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(Chattanooga Times Free Press)   Tennessee Senator Bob Corker (R-eally hates unions): doubles down on his lie, despite VW's calling him out on it   (timesfreepress.com) divider line 151
    More: Followup, Chattanooga's Volkswagen, UAW, SUV, senator Bob, syntactic doubling  
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4637 clicks; posted to Politics » on 22 Feb 2014 at 11:57 AM (22 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



151 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-02-22 09:00:55 AM
Anyone surprised by this?
No?
Good.
 
2014-02-22 09:04:39 AM
FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

So I guess he will acknowledge that a majority of American voters "clearly spoke" with regards to Pres. Obama and the ACA, and urge his fellow Republicans to stop their objections?
 
2014-02-22 09:10:25 AM

mutterfark: FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

So I guess he will acknowledge that a majority of American voters "clearly spoke" with regards to Pres. Obama and the ACA, and urge his fellow Republicans to stop their objections?


That doesn't count because Obama is guilty of the worst crime imaginable: Presidenting while Black.
 
2014-02-22 09:13:58 AM

Serious Black: mutterfark: FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

So I guess he will acknowledge that a majority of American voters "clearly spoke" with regards to Pres. Obama and the ACA, and urge his fellow Republicans to stop their objections?

That doesn't count because Obama is guilty of the worst crime imaginable: Presidenting while Black.


Don't forget eatin' crackers like he owns the place.
 
2014-02-22 09:50:38 AM
Corker? I hardly knew her.
 
2014-02-22 10:28:29 AM
Christ what an asshole
 
2014-02-22 10:42:00 AM
Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.

media.timesfreepress.com
 
2014-02-22 10:42:08 AM
Labor has the right to determine what color and size of boot it gets to lick! What's wrong with giving the people choices!?!?!
 
2014-02-22 11:02:59 AM
The Germans aren't used to all this union hate.  It sure looks unseemly to me.
 
2014-02-22 11:06:37 AM

Mugato: Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.


He's already showing off his bukkake technique in that picture
 
2014-02-22 11:09:39 AM
prison
 
2014-02-22 11:38:19 AM

Mugato: Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.

[invisiblepenis.jpg]

 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-22 11:51:28 AM

Marcus Aurelius: The Germans aren't used to all this union hate.  It sure looks unseemly to me.


They just need to get used to dealing with third world labor.
 
2014-02-22 12:01:20 PM
FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

No, the workers knew all to well that spiteful, vindictive republicans would do everything in their power to ruin their jobs if they voted for the Union.
 
2014-02-22 12:01:41 PM

Bareefer Obonghit: Mugato: Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.

He's already showing off his bukkake technique in that picture


Less about Bob Corker in this thread! More of his daughter!

www.misterorange.com
 
2014-02-22 12:07:40 PM
Republicans went past doubling-down on lies a few decades ago.  They're up to so many multiples-of-down that it has to be expressed in scientific notation.
 
2014-02-22 12:10:11 PM
Laser like focus.
 
2014-02-22 12:19:46 PM

vpb: Marcus Aurelius: The Germans aren't used to all this union hate.  It sure looks unseemly to me.

They just need to get used to dealing with third world labor.


To be honest, I hope VW takes advantage of this opportunity to screw their Tennessean employees.  No reason a German capitalist shouldn't squeeze out a few more Euros when the workers won't even take the opportunity to organize when it's handed to them on a silver platter.
 
2014-02-22 12:19:47 PM

Bareefer Obonghit: Mugato: Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.

He's already showing off his bukkake technique in that picture


NO! Shut up! I like my gay porn men to be young, good-looking and hairless (body, not head).

/what? Gay porn is hot.
 
2014-02-22 12:21:19 PM

Marcus Aurelius: The Germans aren't used to all this union hate.  It sure looks unseemly to me.


Kind of ironic, since you know what German leader used to really and I mean rrrrrreally hate unions.
 
2014-02-22 12:22:14 PM
Hey, I'm the libbiest lib that ever libbed and I'm not seeing an egregious lie from Corker. From this http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/feb/13/bob-corker-defends-suv - remark-after-volkswagen-str/

it sounds like he said VW would decide where to build a new SUV based on the union vote. The plant manager said, "Nope, no correlation between the two at all."

Anyone who believes that VW isn't making decisions about what, where, and how to do anything based on all available data...wages, unions, availability of water/power/parts/interweb/freeways/shipping, and etc. is smoking something that ain't tobacco. The same goes for anyone who believes that any official speaking for VW on the record hasn't carefully vetted all speech through legal.

Funny "invisible dick" picture though! Also, sorry the vote went the way it did.
 
2014-02-22 12:23:36 PM
i.imgur.com
Does he build androids?
 
2014-02-22 12:23:54 PM
In Germany, a union representative must be included in the company's board of directors. It appears that this leads to better labor relations in general.

Too bad the GOP would burn this country to the ground before it would consider something like that.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-22 12:26:26 PM
LadySusan:

Anyone who believes that VW isn't making decisions about what, where, and how to do anything based on all available data...wages, unions, availability of water/power/parts/interweb/freeways/shipping, and etc. is smoking something that ain't tobacco. The same goes for anyone who believes that any official speaking for VW on the record hasn't carefully vetted all speech through legal.

Funny "invisible dick" picture though! Also, sorry the vote went the way it did.


If it was intended to influence the vote then it was a violation of federal labor law.
 
2014-02-22 12:28:35 PM

Pimparoo: Too bad the GOP would burn this country to the ground before it would consider something like that.


You might not have been able to see because of all the smoke, but burning this country to the ground is exactly what they've been doing for some time now.
 
2014-02-22 12:29:47 PM

LadySusan: Hey, I'm the libbiest lib that ever libbed and I'm not seeing an egregious lie from Corker. From this http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/feb/13/bob-corker-defends-suv - remark-after-volkswagen-str/

it sounds like he said VW would decide where to build a new SUV based on the union vote. The plant manager said, "Nope, no correlation between the two at all."

Anyone who believes that VW isn't making decisions about what, where, and how to do anything based on all available data...wages, unions, availability of water/power/parts/interweb/freeways/shipping, and etc. is smoking something that ain't tobacco. The same goes for anyone who believes that any official speaking for VW on the record hasn't carefully vetted all speech through legal.

Funny "invisible dick" picture though! Also, sorry the vote went the way it did.


The relationship between companies and their labor force isn't the same in Germany as what we are used to here. In a plant with thousands of workers, having a single union to deal with instead of thousands and thousands of workers is easier especially when the union and the company aren't automatically considered enemies. As someone else mentioned, in Germany a union typically gets a representative on the company board. The resulting stability in labor is a good thing for the company and many of the HR headaches get offloaded onto the union.
 
2014-02-22 12:30:40 PM

LadySusan: Hey, I'm the libbiest lib that ever libbed and I'm not seeing an egregious lie from Corker. From this http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/feb/13/bob-corker-defends-suv - remark-after-volkswagen-str/

it sounds like he said VW would decide where to build a new SUV based on the union vote. The plant manager said, "Nope, no correlation between the two at all."

Anyone who believes that VW isn't making decisions about what, where, and how to do anything based on all available data...wages, unions, availability of water/power/parts/interweb/freeways/shipping, and etc. is smoking something that ain't tobacco. The same goes for anyone who believes that any official speaking for VW on the record hasn't carefully vetted all speech through legal.

Funny "invisible dick" picture though! Also, sorry the vote went the way it did.


Plenty of cars are already made by American union labor. Why is it so unthinkable that VW would add one more?

Unions aren't all "cost" to companies--there can be benefits, too.
 
2014-02-22 12:30:50 PM
Ill disclose first that I'm not a fan of unions. I don't think there's any love for the UAW and the vote showed that. But I watched an interview with this guy and he comes across as an insincere blow hard and obviously not that bright. This thing could be over but he just had to use it to get himself associated with it somehow and possibly given an opening for a redo.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-22 12:32:52 PM
Pimparoo:

Plenty of cars are already made by American union labor. Why is it so unthinkable that VW would add one more?

Unions aren't all "cost" to companies--there can be benefits, too.


That's why management was for it.  Germany has solved that problem.  They do just fine with unions.
 
2014-02-22 12:46:16 PM
Why do they need a new election? They already have nearly half of the workforce, more than enough to shut down production by striking, which is the basic source of power of a union. Or at least it would be if anyone remembered how unions got power in the first place.
 
2014-02-22 12:49:03 PM

coffeeplease: Ill disclose first that I'm not a fan of unions. I don't think there's any love for the UAW and the vote showed that. But I watched an interview with this guy and he comes across as an insincere blow hard and obviously not that bright. This thing could be over but he just had to use it to get himself associated with it somehow and possibly given an opening for a redo.


FTA:Workers at the plant voted 712 to 626 to turn back the UAW organizing effort.

There's that number again!  47% of the people at that plant have 'any love for the UAW'.  And apparently the UAW thinks at least 3% of the rest might have been swayed by Corker's lie.
 
2014-02-22 12:53:05 PM
It would be great to see the gymnastics Corker performs if VW decideds to put the new production in Mexico where the workers are unionized.
 
2014-02-22 12:55:56 PM

mutterfark: FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

So I guess he will acknowledge that a majority of American voters "clearly spoke" with regards to Pres. Obama and the ACA, and urge his fellow Republicans to stop their objections?


They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.  Now it's greater than 0.   Detroit is what happens when a union puts itself ahead of their members.  It now comes down to: "Do I want a union or do I want a job?"  Organized labor did a number of great things including creating legislation at the federal level that oversees all labor conditions.  Now, they are just overhead.
 
2014-02-22 12:58:54 PM

tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.


Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-22 01:02:58 PM
tbeatty:

The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.  Now it's greater than 0.   Detroit is what happens when a union puts itself ahead of their members.  It now comes down to: "Do I want a union or do I want a job?"  Organized labor did a number of great things including creating legislation at the federal level that oversees all labor conditions.  Now, they are just overhead.

That's the spin.  Detroit is what happens when you let lobbyists write trade laws.

Garman auto makers are all unionized and they kept their manufacturing sector instead of exporting jobs to China.

Of course, they were fortunate enough to not have Reagan.
 
2014-02-22 01:03:34 PM

LadySusan: Hey, I'm the libbiest lib that ever libbed and I'm not seeing an egregious lie from Corker. From this http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/feb/13/bob-corker-defends-suv - remark-after-volkswagen-str/

it sounds like he said VW would decide where to build a new SUV based on the union vote. The plant manager said, "Nope, no correlation between the two at all."

Anyone who believes that VW isn't making decisions about what, where, and how to do anything based on all available data...wages, unions, availability of water/power/parts/interweb/freeways/shipping, and etc. is smoking something that ain't tobacco. The same goes for anyone who believes that any official speaking for VW on the record hasn't carefully vetted all speech through legal.

