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(AlterNet)   "It's easy to fall for the hysteria surrounding meth since it's the drug warriors' scapegoat drug of choice, but there is no empirical evidence that meth causes physical deformities, rots teeth or is even close to as addictive as it's made out to be"   (alternet.org) divider line 99
    More: Interesting, empirical evidence, deformities, meth causes, High Price, direct effect, double-blind, poor people, teeth  
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2731 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Feb 2014 at 8:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



99 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-02-26 06:39:48 AM  
There is so much ignorance around the drug it's hard to have rational discussions about it.  Most of the information people have regarding meth is from the 6:00 news.  Current perception of meth is very akin to the perception of pot in the 1950's.

There are plenty of people who use it recreationaly, without abuse and without harming themselves or others -but there is no incentive for those people to stand up and say "hey, look at me, I'm doing it and I'm just fine".  So all the public ever hears about are the newsworthy stories.

/a little history
 
2014-02-26 06:58:06 AM  
it's true, drug addiction doesn't exist, it's just manufactured by the media to keep you scared and watching tv.  meth is a perfectly safe and awesome drug.  the issue here is not whether meth users broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with their friends and families belongings, they did.  but you can't hold a whole drug community responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. for if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole drug community? and if the whole drug community is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our drug institutions in general? I put it to you, fark, isn't this an indictment of our entire american society? well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the united states of america.
 
2014-02-26 07:29:14 AM  

doublesecretprobation: it's true, drug addiction doesn't exist, it's just manufactured by the media to keep you scared and watching tv.  meth is a perfectly safe and awesome drug.  the issue here is not whether meth users broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with their friends and families belongings, they did.  but you can't hold a whole drug community responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. for if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole drug community? and if the whole drug community is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our drug institutions in general? I put it to you, fark, isn't this an indictment of our entire american society? well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the united states of america.



I thought you were pre-law?
 
2014-02-26 07:30:16 AM  

Barfmaker: I thought you were pre-law?


Gah, I meant pre-med...I blew my line. Stupid pre-coffee.
 
2014-02-26 08:36:21 AM  
METH: Maybe once
 
2014-02-26 08:40:59 AM  
I have an ex who worked in a dental clinic for drug users, and methmouth is a thing. It's a terrible thing, and is it just coincidence that meth users have terrible teeth? Hot gases, plus drymouth, and choices do factor in. The meth itself doesn't cause the tooth rot, but it is certainly a factor. Not all by its lonesome, but it is a condition that comes from the usage. Heroin itself isn't a terrible drug, IF you have access to high quality stuff regularly, but that isn't the case with a lot of folks. What we have to do is deal with the realities that face users, and not just focus on aspects of use, but the entire picture.
 
2014-02-26 08:42:17 AM  
Wait, you mean I should be suspect of anything the government says about drugs?  I am shocked.
 
2014-02-26 08:44:35 AM  

hubiestubert: I have an ex who worked in a dental clinic for drug users, and methmouth is a thing. It's a terrible thing, and is it just coincidence that meth users have terrible teeth? Hot gases, plus drymouth, and choices do factor in. The meth itself doesn't cause the tooth rot, but it is certainly a factor. Not all by its lonesome, but it is a condition that comes from the usage. Heroin itself isn't a terrible drug, IF you have access to high quality stuff regularly, but that isn't the case with a lot of folks. What we have to do is deal with the realities that face users, and not just focus on aspects of use, but the entire picture.


Yeah, I'm not going to take a pro-drug article from "Alternet" seriously, particularly when the authority they quote is some guy who claims Crack is OK, too, and all the concern over it is just racism.
 
2014-02-26 08:44:44 AM  
Don't care.
Its a health issue more than a law enforcement one, so the security industry built up around dealing with it should be dismantled in favor of one that deals with addictive behavior and mental illness.
 
2014-02-26 08:49:51 AM  

doublesecretprobation


it's true, drug addiction doesn't exist, it's just manufactured by the media to keep you scared and watching tv. meth is a perfectly safe and awesome drug. the issue here is not whether meth users broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with their friends and families belongings, they did. but you can't hold a whole drug community responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. for if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole drug community? and if the whole drug community is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our drug institutions in general? I put it to you, fark, isn't this an indictment of our entire american society? well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the united states of america.


"Will you tell those a$$holes to shut up??"

"HEY, SHUT UP, YOU A$$HOLES!"
 
2014-02-26 08:50:47 AM  

LesserEvil: Yeah, I'm not going to take a pro-drug article from "Alternet" seriously, particularly when the authority they quote is some guy who claims Crack is OK, too, and all the concern over it is just racism.


It's hard for me to take any "pro drug" article seriously unless they're talking about it in the context of "the war on drugs" being completely pointless and stupid. All drugs and narcotics have addiction factors and side effects or consequences to their use. Obviously, some are more harmful than others, and some are close to benign, but they all have them nonetheless.

I think it's telling that amongst my "druggie" friends that they'll happily pop just about any pill (even though some of them undoubtedly have meth in them), smoke whatever, drink whatever- but as soon as meth comes up it's "I'm never touching the stuff."
 
2014-02-26 08:52:58 AM  
I work in a meth lab, so I'm really getting a kick out of some of these replies...
 
2014-02-26 08:53:42 AM  
All drug possession crimes are political crimes.  All the people convicted of them are political prisoners.
 
2014-02-26 08:55:54 AM  

LesserEvil: hubiestubert: I have an ex who worked in a dental clinic for drug users, and methmouth is a thing. It's a terrible thing, and is it just coincidence that meth users have terrible teeth? Hot gases, plus drymouth, and choices do factor in. The meth itself doesn't cause the tooth rot, but it is certainly a factor. Not all by its lonesome, but it is a condition that comes from the usage. Heroin itself isn't a terrible drug, IF you have access to high quality stuff regularly, but that isn't the case with a lot of folks. What we have to do is deal with the realities that face users, and not just focus on aspects of use, but the entire picture.

