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(Marketwatch)   A new, clear image of North Korea from orbit, at night, reminds us that one way to save energy is not to have any in the first place   (blogs.marketwatch.com ) divider line 116
    More: Sad, North Korea  
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8572 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Feb 2014 at 2:30 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-26 12:15:05 PM  

Feepit: It is simpler than that. Prior to and during WWII, Korea was a Japanese colony. Afterward, Russia and the USA divided Japan's spoils. MacArthur ruled South Korea for all intents and purposes.


A...colony?  Gotta love the lightspeed spin.  It was a Japanese colony (which sounds nice and legitimate) but when the U.S. kicked Japan out it was a "puppet regime" (evil sounding).

The facts - Japan occupied Korea and literally used the Koreans as slave labor and exported the women to Japan as sex slaves.  The Koreans hated the Japanese occupation with a white hot passion of a thousand suns.  Yes, when the U.S. defeated Japan, we set up a provisional government for them to rule themselves, which was the intent.  We had left, and they had their own democratic government when NK invaded.

Feepit: Any government propped up by the natives was a weak puppet of the USA. An invasion by the north was perceived as no different than an invasion of the Philippines, Guam, or Texas.


Lol, even assuming for a moment this analogy is accurate, which is ridiculous - if texas invaded northward slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians,you wouldn't want the U.S. government to do anything about it?
 
2014-02-26 01:24:26 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: A...colony?  Gotta love the lightspeed spin.  It was a Japanese colony (which sounds nice and legitimate) but when the U.S. kicked Japan out it was a "puppet regime" (evil sounding).


That wasn't intentional and I definitely do not look upon the concept of a colony favorably, considering how much the English, French, Spanish, and Dutch screwed up the world in their endless pursuit of establishing colonies.

ThrobblefootSpectre: We had left, and they had their own democratic government when NK invaded.


Yeah yeah, they had elections because America! Democracy! Too bad North Korea didn't have that. They got whatever the USSR and China wanted them to get. Doesn't mean the South's government was any less a puppet government, up until the end of the cold war with the collapse of the Soviet Union.

ThrobblefootSpectre: Lol, even assuming for a moment this analogy is accurate, which is ridiculous - if texas invaded northward slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians,you wouldn't want the U.S. government to do anything about it?


What? I mean if Texas was invaded by a foreign power. I have no idea where you got the idea of Texas invading the other states from.
 
2014-02-26 01:38:25 PM  

Feepit: Yeah yeah, they had elections because America! Democracy! Too bad North Korea didn't have that. They got whatever the USSR and China wanted them to get. Doesn't mean the South's government was any less a puppet government, up until the end of the cold war with the collapse of the Soviet Union.


I.....am at a loss.  Are you a saying ethnic Koreans were better off under Japan?  Are you saying we shouldn't have let them set up a their own government?  Are you saying the U.N. coalition shouldn't have done anything to stop NK from slaughtering  civilians?  Or....what, exactly?

It's not even clear to me what you are trying to get at.    But I'm replying only to give you the benefit of the doubt that there might be an actual nugget of coherence hiding somewhere behind your "America! Democracy! " rhetoric.
 
2014-02-26 01:51:13 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: Are you a saying ethnic Koreans were better off under Japan?


No.

ThrobblefootSpectre: Are you saying we shouldn't have let them set up a their own government?


I am saying the government we initially let them set up as a sham. For all intents and purposes, South Korea was run by the United States.

ThrobblefootSpectre: Are you saying the U.N. coalition shouldn't have done anything to stop NK from slaughtering  civilians?


I am saying that whether or not there was a UN resolution to stop the North Korean invasion, the US had a vested interest in South Korea and would have repelled the invasion regardless.

I agree that South Korea is better off today, but I don't delude myself into thinking the US went to war for them for any other reason than COMMUNISTS and "hey, that's ours!"
 
2014-02-26 02:15:14 PM  

Feepit: I am saying the government we initially let them set up as a sham. For all intents and purposes, South Korea was run by the United States.



Okay, "sham" is an interesting word for it.  After long enough of being enslaved and raped (100% literally) by various other ethnicities, it is understandable that they can't jump right into modern democracy overnight, it took 3 or four years.  So that didn't really answer the question.  Do you feel that we should not have let them form their own government?   I guess the question is, what would you have done differently?  Would you have set up a better government somehow (define better)?  And how?  Or would you have simply left and said "good luck guys!"  What?

If you are going to make accusations like it was a "sham" then apparently you have something in mind, right now that you could type, that should have been done differently.  Could you share that with us?

I get that the U.S. did something evil horrible and wrong in your opinion.  Don't misunderstand me, that part of your general bent is coming through loud and clear.  I'm just trying to pinpoint what you think that evil horrible wrong thing was.  Because from your posts so far I still haven't the faintest clue.
 
2014-02-26 02:43:20 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: After long enough of being enslaved and raped (100% literally) by various other ethnicities, it is understandable that they can't jump right into modern democracy overnight, it took 3 or four years.


And if Japan never attacked the US, Koreans would quite probably still be living in those conditions. The US wouldn't have intervened, just as it does not intervene today in places where human beings are subject to horrendous conditions. Instead, our politicians wring their hands and wonder how those things can happen. The US didn't care about the South Korean people or Koreans in general. It merely saw the situation as an opportunity, felt threatened by the possibility of communist expansion, and acted in its own interests.

Why are you pretending the US is some great liberator? We took over that country and forced our form of government on it because we could, not because we felt it was in South Korea's best interest. Even  after that so-called liberation, US soldiers still made prolific use of Korean "pleasure women." Yeah ... such hero, so freedom.
 
