If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Mustang News)   University demands guest list of off campus parties, while banning hard alcohol and drinking games there, also plans to force students to live on campus for first two years. Back tracks after hearing about things called 1st and 4th Amendments   (mustangnews.net) divider line 24
    More: Asinine, Cal Poly, Associated Students Inc., students' union, Dang Guo, student leader, Cesar Chavez  
•       •       •

9037 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2014 at 11:22 PM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2014-02-25 07:33:32 PM
6 votes:
I don't know about the whole list, but I'm pretty sure that there's been colleges for a long time who require their freshmen to live on-campus if they're not commuting from home.

I also seem to remember that some dorms/apartments on campus were not available to freshmen.
2014-02-26 12:05:02 AM
2 votes:

sprgrss: and 4th amendment have nothing to do with this, dudebro.


Actually it does when the school is requiring that a list of all students attending fraternity parties be handed over to administration the next day.


As for on campus living requirements are standard. Sure. For freshman. Maybe. But 2nd years? And Transfers? hahahaha. Yeah find me an example, please.

udhq: Subby needs to read the part of the first amendment about freedom of association. No students are forced to attend this college, but when they do, they choose to abide by its rules. It's no different than choosing to join a church that restricts behavior in such a way that it would be unconstitutional if the government did it.


Actually, as a publicly funded institution, they actually don't have right right to make rules abridging the bill of rights. Your third sentence is correct... a church isn't publicly funded (i.e. it is not the government). The school, however, is publicly funded (i.e. it is the government) Good try though.
2014-02-25 11:57:35 PM
2 votes:
Subby needs to read the part of the first amendment about freedom of association.  No students are forced to attend this college, but when they do, they choose to abide by its rules.

It's no different than choosing to join a church that restricts behavior in such a way that it would be unconstitutional if the government did it.
2014-02-25 11:56:23 PM
2 votes:

Ikam: Also, as a public institution, this will prove problematic.  Private schools can be as weird and despotic as they want depending on whether or not accept federal funding for financial aid, etc. (for frightening examples, see those weird right-wing Christian 'colleges'), but public schools?  Not so much.


You do not have a right either under the law or the Constitution to a post secondary education. PERIOD. A post secondary institution has a lot of liberty to do what it wants regardless of whether its public or private status. The actual legal distinction between them is minimal to non-existent. Honestly, the headline was written by some 20 year old libertarian nutcase who understands nothing about higher education, the law, or the Constitution.
2014-02-25 09:36:32 PM
2 votes:

Flab: And people go for it? Unless that college was in the middle of nowhere, and only accessible by a magical train, I don't see how that would make sense.


Kind of have to, or they won't admit you or will kick you out. Also, there are colleges/universities that forbid freshmen from having a car.

Of course, there are ways around this if you're willing to fight or otherwise raise a stink. My school was one that mandated all freshmen live on campus, and I was told there were no exceptions. I told them I had a full time job, had already been living on my own for 6+ months, and would not live on campus nor buy a meal plan. And you know what? I kept living on my own and buying my food wherever the hell I wanted. I was there on scholarship, so that might have helped me out. I don't really know. But it is possible. It just depends on how much of a fight you are willing to put up.
2014-02-25 08:50:06 PM
2 votes:

Flab: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: but I'm pretty sure that there's been colleges for a long time who require their freshmen to live on-campus if they're not commuting from home.

And people go for it?  Unless that college was in the middle of nowhere, and only accessible by a magical train, I don't see how that would make sense.


It's a fairly common policy.  Usually it works by the school requiring you to either prove that you're living at and commuting from home, or pay for a dorm room.  Now, you could just pay for the dorm room and then live somewhere else, and I knew students who did that, but most people aren't going to waste money like that.

Also, I freely admit that I don't get Greek Life to begin with, but I don't see how a college can decide who can drink how much alcohol with whom outside of their property.

If they're registered student organizations the school can have sway over what goes on even if it isn't technically on campus.  Rules regulating official fraternity/sorority parties aren't unprecedented.  Of course, it's hard for them to police unofficial gatherings that aren't technically being hosted by the group.

At the end of the day it's CYA for the school - they don't want someone to die from alcohol poisoning, get sexually assaulted, or drive drunk and hit somebody in any way related to the school officially.  If it happens at a party involving students at the school, but held off campus and not under the banner of any organization recognized by the school, it's easier for the school to distance itself.
2014-02-25 08:36:09 PM
2 votes:

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: but I'm pretty sure that there's been colleges for a long time who require their freshmen to live on-campus if they're not commuting from home.


And people go for it?  Unless that college was in the middle of nowhere, and only accessible by a magical train, I don't see how that would make sense.