Yeah, I'm not going to take a pro-drug article from "Alternet" seriously, particularly when the authority they quote is some guy who claims Crack is OK, too, and all the concern over it is just racism.


I don't think it's that crack and meth are "ok", it's that our response to them is drastically overblown, wasteful and ultimately futile.
 
2014-02-26 08:57:32 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: it's that our response to them is drastically overblown, wasteful and ultimately futile


That's not true.  Do you have idea how many brown people get sent to prison and stripped of their rights thanks to our drug laws?  3 out of 10.

That's a very impressive number.
 
2014-02-26 09:01:47 AM  

grinding_journalist: All drugs and narcotics have addiction factors and side effects or consequences to their use.


Yes, but people don't get as worked up about caffeine, 2-acetoxybenzoic acid, or rofecoxib.
 
2014-02-26 09:01:56 AM  
It's okay, we can now demonize krokodil (and possibly "gravel").

I don't know much about gravel, but the only problem with krokodil is a lack of quality control in the manufacturing process.
 
2014-02-26 09:04:15 AM  

untaken_name: grinding_journalist: All drugs and narcotics have addiction factors and side effects or consequences to their use.

Yes, but people don't get as worked up about caffeine, 2-acetoxybenzoic acid, or rofecoxib.


Caffine helps us survive the 9-5 for our corporate overlords.  Meth does not.
 
2014-02-26 09:05:23 AM  
Also, drunk driving doesn't hurt anyone. Sure, some drunk drivers get into accidents. But, it is the accident itself that causes injuries and death, not the drunk driving. Let's not demonize a perfectly cromulent pastime just because the media likes to link it to something bad.
 
2014-02-26 09:06:42 AM  

LesserEvil: ...the authority they quote is some guy who claims Crack is OK, too, and all the concern over it is just racism...


No, he doesn't. Don't be stupid. Saying that maybe the hysteria over drug abuse in the U.S. is mostly just that: hysteria, is not the same as saying that drugs are a-okay and don't cause any problems.

What are you, Nancy Reagan?
 
2014-02-26 09:07:57 AM  
I'm sure that if you were taking pharmacutical grade benzedrine in a controlled lab study, you'd be just fine. Joe and Sally truck stop, however aren't operating under such circumstances.
 
2014-02-26 09:13:25 AM  

Frederick: There is so much ignorance around the drug it's hard to have rational discussions about it.  Most of the information people have regarding meth is from the 6:00 news.  Current perception of meth is very akin to the perception of pot in the 1950's.

There are plenty of people who use it recreationaly, without abuse and without harming themselves or others -but there is no incentive for those people to stand up and say "hey, look at me, I'm doing it and I'm just fine".  So all the public ever hears about are the newsworthy stories.

/a little history


notsureifserious.jpg
 
2014-02-26 09:15:53 AM  

hammer85: untaken_name: grinding_journalist: All drugs and narcotics have addiction factors and side effects or consequences to their use.

Yes, but people don't get as worked up about caffeine, 2-acetoxybenzoic acid, or rofecoxib.

Caffine helps us survive the 9-5 for our corporate overlords.  Meth does not.


You don't work where I work.
 
2014-02-26 09:16:53 AM  
So the people I know whose lives were ruined while addicted to meth were just falling for media hype? I'm pro basically all legalization and yes most media drug hype is BS but lets not go crazy putting meth and weed in the same category of danger.
 
2014-02-26 09:19:00 AM  

skozlaw: Saying that maybe the hysteria over drug abuse in the U.S. is mostly just that: hysteria, is not the same as saying that drugs are a-okay and don't cause any problems.


i don't live in a region that has a meth problem so it doesn't seem so bad to me.  i have however seen prescription opioids tear more than a few people's lives up, including the death of a friends half-brother.  but it's the tweakers who get all the attention with their scabby faces and meth lab explosions.  joe blow who cleaned out his parent's bank account for a few weeks worth of pills hardly has that kind of flair.
 
2014-02-26 09:20:44 AM  
Time for a little perspective.

12 million Americans have tried meth (3% of the population)
1.5 million are regular users.(less than .5% of the population.

15% of the population in the U.S are considered "problem drinkers" and 5-10% are considered alcoholics.

So let's take away everyone's rights....make it difficult for people to get OTC medicine with pseudoephidrine because SOOO many people are cooking and shooting meth.

Yes, meth is bad....but the ridiculousness of the drug war is that the government uses something that affects such a small percentage of the population to take away freedoms from the rest of us.
 
2014-02-26 09:21:04 AM  

gfid: It's okay, we can now demonize krokodil (and possibly "gravel").

I don't know much about gravel, but the only problem with krokodil is a lack of quality control in the manufacturing process.


Well, when you're talking about drugs that are made with drain cleaner and benzene, "quality" isn't really the primary concern.
 
2014-02-26 09:21:41 AM  
*Concern of the manufacturer, I mean.
 
2014-02-26 09:22:41 AM  
He's right.  Meth is no more dangerous than alcohol.
 
2014-02-26 09:26:11 AM  
I used to put a little speed in my coffee, but I started to get a little twitchy. I switched to decaf.
 
2014-02-26 09:26:15 AM  
If you can restrict yourself to engaging in drugs like meth, crack, heroin, etc. to two or three times a month, then, sure, you're not going to end up with yellow skin and a mouthful of half teeth. But if you're a drug addict and susceptable to not just the chemical addiction but also the physcological/social addicition, you're not going to be doing these things on a restrained, only occaisionally for recreation schedule.
 
2014-02-26 09:31:23 AM  
IIRC that it is not really the meth that screws up teeth and faces but the horrible things that it is cut with.

