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(Telegraph)   The "deal" reached in Ukraine was helped along by a negotiating tactic more familiar to mob bosses than diplomats as Polish foreign minister is caught on tape telling opposition leaders "sign this deal or you will all die"   ( telegraph.co.uk) divider line
    More: Scary, Leader of the Opposition, Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Radek Sikorski, snap elections, paramilitary, signing ceremony  
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8250 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Feb 2014 at 2:00 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2014-02-21 12:18:11 PM  
8 votes:

snocone: More surprises.
Oh, be still, my heart.


To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders
2014-02-21 02:48:04 PM  
3 votes:
Behind every vote, every desk in every bureaucracy, every bank note and wealthy man's gates are a bunch of people who, by laws of their own making, are allowed to shoot you if you don't play along with the interests of the people who have most of the desks, bank notes, vest pocketed bureaucrats and properties that need gates.

The rule of law has always been nothing more than codified constructs wherein, depending on how many people you can get to yell "BULLSH*T!" at once, you're fair game.  Criminal law, in it's truest sense, is a different box of cookies but has been subverted to the point where they aim the guns at the wrong people half the time, anyhow.

I am grateful for the greed mongers stripping the paint off the wall, the erosion of any pretense to leadership that political power has been exposed to by its own actions, and the internet.

Because the last one made the first two very obvious.  Now all we have to do is figure out how far we'll go to act on this information and divest ourselves of a now useless, archaic and violent system of governance and commerce that has nothing resembling a useful cost / benefits analysis in the post modern world.
2014-02-21 02:30:24 PM  
3 votes:

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke
2014-02-21 02:15:53 PM  
3 votes:
Men of the Cloth standing between armed riot police and the People ..

www.themalaymailonline.com

.. let's see you go do that ..
2014-02-21 02:10:05 PM  
3 votes:

Magorn: To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.


Yea, from what I read it was actually a warning that Yanukovich was definitely going to implement martial law and probably planning on killing them if they didn't sign and bring the situation under control.

What's more concerning is that there are several quotes from powerful people on Yanukovich's side which basically say that there won't be any peace until the country splits in two.
2014-02-21 02:04:02 PM  
3 votes:
I'm not sure that was a threat or just a lucid telling of truth.
2014-02-21 10:39:19 PM  
2 votes:
I may be wrong, but I'm reading a lot of the objection to bunner's statements as taking issue with the lack of specifics, except the grand terms used to describe the abuses they perceive. Many of which I will even admit are valid in part or in whole. There is no mechanism of government described to curtail these abuses, not even in a narrowly defined hypothetical situation. It causes what could otherwise be an engaging offer to discuss the tendency of social structures to degenerate in oligarchy to have the appearance of anarchistic platitudes one would find being spouted in any university campus' coffee shop by your stereotypical college radical in a mass produced che t-shirt slurping cappucino from an agri-corp operation.

Simply put, how do you reverse the flow of power so that instead of aggregating it diffuses? How do you enfranchise the total population and create a universal sense of agency when it has been proven a certain segment of the population function on instincts similar to or indistinguishable from those of herd animals? If you can't enfranchise the populace universally, how do you keep highly motivated individuals with a bent towards acquiring power from manipulating the situation to their benefit?

Because democracy in it's various adulterated forms does a better job of addressing these concerns than other existing power structures thanks to the presumption of a popular will it is generally held as the golden standard, but true democracy does not exist as bunner and others so rightly pointed out, and for the reasons I believe I have expressed. How do you address them?
2014-02-21 09:24:59 PM  
2 votes:
We pretty much handed over our economy, which is pretty directly linked to the results/products of the work of our own hands at our jobs. What happened to it? WE ended up getting blamed for the crash by the people whose greed caused it.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories. NO ONE should for two reasons and two reasons alone:ONE: they give an illusion of understanding that can lead to textbook cases of clinical insanity, while a real understanding of the real situation goes begging for attention.

And TWO: The person {or organization} telling people these theories always has something to peddle for an inflated price. The customer ends up paying double -- not only in money but in actual emotional damage that can end up blunting the intellect.

The Ukranians don't have the overwhelmingly brain-gripping kind of media we have, and maybe that's one point in their favour.