Also, I freely admit that I don't get Greek Life to begin with, but I don't see how a college can decide who can drink how much alcohol with whom outside of their property.
2014-02-26 10:09:54 AM
1 votes:
In case it hasn't been posted yet, Flanagan's got a very interesting piece in The Atlantic about fraternities, liability, universities, drinking, and safety:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/03/the-dark-power-o f- fraternities/357580/
2014-02-26 08:30:18 AM
1 votes:

brimed03: proteus_b: The Irresponsible Captain: I have no problem with the on-campus living. It's pretty common. Alcohol can be a problem, but I recall a push a few years ago by university presidents to return the drinking age to 18 to reduce the problems they have with underage drinking.

The main problem, depending on where the school is located, is that they charge you much more money to live on campus than you would have to pay to live in similar conditions off campus. And then stick their nose in your business anyways.

Except that there are no "similar conditions" off campus.  You're overlooking the things you get in campus housing that do not come with that apartment on J-Street.  For example: unlimited utilities, including water, electricity, and usually cable and internet (which itself is usually faster on campus than anything you'll pay for off-campus).  Also: multiple layers of security; a dedicated police station on campus, regular patrols of your "neighborhood" (often both car and foot), usually front-desk security with access restricted to photo-ID carrying residents and their guests, and professional administrators (RDs) and paraprofessional staff members (RAs) doing safety checks and rule enforcement.  Also: usually, far better fire safety building design, equipment, and enforced policies.  Also: professional (RD) and paraprofessional assistance/intervention with domestic disputes and complaints about neighbors.  Also: paraprofessional programming about health and wellness, studying, local and regional entertainment, and community building.  Also: close access to prepared and nutritious meals (meal plans are usually required with on-campus housing) that you do not have to cook.  Also....


CSB - I went to law school during the real estate boom.  Oncampus housing was incredible.  The school was on the site of a former luxury hotel, so the "dorms" were basically a large hotel room that you had to yourself.  Free maid service, wifi, utilities, etc.. No restrictions on anything, although I guess if I'd thrown a party during finals the guards would've come by.  My room opened out onto a palm tree-lined courtyard with a pool where I'd drag a cooler on the weekends. Oncampus gym.  All for $580 a month.  In Tampa Bay.
2014-02-26 04:37:19 AM
1 votes:

proteus_b: The Irresponsible Captain: I have no problem with the on-campus living. It's pretty common. Alcohol can be a problem, but I recall a push a few years ago by university presidents to return the drinking age to 18 to reduce the problems they have with underage drinking.

The main problem, depending on where the school is located, is that they charge you much more money to live on campus than you would have to pay to live in similar conditions off campus. And then stick their nose in your business anyways.


Except that there are no "similar conditions" off campus.  You're overlooking the things you get in campus housing that do not come with that apartment on J-Street.  For example: unlimited utilities, including water, electricity, and usually cable and internet (which itself is usually faster on campus than anything you'll pay for off-campus).  Also: multiple layers of security; a dedicated police station on campus, regular patrols of your "neighborhood" (often both car and foot), usually front-desk security with access restricted to photo-ID carrying residents and their guests, and professional administrators (RDs) and paraprofessional staff members (RAs) doing safety checks and rule enforcement.  Also: usually, far better fire safety building design, equipment, and enforced policies.  Also: professional (RD) and paraprofessional assistance/intervention with domestic disputes and complaints about neighbors.  Also: paraprofessional programming about health and wellness, studying, local and regional entertainment, and community building.  Also: close access to prepared and nutritious meals (meal plans are usually required with on-campus housing) that you do not have to cook.  Also....

Do I really have to go on?  Or do you want to revise your apples-to-oranges comparison of the costs of living on and off campus?
2014-02-26 02:53:10 AM
1 votes:
I'll take a stab at interpreting some of these from the university's perspective.  Don't hold the university to my opinion.  Caution: heavy editing to reduce wall-o-text.  Caution#2: Please take my snark as good-natured teasing.  That's all it is intended to be.

 - A fraternity party is "any event an observer would associate with the fraternity or sorority." (who's the observer? Someone in Admin, I'm sure).

Some college students live to find loopholes-- as you yourself noted.  Don't get butthurt when they preemptively close them!
Of course Admin will be the "observer."  You expected the Pope, maybe?

- No parties during Finals week.   [Subby note: Makes sense, but most people are done with finals on Wendesday... so they can't party until Saturday?]

This rule isn't about your finals/party schedule.  It's about the God-forsaken sod that does have Friday exams and needs to not have Joe Kegger drunk and screaming through the halls, paths, or streets at 2am.