A little quality control might help.
 
2014-02-26 09:33:33 AM  
Uppers in general are nasty drugs that tend to not end terribly well for anyone.  I would buy that meth isn't necessarily any worse than any other amphetamine, but that's still... not particularly benign.  You have to control your doses pretty carefully on that shiat, it's not down at the bottom of the scale  with weed and LSD harm-wise.
 
2014-02-26 09:36:21 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-02-26 09:38:47 AM  

slayer199: Yes, meth is bad....but the ridiculousness of the drug war is that the government uses something that affects such a small percentage of the population to take away freedoms from the rest of us.


The part that irritates me the most is that they so often use the justification of spillover to back current anti-drug policies. It's not really so much about getting those .5% of users, it's because they commit crimes. The meth labs blow up and hurt people, crackheads mug people or B&E for drug money and cartels engage in violent warfare and drug-smuggling operations

Except the biggest reason all that happens is because you have these dickhead politicians and wanna-be suburban commandos out there escalating everything all the time and forcing people into dangerous black markets. Abusers don't have anywhere to turn for help in most cases and even if they're not abusing to a debilitating extent they can't hold legitimate jobs because of drug testing policies so they turn to stealing. Drug cartels battle internally but they also arm themselves against federal and international agencies that are going to come at them guns blazing so there's the constant arms race between the suppliers and agents. And fark all the people that get caught in the middle of it, right? Hey, if you didn't get your face shot off in a gunfight instigated by law enforcement I'm sure the meth lab next door would have definitely killed you anyway, so it's all good! Blame that on the meth then!

I'm not deluded enough to think that if we legalized drugs today that tomorrow everything would be rainbows and magic sprinkles, but if you're going to outlaw people's personal choices then what the bloody fark do you think is going to happen to the supply chain that enables them?

If a determined dealer can't buy some post-it notes and pens and set up a respectable store front and office space in the business district he's going to buy some machine guns and muscle and start digging tunnels through Chihuahua and West Texas instead, he's not just going to shrug his shoulders and go flip burgers.

Regardless of what the real health and social implications are for drug abusers, you simply have to be a complete idiot to support the "war" against them and their dealers without recognizing that it's based entirely on policies that cannot possibly result in anybody winning and will only ever serve to constantly escalate the inherent conflict it creates.
 
2014-02-26 09:41:34 AM  

skozlaw: LesserEvil: ...the authority they quote is some guy who claims Crack is OK, too, and all the concern over it is just racism...

No, he doesn't. Don't be stupid. Saying that maybe the hysteria over drug abuse in the U.S. is mostly just that: hysteria, is not the same as saying that drugs are a-okay and don't cause any problems.

What are you, Nancy Reagan?


Yeah, pretty sure his main argument is that drug laws were just originated due to stories of Mexicans hopped up on weed, Asians on opium, and the urban folk for crack. His solution was less punishment for drugs cause people turn to drugs when their life sucks, and our puritanical belief system which demands we punish sinners kinda makes it hard to turn those folk into productive members of society. Also it wasn't that crack was okay, so much as it wasn't as addictive as we've been led to believe, has negligible difference from cocaine, and the punishment attached to cocaine is less. It's an interesting read, but I wish he'd spent more time on the neuroscience and less on the racism. But it's hard to fill a book with science and have it get the message across, much easier to pander a human interest story, so I understand why he wrote what he did.
 
2014-02-26 09:44:25 AM  
Yea, meth and drugs are not so bad but DAMN YOU IF YOU EAT AT MCDONALDS!! YOUR BAD DECISIONS ARE AFFECTING MEEEEE!
 
2014-02-26 09:47:18 AM  

hammer85: Caffine helps us survive the 9-5 for our corporate overlords. Meth does not.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you have no farking clue what this drug does.
 
2014-02-26 09:49:07 AM  

Null Pointer: IIRC that it is not really the meth that screws up teeth and faces but the horrible things that it is cut with.

A little quality control might help.


This was what I was thinking as well.

The only recent experience I have had with a tweaker was a couple of summers ago when my neighbors nephew stole my lawnmower ( caught on video and everything ) and that kid had all the symptoms like facial scabs, rotten teeth, and underweight.  But I also remember that when I was a little kid back in the 70's my dad was a long haul truck driver and a number of his friends had reputations for being able to make 25-30 hour runs without stopping to sleep, and they didn't have those issues.

Wasn't pharmaceutical ( quality controlled ) meth in wide spread use back then?
 
2014-02-26 09:52:13 AM  

skozlaw: LesserEvil: ...the authority they quote is some guy who claims Crack is OK, too, and all the concern over it is just racism...

No, he doesn't. Don't be stupid. Saying that maybe the hysteria over drug abuse in the U.S. is mostly just that: hysteria, is not the same as saying that drugs are a-okay and don't cause any problems.

What are you, Nancy Reagan?


This. The anti drug argument instantly becomes a hyperbolic strawman.

Of course drugs have the potential to be harmful, but that potential, for most people, is wildly overstated. And it's been overstated intentionally for really shiatty reasons.
 
2014-02-26 10:01:31 AM  

MayoSlather: This. The anti drug argument instantly becomes a hyperbolic strawman.Of course drugs have the potential to be harmful, but that potential, for most people, is wildly overstated. And it's been overstated intentionally for really shiatty reasons.


Our response to drugs has been pretty crappy, yes.

I'm just not sure what response we should have had instead. Drug use is a classic slippery slope problem; right now, we're putting the Schelling fence at a very early point for many drugs, but I suspect we'd have similar problems no matter where we put the fence.
 
2014-02-26 10:02:45 AM  

Skyd1v: Null Pointer: IIRC that it is not really the meth that screws up teeth and faces but the horrible things that it is cut with.


A little quality control might help.


