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(UCLA)   If you took Tylenol during pregnancy, you should pro... HEY CHECK OUT THIS BUNNY   (newsroom.ucla.edu) divider line 91
    More: PSA, acetaminophen, checkouts, pregnancy  
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14383 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Feb 2014 at 7:37 PM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-24 07:37:26 PM
www.phdcomics.com

FTFA: "We need further research to verify these findings, but if these results reflect causal associations, then acetaminophen should no longer be considered a 'safe' drug for use in pregnancy," Olsen said.

So, basically, they have identified an interesting finding, and need more investigation to determine if it is simply coincidental, or if it is actually a causative agent.

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-02-24 07:39:29 PM
When used appropriately, it is considered mostly harmless.

Except for wrecking your liver.

/but I have *three* arms
 
2014-02-24 07:42:11 PM
When will people learn that ADHD isn't really about some diagnosis, it's about the great music and good times. I remember the first time I heard Thunderstruck and it kicked ass all night long.
 
2014-02-24 07:43:07 PM
Aaaand done in one.
 
2014-02-24 07:43:18 PM
Dammit, where's the bunny?!
 
2014-02-24 07:44:06 PM
Well if it bears out . . . lawyers, start your engines
 
2014-02-24 07:48:06 PM
What the fark would UCLA know about science or medicine? Isn't it an acting school with a football team?
 
2014-02-24 07:49:51 PM

fusillade762: Except for wrecking your liver.


Except in the absence of previous liver damage, chronic use through combination opiates/apap drugs, and heavy drinking/alcohol use, tylenol is exceedingly safe, and is one of the safest drugs for fever control in children (Ibuprofin and Naproxen can cause renal failure in dehydration, and Aspirin can cause worsening acidosis and reye's syndrome)
 
2014-02-24 07:53:22 PM
Lemme guess...another excuse parents use for why their kids have all the human attributes of a howler monkey?

Click

Yup.
 
2014-02-24 07:55:43 PM
SQUIRREL!
 
2014-02-24 07:56:05 PM

hardinparamedic: [www.phdcomics.com image 600x667]

FTFA: "We need further research to verify these findings, but if these results reflect causal associations, then acetaminophen should no longer be considered a 'safe' drug for use in pregnancy," Olsen said.

So, basically, they have identified an interesting finding, and need more investigation to determine if it is simply coincidental, or if it is actually a causative agent.

[25.media.tumblr.com image 850x885]


Done in one
 
2014-02-24 07:56:55 PM

fusillade762: When used appropriately, it is considered mostly harmless.

Except for wrecking your liver.

/but I have *three* arms


There is no way Tylenol would be approved by the FDA these days. It's a great pain reliever but the side effects are simply horrible.

/I stick to aspirin and refuse anything with acetaminophen in it
 
2014-02-24 07:59:07 PM
Dammit, Mom!
 
2014-02-24 08:01:22 PM

KidneyStone: There is no way Tylenol would be approved by the FDA these days. It's a great pain reliever but the side effects are simply horrible.

/I stick to aspirin and refuse anything with acetaminophen in it


Actually, it'd never be approved for use in combination with chronic opiate therapy, and there is now FDA recommendations to remove them from ALL oral opiates.

Tylenol is still very, very safe to use for fever control and pain in acute settings.

And you cannot give Asprin to kids under 8 unless treating a vasculitis, such as Kawasaki syndrome, or treating congenital heart issues. The risk of Reye's Syndrome is too great in a febrile child/infant.
 
2014-02-24 08:01:37 PM
potato.
 
Zel
2014-02-24 08:01:44 PM
The proper study is not published until tomorrow, but a commentary in the same journal (JAMA Pediatrics) is ready to go. There, an expert reviewer explains the findings in depth (more than the UCLA press office anyway).

The summary is that the risk is mild and confounded by uncontrolled factors. Many mothers studied could not report precise time and quantity of tylenol usage, and many others did not complete the study (it's bothersome to have a researcher ask to verify your kids' not-having of ADHD). Since ADHD is inheritable, and mild psychological issues in the mother could make her more or less likely to use tylenol, we can't draw causal conclusions until a different study is performed. They did see a correlation that women who took the drug very often and continually had a <50% higher risk of an ADHD child.

Bear in mind a proportional increase in risk should be multiplied by the population frequency of the disease, so we're measuring something like a change from 5% to 7% ADHD kids.
 
2014-02-24 08:01:57 PM

AbiNormal: What the fark would UCLA know about science or medicine? Isn't it an acting school with a football team?