Funny "invisible dick" picture though! Also, sorry the vote went the way it did.


LazySusan; he specifically claimed that VW was against unions and would "reward" the state with additional vehicle production if they rejected the union vote.

Which is a lie.

tbeatty: The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW. Now it's greater than 0. Detroit is what happens when a union puts itself ahead of their members. It now comes down to: "Do I want a union or do I want a job?" Organized labor did a number of great things including creating legislation at the federal level that oversees all labor conditions. Now, they are just overhead.


Oooo, that's some quality lying.
 
2014-02-22 01:05:09 PM
He's too busy applying his Big Government solution to their Free Market arrangement with workers and unions.
 
2014-02-22 01:06:49 PM

tbeatty: mutterfark: FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

So I guess he will acknowledge that a majority of American voters "clearly spoke" with regards to Pres. Obama and the ACA, and urge his fellow Republicans to stop their objections?

They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.  Now it's greater than 0.   Detroit is what happens when a union puts itself ahead of their members.  It now comes down to: "Do I want a union or do I want a job?"  Organized labor did a number of great things including creating legislation at the federal level that oversees all labor conditions.  Now, they are just overhead.


What you are saying would be worth listening to if it didn't directly contradict what VW has said.

You don't want people to think you're a moron because you're a bad troll, you want people to think you're a moron because you're a good troll.
 
2014-02-22 01:10:06 PM
tbeatty: The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW. Now it's greater than 0. Detroit is what happens when a union puts itself ahead of their members. It now comes down to: "Do I want a union or do I want a job?" Organized labor did a number of great things including creating legislation at the federal level that oversees all labor conditions. Now, they are just overhead.

Oooo, that's some quality lying.


I dunno, that doesn't seem very quality to me. Maybe if we got a union for the trolls, there would be a minimum standard for trolling.
 
2014-02-22 01:13:49 PM

IamTomJoad: It would be great to see the gymnastics Corker performs if VW decideds to put the new production in Mexico where the workers are unionized.


This is right in my backyard. We obviously need the jobs here and I hope VW chooses to build the new vehicle in Chattanooga.

I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that a small part of me hopes they build it elsewhere just to help expose the locals to the asshats republicans really are.
 
2014-02-22 01:15:34 PM

tbeatty: The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.


Absolute, utter horsecrap. Further expansion of VW plants in the entire South and other so-called "right to work" states is now extremely unlikely because VW management (half of which is labor) requires that there be a work council at each plant, which in the United States must be done through a union. The unionization was partly management's idea, and now that anti-business Republicans are threatening their business if they run the way they like, Volkswagen is likely not to stay in the South. And your party is actively trying to drive away any company with a unionized workforce.

So, going to reconsider your stupid statement like a human being with an inquisitive mind, or are you going to double down on the derp?
 
2014-02-22 01:17:37 PM

tbeatty: mutterfark: FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

So I guess he will acknowledge that a majority of American voters "clearly spoke" with regards to Pres. Obama and the ACA, and urge his fellow Republicans to stop their objections?

They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.  Now it's greater than 0.   Detroit is what happens when a union puts itself ahead of their members.  It now comes down to: "Do I want a union or do I want a job?"  Organized labor did a number of great things including creating legislation at the federal level that oversees all labor conditions.  Now, they are just overhead.


Christ, there's that bullshiat "look what the unions did to Detroit" right-wing talking point. You idiots sound like a bad song played on a scratched 45 rpm record.
 
2014-02-22 01:19:39 PM

tbeatty: Organized labor did a number of great things including creating legislation at the federal level that oversees all labor conditions.


And the Plutocrat Party is hellbent on repealing that legislation, because job creators.
 
2014-02-22 01:24:14 PM
For allwe know, Corker is telling the truth.  VW may have told him exactly what he claims they said.  But VW was smart enough to know that making that statement public would open them to charges that they were trying to illegally influence the vote.  So they tell Corker knowing he wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut and thus would do VW's dirty work for them.  And they get deniability.
 
2014-02-22 01:27:40 PM

vpb: LadySusan:

Anyone who believes that VW isn't making decisions about what, where, and how to do anything based on all available data...wages, unions, availability of water/power/parts/interweb/freeways/shipping, and etc. is smoking something that ain't tobacco. The same goes for anyone who believes that any official speaking for VW on the record hasn't carefully vetted all speech through legal.

Funny "invisible dick" picture though! Also, sorry the vote went the way it did.

If it was intended to influence the vote then it was a violation of federal labor law.


Mr. Dragon and I were talking about that last night, actually. It sounds like the NLRB -might- actually not be able to do anything about this case, because all their laws and violations are set up on the premise that the "meddler" is the employer, not some outsider asshat with no actual stake. If VW had interfered or threatened reprisal, yeah, the NLRB would already be winding up to throw the book at them. But they didn't. It'll be interesting to see what they do with this appeal.

Mr. Dragon's opinion on the whole thing was basically "the governor is someone I find morally reprehensible, but he at least - if he's a smart politician - can fall back on 'listen, i was elected by my constituency to uphold their best interests and they are very firmly right-to-work, so giving you incentives to build a union shop here is against the call i was elected to answer'. He is within his rights to suggest repercussions. Corker, though, is a meddling asshat who deserves to be smacked down hard for this." (I agree, but he said it way better than I did.)

Honestly, if I were VW, I'd start talking to Gov. Deal over in GA about this, as well as the Carolinas, VA, KY, AR, and even LA. Tell them you aren't appreciative of the anti-business atmosphere in TN and are looking for a new home for a rather impressive plant. (VW adds $12B to Tennessee's GDP, pays 1.4BN in annual taxes, injected almost another billion in plant-construction contracts and supplying dealerships with cars, and employs like 3000 people.) Make it clear that you're looking to move specifically because of the government meddling in the affairs of your worker/corporate relationship and you aren't gonna go anywhere if it happens again. GA would be especially lucrative because Dalton is only 30 minutes from Chattanooga, so you could basically keep your workforce intact - but offer your existing workers the chance to move, and pay for their relocation, because the workers shouldn't have to pay the price for this.

/i am not VW
//nor am i Spartacus
///i've got a few slashies though
/did I say Corker's an asshat? because he totally is
 
2014-02-22 01:28:23 PM

tbeatty: mutterfark: FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

So I guess he will acknowledge that a majority of American voters "clearly spoke" with regards to Pres. Obama and the ACA, and urge his fellow Republicans to stop their objections?

They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.  Now it's greater than 0.   Detroit is what happens when a union puts itself ahead of their members.  It now comes down to: "Do I want a union or do I want a job?"  Organized labor did a number of great things including creating legislation at the federal level that oversees all labor conditions.  Now, they are just overhead.


stream1.gifsoup.com
 
2014-02-22 01:31:49 PM

The Bananadragon: Honestly, if I were VW, I'd start talking to Gov. Deal over in GA about this, as well as the Carolinas, VA, KY, AR, and even LA. Tell them you aren't appreciative of the anti-business atmosphere in TN and are looking for a new home for a rather impressive plant. (VW adds $12B to Tennessee's GDP, pays 1.4BN in annual taxes, injected almost another billion in plant-construction contracts and supplying dealerships with cars, and employs like 3000 people.) Make it clear that you're looking to move specifically because of the government meddling in the affairs of your worker/corporate relationship and you aren't gonna go anywhere if it happens again. GA would be especially lucrative because Dalton is only 30 minutes from Chattanooga, so you could basically keep your workforce intact - but offer your existing workers the chance to move, and pay for their relocation, because the workers shouldn't have to pay the price for this.


No, I think VW's retaliation would be to make that SUV in Mexico, despite any incentives for "turning away the union".

/Has no one mentioned that VW was a joint filer in that appeal?
//They want this union.
 
2014-02-22 01:35:13 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Republicans went past doubling-down on lies a few decades ago.  They're up to so many multiples-of-down that it has to be expressed in scientific notation.


I was teaching fallacies the other day, and two textbook examples, literally, are talking points of the republican party.
 
2014-02-22 01:37:51 PM

MisterEZ: Pimparoo: Too bad the GOP would burn this country to the ground before it would consider something like that.

You might not have been able to see because of all the smoke, but burning this country to the ground is exactly what they've been doing for some time now.


And to think this all started with Ronald Reagan, whom everyone voted for in 1980 because everyone was having ROID RAGE over the Iranian Hostage Crisis. Little did these cretins know that while they were voting for Ronnie so he could smash the Iranians, he was conspiring with the Ayatollah to keep those hostages until after the election, with a secret shipment of military missiles as tribute afterward.

And THEN use that money to help sponsor Latin American Death Squads.

Just evil evil evil from A to Z! That's the GOP.
 
2014-02-22 01:41:00 PM

runwiz: For allwe know, Corker is telling the truth.  VW may have told him exactly what he claims they said.  But VW was smart enough to know that making that statement public would open them to charges that they were trying to illegally influence the vote.  So they tell Corker knowing he wouldn't be able to keep his mouth shut and thus would do VW's dirty work for them.  And they get deniability.


Somehow, I don't buy into the "everyone is lying but the politician" argument.
 
2014-02-22 01:42:23 PM

CREDIT: REUTERS/CHRISTOPHER ALUKA BERRY


(Reuters) - Volkswagen's top labor representative threatened on Wednesday to try to block further investments by the German carmaker in the southern United States if its workers there are not unionized.

Workers at VW's factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee, last Friday voted against representation by the United Auto Workers union (UAW), rejecting efforts by VW representatives to set up a German-style works council at the plant.

German workers enjoy considerable influence over company decisions under the legally enshrined "co-determination" principle which is anathema to many politicians in the U.S. who see organized labor as a threat to profits and job growth.

Chattanooga is VW's only factory in the U.S. and one of the company's few in the world without a works council.

"I can imagine fairly well that another VW factory in the United States, provided that one more should still be set up there, does not necessarily have to be assigned to the south again," said Bernd Osterloh, head of VW's works council.

"If co-determination isn't guaranteed in the first place, we as workers will hardly be able to vote in favor" of potentially building another plant in the U.S. south, Osterloh, who is also on VW's supervisory board, said.

The 20-member panel - evenly split between labor and management - has to approve any decision on closing plants or building new ones.

Osterloh's comments were published on Wednesday in German newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung. A spokesman at the Wolfsburg-based works council confirmed the remarks.