- Parties only permitted on days when the next day is not a "school day"; parties may not exceed 5 hours in length and must end by 1 AM. [Subby note: 5 hours? That's nothing. 1AM? Crap, last call at the bars is 1:30 or 1:45]

Again, it's not about your party schedule.  Your schedule lets you party to 3am?  Great; but the ROTC men and women, or the junior working to put herself through school, or the senior with a crucial internship all have to be up at 5am.  The school has to balance competing needs.
Also, the school is probably looking at what time most of the "incidents" start, and IME those seriously crank up after 1:30am.

- "Day parties" must end by 8PM.

Closing a loophole.  C'mon, I didn't need to explain that one to you.

- Alcohol may not be served an hour prior to the end of the event. [Subby note: Everyone will drive drunk down town, so they can drink for another 90 minutes]

Good point.  I mean it.
This one is about liability control.  Remember that the next time your tuition goes up by 3% instead of 8%.
Oh, and expect lots of town cops outside the university gates and DUI arrests until students learn to walk and not drive.

- Individuals (fraternity members or not) of legal drinking age may bring beer totaling no more than 72 oz or one bottle (750ml) of wine.

LOL I can hear y'all cursing from the East Coast.
72oz is a standard six-pack.  "BInge drinking" is defined as (if I remember right) five 12oz drinks during the course of an evening/session.  This may seem ridiculous.  Or, maybe, it's time to reassess some of what you "know" about drinking.  *Shrug* college students and admins will always disagree on this one.  Admins have to stand on the side of research and liability prevention.

- At the party, no hard alcohol, squeeze bottles, water bottles... [Subby note: No water bottles? Sounds like a recipe for hangovers]

Really?  Really?  You know darned well what this one is about.  I'm a little disappointed in you for saying that; I thought you wanted to be taken seriously.
For the uninitiated: it's a loophole.  Students will put hard alcohol in water bottles and go to the party.  They're hard to regulate without an outright ban.

- All parties must be closed events with a guest list [subby note: what?]  no later than 24 hours before... no advertising... Guests marked off when they arrive... wristband system... recommended verification by hired security

I lumped these.  Not as much about killing the party scene as you think.  Definitely about liability control, and if you saw the absolute raft of lawsuits against U's all over the country from people whose kids were hurt/killed at unregulated campus parties, you'd sympathize more.
Also: about protecting the student hosts from what they don't know.  New Jersey, for example, has "social host" laws with such goodies as: if you unknowingly serve someone underage, you go to jail (goodbye police/law career); if someone hurts themselves after leaving your party, you can be sued on that basis and expect to lose; if someone comes to your party drunk and you let them in but refuse to serve them, and then they leave and hurt themselves, you can be sued and expect to lose.  Most students just think they're throwing a party.  No idea of the liabilities they expose themselves to.

- All parties under 100 people must be registered at least 5 business days... >100 people/10 days

Not about you.  Campus PD needs time to let their officers know what shifts they're working.  Campus PD may need to request security help from town cops if it's going to be a huge party.  These men and women have families, dude.  Have a heart.

 - follow up guest list must be submitted by Monday at 12 noon with the full names of all attendees and birthdates of all guests receiving wristbands. [Subby note: the school has no right to know...]

You got me, man.  I dunno why they required this.  So go ask.
Make an appointment with someone on the director/dean level, within the Dept of Student Affairs most likely, and ask.  Politely.  Interestedly.  Non-attackingly.  Student Affairs admins in particular tend to believe that the role of educating students goes beyond the classroom, and if you aren't being a d*ck or trying to "trap" them, they'll explain it to you.  Let them know in advance what you're going to ask so they don't feel like being ambushed.  And don't be a super-prick and run to the student paper afterwards, unless you told the admin in advance you might do that.  That's what discourages admins from talking honestly with students.
Oh: and yes, they do have a legal right to know.  Sorry.  "Unreasonable search and seizure" rules apply to law enforcement personnel, not university administrators.  Whether and why they have a genuine need to know, well, ask about that too!
2014-02-26 12:46:01 AM
1 votes:
TuteTibiImperes:

At the end of the day it's CYA for the school - they don't want someone to die from alcohol poisoning, get sexually assaulted, or drive drunk and hit somebody in any way related to the school officially.  If it happens at a party involving students at the school, but held off campus and not under the banner of any organization recognized by the school, it's easier for the school to distance itself.