UCLA is home to one of the best medical schools in the country, and its science is top-notch.
 
2014-02-24 08:02:47 PM
www.wearysloth.com
 
2014-02-24 08:02:53 PM

KidneyStone: fusillade762: When used appropriately, it is considered mostly harmless.

Except for wrecking your liver.

/but I have *three* arms

There is no way Tylenol would be approved by the FDA these days. It's a great pain reliever but the side effects are simply horrible.

/I stick to aspirin and refuse anything with acetaminophen in it


What would you use to reduce fever in a 3 month old?
 
2014-02-24 08:03:28 PM

AbiNormal: What the fark would UCLA know about science or medicine? Isn't it an acting school with a football team?


Considering the abject morons that I deal with from UCLA and their research program, they'd be better off concentrating on football. Sweet baby Jesus. Every single time I get something from them, it's a damn problem.
 
2014-02-24 08:04:47 PM

hardinparamedic: fusillade762: Except for wrecking your liver.

Except in the absence of previous liver damage, chronic use through combination opiates/apap drugs, and heavy drinking/alcohol use, tylenol is exceedingly safe, and is one of the safest drugs for fever control in children (Ibuprofin and Naproxen can cause renal failure in dehydration, and Aspirin can cause worsening acidosis and reye's syndrome)


So it should be first line for infants, but not first line for adults unless they have aspirin/ibuprofen sensitivity?

From what I gather, risk/reward in adults puts acetaminophen towards the bottom (minus allergies/sensitivities) and ibuprofen at the top.

is this innacurate?
 
2014-02-24 08:06:26 PM
At least the study group didn't vaccinate their kids....  did they??
 
2014-02-24 08:09:18 PM

Thingster: So it should be first line for infants, but not first line for adults unless they have aspirin/ibuprofen sensitivity?

From what I gather, risk/reward in adults puts acetaminophen towards the bottom (minus allergies/sensitivities) and ibuprofen at the top.

is this innacurate?


Tylenol is safe when used for acute pain control (<2g in 24 hours in the typical adult with no liver dysfunction) or acute fever control in the adult population. It's actually a pretty good pain medication, and they use it on the adult cancer wars with people who have adequate liver function to reduce their need for opiates with breakthrough pain by IV administration. (Price is the barrier to IV use, namely a 1gm vial of Tylenol IV costs about a grand, and there's no guidance on multi-use dosing with the same vial)

The problem is that manufacturers decided that APAP was a great way to improve the effectiveness of Hydrocodone and Codeine, AND A great way to punish addicts. Chronic use of it will fry your liver.
 
2014-02-24 08:11:15 PM
Whar the bunny? Whar?
 
2014-02-24 08:14:36 PM
Do not consume acetaminophen.  There is no reason to do so.

That's free advice.
 
2014-02-24 08:18:28 PM

hardinparamedic: The problem is that manufacturers decided that APAP was a great way to improve the effectiveness of Hydrocodone and Codeine, AND A great way to punish addicts. Chronic use of it will fry your liver.


Not to mention people that drink regularly, especially women.  I need two hands to count the number of women I know that have wrecked their liver and/or kidneys using acetaminophen (granted this was the 80's).  Some elderly, so who knows if it was the root cause, but you can't take it like aspirin.

Which is good, because I'm addicted to aspirin.
 
2014-02-24 08:19:47 PM
Well A) Im not a woman and B) I drink too much alcohol to buy tylenol instead of asprin
 
2014-02-24 08:21:52 PM

hardinparamedic: Thingster: So it should be first line for infants, but not first line for adults unless they have aspirin/ibuprofen sensitivity?

From what I gather, risk/reward in adults puts acetaminophen towards the bottom (minus allergies/sensitivities) and ibuprofen at the top.

is this innacurate?

Tylenol is safe when used for acute pain control (<2g in 24 hours in the typical adult with no liver dysfunction) or acute fever control in the adult population. It's actually a pretty good pain medication, and they use it on the adult cancer wars with people who have adequate liver function to reduce their need for opiates with breakthrough pain by IV administration. (Price is the barrier to IV use, namely a 1gm vial of Tylenol IV costs about a grand, and there's no guidance on multi-use dosing with the same vial)

The problem is that manufacturers decided that APAP was a great way to improve the effectiveness of Hydrocodone and Codeine, AND A great way to punish addicts. Chronic use of it will fry your liver.


But what defines liver dysfunction? I'm not being confrontational, genuinely curious.

is it diagnoseable fatty liver, starting of definable cirrhosis, or just enzyme tests coming back "off"?

