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(Telegraph)   The "deal" reached in Ukraine was helped along by a negotiating tactic more familiar to mob bosses than diplomats as Polish foreign minister is caught on tape telling opposition leaders "sign this deal or you will all die"   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 268
    More: Scary, Leader of the Opposition, Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Radek Sikorski, snap elections, paramilitary, signing ceremony  
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8176 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Feb 2014 at 2:00 PM (23 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-21 10:54:35 PM

SR_NightBane: But, you see, when you do that it tends to poison the discussion. You use, and I'm certain you are aware of it since you seem a bright individual, rather toxic terms. In and of itself that is fine but as Le Bon pointed out, crowds are creatures of emotion, so when you stir up that sort of emotion it tends to send the rabble scurrying toward the loud, authoritative voices on the extremes on either side of a debate,


The toxicity is in the described methods.  Any vitriol I may spit is aimed squarely at the people shoving our noses into one tree at a time and reminding us we better get very concerned about that tree.  I'm relatively certain that I couldn't send anybody scurrying william nor nilliam to any ends whatsoever if there were a 7-11 or a RedBox in between their start point and their freedom.
 
2014-02-21 10:58:36 PM
Kittypie070
Anarchy...is not an option.

Sadly, you may be right in this case. The Ukrainian Anarchists have spirit and the skeletons of good organizations (both figuratively and literally), but apparently too few, disorganized, and insular to make hay from this situation.


SR_NightBane
Simply put, how do you reverse the flow of power so that instead of aggregating it diffuses? How do you enfranchise the total population and create a universal sense of agency when it has been proven a certain segment of the population function on instincts similar to or indistinguishable from those of herd animals? If you can't enfranchise the populace universally, how do you keep highly motivated individuals with a bent towards acquiring power from manipulating the situation to their benefit?

I'm a fan of a prefigurative strategy of taking personal risk, challenging everyday authority and coercion, and winning small victories in order to make people feel shame of their weakness and to inspire them with the possibility of resistance so that they too might become willing to rediscover their own strength. The key idea that I've only recently been understanding is that old standards of honor played an important role in organizing Stateless societies, and still exist among people who believe themselves more civilized than that (or who believe nothing at all). Community comes from trust and trust comes from consistent success over time. Unfortunately, there are many who still feel that self-serving activism and hooliganism are somehow productive, when what we need is to be building upstanding community, but I'm working on them.
 
2014-02-21 11:00:38 PM

Krustofsky: Is Yanukovich getting the hell out of Dodge?  Is anyone waiting for him in Dubai? Putin?


Rumors are it's Fujairah Airport in UAE now. Wherever he lands (*if* he was on one of those airplanes), he has enough Ukrainian money in his pockets. That's why the Ukrainian's have none in theirs.
 
2014-02-21 11:06:50 PM

RanDomino: I'm a fan of a prefigurative strategy of taking personal risk, challenging everyday authority and coercion, and winning small victories in order to make people feel shame of their weakness and to inspire them with the possibility of resistance so that they too might become willing to rediscover their own strength.


And that is a noble stance, but unfortunately, it's also about 40 mid budget Hollywood movies.  All of our heroes have already been cast in celluloid and disposed of after they save the world and the credits roll.  Dignity, unity, decency and the public interest have long been relegated to cinematic devices and unless there's a couple of ARRI Alexas pointed at you and a green screen to stand in front of, nobody cares.
 
2014-02-21 11:11:01 PM

RanDomino: SR_NightBane
Simply put, how do you reverse the flow of power so that instead of aggregating it diffuses? How do you enfranchise the total population and create a universal sense of agency when it has been proven a certain segment of the population function on instincts similar to or indistinguishable from those of herd animals? If you can't enfranchise the populace universally, how do you keep highly motivated individuals with a bent towards acquiring power from manipulating the situation to their benefit?

I'm a fan of a prefigurative strategy of taking personal risk, challenging everyday authority and coercion, and winning small victories in order to make people feel shame of their weakness and to inspire them with the possibility of resistance so that they too might become willing to rediscover their own strength. The key idea that I've only recently been understanding is that old standards of honor played an important role in organizing Stateless societies, and still exist among people who believe themselves more civilized than that (or who believe nothing at all). Community comes from trust and trust comes from consistent success over time. Unfortunately, there are many who still feel that self-serving activism and hooliganism are somehow productive, when what we need is to be building upstanding community, but I'm working on them.