 
2014-02-22 01:46:42 PM

KWess: CREDIT: REUTERS/CHRISTOPHER ALUKA BERRY
(Reuters) - Volkswagen's top labor representative threatened on Wednesday to try to block further investments by the German carmaker in the southern United States if its workers there are not unionized.Workers at VW's factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee, last Friday voted against representation by the United Auto Workers union (UAW), rejecting efforts by VW representatives to set up a German-style works council at the plant.
German workers enjoy considerable influence over company decisions under the legally enshrined "co-determination" principle which is anathema to many politicians in the U.S. who see organized labor as a threat to profits and job growth.
Chattanooga is VW's only factory in the U.S. and one of the company's few in the world without a works council.
"I can imagine fairly well that another VW factory in the United States, provided that one more should still be set up there, does not necessarily have to be assigned to the south again," said Bernd Osterloh, head of VW's works council."If co-determination isn't guaranteed in the first place, we as workers will hardly be able to vote in favor" of potentially building another plant in the U.S. south, Osterloh, who is also on VW's supervisory board, said.
The 20-member panel - evenly split between labor and management - has to approve any decision on closing plants or building new ones.
Osterloh's comments were published on Wednesday in German newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung. A spokesman at the Wolfsburg-based works council confirmed the remarks.


Conservatives are going to keep sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending VW operates like an American company, and will take glee in paying its workers less just so it can negotiate thousands of times instead of just once, and have no discernible organization with whom to coordinate efforts. Frankly, the GOP hates people who make a living by working instead of investing, so it's no surprise how hard they are working to delude themselves into believing everyone else is as economically inept as they are.
 
2014-02-22 01:50:50 PM

the_vegetarian_cannibal: Bareefer Obonghit: Mugato: Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.

He's already showing off his bukkake technique in that picture

Less about Bob Corker in this thread! More of his daughter!

[www.misterorange.com image 480x452]


Yes! Let's have more "Photos of Julia Corker tagged by others".
 
2014-02-22 01:51:39 PM
Sigh...

Bob Corker was doing so good until this shiat..

Supporting immigration reform despite campaigning as a xenophobic teatard.
Calling out Mitch McConnel on his obstructionist horseshiat
Actually working with democrats to like.. govern..

Now he's gone full derp retard.

Sigh... Tennessee republicans are strange birds.
 
2014-02-22 01:52:00 PM

IlGreven: The Bananadragon: Honestly, if I were VW, I'd start talking to Gov. Deal over in GA about this, as well as the Carolinas, VA, KY, AR, and even LA. Tell them you aren't appreciative of the anti-business atmosphere in TN and are looking for a new home for a rather impressive plant. (VW adds $12B to Tennessee's GDP, pays 1.4BN in annual taxes, injected almost another billion in plant-construction contracts and supplying dealerships with cars, and employs like 3000 people.) Make it clear that you're looking to move specifically because of the government meddling in the affairs of your worker/corporate relationship and you aren't gonna go anywhere if it happens again. GA would be especially lucrative because Dalton is only 30 minutes from Chattanooga, so you could basically keep your workforce intact - but offer your existing workers the chance to move, and pay for their relocation, because the workers shouldn't have to pay the price for this.

No, I think VW's retaliation would be to make that SUV in Mexico, despite any incentives for "turning away the union".

/Has no one mentioned that VW was a joint filer in that appeal?
//They want this union.


I think VW is going to end up moving this plant, and not to another Southern state, just to avoid this headache. It is pretty clear that their union doesn't want a plant in the south, or any Right to Work states, anymore.
 
2014-02-22 01:55:19 PM

firefly212: KWess: CREDIT: REUTERS/CHRISTOPHER ALUKA BERRY
(Reuters) - Volkswagen's top labor representative threatened on Wednesday to try to block further investments by the German carmaker in the southern United States if its workers there are not unionized.Workers at VW's factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee, last Friday voted against representation by the United Auto Workers union (UAW), rejecting efforts by VW representatives to set up a German-style works council at the plant.
German workers enjoy considerable influence over company decisions under the legally enshrined "co-determination" principle which is anathema to many politicians in the U.S. who see organized labor as a threat to profits and job growth.
Chattanooga is VW's only factory in the U.S. and one of the company's few in the world without a works council.
"I can imagine fairly well that another VW factory in the United States, provided that one more should still be set up there, does not necessarily have to be assigned to the south again," said Bernd Osterloh, head of VW's works council."If co-determination isn't guaranteed in the first place, we as workers will hardly be able to vote in favor" of potentially building another plant in the U.S. south, Osterloh, who is also on VW's supervisory board, said.
The 20-member panel - evenly split between labor and management - has to approve any decision on closing plants or building new ones.
Osterloh's comments were published on Wednesday in German newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung. A spokesman at the Wolfsburg-based works council confirmed the remarks.

Conservatives are going to keep sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending VW operates like an American company, and will take glee in paying its workers less just so it can negotiate thousands of times instead of just once, and have no discernible organization with whom to coordinate efforts. Frankly, the GOP hates people who make a living by working instead of investing, so it's no surprise how hard they are ...




They won't negotiate thousands of times for labour...that's the trick...they don't negotiate at all. Take it or leave it.

I work in Europe. On vacation next week. That means I only have 7-weeks left to use by October...
 
2014-02-22 01:57:44 PM

Marcus Aurelius: The Germans aren't used to all this union hate.  It sure looks unseemly to me.


Hey Pal, Americans have already gotten to experience plenty of "ze Germans" unionization. Hitler was in the UAW if you recall, and we all know how that lead to the death of around 5,000 Jews.

With Russia getting all uppity again you'd do well to keep your opinions to yourself if you expect any of our boys to come and die to protect you... again. You're welcome by the way.
 
2014-02-22 02:02:07 PM

KWess: They won't negotiate thousands of times for labour...that's the trick...they don't negotiate at all. Take it or leave it.

I work in Europe. On vacation next week. That means I only have 7-weeks left to use by October...


Yeah! Those mean Germans! Forcing vacation time onto its workers, because of the illusion that a well-rested workforce is an efficient workforce! How dare they!

/The pyramids weren't built by union labor, and neither are good ol' Amurcan cars!
 
2014-02-22 02:03:20 PM

IlGreven: KWess: They won't negotiate thousands of times for labour...that's the trick...they don't negotiate at all. Take it or leave it.

I work in Europe. On vacation next week. That means I only have 7-weeks left to use by October...

Yeah! Those mean Germans! Forcing vacation time onto its workers, because of the illusion that a well-rested workforce is an efficient workforce! How dare they!

/The pyramids weren't built by union labor, and neither are good ol' Amurcan cars!


Actually, the pyramids were built with union labor.
 
2014-02-22 02:04:51 PM
The GOP's assholeness in this thing was because the GOP is afraid VW would come in, work really really well with labor through the union, and everybody would think it's a great thing... which might lead to unionization at other plants and in other industries.  The GOP just doesn't want to be shown up as liars by a functional, beneficial management/union/labor relationship.

Because the GOP represents people.  Corporate people, my friend.
 
2014-02-22 02:16:08 PM

captainktainer: tbeatty: The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.

Derp...

So, going to reconsider your stupid statement like a human being with an inquisitive mind, or are you going to double down on the derp?


No he is going to do what every other right wing troll does after they have dumped their unproven and indefensible lies talking points.

Leave the thread and do it again elsewhere elsewhere.
 
2014-02-22 02:21:03 PM

KWess: CREDIT: REUTERS/CHRISTOPHER ALUKA BERRY
(Reuters) - Volkswagen's top labor representative threatened on Wednesday to try to block further investments by the German carmaker in the southern United States if its workers there are not unionized.Workers at VW's factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee, last Friday voted against representation by the United Auto Workers union (UAW), rejecting efforts by VW representatives to set up a German-style works council at the plant.
German workers enjoy considerable influence over company decisions under the legally enshrined "co-determination" principle which is anathema to many politicians in the U.S. who see organized labor as a threat to profits and job growth.
Chattanooga is VW's only factory in the U.S. and one of the company's few in the world without a works council.
"I can imagine fairly well that another VW factory in the United States, provided that one more should still be set up there, does not necessarily have to be assigned to the south again," said Bernd Osterloh, head of VW's works council."If co-determination isn't guaranteed in the first place, we as workers will hardly be able to vote in favor" of potentially building another plant in the U.S. south, Osterloh, who is also on VW's supervisory board, said.
The 20-member panel - evenly split between labor and management - has to approve any decision on closing plants or building new ones.
Osterloh's comments were published on Wednesday in German newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung. A spokesman at the Wolfsburg-based works council confirmed the remarks.


Sounds like Corker may have cost them the expansion. And possibly any more plants in the south. Good Job Bob!
 
2014-02-22 02:29:16 PM

Hobodeluxe: Sounds like Corker may have cost them the expansion. And possibly any more plants in the south. Good Job Bob!


All part of that "laser-like focus".
 
2014-02-22 02:29:25 PM
Oh boy another HURR DURR the private sector is better than unions thread.

I can't wait to see where it goes.
 
2014-02-22 02:29:52 PM

The Bananadragon: Honestly, if I were VW, I'd start talking to Gov. Deal over in GA about this, as well as the Carolinas, VA, KY, AR, and even LA. Tell them you aren't appreciative of the anti-business atmosphere in TN and are looking for a new home for a rather impressive plant. (VW adds $12B to Tennessee's GDP, pays 1.4BN in annual taxes, injected almost another billion in plant-construction contracts and supplying dealerships with cars, and employs like 3000 people.) Make it clear that you're looking to move specifically because of the government meddling in the affairs of your worker/corporate relationship and you aren't gonna go anywhere if it happens again. GA would be especially lucrative because Dalton is only 30 minutes from Chattanooga, so you could basically keep your workforce intact - but offer your existing workers the chance to move, and pay for their relocation, because the workers shouldn't have to pay the price for this.


One thing I forgot to add: Georgia is just as bad as Tennessee on jobs, making decisions that destroy economies, like their refusal to expand Medicaid, leaving many patients unable to pay for care, and many hospitals either footing the bill for those patients or not having enough patients to justify their costs...so they're laying off doctors and nurses, or worse yet, shutting down altogether. And then, of course, their draconian immigration policy that is basically destroying a lot of farms who don't have enough labor to harvest their crops. And that's even before we talk about letting in a known union-friendly business into the state.
 
2014-02-22 02:30:04 PM

KWess: CREDIT: REUTERS/CHRISTOPHER ALUKA BERRY
(Reuters) - Volkswagen's top labor representative threatened on Wednesday to try to block further investments by the German carmaker in the southern United States if its workers there are not unionized.Workers at VW's factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee, last Friday voted against representation by the United Auto Workers union (UAW), rejecting efforts by VW representatives to set up a German-style works council at the plant.
German workers enjoy considerable influence over company decisions under the legally enshrined "co-determination" principle which is anathema to many politicians in the U.S. who see organized labor as a threat to profits and job growth.
Chattanooga is VW's only factory in the U.S. and one of the company's few in the world without a works council.
"I can imagine fairly well that another VW factory in the United States, provided that one more should still be set up there, does not necessarily have to be assigned to the south again," said Bernd Osterloh, head of VW's works council."If co-determination isn't guaranteed in the first place, we as workers will hardly be able to vote in favor" of potentially building another plant in the U.S. south, Osterloh, who is also on VW's supervisory board, said.
The 20-member panel - evenly split between labor and management - has to approve any decision on closing plants or building new ones.
Osterloh's comments were published on Wednesday in German newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung. A spokesman at the Wolfsburg-based works council confirmed the remarks.


