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(Mustang News)   University demands guest list of off campus parties, while banning hard alcohol and drinking games there, also plans to force students to live on campus for first two years. Back tracks after hearing about things called 1st and 4th Amendments   (mustangnews.net) divider line 169
    More: Asinine, Cal Poly, Associated Students Inc., students' union, Dang Guo, student leader, Cesar Chavez  
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9052 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2014 at 11:22 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-26 08:59:11 AM  

Flab: TuteTibiImperes: I see you're from Canada, did you go to school there to?

Yep.  Even commuted from home (that's another big difference between Canadian and American colleges, most people pick one of the local ones, unless you want to go in a very speficic field that's not offered locally)  until my dad got transfered out of town, so I only moved to the uni residences for my final year.

TuteTibiImperes: in Canada there are freshman who can legally drink
 
In Quebec, all freshmen can legally drink.  The drinking age is 18, and due to the way schools are set up, when you get to university, you are usually already 19.


I understand that this DOES make a difference.  If the colleges were responsible for minors, I'm sure they would have more stringent rules about on campus alcohol consumption.  But I still think their sphere of influence would end at the sidewalk in front of the main entrance.


It sounds like you have never dealt with american parents in an official capacity. Parents are the reason these rules exsist. Well, specifically thier lawyers.

Also, a few parents are politically connected. It's lovely.
 
2014-02-26 09:54:48 AM  

SkyFlyer: sprgrss: and 4th amendment have nothing to do with this, dudebro.

Actually it does when the school is requiring that a list of all students attending fraternity parties be handed over to administration the next day.


As for on campus living requirements are standard. Sure. For freshman. Maybe. But 2nd years? And Transfers? hahahaha. Yeah find me an example, please.


Seriously?

First thing on Google:  http://blogs.gwhatchet.com/newsroom/2013/07/15/university-to-require- j uniors-to-live-on-campus/
 
2014-02-26 09:59:55 AM  

SkyFlyer: udhq: SkyFlyer: udhq: SkyFlyer: Actually, as a publicly funded institution, they actually don't have right right to make rules abridging the bill of rights. Your third sentence is correct... a church isn't publicly funded (i.e. it is not the government). The school, however, is publicly funded (i.e. it is the government) Good try though.

Really?  It sounds like you're familiar with this specifically, I'm wondering if you can provide an specific details/citations?  I'm not an attorney, but it surprises me that "If you choose to join this organization, you agree to abide by these rules" would be unconstitutional.

I mean, one can be fired from government jobs for conduct otherwise covered by BoR.

I never joined the organization.

Oh, my apologies, I must have been mistaken.  I thought your profile said you were a student there.

Carry on.

As stated above, students do not lose their Constitutional rights when attending school. High school isn't a right and technically students aren't forced to attend either, however, their freedom of association and speech is still protected.


Now you're really losing me.  High school students ARE forced to attend in most states, AND they have limits put on their freedom of association AND speech.

And I'm fine with that.  Little Timmy and his buddy Johnny don't get to run around yelling like assholes during class while everyone else is trying to learn.  Ie, reasonable limits on freedom of association and speech.

You may well have a point about the college program you submitted, but you're making it poorly.
 
2014-02-26 10:01:40 AM  

FLMountainMan: brimed03: proteus_b: The Irresponsible Captain: I have no problem with the on-campus living. It's pretty common. Alcohol can be a problem, but I recall a push a few years ago by university presidents to return the drinking age to 18 to reduce the problems they have with underage drinking.

The main problem, depending on where the school is located, is that they charge you much more money to live on campus than you would have to pay to live in similar conditions off campus. And then stick their nose in your business anyways.

Except that there are no "similar conditions" off campus.  You're overlooking the things you get in campus housing that do not come with that apartment on J-Street.  For example: unlimited utilities, including water, electricity, and usually cable and internet (which itself is usually faster on campus than anything you'll pay for off-campus).  Also: multiple layers of security; a dedicated police station on campus, regular patrols of your "neighborhood" (often both car and foot), usually front-desk security with access restricted to photo-ID carrying residents and their guests, and professional administrators (RDs) and paraprofessional staff members (RAs) doing safety checks and rule enforcement.  Also: usually, far better fire safety building design, equipment, and enforced policies.  Also: professional (RD) and paraprofessional assistance/intervention with domestic disputes and complaints about neighbors.  Also: paraprofessional programming about health and wellness, studying, local and regional entertainment, and community building.  Also: close access to prepared and nutritious meals (meal plans are usually required with on-campus housing) that you do not have to cook.  Also....