Curiosity comes from someone I know almost dying from liver failure after taking an opiate+acetaminophen. He was a drinker, but nothing ever came back worse than off enzyme tests. Dr. Put him on one of the pain killers and within 3 days he had visible ascites.

It'd seem in adult populations, especially for how honest adults tend to be (not really), acetaminophen would be a last case recommendation - at least per OTCs.
 
2014-02-24 08:30:09 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Do not consume acetaminophen.  There is no reason to do so.

That's free advice.


My raging head cold disagrees with you. I am currently worshiping at the altar of DayQuil and NyQuil.

Re: Tylenol and ADHD, we're fairly certain my dad has a mild case and was just never diagnosed, due to being born in... 1943. Well before Tylenol was on the market. /shrug
 
2014-02-24 08:34:53 PM

ladyfortuna: Marcus Aurelius: Do not consume acetaminophen.  There is no reason to do so.

That's free advice.

My raging head cold disagrees with you. I am currently worshiping at the altar of DayQuil and NyQuil.

Re: Tylenol and ADHD, we're fairly certain my dad has a mild case and was just never diagnosed, due to being born in... 1943. Well before Tylenol was on the market. /shrug


The study in the article doesn't claim Tylenol invented ADHD.  RTFA?
 
2014-02-24 08:42:09 PM
WHERE'S THE BUNNY?
WHERE'S THE BUNNY?
 
2014-02-24 08:42:58 PM

ladyfortuna: My raging head cold disagrees with you. I am currently worshiping at the altar of DayQuil and NyQuil


I treat mine with a HEPA filter and a humidifier.  But then mine are because I have cats.
 
2014-02-24 08:44:54 PM

lordjupiter: The study in the article doesn't claim Tylenol invented ADHD. RTFA?


But they did precipitate the stupid packaging trend, which by itself is worse than ADHD.
 
2014-02-24 08:48:24 PM

Marcus Aurelius: I treat mine with a HEPA filter and a humidifier. But then mine are because I have cats.


Benadryl is my friend when I have a bad cold.
 
2014-02-24 08:50:40 PM
NSAIDs (Ibuprofen, Aleve) and aspirin are already contraindicated in pregnancy. If acetaminophen is also contraindicated, that leaves no pain relievers safe to take.
 
2014-02-24 08:52:34 PM
I was told there would be bunnies.

/Leaving disappointed
 
2014-02-24 08:53:23 PM

GoldSpider: Marcus Aurelius: I treat mine with a HEPA filter and a humidifier. But then mine are because I have cats.

Benadryl is my friend when I have a bad cold.


Benadryl is the only thing that can save me from my Fluffalufagous cat.  I adopted him in 2002, and he's finally decided I'm about the most awesome thing he's ever seen.  At 2 AM.  On my chest, making biscuits on my solar plexus.
 
2014-02-24 08:58:20 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Benadryl is the only thing that can save me from my Fluffalufagous cat. I adopted him in 2002, and he's finally decided I'm about the most awesome thing he's ever seen. At 2 AM. On my chest, making biscuits on my solar plexus.


Lucky enough to not be allergic to much of anything (though a recent trip to a thrift store while still sick almost made my head explode).  I minimize my use of medicines, but sometimes farking around with tea just doesn't get the job done.
 
2014-02-24 09:19:29 PM
Give me a break... Can they narrow it down any further?   Next, they'll show correlation between ADHD and parents who blink.
 
2014-02-24 09:22:53 PM
I just don't find that it does much for pain, at least not in my case.

Ibuprofen when I need pain and fever relief.

YMMV
 
2014-02-24 09:30:50 PM

hardinparamedic: fusillade762: Except for wrecking your liver.

Except in the absence of previous liver damage, chronic use through combination opiates/apap drugs, and heavy drinking/alcohol use, tylenol is exceedingly safe, and is one of the safest drugs for fever control in children (Ibuprofin and Naproxen can cause renal failure in dehydration, and Aspirin can cause worsening acidosis and reye's syndrome)


All this, but I'd also add that it can be really bad in conjunction with other medications (like, tylenol for a headache on top of whatever your daily medications are, as opposed to taking a Percocet). I get a hepatic function test 3-4 times a year because of one of my medications, and I've been cautioned to ... not avoid Tylenol at all costs, but to try and take anything else at all if I can. (Last time I got MRSA, it was up against my damn jawbone, and I took Percocet for that because sometimes it's what you gotta do - but I basically have to never take Tylenol any other time so that when I really need it, it's an option.)