Actually, if an university establishes rules and then fails to enforce them it will open them up to greater liability.  And, if the fraternity or sorority house is located off campus, on private property, than they university has no authority to enforce rules there.  In fact, they cannot even enter such off campus houses without a warrant.  Attorney:  "So you passed regulations giving parents a false sense of security for their children, but knew all along that you couldn't enforce them? And, their son passed out in the snow and froze to death while attempting to walk home? In freezing temperatures? without a coat, after drinking shots?"  Jury: "$$$$$!"

As a former member of a fraternity, I have always held the position that colleges and universities should refuse to recognize fraternities and sororities as student organizations.  They do it by passing a rule that prohibits any student organization from discriminating against any member based on sex.  Fraternities and sororities are single-sex organizations, so they would be excluded.  Of course, this wouldn't prohibit the existence of fraternities or sororities.  However, the university wouldn't have to worry about any liability due to their actions, and the organizations wouldn't have to worry about the university passing all sorts of rules targeting them, that don't apply to any other student organization.  Any fraternity or sorority wishing to use university property, such as a meeting room, would have to lease it just like any other unrecognized organization. And, they university could set any regulations on rented rooms, including excluding all alcoholic beverages.  If they did this they would be liability free, and fraternities could set their own rules, just like all the students that host house parties that are not affiliated with a fraternity.
2014-02-26 12:24:20 AM
1 votes:

worlddan: TuteTibiImperes: I think the law may not allow the school to demand guest lists for events held off campus and not run by affiliated student organizations.

Sure but that is not what is at stake in this case. What is pissing the OP off is precisely the fact the the school is demanding this information in order to become an affiliated organization.

BTW, here is the actual policy.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/206830577/Cal-Poly-Party-Registration-Poli cy

It clearly only applies to university affiliated organizations.


Where did I say otherwise? I even attached a link to the policy on scribd (it's embedded in the mustang news link I posted above). Find a better way to get your "Ah hah!" moment than reposting what I already have.
2014-02-26 12:15:55 AM
1 votes:
Never ceases to amaze me how people would pay so much money to be tyrannized.
2014-02-26 12:08:45 AM
1 votes:

TuteTibiImperes: Ikam: Also, as a public institution, this will prove problematic.  Private schools can be as weird and despotic as they want depending on whether or not accept federal funding for financial aid, etc. (for frightening examples, see those weird right-wing Christian 'colleges'), but public schools?  Not so much.

If you read the rules, they specifically target parties thrown fraternities/sororities affiliated with the school.  In exchange for being a registered student organization, they agree to abide by the school's policies.

The rules apply to Kappa Alpha having a party at their frat house, not Tim and Eric throwing a shindig at their off-campus apartment.

There's nothing in the rules that remotely violates federal law.


You would be correct if those rules only applied to students in fraternities. However, take someone like me. I have friends in frats. However, I'm not in a frat. I get invited to a frat party. I attend. The school now knows. That is an extreme overreach.
2014-02-26 12:02:34 AM
1 votes:
Color me shocked that it is a Calif college that was trying to enforce these rules.

/liberals are all about choice, right?
2014-02-25 11:26:30 PM
1 votes:

Flab: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: but I'm pretty sure that there's been colleges for a long time who require their freshmen to live on-campus if they're not commuting from home.

And people go for it?  Unless that college was in the middle of nowhere, and only accessible by a magical train, I don't see how that would make sense.

Also, I freely admit that I don't get Greek Life to begin with, but I don't see how a college can decide who can drink how much alcohol with whom outside of their property.


Well, it only works if they can GUARANTEE incoming freshmen dorm space; not all colleges can do that. And they also then have to pay for kids who would otherwise find cheaper off-campus housing their first year.

All it really does is ensure kids run amok their second year instead of freshman year.
2014-02-25 10:22:30 PM
1 votes:

TuteTibiImperes: I see you're from Canada, did you go to school there to?


Yep.  Even commuted from home (that's another big difference between Canadian and American colleges, most people pick one of the local ones, unless you want to go in a very speficic field that's not offered locally)  until my dad got transfered out of town, so I only moved to the uni residences for my final year.

TuteTibiImperes: in Canada there are freshman who can legally drink

 
In Quebec, all freshmen can legally drink.  The drinking age is 18, and due to the way schools are set up, when you get to university, you are usually already 19.


I understand that this DOES make a difference.  If the colleges were responsible for minors, I'm sure they would have more stringent rules about on campus alcohol consumption.  But I still think their sphere of influence would end at the sidewalk in front of the main entrance.
2014-02-25 10:07:15 PM
1 votes:
Flab:

In my experience, even if the party was held on campus by an officially recognized organisation (e.g.: the undergrad engineering students union sold about 300 cases of beer per week during happy hours to finance various extra-curicular activites, and the on-campus fully licensed bar was owned and operated by the uni's federation of student unions), the administration would simply say "They are grown adults and we don't ha ...