This was what I was thinking as well.


The only recent experience I have had with a tweaker was a couple of summers ago when my neighbors nephew stole my lawnmower ( caught on video and everything ) and that kid had all the symptoms like facial scabs, rotten teeth, and underweight.  But I also remember that when I was a little kid back in the 70's my dad was a long haul truck driver and a number of his friends had reputations for being able to make 25-30 hour runs without stopping to sleep, and they didn't have those issues.


Wasn't pharmaceutical ( quality controlled ) meth in wide spread use back then?



Yes. It was a different type of amphetamine  but we cracked down on it so they switched to a different type. Which we subsequently cracked down on and now are dealing with the cheap & easy to produce meth
 
2014-02-26 10:05:31 AM  
I forgot to add that Meth is one of the drugs that would benefit the  most from legalization, since low quality control standards are the main reason the drug is a guaranteed health destroyer instead of a risk, and the reason the damned labs are so dangerous.  A couple FDA inspections a year and some QC standards would actually make it a reasonable, albeit not safe as such, drug.

I mean, some of the steps you see in Breaking Bad are for real, the organic washes and the use of phosphorous in cracking... both of those things will outright poison users if they're not filtered out properly and contaminate the final product.
 
2014-02-26 10:23:01 AM  
www.fadedindustry.com
 
2014-02-26 10:28:05 AM  

way south: Don't care.
Its a health issue more than a law enforcement one, so the security industry built up around dealing with it should be dismantled in favor of one that deals with addictive behavior and mental illness.


No; taking the drug is a health issue. Selling the drug is a law enforcement one although I agree that the penal system should NOT be an industry...unless the industry could effectively be penalized itself for repeat offenders (and I don't know how you would do that).

Frederick: There are plenty of people who use it recreationaly, without abuse and without harming themselves or others -but there is no incentive for those people to stand up and say "hey, look at me, I'm doing it and I'm just fine".  So all the public ever hears about are the newsworthy stories.


That's great, because nearly ALL of the meth users I know are missing most of their teeth, are covered in scabs, can't hold a job, are rail thin & want to live in my unheated (in MN) garage. Non of whom had health or mental issues before using. Maybe they are all just the unlucky ones.

Maybe someone could explain to me what "empirical evidence" means exactly. I thought it had something to do with observation.
 
2014-02-26 10:29:10 AM  

Null Pointer: IIRC that it is not really the meth that screws up teeth and faces but the horrible things that it is cut with.


It goes a bit deeper that that.  Meth badly dries out the mouth, causes teeth to grind, and gives users the craving for sweet foods when combined with the ingredients removes the enamel from the teeth and causes severe tooth decay.  It's a combination of those things that gives addicts meth mouth.
 
2014-02-26 10:29:55 AM  

Skyd1v: Null Pointer: IIRC that it is not really the meth that screws up teeth and faces but the horrible things that it is cut with.

A little quality control might help.

This was what I was thinking as well.

The only recent experience I have had with a tweaker was a couple of summers ago when my neighbors nephew stole my lawnmower ( caught on video and everything ) and that kid had all the symptoms like facial scabs, rotten teeth, and underweight.  But I also remember that when I was a little kid back in the 70's my dad was a long haul truck driver and a number of his friends had reputations for being able to make 25-30 hour runs without stopping to sleep, and they didn't have those issues.

Wasn't pharmaceutical ( quality controlled ) meth in wide spread use back then?


Black mollies were pharmaceutical amphetamine, and very good. You just had plenty of energy with no speed jitters. All drugs should be available and legal for adults. What they do with them is their own business.
 
2014-02-26 10:38:45 AM  

happydude45: Skyd1v: Null Pointer: IIRC that it is not really the meth that screws up teeth and faces but the horrible things that it is cut with.

A little quality control might help.

This was what I was thinking as well.

The only recent experience I have had with a tweaker was a couple of summers ago when my neighbors nephew stole my lawnmower ( caught on video and everything ) and that kid had all the symptoms like facial scabs, rotten teeth, and underweight.  But I also remember that when I was a little kid back in the 70's my dad was a long haul truck driver and a number of his friends had reputations for being able to make 25-30 hour runs without stopping to sleep, and they didn't have those issues.

Wasn't pharmaceutical ( quality controlled ) meth in wide spread use back then?

Black mollies were pharmaceutical amphetamine, and very good. You just had plenty of energy with no speed jitters. All drugs should be available and legal for adults. What they do with them is their own business.


I miss black mollies.
 
2014-02-26 10:41:46 AM  

draypresct: MayoSlather: This. The anti drug argument instantly becomes a hyperbolic strawman.Of course drugs have the potential to be harmful, but that potential, for most people, is wildly overstated. And it's been overstated intentionally for really shiatty reasons.

Our response to drugs has been pretty crappy, yes.

I'm just not sure what response we should have had instead. Drug use is a classic slippery slope problem; right now, we're putting the Schelling fence at a very early point for many drugs, but I suspect we'd have similar problems no matter where we put the fence.


We should have a reasonable response that is best for society. A prevention and treatment approach was shown in a pre-drug war study to be the most cost effective and ethical response to drug abuse, and was ignored because the government had an agenda.

We help no one by throwing drug users in jail. Destroying someone's chances of being gainfully employed in an effort to stop them from using drugs is pretty much the definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face. That is to assume that the motivation for drug legislature has ever legitimately been about public health.

If you legalize everything and provide education and affordable treatment programs; you save massive amounts of money, you help people far more, and it cuts the legs out from underneath organized crime. When given the proper information most people tend to make decisions that are healthy and in their long term best interests.

There will always be addicts, and I suppose you could ask, will there be more if drugs are legalized, but when throwing people in jail and creating a criminal culture are the alternatives then that seems like a small price to pay. Also, considering the studies done by the author of the linked article, it suggests that a large percentage of people are merely casual users and walk away unscathed from recreational drug use of even the hardest drugs.
 