CSB - I went to law school during the real estate boom.  Oncampus housing was incredible.  The school was on the site of a former luxury hotel, so the "dorms" were basically a large hotel room that you had to yourself.  Free maid service, wifi, utilities, etc.. No r ...


That's way over the top! Campus life should be a bargain. I understand that may places it's not, and frankly that's a separate argument on the cost of education.

Near our school they had a couple of private "efficiency" dorms. They were small, single-person dorm style rooms in the old bare-bones style. They were well kept, but a particularly thrifty student could save a few dollars. Otherwise, unless you were in a place with several roommates, dorms were cheaper.
 
2014-02-26 10:09:54 AM  
In case it hasn't been posted yet, Flanagan's got a very interesting piece in The Atlantic about fraternities, liability, universities, drinking, and safety:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/03/the-dark-power-o f- fraternities/357580/
 
2014-02-26 10:20:09 AM  

brimed03: Pokey.Clyde: brimed03: /no, you don't need a car on campus because you work at the ice creamery in your town on weekends. There are lots of jobs available around campus and the college town. Changing where you live in life often entails changing other things too.
//I don't care that Daddy bought you a BMW SUV for high school graduation. Not a reason for a parking exception. Wait, I do care actually: is Daddy adopting?

In case you missed it, I was working full-time (40+ hours/week) with a 60 mile round-trip drive every day. And the only jobs available in that college town usually paid about half what I was making, and a good chunk of those were usually part-time.

Oh, and I was driving a 1987 Ford Ranger with 180K miles on it. Not exactly a BMW SUV. Must suck to be such an assuming asshole.


Whoa whoa whoathere Pokey_McAssumptionMaker.  I was making a general and somewhat tongue-in-cheek set of comments about how to work with college administrators to get your needs met and the silliness that administrators sometimes encounter on these occasions.  Nowhere in there does it indicate overtly or tacitly that any of this was pointed at you.  Nor was any of it pointed at you.  Had you farking ASKED me that, you would have avoided a lot of self-imposed butthurt.  F*cking sensitive much??

Yes, it MUST suck to be such an assuming asshole.


You seem touchy.
 
2014-02-26 10:31:07 AM  
It sounds like the Uni is overstepping reasonable bounds, but what is it you really want, subby? You want the secured right to drink anonymously and underage with the dumbest people at your school? I'm sure there are still plenty of ways to do that, but with fewer people are puking on your shoes.
 
2014-02-26 12:23:24 PM  
poor little miss muffin, drank too much farked an @$$hole and had buyers remorse so now it's rape. if you can't drink and control yourself, stay at home little girl.

// got nothing
 
2014-02-26 01:08:17 PM  

udhq: Subby needs to read the part of the first amendment about freedom of association.  No students are forced to attend this college, but when they do, they choose to abide by its rules.

It's no different than choosing to join a church that restricts behavior in such a way that it would be unconstitutional if the government did it.


Public schools are not private entities.  They are required to give students their constitutional rights because they are  extensions of the government.  (assuming its a public school, Didn't read)
 
2014-02-26 02:42:40 PM  

BetterMetalSnake: Flab: TuteTibiImperes: I see you're from Canada, did you go to school there to?

Yep.  Even commuted from home (that's another big difference between Canadian and American colleges, most people pick one of the local ones, unless you want to go in a very speficic field that's not offered locally)  until my dad got transfered out of town, so I only moved to the uni residences for my final year.

TuteTibiImperes: in Canada there are freshman who can legally drink
 
In Quebec, all freshmen can legally drink.  The drinking age is 18, and due to the way schools are set up, when you get to university, you are usually already 19.


I understand that this DOES make a difference.  If the colleges were responsible for minors, I'm sure they would have more stringent rules about on campus alcohol consumption.  But I still think their sphere of influence would end at the sidewalk in front of the main entrance.

It sounds like you have never dealt with american parents in an official capacity. Parents are the reason these rules exsist. Well, specifically thier lawyers.

Also, a few parents are politically connected. It's lovely.



So, how does that work, exactly...

Scenario A:
15 guys decided to have a party at Bob's off-campus appartment.  Someone brings jello shots.  Someone gets sick and ends up in the hospital.

Scenario B:
The local chapter of the SAE rents a bar on a friday night and organize a party to collect funds to build a solar-powered car to compete in the annual race.  Someone gets sick and nearly chokes on her vomit, and ends up in the hospital.