What happened to the Ukranian economy, though? Another Farker mentioned above that the Ukraine had become something like a gigantic company town with pretty much worthless scrip.
2014-02-21 08:29:49 PM  
2 votes:

midigod: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke


Even more to the point of the joke, it applies no MATTER WHAT PARTICULAR VERSION YOU ARE USING AS VERSION 1.0 :D

If you're talking the Constitution of 1787 (which was actually Constitution 2.0), the Bill of Rights was actually passed as a bugfix of sorts in the 1790s after it was brought up that Assuming Was A Bad Thing.  (There is actually a decent argument--based in part on Constitution 1.0, which we'll discuss in a minute--that there was still entirely too much assuming going on, particularly regarding the role of the states in maintaining the "militia" mentioned in the Second Amendment, but we'll get to that shortly.)

As for Constitution 1.0...not a lot of folks remember that one, as that wasn't called a "Constitution" and more of an "Articles of Confederation".  I also expect a lot of people who consider the Second Amendment an excuse to masturbate furiously with an American flag stroking a rather large weapon as a penile surrogate would not be terribly happy with the Articles of Confederation for a number of reasons:

a) Aforementioned "Articles" explicitly set up the US pretty much EXACTLY in the way the EU is set up now, with the sole exceptions being that there was LESS of a functional parliamentary government (and this was pretty much explicitly by design, and it went right to shiat in less than ten years) and--unlike the EU--there was a NATO-esque "American Army" of sorts set up.  There were also no laws on the states passing laws mandating that citizenship was restricted to a particular flavour of Christianity (there were some states that--I shiat you not--you could not legally vote in unless you were the RIGHT flavour of Baptist or Methodist or Episcopalian).

Yeah, you could have guns.  Were mandated to, in fact.  Unfortunately for Second Amendment fans, there were actually more restrictions (like, oh, the whole reason you were allowed to have guns is because you were legally considered to be part of the army of your state in case the NDNs or French or British decided to get pissy and you HAD to be in prime "fighting fit" condition ALL THE TIME and were required to take two weeks out of every six months to train at your state guard recruitment center on pain of imprisonment).

Yes, you're reading this right: the laws in Constitution 1.0 (and in conjunction with the early Militia Acts, technically with 2.0 as well) pretty much stated outright the whole reason you had guns was to do Canton Guards just like in Switzerland (apparently there were Notes Taken from the Hessians) and you could legally be denied the right to own a gun if you were too gimped/too crazy/too derpy/too blind to shoot straight because pretty much every guy who could be trusted to not perform a Bobbit-operation-via-musket was considered de facto drafted from the time he could vote to the time he could no longer be trusted to not shoot himself in the hrbls.  (Somehow I don't think the whole "YOU WILL FARKING GO TO BOOT CAMP OR WE WILL HAVE YOU THROWN IN THE LOCAL TARDFARM OR IN PRISON" would go so well with the usual "BUT FREEDUM!" narrative some have.)

Oh, and the right to own a weapon (or to vote, or to do a lot of things--often up to and including "use tools and live indoors and generally be considered a fellow human") essentially didn't exist if you weren't a white male Anglo-Saxon of the right flavour of Protestantism for your state.  Just sayin'.  (These, too, have been bug-fixed by various things we call "acts of Congress" and "Amendments to the Constitution"--a process that is actually quite a bit easier under Constitution 2.0 versus 1.0, as 2.0 actually included an explicit revision process that didn't require a complete rewrite.  A lot of folks are still rather butthurt about the emergency zero-day patches put in around 1867 or so--the largest since the 1791 emergency bugfix we call the "BIll of Rights rollout"--but they've helped the Constitutional code remain remarkably stable.  We've actually done pretty good with the bugfixes, in that we've only had to pull one so far (where a proposed "feature inclusion" tended to severely wreck the performance of the body politic).  Realistically only one "include group of people as US citizens" bugfix seems to have been done without a Constitutional bugfix of some sort, and that was the series of "Let's actually consider the potential originators of some of the source code for our Constitution who've lived here for 18,000 years plus actually be in the 'citizens' userclass rather than the 'effectively stateless persons' subclass" that passed in the 20s through late 40s.)
2014-02-21 06:58:37 PM  
2 votes:
A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f
2014-02-21 06:23:41 PM  
2 votes:

dywed88: Care to provide an alternative?


Empiricism.

Education.

Actual free trade, not just the sort that benefits the wealthy.