Excellent! Let's hope the media manages to make it clear that VW itself is on board with the union.
 
2014-02-22 02:38:54 PM
If I were in the management of VW I'd be concerned about any expansion in TN solely due to the apparent willingness of the government there to interfere with business and renege on deals for purely political purposes. The State GOP made it perfectly clear they'd back out of existing inventive deals if the vote passed. They've proven that the incentive deals that made VW move to that state in the first place aren't worth the paper they are printed on and the local politicians will tear them up at a whim. That's not a state I'd want to do business in.
 
2014-02-22 02:39:07 PM

captainktainer: tbeatty: The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.

Absolute, utter horsecrap. Further expansion of VW plants in the entire South and other so-called "right to work" states is now extremely unlikely because VW management (half of which is labor) requires that there be a work council at each plant, which in the United States must be done through a union. The unionization was partly management's idea, and now that anti-business Republicans are threatening their business if they run the way they like, Volkswagen is likely not to stay in the South. And your party is actively trying to drive away any company with a unionized workforce.

So, going to reconsider your stupid statement like a human being with an inquisitive mind, or are you going to double down on the derp?


Who would know more about what VW is going to do, Bob Corker - making up a promise from VW - or VW itself saying they never promised a thing?

Corker can keep moving his stroking hand while VW eventually closes the plant in Tennessee.
 
2014-02-22 02:44:15 PM

IlGreven: The Bananadragon: Honestly, if I were VW, I'd start talking to Gov. Deal over in GA about this, as well as the Carolinas, VA, KY, AR, and even LA. Tell them you aren't appreciative of the anti-business atmosphere in TN and are looking for a new home for a rather impressive plant. (VW adds $12B to Tennessee's GDP, pays 1.4BN in annual taxes, injected almost another billion in plant-construction contracts and supplying dealerships with cars, and employs like 3000 people.) Make it clear that you're looking to move specifically because of the government meddling in the affairs of your worker/corporate relationship and you aren't gonna go anywhere if it happens again. GA would be especially lucrative because Dalton is only 30 minutes from Chattanooga, so you could basically keep your workforce intact - but offer your existing workers the chance to move, and pay for their relocation, because the workers shouldn't have to pay the price for this.

One thing I forgot to add: Georgia is just as bad as Tennessee on jobs, making decisions that destroy economies, like their refusal to expand Medicaid, leaving many patients unable to pay for care, and many hospitals either footing the bill for those patients or not having enough patients to justify their costs...so they're laying off doctors and nurses, or worse yet, shutting down altogether. And then, of course, their draconian immigration policy that is basically destroying a lot of farms who don't have enough labor to harvest their crops. And that's even before we talk about letting in a known union-friendly business into the state.


While true, they also just blew through a pretty massive weather crisis, and I bet they'd love to get some sweet taxy lucre their way. I agree that it probably isn't enough to accept those filthy unions, but GA and NC are the two bluest states in the south, and so are the best chances for VW to stay close to where they currently are. They'd just have to make it more than clear to GA's government that the entire reason they're leaving TN is because the government there is hostile to unions, and they are NOT gonna put up with that crap from wherever they move to, so either GA guarantees VW the right to run its business how it wants to, or they just don't even try moving there.

My other personal favorite place for them to move is of course back to motherfarking Detroit. More likely, though, they'd go to IA or PA or something.

Also, that thing about the SUV line. the TN plant has the infrastructure to build two types of car, and with a union on board in the plant, they'd almost certainly have done it (or at minimum, wouldn't have hesitated about the costs). Now they not only probably won't do it, the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.
 
2014-02-22 02:45:49 PM

TV's Vinnie: And to think this all started with Ronald Reagan, whom everyone voted for in 1980 because everyone was having ROID RAGE over the Iranian Hostage Crisis.


That was a big part of Reagan's win, but it wasn't all of it. Like many young liberals at the time, I was severely disillusioned with Carter. A lot of us were disgusted by Carter's appointment of Griffin Bell to the office of Attorney General (disgust which was entirely misplaced, as it happens - Bell ended up being a damned fine AG), but the big issue was reinstatement of draft registration. Most of us could remember the draft, remembered neighbors and our friends' big brothers getting sent to Vietnam, remembered the sense of victory when the draft finally ended and so considered draft registration the thin edge of the wedge to a return to the bad old days. Draft registration went a long way towards demoralizing what should have been Carter's base in 1980, and made Reagan's job as candidate a lot easier.
 
2014-02-22 02:47:56 PM

The Bananadragon: the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.


Cue the NRA trumpeting their 2nd Am right to do so.
 
2014-02-22 02:59:19 PM

More_Like_A_Stain: The Bananadragon: the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.

Cue the NRA trumpeting their 2nd Am right to do so.


We may just have to build that long wall after all, but not to keep out the Messikinz but to keep out Southerners.
 
2014-02-22 03:00:20 PM

More_Like_A_Stain: The Bananadragon: the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.

Cue the NRA trumpeting their 2nd Am right to do so.


Maybe they should start inviting gun manufacturers down there. You know, for when the South is Gonna Do it Agin™.
 
2014-02-22 03:00:48 PM

EngineerAU: LadySusan: Hey, I'm the libbiest lib that ever libbed and I'm not seeing an egregious lie from Corker. From this http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/feb/13/bob-corker-defends-suv - remark-after-volkswagen-str/

it sounds like he said VW would decide where to build a new SUV based on the union vote. The plant manager said, "Nope, no correlation between the two at all."

Anyone who believes that VW isn't making decisions about what, where, and how to do anything based on all available data...wages, unions, availability of water/power/parts/interweb/freeways/shipping, and etc. is smoking something that ain't tobacco. The same goes for anyone who believes that any official speaking for VW on the record hasn't carefully vetted all speech through legal.

Funny "invisible dick" picture though! Also, sorry the vote went the way it did.

The relationship between companies and their labor force isn't the same in Germany as what we are used to here. In a plant with thousands of workers, having a single union to deal with instead of thousands and thousands of workers is easier especially when the union and the company aren't automatically considered enemies. As someone else mentioned, in Germany a union typically gets a representative on the company board. The resulting stability in labor is a good thing for the company and many of the HR headaches get offloaded onto the union.


Also, having unionized labor exempts them from lots of regulation, including minimum wage laws, even.
 
2014-02-22 03:01:36 PM

Mugato: Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.

[media.timesfreepress.com image 618x410]


His gay porn name is Cob Borker.
 
2014-02-22 03:19:58 PM

SilentStrider: Anyone surprised by this?
No?
Good.


This, clearly. Basic GOP strategy - repeat falsehoods until enough folks believe them to be the truth, regardless of the actual truth. If they can convince just one person in 10, it's enough to sow confusion and ensure 10% of any vote.
 
2014-02-22 03:27:53 PM
Come to Washington State, we are fine with Unions here.
 
2014-02-22 03:30:48 PM

netringer: captainktainer: tbeatty: The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.

Absolute, utter horsecrap. Further expansion of VW plants in the entire South and other so-called "right to work" states is now extremely unlikely because VW management (half of which is labor) requires that there be a work council at each plant, which in the United States must be done through a union. The unionization was partly management's idea, and now that anti-business Republicans are threatening their business if they run the way they like, Volkswagen is likely not to stay in the South. And your party is actively trying to drive away any company with a unionized workforce.

So, going to reconsider your stupid statement like a human being with an inquisitive mind, or are you going to double down on the derp?

Who would know more about what VW is going to do, Bob Corker - making up a promise from VW - or VW itself saying they never promised a thing?

Corker can keep moving his stroking hand while VW eventually closes the plant in Tennessee.


At which point the Republicans will blame the plant closure on the Unions.

And the idiot right wing asswits that vote for them will believe it.
 
2014-02-22 03:44:34 PM

Krymson Tyde: IamTomJoad: It would be great to see the gymnastics Corker performs if VW decideds to put the new production in Mexico where the workers are unionized.

This is right in my backyard. We obviously need the jobs here and I hope VW chooses to build the new vehicle in Chattanooga.

I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that a small part of me hopes they build it elsewhere just to help expose the locals to the asshats republicans really are.


I'd love to see VW say 'if Corker gets reelected, we are moving the plant. Union or no union, Democrat or Republican is fine, but no Corker'.

It'll never happen though.

Chattanooga is a beautiful place. I love it down there.
 
2014-02-22 03:56:33 PM
Sticking to the big lie with great conviction and fury has been working for the republicans for decades. Why would they stop now?
 
2014-02-22 04:10:01 PM

The Bananadragon: Honestly, if I were VW, I'd start talking to Gov. Deal over in GA about this, as well as the Carolinas, VA, KY, AR, and even LA.


If they were to do that they'd need to keep in mind that it's an election year in Georgia and Deal might not even make it past the primary. While adding jobs would be good for his resume, if they come with a union attached he'll get tea partied out of office. While the odds of the Democrat's candidate Jason Carter getting elected in my estimate is about one in four, it might be worthwhile for VW to wait until after the election to start talking. Not sure what the political conditions are in most of the other southern states but I'm going to guess the Bobby Jindal would on his own be able to scare away VW.
 
2014-02-22 04:14:22 PM
If I was the CEO of VW I'd say "You know what? Fark the vote results, we're going to give the employees a works council, with all the benefits that entails, because that's just how we do business".
 
2014-02-22 04:23:34 PM

WhyteRaven74: If I was the CEO of VW I'd say "You know what? Fark the vote results, we're going to give the employees a works council, with all the benefits that entails, because that's just how we do business".


TN state law is biatch like that........
 
2014-02-22 04:31:24 PM

Mugato: Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.


I was thinking it sounds like a good name for a brand of fishing bobbers
 
2014-02-22 04:36:18 PM
FormlessOne
This, clearly. Basic GOP strategy - repeat falsehoods until enough folks believe them to be the truth, regardless of the actual truth. If they can convince just one person in 10, it's enough to sow confusion and ensure 10% of any vote.

Oh, it does them better than that, because it's not necessary to convince anyone at all- once there's enough confusion so that people who don't have the luxury of spending hours every day researching the news don't know what to believe, then appear strong and outraged. If people don't know who to vote for based on facts and reality, it comes down to a coin toss. That's 50% right there.
 
2014-02-22 04:49:22 PM

Bareefer Obonghit: Mugato: Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.

He's already showing off his bukkake technique in that picture


I thought that he was signing his answer for the deaf community to the question of "Bob, what is your IQ?"

the_vegetarian_cannibal: Bareefer Obonghit: Mugato: Bob Corker. That's a good gay porn name.