How can anyone sue the university over either of these?

I'm not talking about sneaking booze somewhere where it's not allowed, or allowing underage people to drink.  I'm just wondering why a school could be held liable for the activities of adults while NOT on school property.
 
2014-02-26 05:20:20 PM  

Flab: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: but I'm pretty sure that there's been colleges for a long time who require their freshmen to live on-campus if they're not commuting from home.

And people go for it?  Unless that college was in the middle of nowhere, and only accessible by a magical train, I don't see how that would make sense.

Also, I freely admit that I don't get Greek Life to begin with, but I don't see how a college can decide who can drink how much alcohol with whom outside of their property.


People used to put up with all kinds of rules in order to be able to attend college.  When my mom was in college, women could not wear pants on campus unless the temperature dropped below zero.  The school I attended did have the on-campus residency requirement.  The reasons given varied from "too many freshmen will flunk out if they are given total freedom" (which was probably true) to "the school was able to secure financing to build the dorms by requiring that students rent them" (bogus, since the freshman dorms were built shortly after WWII).
 
2014-02-26 05:22:48 PM  

Flab: BetterMetalSnake: Flab: TuteTibiImperes: I see you're from Canada, did you go to school there to?

Yep.  Even commuted from home (that's another big difference between Canadian and American colleges, most people pick one of the local ones, unless you want to go in a very speficic field that's not offered locally)  until my dad got transfered out of town, so I only moved to the uni residences for my final year.

TuteTibiImperes: in Canada there are freshman who can legally drink
 
In Quebec, all freshmen can legally drink.  The drinking age is 18, and due to the way schools are set up, when you get to university, you are usually already 19.


I understand that this DOES make a difference.  If the colleges were responsible for minors, I'm sure they would have more stringent rules about on campus alcohol consumption.  But I still think their sphere of influence would end at the sidewalk in front of the main entrance.

It sounds like you have never dealt with american parents in an official capacity. Parents are the reason these rules exsist. Well, specifically thier lawyers.

Also, a few parents are politically connected. It's lovely.


So, how does that work, exactly...

Scenario A:
15 guys decided to have a party at Bob's off-campus appartment.  Someone brings jello shots.  Someone gets sick and ends up in the hospital.

Scenario B:
The local chapter of the SAE rents a bar on a friday night and organize a party to collect funds to build a solar-powered car to compete in the annual race.  Someone gets sick and nearly chokes on her vomit, and ends up in the hospital.

How can anyone sue the university over either of these?

I'm not talking about sneaking booze somewhere where it's not allowed, or allowing underage people to drink.  I'm just wondering why a school could be held liable for the activities of adults while NOT on school property.


I'm not exactly sure either. But it happens. And universities quake in their boots over the possibility. Much of our policy is designed to limit liability from litigious assholes. It's the same reason kids need helmets for everything and nobody has cool toys anymore.
 
2014-02-26 05:29:04 PM  

Ikam: College should be a place to explore, make mistakes, learn from them and grow up.


When I build my university, you're hired.  Whatever other philosophical disagreements we may end up having, so long as you keep believing this you have a job.
 
2014-02-26 05:30:20 PM  

Ikam: Occasionally, parents have a problem with it, but thankfully our student life people don't really pay them much mind.


Please.  Please tell me where you work.
 
2014-02-26 05:32:25 PM  

llortcM_yllort: brimed03: Pokey.Clyde: brimed03: /no, you don't need a car on campus because you work at the ice creamery in your town on weekends. There are lots of jobs available around campus and the college town. Changing where you live in life often entails changing other things too.
//I don't care that Daddy bought you a BMW SUV for high school graduation. Not a reason for a parking exception. Wait, I do care actually: is Daddy adopting?

In case you missed it, I was working full-time (40+ hours/week) with a 60 mile round-trip drive every day. And the only jobs available in that college town usually paid about half what I was making, and a good chunk of those were usually part-time.

Oh, and I was driving a 1987 Ford Ranger with 180K miles on it. Not exactly a BMW SUV. Must suck to be such an assuming asshole.


Whoa whoa whoathere Pokey_McAssumptionMaker.  I was making a general and somewhat tongue-in-cheek set of comments about how to work with college administrators to get your needs met and the silliness that administrators sometimes encounter on these occasions.  Nowhere in there does it indicate overtly or tacitly that any of this was pointed at you.  Nor was any of it pointed at you.  Had you farking ASKED me that, you would have avoided a lot of self-imposed butthurt.  F*cking sensitive much??