Global legal constructs deigned to server humanity,not feudal lords.  We're all moved in, now.  Saber rattling and economic pissing matches are like watching your fat assed uncle Bert shout 9 beer malarkey and put a lampshade on at Christmas.  It's beyond a parody.  I'll give a sh*t about the technological great leap forward when it stops being a toolkit for dime store, 17th c. world leader pretends with a new box of hammers to hit people with.  Protection?  Who protects the homeless people shot by cops cause "hey, he pissed me off"?  Who protects the people trying to earn a living in a culture that demands feudal fealty to corporate whorehouses whose only mission is finding new gravy to work around the vomit they're spewing in their gluttony?  Who protects us from an oligarchy that can circumvent any legality with the wave of a quarterly report?  Functionality isn't measured by what you settle for.
2014-02-21 04:55:02 PM  
2 votes:
sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.
2014-02-21 03:23:19 PM  
2 votes:
I'd bet money on "civil war" at this point, and that it will be a multi-year conflict.

I hope there isnt a civil war, but at this sums up my thoughts at this point in time  25.media.tumblr.com
2014-02-21 03:10:23 PM  
2 votes:
Unfortunately, this ain't over by a long shot.  I'm torn - Yanukovych needs to face justice for his actions but you also need to start somewhere.  Maidan protesters are not accepting the deal struck today and are threatening further actions tomorrow basically making any peaceful end to this impossible.  I'm watching the stream now and they're bringing those that died to the Maidan to pay respects.  The speeches have been taking a much nastier tone over the last 24 hours as well (expected).  There's also a good chance they will lose any international support if they were to go on the offensive now but I doubt they give 2 shiats about that.  I just don't know.

Here is a write up from a acquaintance of mine in Kyiv:

Mychailo Wynnyckyj
Extremely tense and emotional events unfolding on Maidan tonight. According to the announced plan for tonight, a funeral service for the men who lost their lives yesterday in battles against the regime was supposed to be held. The three opposition party leaders (Yatseniuk, Klitschko, Tiahnybok), Poroshenko and other politicians were invited onto the stage together with priests. The crowd (40-50 thousand people) whistled at them, and demanded explanations regarding today's "deal" with Yanukovych. Most people in the crowd are, to put it mildly, not happy that an agreement was signed with the person they see as responsible for 77 dead and several hundred injured civilians. The funeral service was interrupted when one of the coffins was brought directly to the front of the stage during Klitschko's speech, and the crowd began shouting "who will answer for this?!". Then a "Sotnia" (unit) commander who had personally fought with riot police during the past days, forced his way onto the stage. His short emotional speech, during which he stressed that his unit was very well armed, ended with an ultimatum to the opposition leaders: either force the President's resignation by 10 am tomorrow, and renounce your deal with Yanukovych (according to which an election is scheduled for 10 months from now), or this commander's Sotnia will advance ("storm") the government quarter. Dmytro Yarosh from the Right Sector then came onto the stage and proclaimed essentially the same thing. It should be noted that this morning, over 1000 Interior Ministry troops were withdrawn from the government quarter, and this afternoon those troops who were from southern Ukraine were transported home. However, significant numbers of well armed government troops remain inside the Presidential Administration and Cabinet of Ministers buildings. It is now clear that the opposition's "negotiations" are not acceptable to Maidan, and the political leaders are NOT in control. Heaven help us, but I feel we're in for more bloodshed - soon.
2014-02-21 02:40:22 PM  
2 votes:

midigod: There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke


Plus of course women aren't allowed to vote and blacks are considered property.
2014-02-21 02:19:19 PM  
2 votes:
The Polish foreign minister wasn't threatening the opposition, submitter, he was warning them what to expect next. There is a world of difference between threatening to hit someone with your car and warning them to get out of traffic.
2014-02-21 02:10:34 PM  
2 votes:

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0


you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.
2014-02-21 01:47:04 PM  
2 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.


Our Ukrainian Farker had said in a recent thread that most opposition leaders wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko since she really WAS  a crook (and issued a no compromise ..EVER manifesto from prison that did nothing to clam the violence yesterday)   so why DID they vote to free her today?
2014-02-21 12:41:31 PM  
2 votes:

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: Magorn: snocone: More surprises.
Oh, be still, my heart.

To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders

Martial law would pretty much guarantee civil war


Something that Poland, who shares a border with Ukraine, would have a deeply vested interest in avoiding.  While I doubt there is ANY love lost between Russia and Poland, Poland also knows a Ukraine in turmoil is very bad news for them
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-21 12:23:25 PM  
2 votes:

Magorn: To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders


They knew that was a possibility going in.

Besides, Ceausescu tried that and he ended up between a wall and a firing squad.
2014-02-22 10:07:08 AM  
1 vote:

atomicmask: Clemkadidlefark: Men of the Cloth standing between armed riot police and the People ..

[www.themalaymailonline.com image 600x430]

.. let's see you go do that ..