2014-02-26 10:52:38 AM  
The drug reduced the amount of time participants slept, but it he didn't keep people up for consecutive days...


That's funny... I watched people stay up for days straight on meth all of the time, I must have been watching them fashion homemade pipes using the lightbulbs from the microwave and stove, and the barrel from a Bic pen so that they could smoke rock salt and then stay up for two days straight playing Super Mario Kart, going out to blow all of the money they had pooled together on more rock salt in the meantime.
 
2014-02-26 10:55:00 AM  

Null Pointer: Skyd1v: Null Pointer: IIRC that it is not really the meth that screws up teeth and faces but the horrible things that it is cut with.


A little quality control might help.


This was what I was thinking as well.


The only recent experience I have had with a tweaker was a couple of summers ago when my neighbors nephew stole my lawnmower ( caught on video and everything ) and that kid had all the symptoms like facial scabs, rotten teeth, and underweight.  But I also remember that when I was a little kid back in the 70's my dad was a long haul truck driver and a number of his friends had reputations for being able to make 25-30 hour runs without stopping to sleep, and they didn't have those issues.


Wasn't pharmaceutical ( quality controlled ) meth in wide spread use back then?


Yes. It was a different type of amphetamine  but we cracked down on it so they switched to a different type. Which we subsequently cracked down on and now are dealing with the cheap & easy to produce meth


Dad told me stories about the pills they had in the military that they handed out like M&Ms that would keep you up for days.
 
2014-02-26 10:57:57 AM  

MayoSlather: A prevention and treatment approach was shown in a pre-drug war study to be the most cost effective and ethical response to drug abuse, and was ignored because the government had an agenda.

Genuine question:
I'm not familiar with this study. Was the treatment entirely voluntary, or was there a court-mandated aspect?

troll:
I believe most people in jail for drug offenses are there for selling, not using. What is your suggested course of action for people selling these drugs? How about if they do not adequately inform the consumers of the effects, or sell to minors (or people otherwise unable to give informed consent)? Throwing these people in jail destroys their "chances of being gainfully employed."
/troll
 
2014-02-26 10:58:09 AM  
...Alcohol...
 
2014-02-26 11:00:42 AM  
Before:

img4.wikia.nocookie.net

After:

4.bp.blogspot.com

/meth
//not even once
 
2014-02-26 11:14:58 AM  

hubiestubert: I have an ex who worked in a dental clinic for drug users, and methmouth is a thing. It's a terrible thing, and is it just coincidence that meth users have terrible teeth? Hot gases, plus drymouth, and choices do factor in. The meth itself doesn't cause the tooth rot, but it is certainly a factor. Not all by its lonesome, but it is a condition that comes from the usage. Heroin itself isn't a terrible drug, IF you have access to high quality stuff regularly, but that isn't the case with a lot of folks. What we have to do is deal with the realities that face users, and not just focus on aspects of use, but the entire picture.


It makes you grind your teeth pretty bad.  That plus a poor diet, plus bad hygiene....
 
2014-02-26 11:20:29 AM  

draypresct: MayoSlather: A prevention and treatment approach was shown in a pre-drug war study to be the most cost effective and ethical response to drug abuse, and was ignored because the government had an agenda.
Genuine question:
I'm not familiar with this study. Was the treatment entirely voluntary, or was there a court-mandated aspect?

troll:
I believe most people in jail for drug offenses are there for selling, not using. What is your suggested course of action for people selling these drugs? How about if they do not adequately inform the consumers of the effects, or sell to minors (or people otherwise unable to give informed consent)? Throwing these people in jail destroys their "chances of being gainfully employed."
/troll


I don't know the specific details of the study. It was done by the army and the RAND corporation in the Nixon era if you want to look it up.

About 80% of drug offenders are in jail for possession, not intent to sell.

And selling to minors is largely a product of the drug war, most legit businesses won't sell to minors.  However some will still be jailed, there is no absolute fix, but the problem mostly rights itself by a prevention and treatment approach.
 
2014-02-26 11:32:57 AM  
I assure you, "mefmouf" is definitely real. I say this as a resident of the neighboring town that's been on 20/20 on 3 separate occasions (I believe) for meth, and the guy who got busted with the largest amount in my states history lived 1/4 mile from me.

23 lbs, biatches.
 
2014-02-26 11:41:17 AM  
Drug crimes are less dangerous to our society than financial crimes.  A drug addicted person ruins the lives of 5-10 people at most at their very worst.  A power addicted banker can ruin the lives of millions of people by disrupting the economy and causing mass job losses and foreclosure.  But we only take the assets of the drug addict and jail him and give higher profits to the banker and don't bother filing charges.
 
2014-02-26 11:49:17 AM  

rev. dave: Drug crimes are less dangerous to our society than financial crimes.  A drug addicted person ruins the lives of 5-10 people at most at their very worst.  A power addicted banker can ruin the lives of millions of people by disrupting the economy and causing mass job losses and foreclosure.  But we only take the assets of the drug addict and jail him and give higher profits to the banker and don't bother filing charges.


Sorry to piss on your soapbox but I think most people know that has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with who's running the show.  Bankers don't typically break the law because if they want to do something illegal they change the law to make it legal, then go do it.  Your toothless methhead doesn't have that access.  News flash:  The average voter doesn't care for either, and it doesn't make a lick of difference.

So, you know, if you're expecting a bunch of people to leap out of their chairs and cry, "ZOUNDS!  He's right; we need to wake up and take to the streets!" then I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.
 
2014-02-26 11:58:27 AM  
What good can come of you using any drug not given to you by a medical professional? Meth is illegal the same reason why speeding is illegal it can harm not only you but others.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/

Is this the beginning of the slippery slope?
 