He's already showing off his bukkake technique in that picture

Less about Bob Corker in this thread! More of his daughter!

[www.misterorange.com image 480x452]


Is that douche on the right Bob's "secret" boyfriend, or just a general douche?
 
2014-02-22 04:51:58 PM

Thrag: If I were in the management of VW I'd be concerned about any expansion in TN solely due to the apparent willingness of the government there to interfere with business and renege on deals for purely political purposes. The State GOP made it perfectly clear they'd back out of existing inventive deals if the vote passed. They've proven that the incentive deals that made VW move to that state in the first place aren't worth the paper they are printed on and the local politicians will tear them up at a whim. That's not a state I'd want to do business in.


I know. While corkers statement was wrong and possibly illegal...I think it was more of an outrage that the tn govt threatened to reneg on existing tax subsidies if they unionized

1 how is that not illegal?
2 what the business is it of the govt how private entities deal with their labor?

That's that laser line focus and you know, less regulation for you.
 
2014-02-22 05:01:22 PM

tbeatty: Detroit is what happens when a union puts itself ahead of their members.


I thought Detroit is what happens when you have incompetent people running the big 3 automakers in addition to a city government that inserted too much race into local politics?

What do the unions have to do with all of that again?
 
2014-02-22 05:08:37 PM

SilentStrider: Anyone surprised by this?
No?
Good.


That the UAW wants to keep voting over and over until they get the result they want?

No. Not surprised at all.
 
2014-02-22 05:20:29 PM
ongbok:
I think VW is going to end up moving this plant, and not to another Southern state, just to avoid this headache. It is pretty clear that their union doesn't want a plant in the south, or any Right to Work states, anymore.

Unless things have changed, "Right to Work" isn't the same as non-union or anti-union. It means that  employees in union-represented shops don't have to pay dues (although the union still represents them). It does not prevent union representation.

/Free Riders, non-dues-payers in a union shop, were the original Liters
 
2014-02-22 05:21:23 PM

cchris_39: SilentStrider: Anyone surprised by this?
No?
Good.

That the UAW wants to keep voting over and over until they get the result they want?

No. Not surprised at all.


The vote has twice beenbinfkuenced by the government.

Once by threatening to take tax abatements away from vw if they unionized. The second time by spreading a falsehood that jobs would be threatened by unionization.

fark tn politicians, fark them right in the ear with a rusty icepick.
 
2014-02-22 05:22:58 PM

Great_Milenko: FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

No, the workers knew all to well that spiteful, vindictive republicans would do everything in their power to ruin their jobs if they voted for the Union.


THIS^^ They were more concerned that asshole republicans like Corker would do all they could to carry out the wishes of corporations and fark their good jobs up. VW now knows this, and is reconsidering future expansion in southern states because of morons like these.

From the link above: "I can imagine fairly well that another VW factory in the United States, provided that one more should still be set up there, does not necessarily have to be assigned to the south again," said Bernd Osterloh, head of VW's works council.
"If co-determination isn't guaranteed in the first place, we as workers will hardly be able to vote in favor" of potentially building another plant in the U.S. south, Osterloh, who is also on VW's supervisory board, said."


That's right... this is going to cost jobs, and it will be Corker and his corporate masters fault.

s3.amazonaws.com


Proof positive that the rest of the industrialized world isn't as backwards as the United States, and why they rightfully laugh at us... well, some of us.
 
2014-02-22 05:32:28 PM

Thrag: If I were in the management of VW I'd be concerned about any expansion in TN solely due to the apparent willingness of the government there to interfere with business and renege on deals for purely political purposes. The State GOP made it perfectly clear they'd back out of existing inventive deals if the vote passed. They've proven that the incentive deals that made VW move to that state in the first place aren't worth the paper they are printed on and the local politicians will tear them up at a whim. That's not a state I'd want to do business in.


See also: WI GOP hostility towards wind farms and other renewable energy projects
 
2014-02-22 05:33:17 PM

Great_Milenko: FTA: He said that workers "clearly spoke" last week during the vote in which VW workers rejected the United Auto Workers bid to organize the plant, and he expressed disappointment the UAW is "ignoring their decision" by filing an objection.

No, the workers knew all to well that spiteful, vindictive republicans would do everything in their power to ruin their jobs if they voted for the Union.


And it was still a pretty damn close vote.
 
2014-02-22 05:34:00 PM

tbeatty: The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.


Yeah, I'm sure they'd much rather have to deal with meddling public officials who try to steer them and their workers with political threats and interference.
 
2014-02-22 05:39:15 PM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Thrag: If I were in the management of VW I'd be concerned about any expansion in TN solely due to the apparent willingness of the government there to interfere with business and renege on deals for purely political purposes. The State GOP made it perfectly clear they'd back out of existing inventive deals if the vote passed. They've proven that the incentive deals that made VW move to that state in the first place aren't worth the paper they are printed on and the local politicians will tear them up at a whim. That's not a state I'd want to do business in.

See also: WI GOP hostility towards wind farms and other renewable energy projects


And trains, WI Republicans hate trains.
 
2014-02-22 06:16:34 PM

tbeatty: Detroit is what happens when a union puts itself ahead of their members.


hahaha

no
 
2014-02-22 06:23:26 PM

TV's Vinnie: More_Like_A_Stain: The Bananadragon: the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.

Cue the NRA trumpeting their 2nd Am right to do so.

We may just have to build that long wall after all, but not to keep out the Messikinz but to keep out Southerners.


Would I be allowed to pass through there? I'm a Northerner trapped in the South.
 
2014-02-22 06:40:24 PM
At this point I honestly hope that VW takes the work down to Mexico. fark the people in Tennessee for being this stupid, but fark the UAW too. Those people in Tennessee do not deserve to have such a good job and representation - take the jobs to Mexico so they can see the stupidity of their decision in stark reality.

You can be anti-union and not be stupid, but when you listen to the anti-union asshole raking in the big bucks from his billionaire backers - well you are just being stupid.
 
2014-02-22 07:41:38 PM

RanDomino: FormlessOne
This, clearly. Basic GOP strategy - repeat falsehoods until enough folks believe them to be the truth, regardless of the actual truth. If they can convince just one person in 10, it's enough to sow confusion and ensure 10% of any vote.

Oh, it does them better than that, because it's not necessary to convince anyone at all- once there's enough confusion so that people who don't have the luxury of spending hours every day researching the news don't know what to believe, then appear strong and outraged. If people don't know who to vote for based on facts and reality, it comes down to a coin toss. That's 50% right there.


Y'know, I was shooting for optimism today, damn it...
 
2014-02-22 08:01:29 PM

whidbey: More_Like_A_Stain: The Bananadragon: the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.

Cue the NRA trumpeting their 2nd Am right to do so.

Maybe they should start inviting gun manufacturers down there. You know, for when the South is Gonna Do it Agin™.


Remington just announced it's building a plant in Huntsville, AL. Rumor has it they are going to close their facility in Ilion, NY, though Remington denies it.
 
2014-02-22 08:29:30 PM

Krymson Tyde: whidbey: More_Like_A_Stain: The Bananadragon: the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.

Cue the NRA trumpeting their 2nd Am right to do so.

Maybe they should start inviting gun manufacturers down there. You know, for when the South is Gonna Do it Agin™.

Remington just announced it's building a plant in Huntsville, AL. Rumor has it they are going to close their facility in Ilion, NY, though Remington denies it.


Yeah and Remington was pretty much bribed with a $28 million incentive including buying the building they are moving to for them and paying for their move.  This is for 2000 jobs over a decades time.  Then there are the tax breaks.  It's more of a way for Gov. Bentley and the state GOP to "stick it to the libs, unions, & Obama" than it is an actual economic boost.
 
2014-02-22 08:43:38 PM

The Bananadragon: My other personal favorite place for them to move is of course back to motherfarking Detroit. More likely, though, they'd go to IA or PA or something.


That would be sweet, but Michigan Republicans rammed through Right to Work and joined the race to the bottom in December 2012.  I'm sure that takes MI off the table.
 
2014-02-22 08:50:32 PM
Senator Cock is a liar?  No way!
 
2014-02-22 08:52:06 PM
Facts are what you feel in your heart, not what is true.
 
2014-02-22 09:01:04 PM
So funny. Soooo much butthurt around here about workers voting down unionization despite the company allowing pro-union politicking in the factory while barring anti-union propaganda.
 
2014-02-22 09:18:51 PM

qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.


Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.
 
2014-02-22 09:36:40 PM

HarleyMarlboro: The Bananadragon: My other personal favorite place for them to move is of course back to motherfarking Detroit. More likely, though, they'd go to IA or PA or something.

That would be sweet, but Michigan Republicans rammed through Right to Work and joined the race to the bottom in December 2012.  I'm sure that takes MI off the table.


And to think, had Daimler been honestly interested in turning Chrysler into a good brand again (rather than funneling most of its carcass into M-B), Detroit might not be bankrupt.

Goes to show just how polar opposite two corps from the same country can be when it comes to ethics.
 
2014-02-22 09:44:47 PM

my lip balm addiction: At this point I honestly hope that VW takes the work down to Mexico. fark the people in Tennessee for being this stupid, but fark the UAW too. Those people in Tennessee do not deserve to have such a good job and representation - take the jobs to Mexico so they can see the stupidity of their decision in stark reality.

You can be anti-union and not be stupid, but when you listen to the anti-union asshole raking in the big bucks from his billionaire backers - well you are just being stupid.


That, or New York or California.
 
2014-02-22 09:47:43 PM

Generation_D: netringer: captainktainer: tbeatty: The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.

Absolute, utter horsecrap. Further expansion of VW plants in the entire South and other so-called "right to work" states is now extremely unlikely because VW management (half of which is labor) requires that there be a work council at each plant, which in the United States must be done through a union. The unionization was partly management's idea, and now that anti-business Republicans are threatening their business if they run the way they like, Volkswagen is likely not to stay in the South. And your party is actively trying to drive away any company with a unionized workforce.

So, going to reconsider your stupid statement like a human being with an inquisitive mind, or are you going to double down on the derp?

Who would know more about what VW is going to do, Bob Corker - making up a promise from VW - or VW itself saying they never promised a thing?

Corker can keep moving his stroking hand while VW eventually closes the plant in Tennessee.

At which point the Republicans will blame the plant closure on the Unions.

And the idiot right wing asswits that vote for them will believe it.


If union organizer asswipes keep appealing to courts and NLRB such that VW has to pay a lot in both money and employee resentment, they'll just go to mexico.    So yeah, if labor unions want to be a thorn in VWs side instead of Moving On, American workers lose and the unrepresented, unemployed workers should blame the UAW.

Don't worry though, libtards blame the NRA for gun deaths even though the NRA doesn't actually sue anyone to put guns in the hands of specific killers.  UAW is specifically targetting VW and it seems their goal is to either unionize or unemploy the lot of them.  Whose interest is that?
 
