably wrong about loads of stuff. Did it ever occur that maybe the flames were trying to warn her of her impending danger if Snow is killed or otherwise taken out of the picture? What is it she says is the first the flames always show her? Maybe you can remind me. Also not for nothing Mel is wrong like a lot.... like a really lot. Like I said to a previous poster write down a pro/con list for Dany and Jon and Stannis if you're really that dim. Afterword count how many times you had to write the words "but if" for each to make them fit the prophesy. Do that and then think about your theory again.


One other possibility is that Gendry is Azor Ahai.  AA not only is supposed to pull the flaming sword from from the fire, he's the one who forges the sword in the first place.  Who else do we know who can forge a sword?  This also makes Mel's guess that it's Stannis just a near miss instead of being completely wrong, since Gendry is Stannis' nephew.  AA is supposed to be born amidst smoke and salt which sounds like a sweaty blacksmith's shop.  Gendry is 1/2 Baratheon and 1/8th Targaryen, making him a good candidate for kingship.  He just needs to be legitimized.  Then again, we know absolutely nothing about his mother.  It's interesting that on the TV show, Cersei tells Catelyn that before Joffrey was born, Cersei first gave birth to a little black haired boy whom she claims died shortly thereafter.  Or so she says.
 
2014-02-27 11:26:18 PM

Persnickety: ScaryBottles: Thrag: ScaryBottles: If Snow is AAR. Did it ever occur to you he might mot be?

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow" -Melisandre

He's AAR. Unless R'hllor really likes messing with his priestess.

No you think he's AAR. Until you read it on the page its a theory and one predicated largely on the argument "Dany is just too obvious" and literally nothing else except the ramblings a crazy witch who we know already is demonstrably wrong about loads of stuff. Did it ever occur that maybe the flames were trying to warn her of her impending danger if Snow is killed or otherwise taken out of the picture? What is it she says is the first the flames always show her? Maybe you can remind me. Also not for nothing Mel is wrong like a lot.... like a really lot. Like I said to a previous poster write down a pro/con list for Dany and Jon and Stannis if you're really that dim. Afterword count how many times you had to write the words "but if" for each to make them fit the prophesy. Do that and then think about your theory again.

One other possibility is that Gendry is Azor Ahai.  AA not only is supposed to pull the flaming sword from from the fire, he's the one who forges the sword in the first place.  Who else do we know who can forge a sword?  This also makes Mel's guess that it's Stannis just a near miss instead of being completely wrong, since Gendry is Stannis' nephew.  AA is supposed to be born amidst smoke and salt which sounds like a sweaty blacksmith's shop.  Gendry is 1/2 Baratheon and 1/8th Targaryen, making him a good candidate for kingship.  He just needs to be legitimized.  Then again, we know absolutely nothing about his mother.  It's interesting that on the TV show, Cersei tells Catelyn that before Joffrey was born, Cersei first gave birth to a little black haired boy whom she claims died shortly thereafter.  Or so she says.


Well as I said until I read it on a page I only think its Dany theres no way to know. I don't know maybe I am a nut but I drove to NM to attend one of his signings and one thing he said that floored me was that he didn't initially intend for there to be dragons in the story and that his wife had browbeat him into it. The only dragons he had planned on were the targs. I of course came to find out later that this was old news on the boards wonk wonk! But anyway the reason I mention this is because a lot of people really can't get their minds around the cliche fantasy tropes and keep trying to make this whole series more traditional high fantasy than it is. How many times has Martin said he wants to write a real story. He means it and thats what a lot of people seem to "know" but they still don't get it. In the real world if you find a bloody pipe in a dude's car chances are you just found the dude who bludgeoned someone to death earlier. Not the Bludgeoner's sister's cousin's uncles former pool boy twice removed. Dany fits what the general consensus of online fans consider to be genuine clues without any twisting necessary where as every other candidate requires you to massive leaps of logic to fit. Every other candidate without exception. So yes it could be Gendry but I really don't think its very likely. But hey as I said till we see it on the page we don't really know. Besides yours is far from the craziest theory I've heard. Thats where I start lashing out is when people, and not point fingers but there are tons in the Jon Snow fan club who like to pretend their theories are established fact. No lie I literally saw one of them claim that they were right about a character's real motivations (Darkstar) and the direct verbatim quote from Martin that had indeed been the reason for the thread to begin with was wrong. Bible farking truth. Westeros.org is a strange and savage place. If you think the politics tab are here gets nuts check those guys out sometime.
 
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