2014-02-26 12:02:57 PM  

alice_600: What good can come of you using any drug not given to you by a medical professional? Meth is illegal the same reason why speeding is illegal it can harm not only you but others.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/

Is this the beginning of the slippery slope?


Then why isn't alcohol or tobacco illegal?  They both harm others as well as the user (drunk drivers, second hand smoke).
 
2014-02-26 12:14:36 PM  

alice_600: What good can come of you using any drug not given to you by a medical professional? Meth is illegal the same reason why speeding is illegal it can harm not only you but others.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/

Is this the beginning of the slippery slope?


Which is why guns, knives, cars, pool chemicals, and Justin Bieber's music are also all illegal.
 
2014-02-26 12:23:00 PM  
The method of delivery greatly affects its addictiveness. Pills < snorting < smoking < mainlining.
 
2014-02-26 12:34:20 PM  

alice_600: What good can come of you using any drug not given to you by a medical professional? Meth is illegal the same reason why speeding is illegal it can harm not only you but others.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/

Is this the beginning of the slippery slope?


I don't know...are you willing to do meth if it was legal? I'm not.

Some people here on fark have admitted to using it, however most people here have no interest in using it. The general public tends to feel the same way. So we're keeping something illegal at great costs to the taxpayers and the users themselves, all out of what is mostly an irrational fear of a drug addled society.

Again, if you regulate and manage addiction it will work a lot better than a drug war/incarceration option.
 
2014-02-26 12:37:34 PM  

socodog: I'm sure that if you were taking pharmacutical grade benzedrine in a controlled lab study, you'd be just fine. Joe and Sally truck stop, however aren't operating under such circumstances.


I'm on prescribed lorazepam and yeah, Big Pharma is good with quality control. Same with their modafinil, aka legal speed. Too bad I had to go crazy to get scrips, but you make the best of what you've got.
 
2014-02-26 12:41:20 PM  

MayoSlather: Again, if you regulate and manage addiction it will work a lot better than a drug war/incarceration option.


Smacks of effort, can't we just blame minorities instead?
 
2014-02-26 01:11:06 PM  

Bootysama: So the people I know whose lives were ruined while addicted to meth were just falling for media hype? I'm pro basically all legalization and yes most media drug hype is BS but lets not go crazy putting meth and weed in the same category of danger.


No shiat.  Weed is for shifty, jobless soap dodgers.  Amphetamines are for fighter pilots.
 
2014-02-26 01:11:27 PM  

SmackLT: METH: Maybe once


METH: 50g for $5
 
2014-02-26 01:29:21 PM  

unyon: Bootysama: So the people I know whose lives were ruined while addicted to meth were just falling for media hype? I'm pro basically all legalization and yes most media drug hype is BS but lets not go crazy putting meth and weed in the same category of danger.

No shiat.  Weed is for shifty, jobless soap dodgers.  Amphetamines are for fighter pilots.


Try them together. Instead of wispy and ephemeral weed thoughts darting up, over, and through your mind, you have the ability to crystallize them and really focus on the inanity in your head. Pretty fun way to waste a Sunday afternoon.

/good drugs are fun
//definitely have a job
 
2014-02-26 01:35:43 PM  
Whatever,

Walk around the Missouri State Fair for a half hour...

YIKES!
 
2014-02-26 01:50:30 PM  
Meth isn't what's causing physical deformities. Smoking meth cut with industrial cleaners and other shiat like that because it's made by a hillbilly in a kitchen? Yeah, that will fark you up.
 
2014-02-26 01:54:26 PM  

Mikey1969: That's funny... I watched people stay up for days straight on meth all of the time


Since you were obviously up for several days at a time to observe them, you're obviously a tweaker and your observations are invalid.

Then again if your observations are invalid, you aren't a tweaker who was kept up for several days by meth.

/kidding about you being a tweaker; I found the contradiction amusing
 
2014-02-26 01:57:17 PM  

bamfurlong: Try them together. Instead of wispy and ephemeral weed thoughts darting up, over, and through your mind, you have the ability to crystallize them and really focus on the inanity in your head. Pretty fun way to waste a Sunday afternoon.


Are you trying to say that meth allows you to coalesce the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension?
 
2014-02-26 02:10:54 PM  

AndreMA: Mikey1969: That's funny... I watched people stay up for days straight on meth all of the time

Since you were obviously up for several days at a time to observe them, you're obviously a tweaker and your observations are invalid.

Then again if your observations are invalid, you aren't a tweaker who was kept up for several days by meth.

/kidding about you being a tweaker; I found the contradiction amusing


Actually, it was get home from work, they'd go buy their shiat, smoke it, sit down and start playing the game. I would eventually go to bed, get up in the morning, they'd all be in the same clothes, still up, and still playing the game, I'd go to work, come home, same story, I'd go to bed, same story, I'd get up the next day, same thing, and so on. One guy actually didn't live there, and this happened more than once. It's not like some weekends, the guy who didn't live there would leave, and it's not like some weekends, the ones who DID live there would be in different clothes. Same clothes all weekend long, in front of the TV in the corner where the consoles were hooked up, playing endless hours and hours of Super Mario Kart... Plus, I usually asked them 'Holy crap, are you guys ALL still up?', to which I got a 'Yeah, dude, 3 days straight' in response.

Oh, and did I mention that farking thing was right outside my bedroom, so I would randomly wake up to it throughout the night as well?

Good times...
 