And this is the difference between christianity, and islam.

A priest will stand in front of certain doom and call for peace.

A Imam will sit in a mosque and call for war.


Yea, those evil Mooselimbs.
2014-02-22 09:00:08 AM  
1 vote:
2014-02-22 07:38:55 AM  
1 vote:
Last column in dollars:

fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net


Documents showing "black" accounts. Payments to traffic police. Hundreds of thousands of dollars received from "investors".
Purchases of sniper rifles. Special "employees". Big payments, small payments. Going about a decade back.

farm8.staticflickr.com

Folders they tried to burn. Info on "dangerous" people. Journalists, MP's, civil activists.
2014-02-22 06:21:15 AM  
1 vote:
List of bribed cops, or people to bribe:

pbs.twimg.com


Fotos of journalist Tanya Chornovol and (I think) instructions on how to "handle" her (Google it, she was beaten up very bad a few times):
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=744191065593018


@olgatokariuk: first pics arriving from what was before today #Yanukovich luxury residence in Mezhygirya
pbs.twimg.com
pbs.twimg.com
things going fast now, also in parliament
2014-02-22 05:38:57 AM  
1 vote:

supageil: If the Ukrainian president really is in Kharkiv attempting to break the east off into a separate, Russia-backed country, he should be hanged for treason.


He'll be lynched, shot, or (worst case?), stand trial in the Hague. He's done more than that wrong.


On a lighter note: MEN vs. Berkut - "Fight!" (I promise, it's on topic but funny).
2014-02-22 04:58:23 AM  
1 vote:
Ustym Golodnyuk, a 19-year-old Democratic Alliance volunteer, was shot dead by a sniper early on Feb. 20.

Medics took his body from the street to the main floor of Ukraina Hotel, which had been turned into a makeshift medical center, where his father later identified him.

"I do not know whether (President Viktor) Yanukovych has to stand in front of me on his knees, but I know exactly that he has to be brought in front of the international tribunal for what he did to my country and to my son," Democratic Alliance reported Golodnyuk's father as saying.


They won't forget, they will NEVER forget, they have very long memories, and someone will pursue Yanujerkoff to the ends of the earth.

also, espreso live is operational again in YouTube
2014-02-22 04:12:04 AM  
1 vote:
Well, according to BBC coverage, it looks like nobody has much idea where the Ukrainian head of state is. No more riot police either. People are wandering around "empty" government buildings. That must be surreal.
2014-02-22 04:08:14 AM  
1 vote:
I'm calling it a night here on Fark but leaving the live feed open, g'nights all.

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
2014-02-22 04:02:04 AM  
1 vote:
Uh-oh, there went the Espreso TV link on YouTube. Technical problems, allegedly.

Switching to Громадське ONLINE.
2014-02-22 02:55:39 AM  
1 vote:
These two priests are singing up there on the stage. I...guess they're blessing the crowd as well.

It sounds oddly melancholy only because I don't understand the language.
2014-02-22 02:42:30 AM  
1 vote:
whoa, a big ol cheer just went up a moment ago. I'm looking at the Espreso feed.
2014-02-22 02:36:21 AM  
1 vote:
Naatje: Compilation of Lenin statues coming down across Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBTG7PBcDw


Wow, that is just as surreal as it can be.
2014-02-22 12:31:24 AM  
1 vote:
Ohhhh one thing you do NOT do is create martyrs, Yanu you farking dimwit.

Nice going.

In about a century, those people you had shot by your little sniper wusses are gonna be elevated to sainthood.
2014-02-22 12:05:27 AM  
1 vote:
Berkut or cops. Hard to tell at the moment.
2014-02-22 12:04:25 AM  
1 vote:
*headscratch*

*burble*

....and back on Espreso TV - LIVE, someone was making a speech. I think it might be "Angry Guy". The voice is similar at least.

Ahh, they're doing some looking back.

There's the Berkut helmet&shield-stacking scene....
2014-02-21 11:55:31 PM  
1 vote:
cutearoo.com
2014-02-21 11:18:12 PM  
1 vote:
Damn. I've gotten caught up in yet another mental trap by sniffing a single word.
2014-02-21 11:16:42 PM  
1 vote:
*sniffs the apparent buzzword "hooliganism" with extreme care*
2014-02-21 11:00:38 PM  
1 vote:

Krustofsky: Is Yanukovich getting the hell out of Dodge?  Is anyone waiting for him in Dubai? Putin?