/farking Trileptal
//cures the hell out of my face pain though, so it's worth it
 
2014-02-24 09:31:23 PM

Molavian: KidneyStone: fusillade762: When used appropriately, it is considered mostly harmless.

Except for wrecking your liver.

/but I have *three* arms

There is no way Tylenol would be approved by the FDA these days. It's a great pain reliever but the side effects are simply horrible.

/I stick to aspirin and refuse anything with acetaminophen in it

What would you use to reduce fever in a 3 month old?


You don't. The fever fights the infection.
 
2014-02-24 09:36:25 PM

GoldSpider: Marcus Aurelius: I treat mine with a HEPA filter and a humidifier. But then mine are because I have cats.

Benadryl is my friend when I have a bad cold.


Sadly my humidifier died a premature burbling death two months after I bought it, so I'm SOL. This is totally viral though and Benadryl mostly just makes me sleep; pseudoephedrine and the day/night-quils are the only things that are effective.

Well that and the occasional shot of sriracha, because I like using my sinuses for a few minutes...
 
2014-02-24 09:38:44 PM

ladyfortuna: Marcus Aurelius: Do not consume acetaminophen.  There is no reason to do so.

That's free advice.

My raging head cold disagrees with you. I am currently worshiping at the altar of DayQuil and NyQuil.

Re: Tylenol and ADHD, we're fairly certain my dad has a mild case and was just never diagnosed, due to being born in... 1943. Well before Tylenol was on the market. /shrug


Yeah, I was really kind of irked that this test didn't even control for "genetic predisposition in the test subjects", because genetic predisposition is such an important part of the picture. My kids and I all have ADHD, but I didn't get diagnosed until around the same time they did (so they were 8.5 and 7, but i was 31), and the behaviors that I have that we can point to and say "yes that is definitely ADHD behavior"? All manifest in spades in, at minimum, my dad, at least 2 of his 3 siblings, and from what little I can recall, HIS dad as well. Also, my mom shows it a little, as does her older sister. It's a pretty strong genetic pedigree for ADHD that spans, what, 4 generations?

the kids' dad had it strong in his bloodline too (his half-siblings and his dad, and he himself had been diagnosed at age 3), so I'm not sure it matters how much tylenol I may or may not have taken, my kidlets were pretty much doomed to it. Knowing whether these kids in the study were similarly likely seems like such a basic thing to check for. Hopefully any future tests will cover that.
 
2014-02-24 09:48:57 PM

cretinbob: Molavian: KidneyStone: fusillade762: When used appropriately, it is considered mostly harmless.

Except for wrecking your liver.

/but I have *three* arms

There is no way Tylenol would be approved by the FDA these days. It's a great pain reliever but the side effects are simply horrible.

/I stick to aspirin and refuse anything with acetaminophen in it

What would you use to reduce fever in a 3 month old?

You don't. The fever fights the infection.


Until the fever gets up to 103 or so. At that point, yes the fever isn't cooking the brain like we all grew up thinking, but if the temperature is that high, medical intervention is advised because the infection is probably more than the body can naturally fight (e.g., pneumonia). an infection that severe can kill an infant before its body fights it off. In really new babies, a fever much over 100 can be dangerous.

So, that doesn't mean tylenol is the answer, and I'm not saying it does. Refuse to dispense it all you want. Just please, don't assume the body can fight off any infection just by cooking it away - high fevers are still important red flags.
 
2014-02-24 09:50:50 PM

hardinparamedic: Thingster: So it should be first line for infants, but not first line for adults unless they have aspirin/ibuprofen sensitivity?

From what I gather, risk/reward in adults puts acetaminophen towards the bottom (minus allergies/sensitivities) and ibuprofen at the top.

is this innacurate?


The problem is that manufacturers decided that APAP was a great way to improve the effectiveness of Hydrocodone and Codeine, AND A great way to punish addicts. Chronic use of it will fry your liver.


Which is a shame, because some people are prescribed those for, essentially, the rest of their lives.  My FIL is going for his 5th hip tomorrow (had his 1st at 9, horrible, multiple fatality car accident, also has artificial knee, shoulder and neck, though those were from being beaten nearly to death as a prison nurse) and he's prescribed hydrocodone and oxycontin (as needed) daily.  I absolutely hate what I know it's doing to his body.
 
2014-02-24 10:09:23 PM

The Bananadragon: cretinbob: Molavian: KidneyStone: fusillade762: When used appropriately, it is considered mostly harmless.

Except for wrecking your liver.

/but I have *three* arms

There is no way Tylenol would be approved by the FDA these days. It's a great pain reliever but the side effects are simply horrible.