Yes, it MUST suck to be such an assuming asshole.

You seem touchy.


Yeah.  I was tired.  I plan to email Pokey an apology shortly.

Mind you, s/he is still kind of an assuming ahole.  But with reason.  S/he really fought hard for graduation
 
2014-02-26 05:36:02 PM  

Flab: BetterMetalSnake: Flab: TuteTibiImperes:

So, how does that work, exactly...
Scenario A:
15 guys decided to have a party at Bob's off-campus appartment.  Someone brings jello shots.  Someone gets sick and ends up in the hospital.
Scenario B:
The local chapter of the SAE rents a bar on a friday night and organize a party to collect funds to build a solar-powered car to compete in the annual race.  Someone gets sick and nearly chokes on her vomit, and ends up in the hospital.
How can anyone sue the university over either of these?
I'm not talking about sneaking booze somewhere where it's not allowed, or allowing underage people to drink.  I'm just wondering why a school could be held liable for the activities of adults while NOT on school property.


In the words of the philosopher, you wouldn't think it be like it is, but it do.  Situation A is a lovely example of a suit that has probably been brought against many an American university many a time, and the smart ones quietly and cheaply settle it out of court.  And then implement draconian-seeming policy changes so they don't have to keep raising tuition even higher than they already do.
 
2014-02-26 05:38:25 PM  

flondrix: People used to put up with all kinds of rules in order to be able to attend college.  When my mom was in college, women could not wear pants on campus unless the temperature dropped below zero.


So your mom and her friends went to college naked below the waist?  And perky-nippled at 1degree?  Aww yissss......

*giggity*
/sorry for the mental image
//got any pictures of her co-ed days?
 
2014-02-26 05:43:40 PM  
I'm so glad I, as someone who has actually studied and practiced the law, has been told by a college sophomore that I do not know the law.

Guess what, dudebro, Tinker v. Des Moines does not apply to higher eduction.  Secondly, over the years, Tinker has been walked back by the US Supreme Court.

Next, the school requiring school sponsored organizations (and prospective school sponsored organization) to turn over guest list does not violate the 1st or 4th Amendments to the United States Constitution.  As a school sponsored, or proactive school sponsored organization, those organizations have to abide by the rules and regs. established by the University lest they lose sponsorship.  Even if the school didn't get coverage here (which it does in droves), it would get coverage because an inspection of the guest lists are administrative searches and therefore are not searches under the 4th Amendment.

But you know, keep citing Tinker and telling everyone else they are wrong.
 
2014-02-26 07:32:20 PM  

SkyFlyer: Aestatis: SkyFlyer:
- Parties only permitted on days when the next day is not a "school day"; parties  may not exceed 5 hours in length and must end by 1 AM. [Subby note: 5 hours? That's nothing. 1AM? Crap, last call at the bars is 1:30 or 1:45]

- Alcohol  may not be served an hour prior to the end of the event. [Subby note: I'm sure the bars and SLOPD will love this. Everyone will leave the frat party, drive drunk down town, so they can drink for another 90 minutes]

These two seem like the biggest issue.  That's going to result in drunk driving.  This is why we needed a federal drinking law, to prevent kids from hopping state lines in order to drink and then crashing on the way home.  We don't need the equivalent at campus parties!

Everything else is about protecting people at the party, mostly by preventing parties from happening or by preventing people from getting drunk.  None of this will succeed; I went to a school with a dry campus, and we got wasted in one of two ways:

1.  We broke the rules and got drunk on campus, in walking distance of water and our beds, and with fairly reliable sources of help as needed.
2.  We went off-campus and got drunk, then needed someone to drive us home (hopefully sober; I always brought a mormon).   Chances are this increases the amount of drunk driving, because sometimes students will make a bad call.  Then they get to survive that bad call, because they usually do, and go on to assume that they can drink and drive in the future and be OK.  Lovely.

Honestly, it seems like the thing the university should focus on is providing support and education.  If you've got lots of people receiving a small discount on housing in exchange for taking a class on how to deal with alcohol issues, you've got a hoard who can assist when things go south.  If you spend some money to get an on-call nurse, you've got someone to deal with emergencies quickly.  This doesn't seem out of the budget for a large school, especially.  You can't keep co ...


The road to Hell is paved with good intentions
 
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