Rumors are it's Fujairah Airport in UAE now. Wherever he lands (*if* he was on one of those airplanes), he has enough Ukrainian money in his pockets. That's why the Ukrainian's have none in theirs.
2014-02-21 10:42:12 PM  
1 vote:

SR_NightBane: I may be wrong, but I'm reading a lot of the objection to bunner's statements as taking issue with the lack of specifics, except the grand terms used to describe the abuses they perceive.



Anybody wishing to call me for not being able to see the trees for the forest will get no argument.  Since we're up to our gazoinkies in tree experts, I'm sort of fine with it.
2014-02-21 09:58:12 PM  
1 vote:
danzak
Great Porn Dragon:
AOJ92C must have been denied landing rights in Dubai, as they are now out of the holding pattern and flying east of Dubai, looks like a landing may be attempted in Fujairah (a rather more obscure part of the UAE) or possibly somewhere in Oman (somewhere in Muscat, specifically).

The other plane (the Emirates Air flight) is still circling in the same holding pattern it's been for the past 15 minutes or so.


Almost down in Dubai now.
2014-02-21 09:57:48 PM  
1 vote:
Oh my gosh.
2014-02-21 09:46:12 PM  
1 vote:
LewDux
Unlike in all other political systems, there things stay the same for centuries

Strength is not a "system".


bunner
I am not responsible for your reading comprehension being limited to that which you already believe or the narrow scope it resides in.

I think what he wants is for you need to stick to single-word answers that he can easily dismiss with shallow strawmen. For example I could say Anarchism, and I could probably think of the first two or three things I'm sure he'd say about that.


Kittypie070

This is what happens inside my head when you post

s9.postimg.org
2014-02-21 09:23:54 PM  
1 vote:
I've been thinking about this all day, and I've concluded that I feel for the people that are continuing to protest.

I know I'm supposed to assume the people still pushing for change are Nazis or whatever, but I had to put myself in their shoes.

If our President was responsible for the presence of snipers on the roof of buildings in DC, shooting unarmed protesters, until 50+ were dead...I'd have a hard time waiting up to ten months to get rid of him. Wouldn't you?

The peace agreement should have included the immediate resignation of the current Ukrainian President and a bar onhim holding office in Ukraine again, in return for protection out of the country. It also should have included guaranteed international election oversight, and a blocking of Russian influence. After what Russia did to fan these flames, they damn well don't deserve a say in what happens now.

How would you like a country practically invading and corrupting yours to the point where you risked your life to protest, and then have that same country demand a say in the compromise you fought for? fark that.

I understand the Russian bullshiat situation that makes abrupt change in that part of the world a risk. But isn't that even MORE of an incentive to deal with this situation right now? If Putin's already on the phone with Obama, telling Obama that he wants to have a "say" in the peace process...after everything Putin did to fark up Ukraine...wouldn't it be good to handle things as quickly as possible, and shut Putin out as much as we can help the Ukrainians do? Giving Putin up to 10 months to use the current Ukrainian administration as puppets, especially now that Russia really sees what's on the line, seems very foolish indeed.

So yes, I feel for the Ukrainians continuing to protest. Tey surely know they're risking losing international support, and they're going ahead anyway. That's brave.
2014-02-21 09:18:30 PM  
1 vote:
AOJ92C must have been denied landing rights in Dubai, as they are now out of the holding pattern and flying east of Dubai, looks like a landing may be attempted in Fujairah (a rather more obscure part of the UAE) or possibly somewhere in Oman (somewhere in Muscat, specifically).

The other plane (the Emirates Air flight) is still circling in the same holding pattern it's been for the past 15 minutes or so.
2014-02-21 09:08:17 PM  
1 vote:
Well, I usually pay attention. Sometimes I'm just in here for laughs.

But...I dunno but I must have a Gene Kranz streak somewhere because it's "the success of the mission and the safety of the ENTIRE crew", so to speak, that is important.

The mission being the reason this nation was founded, the crew being the entire complement of people living here.

Or for that matter, let's say, the safety and well being of the Ukranian people, and the reason for the existence of their nation.

They have a right, they have a really legitimate set of grievances against the government they FORMERLY consented to.

It's not like they're rebelling against their government because of some utter bullcrap reason like "Keap soshulizm out of ARE Medikare sckooters, Marx0bama is a TRYANT, NO AMNETSY, Whar Birf Certificit?? and we are in a POLICE STATE because postal regulations waah overseas mailing of PERFUME!".