2014-02-22 09:49:28 PM

Satanic_Hamster: my lip balm addiction: At this point I honestly hope that VW takes the work down to Mexico. fark the people in Tennessee for being this stupid, but fark the UAW too. Those people in Tennessee do not deserve to have such a good job and representation - take the jobs to Mexico so they can see the stupidity of their decision in stark reality.

You can be anti-union and not be stupid, but when you listen to the anti-union asshole raking in the big bucks from his billionaire backers - well you are just being stupid.

That, or New York or California.


Huh? You would rather 1,500 Americans lose their jobs if those jobs are non-union? Even though they themselves voted to be non-union?
 
2014-02-22 09:50:50 PM

tbeatty: Generation_D: netringer: captainktainer: tbeatty: The chance of VW expanding in Tenn was 0% if they approved UAW.

Absolute, utter horsecrap. Further expansion of VW plants in the entire South and other so-called "right to work" states is now extremely unlikely because VW management (half of which is labor) requires that there be a work council at each plant, which in the United States must be done through a union. The unionization was partly management's idea, and now that anti-business Republicans are threatening their business if they run the way they like, Volkswagen is likely not to stay in the South. And your party is actively trying to drive away any company with a unionized workforce.

So, going to reconsider your stupid statement like a human being with an inquisitive mind, or are you going to double down on the derp?

Who would know more about what VW is going to do, Bob Corker - making up a promise from VW - or VW itself saying they never promised a thing?

Corker can keep moving his stroking hand while VW eventually closes the plant in Tennessee.

At which point the Republicans will blame the plant closure on the Unions.

And the idiot right wing asswits that vote for them will believe it.

If union organizer asswipes keep appealing to courts and NLRB such that VW has to pay a lot in both money and employee resentment, they'll just go to mexico.    So yeah, if labor unions want to be a thorn in VWs side instead of Moving On, American workers lose and the unrepresented, unemployed workers should blame the UAW.

Don't worry though, libtards blame the NRA for gun deaths even though the NRA doesn't actually sue anyone to put guns in the hands of specific killers.  UAW is specifically targetting VW and it seems their goal is to either unionize or unemploy the lot of them.  Whose interest is that?


Such infromed!
 
2014-02-22 10:10:10 PM

heavymetal: Krymson Tyde: whidbey: More_Like_A_Stain: The Bananadragon: the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.

Cue the NRA trumpeting their 2nd Am right to do so.

Maybe they should start inviting gun manufacturers down there. You know, for when the South is Gonna Do it Agin™.

Remington just announced it's building a plant in Huntsville, AL. Rumor has it they are going to close their facility in Ilion, NY, though Remington denies it.

Yeah and Remington was pretty much bribed with a $28 million incentive including buying the building they are moving to for them and paying for their move.  This is for 2000 jobs over a decades time.  Then there are the tax breaks.  It's more of a way for Gov. Bentley and the state GOP to "stick it to the libs, unions, & Obama" than it is an actual economic boost.


So sort of like Coker did with VW then.
 
2014-02-22 10:14:03 PM

Krymson Tyde: heavymetal: Krymson Tyde: whidbey: More_Like_A_Stain: The Bananadragon: the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.

Cue the NRA trumpeting their 2nd Am right to do so.

Maybe they should start inviting gun manufacturers down there. You know, for when the South is Gonna Do it Agin™.

Remington just announced it's building a plant in Huntsville, AL. Rumor has it they are going to close their facility in Ilion, NY, though Remington denies it.

Yeah and Remington was pretty much bribed with a $28 million incentive including buying the building they are moving to for them and paying for their move.  This is for 2000 jobs over a decades time.  Then there are the tax breaks.  It's more of a way for Gov. Bentley and the state GOP to "stick it to the libs, unions, & Obama" than it is an actual economic boost.

So sort of like Coker did with VW then.


*Corker
 
2014-02-22 10:33:13 PM
UAW acting like babies because they didn't get their way? Color me shocked.
 
2014-02-22 10:41:44 PM
tbeatty
If union organizer asswipes keep appealing to courts and NLRB such that VW has to pay a lot in both money and employee resentment, they'll just go to mexico. So yeah, if labor unions want to be a thorn in VWs side instead of Moving On, American workers lose and the unrepresented, unemployed workers should blame the UAW.

Don't worry though, libtards blame the NRA for gun deaths even though the NRA doesn't actually sue anyone to put guns in the hands of specific killers. UAW is specifically targetting VW and it seems their goal is to either unionize or unemploy the lot of them. Whose interest is that?


7/10. High marks for the awful grammar, repetition of ideas which have already been refuted earlier in the same thread, and roping guns into it, but the guns threadjack was too late to really take things off the rails, and it's a little too cliche overall.


Krymson Tyde
*Corker

Odds are you had it right the first time.
 
2014-02-22 10:42:26 PM
Just noticed the account was created all the way back in 2004, so I'll bump it to 8/10.
 
2014-02-22 11:39:49 PM

my lip balm addiction: At this point I honestly hope that VW takes the work down to Mexico. fark the people in Tennessee for being this stupid, but fark the UAW too. Those people in Tennessee do not deserve to have such a good job and representation - take the jobs to Mexico so they can see the stupidity of their decision in stark reality.

You can be anti-union and not be stupid, but when you listen to the anti-union asshole raking in the big bucks from his billionaire backers - well you are just being stupid.


just curious.  can they reject the UAW and still form their own union of some sort?  how would that work?
 
2014-02-22 11:46:10 PM

Satanic_Hamster: my lip balm addiction: At this point I honestly hope that VW takes the work down to Mexico. fark the people in Tennessee for being this stupid, but fark the UAW too. Those people in Tennessee do not deserve to have such a good job and representation - take the jobs to Mexico so they can see the stupidity of their decision in stark reality.

You can be anti-union and not be stupid, but when you listen to the anti-union asshole raking in the big bucks from his billionaire backers - well you are just being stupid.

That, or New York or California.


Same difference...
 
2014-02-23 12:01:17 AM

rga184: my lip balm addiction: At this point I honestly hope that VW takes the work down to Mexico. fark the people in Tennessee for being this stupid, but fark the UAW too. Those people in Tennessee do not deserve to have such a good job and representation - take the jobs to Mexico so they can see the stupidity of their decision in stark reality.

You can be anti-union and not be stupid, but when you listen to the anti-union asshole raking in the big bucks from his billionaire backers - well you are just being stupid.

just curious.  can they reject the UAW and still form their own union of some sort?  how would that work?


They could form anything they like.  The UAW would oppose it though.  We have a police force with two competing unions.  One is with the AFL-CIO, the other is homegrown.  The AFL-CIO is nasty.
 
2014-02-23 12:02:23 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Republicans went past doubling-down on lies a few decades ago.  They're up to so many multiples-of-down that it has to be expressed in scientific notation.


they've tried to divide the country so many times we're now an irrational number?

/yes
 
2014-02-23 12:05:21 AM

firefly212: Frankly, the GOP hates people who make a living by working instead of investing


yes, this is true. It's so much harder to steal money when people just don't put it into markets you can control and collude with.

yeech.
 
2014-02-23 12:23:09 AM

sobriquet by any other name: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Republicans went past doubling-down on lies a few decades ago.  They're up to so many multiples-of-down that it has to be expressed in scientific notation.

they've tried to divide the country so many times we're now an irrational number?

/yes


well, to be fair, the population was a prime number.
 
2014-02-23 01:33:57 AM
I have two FB friends that are very hard right wing, "pro-business anti-union" yammerers who go on endlessly about how "Liberal business hating government interference in the FREE MARKETS" is what cost us so many jobs over the years. One of them actually lives in Tennessee and is forever crowing about how farking wonderful it is there and how many jobs are coming there because "RIGHT TO WORK" blah blah blah...The other is a Republican fan boy who can spin even the most obvious GOP failures into somehow being the Democrats' fault.

Neither one of them have said ONE WORD about this on their pages. Not. One.
 
2014-02-23 01:35:49 AM

tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.


Any health insurance plan made "illegal" by the ACA was so abysmal it shouldn't have really counted as health insurance coverage in the first place.
 
2014-02-23 02:30:13 AM
rga184
just curious. can they reject the UAW and still form their own union of some sort? how would that work?

Legally, yes. In practice, it would be extremely difficult. In addition to the issues of having little or no organizational experience or funding, it's possible that the UAW would try to get on the ballot, and (unless it's different in TN for some reason) only a majority, not a plurality, can win- i.e. if 40% want UAW, 40% want the independent union, and 20% want no union, there would be no union since neither one managed to get more than 50%, even though 80% wanted some union. Still, probably worth it to try, in my opinion, as it would be ideal to see a truly member-run independent union.

This assumes that "a union" means "an incorporated organization which wins a union certification election, goes through all the NLRB bullshiat, has a contract, and takes dues to pay dedicated organizers and lawyers" which is really a model that needs to hurry up and die. When unions again base their strength on direct control by the workers and the power to strike, whether in the standard "nobody work" sense or something more creative, instead of bureaucracies that seem more interested in controlling the rank-and-file than in actually winning, then we can start to make progress.
 
2014-02-23 02:48:53 AM
Bob Corker's Campaign ad from 2006.
His opponent, Harold Ford was black...well he still is, but he's not his opponent anymore.
Anyways, come for the straw men, stay for the insinuation of a black guy banging a white woman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRmu0RXTpAo

Corker is a fool and a scumbag.
 
2014-02-23 03:43:56 AM

Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.

Any health insurance plan made "illegal" by the ACA was so abysmal it shouldn't have really counted as health insurance coverage in the first place.


The goggles, they do nothing.  The stupid, it burns.  Like 50+ married couples with a $5k deductible needed obstetric care with no deductible.  Hello?  McFly? Did anyone think that empty nest 50+ couples aren't going to have kids and can affod a $5k deductible?  That's right: "abysmal".  Faring retard.
 
2014-02-23 03:49:54 AM

coffeeplease: Ill disclose first that I'm not a fan of unions. I don't think there's any love for the UAW and the vote showed that. But I watched an interview with this guy and he comes across as an insincere blow hard and obviously not that bright. This thing could be over but he just had to use it to get himself associated with it somehow and possibly given an opening for a redo.


I'm a little late but. . .

I like unions, just not in the current incarnation. They have no teeth. However, anytime someone seriously suggests getting rid of unions, I hear this in my head:

Which Side Are You On - Florence Reece

/look up the story, it's a good one
 
2014-02-23 04:36:56 AM

tbeatty: Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.

Any health insurance plan made "illegal" by the ACA was so abysmal it shouldn't have really counted as health insurance coverage in the first place.