I see you're from Canada, did you go to school there to?  I'm sure the rules and attitudes regarding alcohol differ pretty greatly even amongst US schools, but I had a friend who went to Queen's University in Kingston, ON, and the times I visited the attitude towards alcohol was far more relaxed than any school I've visited in the US.

I'm sure part of it is the difference in drinking age - in Canada there are freshman who can legally drink, and pretty much all sophomores and above can.  In the US it's not until the late Junior or Senior year when you can legally drink.

At my school they would never have allowed student groups to sell alcohol.  In fact, I was in a fraternity that was categorized as a professional organization instead of a social/greek and because of that classification we were not allowed to own a house a or host official events involving alcohol at all.  Of course that didn't stop us from throwing unofficial parties where alcohol was present in the homes or apartments rented by members.

The university even pushed for stronger alcohol regulations in the town.  For example - drink specials and discounted drinks during happy hours were forbidden anywhere in the city.  Some bars came up with clever ways around that.  Since drink specials weren't allowed, one bar set their regular price for Natty Light at 50 cents per, but only sold it one night per week.
2014-02-25 09:45:36 PM
1 votes:

Pokey.Clyde: Flab: And people go for it? Unless that college was in the middle of nowhere, and only accessible by a magical train, I don't see how that would make sense.

Kind of have to, or they won't admit you or will kick you out. Also, there are colleges/universities that forbid freshmen from having a car.

Of course, there are ways around this if you're willing to fight or otherwise raise a stink. My school was one that mandated all freshmen live on campus, and I was told there were no exceptions. I told them I had a full time job, had already been living on my own for 6+ months, and would not live on campus nor buy a meal plan. And you know what? I kept living on my own and buying my food wherever the hell I wanted. I was there on scholarship, so that might have helped me out. I don't really know. But it is possible. It just depends on how much of a fight you are willing to put up.


The school I went to required Freshmen to live on campus their first year, unless they were over age 20 or working full time during the school year.  They really didn't check all that closely you just needed a letter from a local company stating you were a full time employee.  Usually these exceptions are fairly easy to get.
2014-02-25 09:40:00 PM
1 votes:

TuteTibiImperes: It's a fairly common policy. Usually it works by the school requiring you to either prove that you're living at and commuting from home, or pay for a dorm room. Now, you could just pay for the dorm room and then live somewhere else, and I knew students who did that, but most people aren't going to waste money like that.


Maybe it's because my university had 35,000 students.  but I can't begin to fathom why any college would even consider being in charge of a 15,000-20,000 dorm rooms.  Fark, the Atlantis resort in the Bahamas is not that big!

TuteTibiImperes: If they're registered student organizations the school can have sway over what goes on even if it isn't technically on campus

.  Rules regulating official fraternity/sorority parties aren't unprecedented.  Of course, it's hard for them to police unofficial gatherings that aren't technically being hosted by the group. .

Hmm...  So faternity XYZ can't hold tequila shots parties, but if a few members of said fraternity and their girlfirends just happen to be watching the game on tv and someone takes out the Cuervo and a few limes, it's all good?  I smell a loophole...

TuteTibiImperes: At the end of the day it's CYA for the school - they don't want someone to die from alcohol poisoning, get sexually assaulted, or drive drunk and hit somebody in any way related to the school officially. If it happens at a party involving students at the school, but held off campus and not under the banner of any organization recognized by the school, it's easier for the school to distance itself.


In my experience, even if the party was held on campus by an officially recognized organisation (e.g.: the undergrad engineering students union sold about 300 cases of beer per week during happy hours to finance various extra-curicular activites, and the on-campus fully licensed bar was owned and operated by the uni's federation of student unions), the administration would simply say "They are grown adults and we don't have anything to say other than make sure they obey the law".
2014-02-25 08:42:51 PM
1 votes:
You gotta FIGHT for your RIGHT to PAAAAAAAARTAAAAAAAAAY

/It's in the constitution, man
//First and fourth amendments
2014-02-25 07:46:37 PM
1 votes:

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I don't know about the whole list, but I'm pretty sure that there's been colleges for a long time who require their freshmen to live on-campus if they're not commuting from home.

I also seem to remember that some dorms/apartments on campus were not available to freshmen.


Ayup. That was the rule at OSU. Though I seem to have slipped through the cracks when I left the frat I was rushing after my first semester and got my own apartment with a friend. It made us quite popular with the freshmen girls :)
2014-02-25 07:37:58 PM
1 votes:
Double. Secret, probation.
 
Displayed 24 of 24 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report