Yeah, I am sorry for the crappy cheap shot. I just couldn't pass it up.
2014-02-21 08:55:54 PM  
1 vote:
Every voting cycle, they get a review and are either patted on the head or kicked to the curb.

Consent of the governed means other things besides consent. It means be watchful.

It means the governed should not let officials run on auto-pilot.
2014-02-21 08:54:14 PM  
1 vote:

Kittypie070: bunner DID give suggestions some other place. I was the one ranting that day, and bunner gave me a soft tap on the nose for it instead of a boot in the @$$ for my insolence.

site:fark.com in Google might be a good start if you want to expend actual effort instead of sitting there yelling at bunner.

Quit trying to bite the pointing finger.


Kitty?   You want to know why you usually contribute way more than any other user here?  You   WANT   to learn things and you pay attention and you don't have any agendas.  Around here. that's gold pressed latinum.
2014-02-21 08:45:33 PM  
1 vote:
In a perfect democracy, government is empowered at the behest of and with the consent of the governed.

None of this gymnastic, blowahardery, profit über alles, tap dancing and "harrumph" bullsh*t.

You elect officials who, as a matter of governance, are capable or managing, administering, and regulating matters of defense, commerce, general welfare and progress and laws.  Every voting cycle, they get a review and are either patted on the head or kicked to the curb.

So actual, pure form democracy doesn't exist.  Narrowing one's view to the slit in the fence where the only visible object is the tattered label on a now empty can doesn't make a democracy.  And it doesn't protect any of its constituency.  And it doesn't keep the simple bedrock ideal of effective governance I outlined from getting dropped off behind the dumpster, sad and bruised and with a 5.00 bill stuffed in its shirt.  Picking one of three options from three bins of stale, mushy fruit doesn't mean you're eating what's on the picture on the basket.
2014-02-21 08:40:24 PM  
1 vote:
No, I'm OK.
2014-02-21 08:38:46 PM  
1 vote:
Hold on, did I just poast in the wrong thread?

dammitall.

sorry.
2014-02-21 08:33:31 PM  
1 vote:
bunner DID give suggestions some other place. I was the one ranting that day, and bunner gave me a soft tap on the nose for it instead of a boot in the @$$ for my insolence.

site:fark.com in Google might be a good start if you want to expend actual effort instead of sitting there yelling at bunner.

Quit trying to bite the pointing finger.
2014-02-21 07:09:49 PM  
1 vote:
what brave statesmen they are.
2014-02-21 07:05:19 PM  
1 vote:
I hear rumours through the grapevine that there were something like 60+ other VIP flights out of the Ukraine as well.
2014-02-21 06:55:52 PM  
1 vote:

traylor: Russian TV

[pbs.twimg.com image 750x600]


Are they shiatting us?
2014-02-21 06:51:02 PM  
1 vote:

traylor: Berkut in Dnipropetrowsk hand over the outfit to protesters

[pbs.twimg.com image 720x960]

FYI, location of Dnipropetrowsk:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x166]

Lenin monuments went down in Dnipropetrowsk, Poltava, Pryluky, Slavuta, Bila Tserkva...


Oh that one pic has made it worthwhile today.

:)
2014-02-21 06:49:47 PM  
1 vote:
Paramedics from Hungary.

pbs.twimg.com
2014-02-21 06:47:52 PM  
1 vote:

zimbomba63: Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.
DURP

Say what?


I admitted I was incorrect, all right?
2014-02-21 06:43:05 PM  
1 vote:
She's getting better.

pbs.twimg.com
2014-02-21 06:33:39 PM  
1 vote:
It's this simple.  Until we value the guy who can teach you good and useful things over the guy who can "kick your f*ckin' ass, dude!", we're gonna sit here eating crumbs and ducking around a corner of a side street when the hubris besotted mongoloids we DO value come down the street.  Reason over rhetoric, science over violence, full bellies over gold.  Not until.  And the rest is a piss up a rope.
2014-02-21 06:28:38 PM  
1 vote:
dywed88
Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.
A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.


That's nothing but magical thinking. Power comes from strength. Even if you have your precious "functional democracy", your political decisions will be ignored if you have no strength- whether military, economic, ideological, or some other form. With "democracy" but no popular strength, the result is what we see today in the United States- a slow descent into a sort of quasi-capitalist neo-feudalism.
2014-02-21 05:59:58 PM  
1 vote:

dywed88: Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.


Much like with a government.

dywed88: A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.


Call me when we have one.

dywed88: It certainly isn't guaranteed that any government will protect your rights, but it is far better than any other option.


That's called whistling pat the graveyard.