The goggles, they do nothing.  The stupid, it burns.  Like 50+ married couples with a $5k deductible needed obstetric care with no deductible.  Hello?  McFly? Did anyone think that empty nest 50+ couples aren't going to have kids and can affod a $5k deductible?  That's right: "abysmal".  Faring retard.



Well, let me first thank you for your polite, well reasoned, and coherent response- it is both easy to comprehend, and you elected not to make personal attacks, for which I applaud you.

Unfortunately, as you so kindly pointed out, I am somewhat mentally deficient, so could you possibly provide some additional information about these magically wonderful health insurance plans that became "illegal" due to the ACA?

In an attempt to be clear (though I can only hope to be so cogent and understandable as yourself), let me state that I am specifically looking for evidence of insurance plans which the ACA made illegal, and I'd appreciate citiations of the plans in questions, as well as the relevant sections of the legislation which outlaws them.  This does not include plans that were discontinued by the insurer as not-financially viable, as- at least to my own addled mind - "cause to become not financially viable" is not the same thing as "made illegal"
 
2014-02-23 04:38:48 AM

Jorn the Younger: "cause to become not financially viable" is not the same thing as "made illegal"


And not only because they're in different tenses.

"caused to become not financially viable" is not the same thing as "made illegal"
FTFM
 
2014-02-23 04:54:28 AM

Tegrator: Bob Corker's Campaign ad from 2006.
His opponent, Harold Ford was black...well he still is, but he's not his opponent anymore.
Anyways, come for the straw men, stay for the insinuation of a black guy banging a white woman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRmu0RXTpAo

Corker is a fool and a scumbag.


I had forgotten about that ad.
 
2014-02-23 05:01:23 AM

Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.

Any health insurance plan made "illegal" by the ACA was so abysmal it shouldn't have really counted as health insurance coverage in the first place.

The goggles, they do nothing.  The stupid, it burns.  Like 50+ married couples with a $5k deductible needed obstetric care with no deductible.  Hello?  McFly? Did anyone think that empty nest 50+ couples aren't going to have kids and can affod a $5k deductible?  That's right: "abysmal".  Faring retard.


Well, let me first thank you for your polite, well reasoned, and coherent response- it is both easy to comprehend, and you elected not to make personal attacks, for which I applaud you.

Unfortunately, as you so kindly pointed out, I am somewhat mentally deficient, so could you possibly provide some additional information about these magically wonderful health insurance plans that became "illegal" due to the ACA?

In an attempt to be clear (though I can only hope to be so cogent and understandable as yourself), let me state that I am specifically looking for evidence of insurance plans which the ACA made illegal, and I'd appreciate citiations of the plans in questions, as well as the relevant sections of the legislation which outlaws them.  This does not include plans that were discontinued by the insurer as not-financially viable, as- at least to my own addled mind - "cause to become not financially viable" is not the same thing as "made illegal"


Good luck.
I was debating a fellow the other day regarding health insurance. I tried to explain to him that am insurance company that used the ACA as an excuse to raise their rates was not the fault if the act, but rather corporate greed. He admitted that it was indeed corporate greed, but insisted it was still the fault of the act, even if nothing in it made the company raise premiums.
It's like they're allergic to logic.
 
2014-02-23 06:19:45 AM

Krymson Tyde: Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.

Any health insurance plan made "illegal" by the ACA was so abysmal it shouldn't have really counted as health insurance coverage in the first place.

The goggles, they do nothing.  The stupid, it burns.  Like 50+ married couples with a $5k deductible needed obstetric care with no deductible.  Hello?  McFly? Did anyone think that empty nest 50+ couples aren't going to have kids and can affod a $5k deductible?  That's right: "abysmal".  Faring retard.


Well, let me first thank you for your polite, well reasoned, and coherent response- it is both easy to comprehend, and you elected not to make personal attacks, for which I applaud you.

Unfortunately, as you so kindly pointed out, I am somewhat mentally deficient, so could you possibly provide some additional information about these magically wonderful health insurance plans that became "illegal" due to the ACA?

In an attempt to be clear (though I can only hope to be so cogent and understandable as yourself), let me state that I am specifically looking for evidence of insurance plans which the ACA made illegal, and I'd appreciate citiations of the plans in questions, as well as the relevant sections of the legislation which outlaws them.  This does not include plans that were discontinued by the insurer as not-financially viable, as- at least to my own addled mind - "cause to become not financially viable" is not the same thing as "made illegal"

Good luck.
I was debating a fellow the other day regarding health insurance. I tried to explain to him that am insurance company that used the ACA as an excuse to raise their rates was not the fault if the act, but rather corporate greed. He admitted that it was indeed corporate greed, but insisted it was still the fault of the act, even if nothing in it made the company raise premiums.
It's like they're allergic to logic.


Why did the company need ACA as an excuse to raise premiums? Presumably "corporate greed" would have caused them charged the most they could before ACA.

Something about ACA (ban on lifetime limits, expanded coverage, raising dependent age from 24 to 26, etc.) causes the hike in prices. These things aren't free. It's like ACA defenders are allergic to logic.
 
2014-02-23 07:24:30 AM
Mr. Bob Corker (R-eally hates unions): doubles down on his lie, despite VW's calling him out on it

It should be implied that, unless otherwise verified, that the default Southern position on labor unions is to kill them and impoverish any support.  Any conservative principles must go out the window.


Mr. Corker is one reason why this guy should have taken a few more passes at the South:
upload.wikimedia.org

Then again, 21st century weaponry could make up for it in a subsequent Civil War.
 
2014-02-23 07:34:06 AM
Yes, obviously, unions are now obsolete. Obviously. I mean, look at the way income was distributed 40 years ago, compared to today. Obviously, today's patriotic job creators need no help from a union ensuring their happy happy employees are paid a wage they can live on.

/obviously
 
2014-02-23 07:37:25 AM

HarleyMarlboro: That would be sweet, but Michigan Republicans rammed through Right to Work and joined the race to the bottom in December 2012. I'm sure that takes MI off the table.


More like "ALEC Republicans" and "rammed RTW through with insurance against an Ohio-style repeal".

That said, Ohio's lack of Right to Work law (and the general "it's not business friendly" lack of desire to pass it) would make their works council compatible with the Buckeye State.  Aside from Fuyao landing some surprise bid on GM's former Moraine plant, VW would have also had a factory that could handle their SUV line.

/one of those rare Republicans without the natural and not-conservative unionbusting reflex
//saying anything but no to one should not invite the four horses of the Apocalypse for your career
///want to live to see the day that the South's unionbusting spine is snapped for its diminishment of freedom.
 
2014-02-23 08:02:30 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Why did the company need ACA as an excuse to raise premiums? Presumably "corporate greed" would have caused them charged the most they could before ACA.


What causes you to believe they didn't raise premiums in years prior to the ACA?  Insurers raise premiums every year, it's just that this years letter explaining changes to costs and benifits had "As mandated by the Affordable Care Act) preceding whatever bullshiat they smeared on the page while they hiked up the rates again.

Something about ACA (ban on lifetime limits, expanded coverage, raising dependent age from 24 to 26, etc.) causes the hike in prices. These things aren't free. It's like ACA defenders are allergic to logic.

Something about the ACA, huh?  Got any citations directly linking requirements in the ACA to increases in premiums, or do you just know, deep down, that it's true?

Also, do you have anything to add regarding the initial claim that the ACA caused certain health coverage plans to become "illegal"?
 
2014-02-23 08:08:38 AM

IamTomJoad: It would be great to see the gymnastics Corker performs if VW decideds to put the new production in Mexico where the workers are unionized.


The problem is that the unions there are for the company's protection in not so good ways, much like the Japanese.
 
2014-02-23 09:52:16 AM
/Corker
//Now you farked up
///WHAT
 
2014-02-23 11:30:29 AM

LadySusan: Excellent! Let's hope the media manages to make it clear that VW itself is on board with the union.


And then we can hope for an infestation of unicorns which we can harvest for their beautiful bones and fix our debt crisis!

/good luck with that...
//Seriously though, I would hope that with you if I thought there were any chance of it happening.
 
2014-02-23 12:38:42 PM

tbeatty: Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.

Any health insurance plan made "illegal" by the ACA was so abysmal it shouldn't have really counted as health insurance coverage in the first place.

The goggles, they do nothing.  The stupid, it burns.  Like 50+ married couples with a $5k deductible needed obstetric care with no deductible.  Hello?  McFly? Did anyone think that empty nest 50+ couples aren't going to have kids and can affod a $5k deductible?  That's right: "abysmal".  Faring retard.


If they don't need the care then they are not contributing to that part if the risk pool.

This talking point assumes a failure to understand how insurance actually works and why these mandates are necessary. Even if insurance is mandated to cover pregnancy fir everybody, insurance likewise knows who is high risk for pregnancy costs and who isn't, so if they are charging for it it's because they are trying to fleece the consumer, not because if Obamacare.
 
2014-02-23 02:21:03 PM

Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.

Any health insurance plan made "illegal" by the ACA was so abysmal it shouldn't have really counted as health insurance coverage in the first place.

The goggles, they do nothing.  The stupid, it burns.  Like 50+ married couples with a $5k deductible needed obstetric care with no deductible.  Hello?  McFly? Did anyone think that empty nest 50+ couples aren't going to have kids and can affod a $5k deductible?  That's right: "abysmal".  Faring retard.


Well, let me first thank you for your polite, well reasoned, and coherent response- it is both easy to comprehend, and you elected not to make personal attacks, for which I applaud you.

Unfortunately, as you so kindly pointed out, I am somewhat mentally deficient, so could you possibly provide some additional information about these magically wonderful health insurance plans that became "illegal" due to the ACA?

In an attempt to be clear (though I can only hope to be so cogent and understandable as yourself), let me state that I am specifically looking for evidence of insurance plans which the ACA made illegal, and I'd appreciate citiations of the plans in questions, as well as the relevant sections of the legislation which outlaws them.  This does not include plans that were discontinued by the insurer as not-financially viable, as- at least to my own addled mind - "cause to become not financially viable" is not the same thing as "made illegal"


Sorry for the attack.  In Q4 when the notices were sent out terminatng high deductible empty nester plans.  They weren't abysmal in any sense of the words, rather they risk pooled categories of people to keep premiums low and cut out services they don't need.   here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/29/this-is-wh y -obamacare-is-cancelling-some-peoples-insurance-plans/   and the relevant quote: "Some -- or maybe even most -- of the plans offered on the individual insurance market right now don't meet certain requirements in the health-care law. They may not offer preventive care without co-payment, for example, or leave out coverage of maternity care, one of the health-care law's "10 essential benefits." .
 
2014-02-23 03:10:41 PM
tbeatty: Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: Jorn the Younger: tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.

Any health insurance plan made "illegal" by the ACA was so abysmal it shouldn't have really counted as health insurance coverage in the first place.