2014-02-26 02:58:21 PM  

Feepit: And if Japan never attacked the US, Koreans would quite probably still be living in those conditions


If you come up with what the U.S. should have been done differently, let us know.  I give up asking.
 
2014-02-26 03:13:38 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: If you come up with what the U.S. should have been done differently, let us know.  I give up asking.


I do not consider myself to be the arbiter of how the world should be run, so of course I am not going to answer your question. I am merely pointing out the US is not some benevolent force, as you seem to believe, and halting the North Korean invasion had little to nothing to do with a concern for the welfare of the Korean people.
 
2014-02-26 03:30:00 PM  

Feepit: ThrobblefootSpectre: If you come up with what the U.S. should have been done differently, let us know.  I give up asking.

I do not consider myself to be the arbiter of how the world should be run, so of course I am not going to answer your question. I am merely pointing out the US is not some benevolent force, as you seem to believe, and halting the North Korean invasion had little to nothing to do with a concern for the welfare of the Korean people.


Derp. By that standard, there are no benevolent forces in the world. Enlightened self-interest does more real good than altruism.
 
2014-02-26 03:38:23 PM  

Boojum2k: Enlightened self-interest does more real good than altruism.


Yeah, the same enlightened self-interest that nearly wiped out all the Native Americans ...

/herp
 
2014-02-26 04:26:52 PM  

Feepit: do not consider myself to be the arbiter of how the world should be run, so of course I am not going to answer your question. I am merely pointing out the US is not some benevolent force, as you seem to believe, and halting the North Korean invasion had little to nothing to do with a concern for the welfare of the Korean people.


Heh.  I wasn't asking you to be world arbiter.  I was asking for your opinion, since you obviously have one.   If you didn't have one, you wouldn't keep implying that the U.S. did something wrong, with a vague handwave, but then refuse to specify what it was.  You just rely on "yea america!" soundbites, and a vague handwave.

I strongly suspect you don't know why you believe that.  You heard it somewhere from some liberal arts professor with a ponytail and lennon glasses, and think that saying it makes you sound edgy and enlightened.  But you really don't have any understanding of the historical contexts you are referring to, or what could have been done differently in that time and place.

As an obama voting progressive libby peacenik, I can personally say I think the U.S. and U.N. actions in North korea were the correct ones in a really crappy situation involving multiple nations at that time and place in history.  Do I think the U.S. is perfect? No. (so stop implying I do with stupid soundbite "freedom! democracy! liberator!" rhetoric which makes you sound idiotic.  I NEVER said any such thing.). Do I think the U.S. acted in a more moral and altruistic fashion than most other nations in the years preceding, during, and after WW2, yes.  Did we act perfectly?  No.  But compared to whom?  Europe?  China? Russia?  Japan?  Yes, we were better than those war-mongering dipshiats.  Not perfect, mind you, but better.  I think vague complaints about the U.S. completely out of context of the actions of any other nations at that same time in history is lame.
 
2014-02-26 04:39:15 PM  

Feepit: Why are you pretending the US is some great liberator? We took over that country and forced our form of government on it because we could, not because we felt it was in South Korea's best interest. Even after that so-called liberation, US soldiers still made prolific use of Korean "pleasure women." Yeah ... such hero, so freedom.


It's a Kobayashi Maru scenario.  Do nothing and you are heartless for letting people get slaughtered (see Darfur).  Get involved and you are putting your own interests ahead of all else.  People who cry for the plight of a country like Darfur are often the first damning the US for intervening elsewhere.  It is a no win scenario.
 
2014-02-26 06:16:34 PM  

mjbok: Get involved and you are putting your own interests ahead of all else.


I can't really think of a war that started purely as a relief effort. Can you?

That is true if you actually are putting your own interests ahead of everything else, like taking control of a nation to stop the spread of an ideology you dislike, or as an excuse to funnel money to your favorite war contractors, or to fix prices on limited resources, or to test your new toys, and so on. I suppose you could always argument that a nation is doing it for its own vested interests, but that is usually the case anyway, otherwise they wouldn't be able to rationalize going to war in the first place. In the specific case of South Korea, I just don't see how the welfare of the Korean people was ever a consideration.

ThrobblefootSpectre: Do I think the U.S. is perfect? No.


If you didn't treat patriotism as a religion, you would've taken my comments in the context they were given instead of trying to read some anti-nationalist irrational liberal hate into them. You weasel word your way into making it seem like the US was so wonderful for freeing South Korea from the slavery and abuse of the Japanese, when really that was just a side effect of what took place.
 
2014-02-26 06:30:15 PM  

Feepit: You weasel word your way into making it seem like the US was so wonderful for freeing South Korea from the slavery and abuse of the Japanese, when really that was just a side effect of what took place.


Unadulterated 100% bullshiat.

All I did was point out that we didn't "invade" Korea, then you started making "Freedom! Democracy!" comments (yes, you did) without any factual basis or context whatsoever.  So I politely asked what you felt the U.S. did wrong in that situation, what should have been done differently, and you refused to answer.   Btw - Anyone can go back up and read the thread, so stop blatantly lying about it.
 
2014-02-26 06:36:34 PM  

Feepit: If you didn't treat patriotism as a religion


I treat reason and truth with respect, patriotism didn't enter into a single word I posted.  You are the one who posted derpy "Go America!" posts.  Sorry.
 
2014-02-26 07:04:56 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: I treat reason and truth with respect, patriotism didn't enter into a single word I posted. You are the one who posted derpy "Go America!" posts. Sorry.


Oh, I started it, eh? Please. I merely clarified the reason the US repulsed the North Korea invasion, which it would have done without the UN's approval, and you latched onto phrases like "colony" and "puppet regime" as though one is historically worse than the other, and started a giant and unnecessary tantrum.
 
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