I get the paraphrase but if change is the essence of civilization, and if you look back to post Roman monasteries where the candle of knowledge flickered and sputtered for 600 years, stasis is a piss poor alternative to risk.  And until the 1% put the capital back into play here, instead of moving shop to Asia so they can get - isn't this precious - more capital, cheaper, all this dusty book, How things work" malarkey is last weeks papers, exists in a vacuum of dated, no longer applied constructs and a piss up a rope.  In other words, if you get off the bus at the brick wall in the road and say "this is where the road ends", it does.  Progress has reached a bottleneck and it's been installed by the very people who insist that all the sh*t we've been using and/or chained to since Bologna opened a global marketplace - still works fine.  We've learned what doesn't work.  And it's time to come back from the monkey bars and start using what we've learned about what does.
2014-02-21 05:58:59 PM  
1 vote:
Berkut in Dnipropetrowsk hand over the outfit to protesters

pbs.twimg.com

FYI, location of Dnipropetrowsk:

upload.wikimedia.org

Lenin monuments went down in Dnipropetrowsk, Poltava, Pryluky, Slavuta, Bila Tserkva...
2014-02-21 05:38:49 PM  
1 vote:

LewDux: Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.


Why?


History.
2014-02-21 05:22:10 PM  
1 vote:
:(
2014-02-21 05:10:55 PM  
1 vote:
guess i was prescient in getting those screenshots

:(
2014-02-21 05:04:09 PM  
1 vote:

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.

Uh.  Enumerated just means "listed."

Now, the ninth says that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

But then why have the list?  Why not just say "Government may not deny or disparage any rights retained by the people?"

Because people are assholes, and need to be told what their rights are.


The meaning of enumerate has nothing to do with where and why you are wrong.

Your position: The consitution enumerates your rights
The truth: The constitution details the limits on government with regards to your rights.

It's grade school civics mate.
2014-02-21 04:56:07 PM  
1 vote:
shiatty reporting.  They are obviously trying to shock people into reading the article by portraying the man as a mob boss, but he's simply making a statement about the outcome of martial law.
2014-02-21 04:26:40 PM  
1 vote:

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


No, goofus, he means the Constitution without those pesky amendments, especially the 13th and 14th. The one that said "non-free" persons counted as 3/5 for allocating Congressional representation. Y'know, Ron Paul's Constitution.
2014-02-21 04:25:32 PM  
1 vote:

vpb: Magorn: To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders

They knew that was a possibility going in.

Besides, Ceausescu tried that and he ended up between a wall and a firing squad.


"Securitatea" or secret police did listen to Ceausescu for a few days (revolution started in Timisoara around 16-17 and only spread to Bucharest on 21st and 22nd). Even in Bucharest when the protesters went to the TV station (3 miles away from where I lived) and the Presidential palace, there was a firefight during that night and a little the next day. Unless you want to believe the conspiracy theory that nobody from Ceausescu's side fired guns and that it was all gunshot sounds broadcasted over megaphones and the protestors just shot themselves. (Yes, some Romanians believe that).
2014-02-21 04:24:59 PM  
1 vote:

Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.


Especially since this afternoon 8 people were convicted in Russia for protesting outside Putin's third inauguration in May 2012 and can face up to 10yrs in prison.

Sentencing is being delayed until Monday. The Olympics close on Sunday.

200 people protesting outside the court have been arrested.

:-(
2014-02-21 04:02:01 PM  
1 vote:
The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.
2014-02-21 03:59:27 PM  
1 vote:

danzak: Unfortunately, this ain't over by a long shot.  I'm torn - Yanukovych needs to face justice for his actions but you also need to start somewhere.  Maidan protesters are not accepting the deal struck today and are threatening further actions tomorrow basically making any peaceful end to this impossible.  I'm watching the stream now and they're bringing those that died to the Maidan to pay respects.  The speeches have been taking a much nastier tone over the last 24 hours as well (expected).  There's also a good chance they will lose any international support if they were to go on the offensive now but I doubt they give 2 shiats about that.  I just don't know.