The goggles, they do nothing.  The stupid, it burns.  Like 50+ married couples with a $5k deductible needed obstetric care with no deductible.  Hello?  McFly? Did anyone think that empty nest 50+ couples aren't going to have kids and can affod a $5k deductible?  That's right: "abysmal".  Faring retard.


Well, let me first thank you for your polite, well reasoned, and coherent response- it is both easy to comprehend, and you elected not to make personal attacks, for which I applaud you.

Unfortunately, as you so kindly pointed out, I am somewhat mentally deficient, so could you possibly provide some additional information about these magically wonderful health insurance plans that became "illegal" due to the ACA?

In an attempt to be clear (though I can only hope to be so cogent and understandable as yourself), let me state that I am specifically looking for evidence of insurance plans which the ACA made illegal, and I'd appreciate citiations of the plans in questions, as well as the relevant sections of the legislation which outlaws them.  This does not include plans that were discontinued by the insurer as not-financially viable, as- at least to my own addled mind - "cause to become not financially viable" is not the same thing as "made illegal"


Sorry for the attack.  In Q4 when the notices were sent out terminatng high deductible empty nester plans.  They weren't abysmal in any sense of the words, rather they risk pooled categories of people to keep premiums low and cut out services t ...

I appreciate the apology, and the link, however it seems to indicate that the plans were cancelled at the discretion of the insurer.

The health law allowed plans that existed back in March 2010, when it became a law, to keep selling coverage. These are known as "grandfathered plans:" They don't meet the health law's requirements, but as long as they don't change much, insurers can keep offering them...These cancellations are, essentially, a lot of grandfathered plans exiting the insurance marketplace. From an insurance company's vantage point, grandfathered plans are a bit of a dead end: They can't enroll new subscribers and are really constrained in their ability to tweak the benefit package or cost-sharing structure. There's not a whole lot of business sense, for a managed care company, in maintaining a health plan that doesn't meet the health law's new requirements.

The insurer could have continued to sell these plans, they were specifically not illegal if they are grandfathered in, so I could see one taking the perspective that they were shunted out of existence, I wouldn't say they were made illegal as you had initially claimed.

That said, as I understand it, preventative care being covered with no co-pay saves money long term because prevention is cheaper than treatment, so it's probably a better value for the insurer to get those customers onto plans that include that.
 
2014-02-23 05:14:10 PM

Jorn the Younger: The health law allowed plans that existed back in March 2010, when it became a law, to keep selling coverage. These are known as "grandfathered plans:" They don't meet the health law's requirements, but as long as they don't change much, insurers can keep offering them...These cancellations are, essentially, a lot of grandfathered plans exiting the insurance marketplace. From an insurance company's vantage point, grandfathered plans are a bit of a dead end: They can't enroll new subscribers and are really constrained in their ability to tweak the benefit package or cost-sharing structure. There's not a whole lot of business sense, for a managed care company, in maintaining a health plan that doesn't meet the health law's new requirements.

The insurer could have continued to sell these plans, they were specifically not illegal if they are grandfathered in, so I could see one taking the perspective that they were shunted out of existence, I wouldn't say they were made illegal as you had initially claimed.

That said, as I understand it, preventative care being covered with no co-pay saves money long term because prevention is cheaper than treatment, so it's probably a better value for the insurer to get those customers onto plans that include that.


Companies often were grandfathered but the problem was the if any terms changed they became new policies.  As the article said, most were short term policies issued for a year or two and that would not have been grandfathered  I also think there was concern that even grandfathered policies may have been open to lawsuits to provide.

Secondly, preventive care with no co-pay having a benefit presumes that people not currently using PM will use it.  People already using preventive care will likely continue to do so, while those that don't aren't going to start.

The fact remains though, that there were specific policies made illegal by provisions of ACA.
 
2014-02-23 07:22:48 PM

The Bananadragon: IlGreven: The Bananadragon: Honestly, if I were VW, I'd start talking to Gov. Deal over in GA about this, as well as the Carolinas, VA, KY, AR, and even LA. Tell them you aren't appreciative of the anti-business atmosphere in TN and are looking for a new home for a rather impressive plant. (VW adds $12B to Tennessee's GDP, pays 1.4BN in annual taxes, injected almost another billion in plant-construction contracts and supplying dealerships with cars, and employs like 3000 people.) Make it clear that you're looking to move specifically because of the government meddling in the affairs of your worker/corporate relationship and you aren't gonna go anywhere if it happens again. GA would be especially lucrative because Dalton is only 30 minutes from Chattanooga, so you could basically keep your workforce intact - but offer your existing workers the chance to move, and pay for their relocation, because the workers shouldn't have to pay the price for this.

One thing I forgot to add: Georgia is just as bad as Tennessee on jobs, making decisions that destroy economies, like their refusal to expand Medicaid, leaving many patients unable to pay for care, and many hospitals either footing the bill for those patients or not having enough patients to justify their costs...so they're laying off doctors and nurses, or worse yet, shutting down altogether. And then, of course, their draconian immigration policy that is basically destroying a lot of farms who don't have enough labor to harvest their crops. And that's even before we talk about letting in a known union-friendly business into the state.

While true, they also just blew through a pretty massive weather crisis, and I bet they'd love to get some sweet taxy lucre their way. I agree that it probably isn't enough to accept those filthy unions, but GA and NC are the two bluest states in the south, and so are the best chances for VW to stay close to where they currently are. They'd just have to make it more than clear to GA's government that the entire reason they're leaving TN is because the government there is hostile to unions, and they are NOT gonna put up with that crap from wherever they move to, so either GA guarantees VW the right to run its business how it wants to, or they just don't even try moving there.

My other personal favorite place for them to move is of course back to motherfarking Detroit. More likely, though, they'd go to IA or PA or something.

Also, that thing about the SUV line. the TN plant has the infrastructure to build two types of car, and with a union on board in the plant, they'd almost certainly have done it (or at minimum, wouldn't have hesitated about the costs). Now they not only probably won't do it, the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.


Actually ga had no problem getting another German auto manufacturer, Porsche. Our politicians might indeed be crappy, but at least they have some business sense, unlike Coker.
 
2014-02-23 07:30:50 PM

tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.


Nope, try again.
 
2014-02-23 08:23:33 PM

machodonkeywrestler: Actually ga had no problem getting another German auto manufacturer, Porsche. Our politicians might indeed be crappy, but at least they have some business sense, unlike Coker.


Your economic development departments adverts in ATL lie - since it's business corruption, not business friendliness that powers GA.  That, and throw in a bit of theft, too.

What did your state do with $60 million (and almost $5 million in stimulus funding), a then-125 year old cash register company, and a big effort to keep it quiet from the city until it was done in 2009?  I'd think that such behavior with that example(amongst others) suggests that the state prefers underhanded acquisition over innovation.


The Bananadragon: While true, they also just blew through a pretty massive weather crisis, and I bet they'd love to get some sweet taxy lucre their way. I agree that it probably isn't enough to accept those filthy unions, but GA and NC are the two bluest states in the south, and so are the best chances for VW to stay close to where they currently are. They'd just have to make it more than clear to GA's government that the entire reason they're leaving TN is because the government there is hostile to unions, and they are NOT gonna put up with that crap from wherever they move to, so either GA guarantees VW the right to run its business how it wants to, or they just don't even try moving there.

My other personal favorite place for them to move is of course back to motherfarking Detroit. More likely, though, they'd go to IA or PA or something.


As I said above, how about somewhere with a sane political environment, sans RTW?  So far, that would put Ohio up top for states in that region for its long history of maintaining relative neutrality.  Giving it to Michigan or Indiana at this point would be little different, and Volkswagen's already tried Pennsylvania.  Iowa would just be a crapshoot.


Also, that thing about the SUV line. the TN plant has the infrastructure to build two types of car, and with a union on board in the plant, they'd almost certainly have done it (or at minimum, wouldn't have hesitated about the costs). Now they not only probably won't do it, the South has just shot its chances of joining the 20th century in the foot here by scaring away future manufacturing jobs.

There are some parts of the South that will not change as much as the North won't.
 
2014-02-23 09:13:20 PM

machodonkeywrestler: tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.

Nope, try again.


Yup.  Read the source above.  Try again.
 
2014-02-23 11:17:47 PM

tbeatty: Jorn the Younger: The health law allowed plans that existed back in March 2010, when it became a law, to keep selling coverage. These are known as "grandfathered plans:" They don't meet the health law's requirements, but as long as they don't change much, insurers can keep offering them...These cancellations are, essentially, a lot of grandfathered plans exiting the insurance marketplace. From an insurance company's vantage point, grandfathered plans are a bit of a dead end: They can't enroll new subscribers and are really constrained in their ability to tweak the benefit package or cost-sharing structure. There's not a whole lot of business sense, for a managed care company, in maintaining a health plan that doesn't meet the health law's new requirements.

The insurer could have continued to sell these plans, they were specifically not illegal if they are grandfathered in, so I could see one taking the perspective that they were shunted out of existence, I wouldn't say they were made illegal as you had initially claimed.

That said, as I understand it, preventative care being covered with no co-pay saves money long term because prevention is cheaper than treatment, so it's probably a better value for the insurer to get those customers onto plans that include that.

Companies often were grandfathered but the problem was the if any terms changed they became new policies.  As the article said, most were short term policies issued for a year or two and that would not have been grandfathered  I also think there was concern that even grandfathered policies may have been open to lawsuits to provide.

Secondly, preventive care with no co-pay having a benefit presumes that people not currently using PM will use it.  People already using preventive care will likely continue to do so, while those that don't aren't going to start.

The fact remains though, that there were specific policies made illegal by provisions of ACA.


Unfortunately, no, you still haven't supported your assertion that the ACA made these plans illegal - indeed, your own citiation states how they specifically were NOT made illegal.

Also, plenty of people, myself included, were not taking advantage of prevenative care previously, because it wasn't covered by my insurance plan.  Now it is, and I am- I did start.  I know I'm only an anecdote, but I find it amusing that you state I don't exist.
 
2014-02-23 11:20:54 PM

tbeatty: machodonkeywrestler: tbeatty: qorkfiend: tbeatty: They "clearly spoke" that they wanted to keep their doctor and their plan.

Maybe they should "clearly speak" to the health insurance companies that cancelled their plans or altered their networks.

Plans were cancelled because ACA made the illegal to continue.

Nope, try again.

Yup.  Read the source above.  Try again.


I really don't think that article says what you seem to think it says.  I quoted some of it for you above, where they mention how the plans were specifically allowed to continue in spite of their not meeting ACA requirements, and that the insurer decided to no longer continue offerring them of their own volition, as they no longer considered it a viable option for them, but not because they faced any legal repurcussion if they failed to do so.

Unless you're using a different definition of "illegal" than the rest of us- but in that case I think you owe it to us all to share your private definition, so we can at least have the correct lense of reference through which to consider your perspective
 
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