2014-02-26 02:14:28 PM  
Here's my experience. Crack is vastly oversold. It's just farkin' cocaine. The only difference is, it wears off a little more quickly. Since, for whatever reason, I'm not a huge fan of coke, that's a plus. Not enough of a plus that I had any reason to consider ever smoking it more than once. I've watched people blow their entire paychecks on it over the course of a couple of days, so YMMV. Meth was more difficult. I did find myself using that too often, and it was work and unpleasantness to cease use. It created a euphoria as it came on, which would last for maybe as much as an hour. Then you just had another 7 or 8 of just being kinda jittery. It made me noticeably dumber, more scattered, and seemed to reduce impulse control. Yes, it does ruin people's teeth. Probably in part because they tend to grind them while high, and partly because it creates dry mouth, which is very hard on teeth. It also seems to create some neurological changes, to the point where you can often tell someone was a heavy meth consumer years after they've ceased poisoning themselves. Also note that the study in the article was dosing subjects with a dose between nothing and 50mg. I knew people who routinely shot quarters. Theoretically 250 mg. Even if it's not terribly good dope, maybe only 25% pure, that still exceeds the dose in their study by 25%.
 
2014-02-26 03:20:05 PM  

MayoSlather: troll:I believe most people in jail for drug offenses are there for selling, not using. What is your suggested course of action for people selling these drugs? How about if they do not adequately inform the consumers of the effects, or sell to minors (or people otherwise unable to give informed consent)? Throwing these people in jail destroys their "chances of being gainfully employed."/trollI don't know the specific details of the study. It was done by the army and the RAND corporation in the Nixon era if you want to look it up. About 80% of drug offenders are in jail for possession, not intent to sell.


Thanks for the further description of the Nixon-era study. I'll have to look that up when I've got the chance.

You were very clearly talking about users, not dealers, which is why my comment about dealers was 90% troll. I agree that if drugs were legal, dealers who sell to kids could be handled under other laws.

A nitpick with your post:
According to your link, 80% of arrests, not prisoners, were for possession only.

Taking a look at their source for this statistic, table 3 of the PDF shows that in 2011, 16.6% of the sentenced prisoners under state jurisdiction were for drug offences: 4.1% for possession + 12.5% for "other" (includes trafficking).

This supports my original thought that most people in jail for drug offences are there for selling, not using. Coupling this with the 80% statistic earlier, I think this means that a lot of people arrested for possession are not going to jail. Maybe they're being sentenced to treatment + probation; something I think we might both support.
 
2014-02-26 03:23:52 PM  

slayer199: Time for a little perspective.

12 million Americans have tried meth (3% of the population)
1.5 million are regular users.(less than .5% of the population.



i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-26 03:25:23 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [img.fark.net image 850x391]


Yeah I'm with you. We should keep it legal so we don't have to pay over $20.
 
2014-02-26 03:30:56 PM  

dragonchild: rev. dave: Drug crimes are less dangerous to our society than financial crimes.  A drug addicted person ruins the lives of 5-10 people at most at their very worst.  A power addicted banker can ruin the lives of millions of people by disrupting the economy and causing mass job losses and foreclosure.  But we only take the assets of the drug addict and jail him and give higher profits to the banker and don't bother filing charges.

Sorry to piss on your soapbox but I think most people know that has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with who's running the show.  Bankers don't typically break the law because if they want to do something illegal they change the law to make it legal, then go do it.  Your toothless methhead doesn't have that access.  News flash:  The average voter doesn't care for either, and it doesn't make a lick of difference.

So, you know, if you're expecting a bunch of people to leap out of their chairs and cry, "ZOUNDS!  He's right; we need to wake up and take to the streets!" then I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.


My soapbox already smells and you can tell that to the people without jobs if they care.  Laws barely matter anymore since money can buy you what you want.   Meth heads would find other ways to ruin their lives anyway.  The real point I was making was that our society has terrible priorities and we are paying for it.
 
2014-02-26 03:55:58 PM  

Mikey1969: AndreMA: Mikey1969: That's funny... I watched people stay up for days straight on meth all of the time

Since you were obviously up for several days at a time to observe them, you're obviously a tweaker and your observations are invalid.

Then again if your observations are invalid, you aren't a tweaker who was kept up for several days by meth.

/kidding about you being a tweaker; I found the contradiction amusing

Actually, it was get home from work, they'd go buy their shiat, smoke it, sit down and start playing the game. I would eventually go to bed, get up in the morning, they'd all be in the same clothes, still up, and still playing the game, I'd go to work, come home, same story, I'd go to bed, same story, I'd get up the next day, same thing, and so on. One guy actually didn't live there, and this happened more than once. It's not like some weekends, the guy who didn't live there would leave, and it's not like some weekends, the ones who DID live there would be in different clothes. Same clothes all weekend long, in front of the TV in the corner where the consoles were hooked up, playing endless hours and hours of Super Mario Kart... Plus, I usually asked them 'Holy crap, are you guys ALL still up?', to which I got a 'Yeah, dude, 3 days straight' in response.

Oh, and did I mention that farking thing was right outside my bedroom, so I would randomly wake up to it throughout the night as well?

Good times...


The first rule of living with speed freaks: just don't. Your quality of life would be better under a farking bridge.
 
2014-02-26 03:56:03 PM  
...And pushing someone off of a cliff doesn't kill them.
 
2014-02-26 03:59:15 PM  

Yezi Farded: slayer199: Time for a little perspective.

12 million Americans have tried meth (3% of the population)
1.5 million are regular users.(less than .5% of the population.


[i.imgur.com image 400x400]


LOL.
 
2014-02-26 04:11:14 PM  

s2s2s2: ...And pushing someone off of a cliff doesn't kill them.


That really would depend on how they were kitted out, the height of the cliff, what was at the bottom.

Lots of factors, it`s not so cut and dried.

There are situations where your statement is true.

I`m not sure of your point though, what was it?
 
2014-02-26 04:24:19 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: All drug possession crimes are political crimes.  All the people convicted of them are political prisoners.


I knew I had you favorited for a reason.
 
2014-02-26 04:27:20 PM  

forgotmydamnusername: The first rule of living with speed freaks: just don't. Your quality of life would be better under a farking bridge.