Here is a write up from a acquaintance of mine in Kyiv:

Mychailo Wynnyckyj
Extremely tense and emotional events unfolding on Maidan tonight. According to the announced plan for tonight, a funeral service for the men who lost their lives yesterday in battles against the regime was supposed to be held. The three opposition party leaders (Yatseniuk, Klitschko, Tiahnybok), Poroshenko and other politicians were invited onto the stage together with priests. The crowd (40-50 thousand people) whistled at them, and demanded explanations regarding today's "deal" with Yanukovych. Most people in the crowd are, to put it mildly, not happy that an agreement was signed with the person they see as responsible for 77 dead and several hundred injured civilians. The funeral service was interrupted when one of the coffins was brought directly to the front of the stage during Klitschko's speech, and the crowd began shouting "who will answer for this?!". Then a "Sotnia" (unit) commander who had personally fought with riot police during the past days, forced his way onto the stage. His short emotional speech, during which he stressed that his unit was very well armed, ended with an ultimatum to the opposition leaders: either force the President's resignation by 10 am tomorrow, and renounce your deal with Yanukovych (according to whi ...


Thank you.  It sounds like the oppo leaders really might be ousted.  They'll need to be careful: the protestors are wanting significantly more results than they've received so far.  I can't say I blame them.  Yanukovych remaining in power has to be an utter defeat.
2014-02-21 03:49:59 PM  
1 vote:
Subby sounds like an adolescent, biologically unable to distinguish between a predictive warning of probable consequences and a "mean threat."
2014-02-21 03:40:31 PM  
1 vote:

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Sun Tzu says "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
2014-02-21 03:16:11 PM  
1 vote:

KellyX: Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?

Why not just firebomb the parliament building and blame it on Poland?


Or sink a Ukrainian navy ship and blame it on Spain.
2014-02-21 03:09:45 PM  
1 vote:

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Because every government at least CLAIMS the consent of the governed as the basis for its legitimacy. And every government to have ANY authority has to be able to at least "keep the peace".
  The mass protest is a visible way  to show that consent has been withdrawn and challenge the government's basic legitimacy by disrupting the peace by mass civil disobedience.

Once a protest reaches a certain critical mass  the government has to at least appear to give concessions to the protesters.  With two notable Sino-Soviet exceptions, you simply cannot just roll tanks into the square and kill everyone and remain in power at that point
2014-02-21 03:09:30 PM  
1 vote:
Hey, I wasn't the one comparing a Polish diplomat who was trying to save lives to Hitler.

i.imgur.com
2014-02-21 02:54:20 PM  
1 vote:

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


The liberty to ban Muslims from the country/state? The right to own another person as your property?
2014-02-21 02:48:32 PM  
1 vote:

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


It isn't about fighting a military action, it is about the media.

You know how the North won the Vietnam War and beat the US? By winning the media war. Sure a given operation may cost them 10 or 20 times as many men as it did the US, but every US casualty dealt a blow to the public support for the war.

Standing in a square in defiance of the government and having the world watch a brutal crackdown would help them. A series of terrorist attacks against the government would get them roasted in the world media and open the door wide for Russia and others to send "police" to assist with little anyone can say about it.
2014-02-21 02:44:00 PM  
1 vote:

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Because the new tactic is to gather in mass in front of the world media thus making the government you're protesting against look bad/weak by not appeasing the protesters or make the government look even worse by killing all the protesters.  It's a very easy and effective way to drag the rest of the world in and generally if the protests are organized and they barricade in the square then the rest of the world will likely side with "peaceful" protesters.  The rest of the world likely wouldn't side with the protesters if they, "send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications "

Either way the protesters get at least some of what they want even if it costs their lives.
2014-02-21 02:24:00 PM  
1 vote:
That sounds way more like a plea than a threat to me.
2014-02-21 02:20:45 PM  
1 vote:
CygnusDarius
Well... Wow. I never thought just how much all politicians of the world look alike, in general.

They look the same because they are the same.
2014-02-21 02:18:29 PM  
1 vote:

DamnYankees: Based on how it was said, it sounded more like a warning than a threat.


You in the barricades/listen to this:
There is noone coming to help you figgght
You're own your own/ You have no chance
Give up/ your guns or Die

/he wasn't wrong
//my kid's HS is doing Les Mis and he's been practicing a lot while the news was on so its hard not to see parallels
2014-02-21 02:18:06 PM  
1 vote:
Also, I've a friend in Poland, so this stuff is pretty relevant.
2014-02-21 02:06:27 PM  
1 vote:
Well they weren't wrong.
2014-02-21 02:02:54 PM  
1 vote:
Obvious proof that snipers were Polish Nato snipers. Also Hitler
2014-02-21 02:01:47 PM  
1 vote:
"Than."
2014-02-21 01:18:37 PM  
1 vote:
Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.
2014-02-21 12:29:45 PM  
1 vote:

Magorn: snocone: More surprises.
Oh, be still, my heart.

To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders


Martial law would pretty much guarantee civil war
 
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