/I stick to aspirin and refuse anything with acetaminophen in it

What would you use to reduce fever in a 3 month old?

You don't. The fever fights the infection.

Until the fever gets up to 103 or so. At that point, yes the fever isn't cooking the brain like we all grew up thinking, but if the temperature is that high, medical intervention is advised because the infection is probably more than the body can naturally fight (e.g., pneumonia). an infection that severe can kill an infant before its body fights it off. In really new babies, a fever much over 100 can be dangerous.

So, that doesn't mean tylenol is the answer, and I'm not saying it does. Refuse to dispense it all you want. Just please, don't assume the body can fight off any infection just by cooking it away - high fevers are still important red flags.


103 in a kid is nothing. the danger range is >108. even then, cool compresses in the axilla and inguinal folds are more effective and safer.

Of course if a rash is involved with a fever, no matter what temp, immediate care should be sought.

what? febrile seizures? yeah, they are caused by a rapid change, not severity.

also, get your kids vaccinated
 
2014-02-24 10:25:31 PM
I'm so blessed to have ADD

I could could have Attention Switching Deficit Disorder

Boy would I feel stupid then
 
2014-02-24 10:30:50 PM
cretinbob: 103 in a kid is nothing. the danger range is >108. even then, cool compresses in the axilla and inguinal folds are more effective and safer.

static4.fjcdn.com

What are you talking about. A temperature of 103 (Taken Rectally or Orally, add one degree to an axillary measurement) is a mid-grade fever in a child, and would most DEFINITELY be treated with an antipyretic, such as Tylenol or Ibuprofin. They would NOT put the child in ice-cold water, or give them cold compresses under their axilla. Not only will you overcool them, you will massively increase their cardiovascular and metabolic demands by inducing shivvering as the body attempts to respond to the immune system's demand to raise the body temperature to help fight fever.

A temperature of 108 would be lethal if it is sustained - not a "high" fever. Above 107, the brain's proteins begin to denature and it starts to "cook" itsself. A fever of 108 would not only be treated by antpyrexics, but by fluid boluses and immersion in tepid water to cook the patient. 105 to 106 is considered a high fever, and a temperature in that range is actually considered a medical emergency due to it's effects on the ability of the body to continue aerobic metabolism, as well as the decrease in cardiac output as a result of the tachycardia.

If you have a child with a fever, Tylenol or Ibuprofin  are incredibly safe to give them, unless they have been told they are on a medicine which affects their liver, or unless they have liver damage from another disease or poisoning.

Tylenol every 6-8, Ibuprofin every 4-6 is the typical rotation pediatricians use.

Do not shove cold packs under the armpits of your kids.
 
2014-02-24 10:40:53 PM

cretinbob: The Bananadragon: cretinbob: Molavian: KidneyStone: fusillade762: When used appropriately, it is considered mostly harmless.

Except for wrecking your liver.

/but I have *three* arms

There is no way Tylenol would be approved by the FDA these days. It's a great pain reliever but the side effects are simply horrible.

/I stick to aspirin and refuse anything with acetaminophen in it

What would you use to reduce fever in a 3 month old?

You don't. The fever fights the infection.

Until the fever gets up to 103 or so. At that point, yes the fever isn't cooking the brain like we all grew up thinking, but if the temperature is that high, medical intervention is advised because the infection is probably more than the body can naturally fight (e.g., pneumonia). an infection that severe can kill an infant before its body fights it off. In really new babies, a fever much over 100 can be dangerous.

So, that doesn't mean tylenol is the answer, and I'm not saying it does. Refuse to dispense it all you want. Just please, don't assume the body can fight off any infection just by cooking it away - high fevers are still important red flags.

103 in a kid is nothing. the danger range is >108. even then, cool compresses in the axilla and inguinal folds are more effective and safer.

Of course if a rash is involved with a fever, no matter what temp, immediate care should be sought.

what? febrile seizures? yeah, they are caused by a rapid change, not severity.

also, get your kids vaccinated


Sorry, I wasn't clear - a fever over 100 can be bad for an infant (103 in a child) not because of the fever itself, but because of the infection that it may be a symptom of. (A kid with a "typical" illness (cold, mild flu, etc) might spike 103 in the evenings, but if he's staying at 104.6 all day, there's probably more going on than "just a cold".) You're right about the rest of it, and I was trying to agree, but I think i said it badly :-\

/my kids are all totally vaxxed up
//except flu shots, none of us get those, but that's a whole other story
///Mr. Dragon and the kids are probably gonna start next year though
/now that i'm all immunocompromised and shiat
 
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