Yeah, that was mid-90s-ish... Ironically one of the guys has since morphed into the biggest conservative Tea Party Douchebag I've met. It made him mad enough when I brought up some of the contradictory stuff he said back then, I wonder how his 'fark the druggies' buddies would appreciate his past exploits?

Oh well, that's why I don't live with roommates like that anymore...

Well, then again, there IS my alcoholic brother in law who moved in "for two years" 5 1/2 years ago... Not anywhere near as bad, though.
 
2014-02-26 04:36:40 PM  

dready zim: s2s2s2: ...And pushing someone off of a cliff doesn't kill them.

That really would depend on how they were kitted out, the height of the cliff, what was at the bottom.

Lots of factors, it`s not so cut and dried.

There are situations where your statement is true.

I`m not sure of your point though, what was it?


When you jump off a meth cliff, you may lose sight of other needs. Sure, the meth may not fark you up, but it's certainly the reason so many people end up so farked up.
 
2014-02-26 06:57:05 PM  
Every meth user that I have known have rotten teeth and huge dental problems.  It's not a myth.

As for the sheer addictive qualities, meth has the second highest recidivism rate.  Tobacco is the king for addiction.
 
2014-02-26 06:59:28 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [img.fark.net image 850x391]


I am SO going to Hell.  I belly laughed at that.
 
2014-02-26 07:17:26 PM  

van1ty: Wait, you mean I should be suspect of anything the government says about drugs?  I am shocked.


Listen to the dealers instead. You can trust them.
 
2014-02-26 07:33:57 PM  

hammer85: untaken_name: grinding_journalist: All drugs and narcotics have addiction factors and side effects or consequences to their use.

Yes, but people don't get as worked up about caffeine, 2-acetoxybenzoic acid, or rofecoxib.

Caffine helps us survive the 9-5 for our corporate overlords.  Meth does not.


Half the people in Thailand use it for this purpose.

No matter what you think about any drug, prohibition only makes it worse.
 
2014-02-26 08:05:39 PM  
I'm calling BS on this one. I personally know three people that became addicted to meth, one of them very young, and they are not the same people anymore. Each of them drank and occasionally smoked weed, but it was meth that really screwed them up.
 
2014-02-26 09:50:27 PM  

error 303: If you can restrict yourself to engaging in drugs like meth, crack, heroin, etc. to two or three times a month, then, sure, you're not going to end up with yellow skin and a mouthful of half teeth. But if you're a drug addict and susceptable to not just the chemical addiction but also the physcological/social addicition, you're not going to be doing these things on a restrained, only occaisionally for recreation schedule.


This. Did powdered coke about a half dozen times a year, and never more than twice in a month. Who cares? Social use.
 
2014-02-26 09:52:36 PM  

slayer199: 12 million Americans have tried meth (3% of the population)
1.5 million are regular users.(less than .5% of the population.


Gotta ask, were these two stats gathered in the same survey? Because if they aren't, they'd include people who have died from drug use.
 
2014-02-26 11:39:11 PM  

MayoSlather: If you legalize everything and provide education and affordable treatment programs


You mean like with alcohol?

Tell me, what do you see as the fark user's attitude to any drug and alcohol awareness/harm reduction programme or organisation at all?  They mock it, like the teenagers they are at heart.

You have far too much faith in humanity.  You think legalising meth and then teaching kids at school that they should try to not use it much because it's bad for you will work any better than that system has for alcohol?  Highly unlikely.
 
2014-02-27 02:11:34 AM  
the old ether based biker crank wasn't so bad. it got weird around '96 with the anhydrous 'nazi' method and then the red rock phosphorous. $25 and you could jitter and jive for three days straight or more.

after that got really, really shadow people window peeping carpet surfing weird, man


have you seen the blue lights?
 
2014-02-27 05:09:14 AM  

Omahawg: the old ether based biker crank wasn't so bad. it got weird around '96 with the anhydrous 'nazi' method and then the red rock phosphorous. $25 and you could jitter and jive for three days straight or more.

after that got really, really shadow people window peeping carpet surfing weird, man


have you seen the blue lights?


I dunno about that. There were these "burnouts" I used to see mumbling odd things at no one in particular on Haight Street in the '70s and '80s. Seem to be less of them now, and more regular, ordinary winos and sleaze bags. Or maybe I just don't know, because I hardly ever go near Haight St. Why would you? It's exactly the same as Fisherman's Wharf, for all practical purposes. Anyway, conventional wisdom was that those people were "acid casualties". However, old hippies will tell you the burnouts most likely got there by using lots of speed. It's all bad. Always was. Too often sloppily labbed, cut with weird shiat. Vile. Even if it were pure, it would still be unhealthy. Another case in point, Phillip K. Dick went crazy long before '96. By then he'd been dead over a decade.
 
2014-02-27 03:55:53 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [img.fark.net image 850x391]


She still looks pretty good, for a girl. Even with her sunken eyes I wouldn't think she'd have to give that lumberjack fifteen bucks to fill her needs.
 
2014-02-27 04:22:01 PM  
Isnt this the same for all drug scares.  Weed then LSD then crack then X now Meth.  All the while alcohol kills more than all the others combined.

Its almost like we enjoy being lied to.
 
2014-02-27 08:24:18 PM  

pdee: Isnt this the same for all drug scares.  Weed then LSD then crack then X now Meth.  All the while alcohol kills more than all the others combined.

Its almost like we enjoy being lied to.


The interesting thing is that by exaggerating the effect of whatever drug they'd most like to suppress at the moment, they actually end up promoting it. Then, when they discover they've been lied to, the kids tend to ignore legit information about the drawbacks of other recreational chemicals. The drug warriors are perpetuating what they claim to be trying to stop.
 
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