An interesting philosophy and one I'm not even entirely opposed to. No, in fact I have a great deal of sympathy for it, the problem as you identify it is one of self serving activism yes, but also one of how to translate the concept of a social contract based in honorable action in to a larger movement. It is my experience that given isolated examples one man or woman here or there can be roused to change their own behavior but it is the masses which are used as the bulwark of the system, their inertia and resistance to change. They resist change of course because it is a hard thing, often a bloody thing, and frightening because so often the end results are unknown.

The obvious answer is to create an organized movement, some sort of group to promote an ideal, but then the macro issue of avoiding a small inner circle self-serving individuals taking advantage of the gravity of power to elevate themselves can be applied to the very body created to address that issue. Trust me, I don't believe this justifies inaction, like yourself I seek to live and embody the change I preach. I even write about this issue somewhat regularly to try and sway others to the cause but there does seem to be an issue of translating individual action to transformative movement.
 
2014-02-21 11:16:12 PM
Social change is like sex.  You gotta wanna or it's no fun.  You wanna change sh*t?  Make people WANT to change sh*t more than they want a Dolce and Gabbana or a new Bently.  And as long as we think that if we arrive at the barb wire fenced in peak of the dunghill with nicer stuff than those "peons", that we R teh winzors, less chance of that happening, there ain't.
 
2014-02-21 11:16:42 PM
*sniffs the apparent buzzword "hooliganism" with extreme care*
 
2014-02-21 11:18:12 PM
Damn. I've gotten caught up in yet another mental trap by sniffing a single word.
 
2014-02-21 11:29:08 PM
bunner
And that is a noble stance, but unfortunately, it's also about 40 mid budget Hollywood movies. All of our heroes have already been cast in celluloid and disposed of after they save the world and the credits roll. Dignity, unity, decency and the public interest have long been relegated to cinematic devices and unless there's a couple of ARRI Alexas pointed at you and a green screen to stand in front of, nobody cares.

Your big-picture view is working against you. We don't need a one-size-fits-all fix or a mass movement. We need a couple million little movements, which gradually come together.
 
2014-02-21 11:30:39 PM
Kittypie070
*sniffs the apparent buzzword "hooliganism" with extreme care*

People who seem to think that fighting cops and smashing windows are ends unto themselves.
 
2014-02-21 11:33:42 PM

RanDomino: Your big-picture view is working against you. We don't need a one-size-fits-all fix or a mass movement. We need a couple million little movements, which gradually come together.


under what auspices?  By whose interests?  through what not wholly owned and monitored comm network or method?  Bake sale, feel good activism can cheer you up, but it seldom gains without focus.  Here's an idea for a "bunch of small movements" with a large scale focus.  Leviathans are filter feeders.  They take in billions, 3.99 at a time.  Shut their food supply off, 3.99 at a time.
 
2014-02-21 11:34:53 PM
I have just opened the 5 канал - ефір наживо YouTube livestream.

Here is a link to the Maidan Hotspot if anyone wishes to watch.
 
2014-02-21 11:35:29 PM

RanDomino: Kittypie070
*sniffs the apparent buzzword "hooliganism" with extreme care*

People who seem to think that fighting cops and smashing windows are ends unto themselves.


Much like the people who think that shoving everything useful thing on earth into their garage and building a fence around it is "winning".
 
2014-02-21 11:42:17 PM

Deep Contact: Poland, who used cavalry to attack German tanks. Still can't figure that one out.


Don't try, it didn't happen.
 
2014-02-21 11:47:27 PM
Look, here's how I see it. RanDomino and bunner are both correct.

The vital point, whether it's a mass movement or a huge gathering of smaller movements, is to concentrate on a mutually agreed SMALL set of FOCUSED targets.

In smaller words, pick your battles.

Pick them very very carefully and make sure you have a decent chance of winning them.

OWS made their biggest tactical stumble by attempting to put a whole pile of smaller, disparate, unrelated causes into their What Is The One Thing We Want basket.

I was one tiny mew in a vast sea of confused shouting.
 
2014-02-21 11:54:29 PM
bunner
under what auspices?

Is that necessary?

By whose interests?

Well I sure don't personally know everyone in the entire world.

through what not wholly owned and monitored comm network or method?

Still thinking too top-down.


Kittypie070
In smaller words, pick your battles.

Pick them very very carefully and make sure you have a decent chance of winning them.

OWS made their biggest tactical stumble by attempting to put a whole pile of smaller, disparate, unrelated causes into their What Is The One Thing We Want basket.


*headscratch*
 
2014-02-21 11:55:31 PM
cutearoo.com
 
2014-02-21 11:55:54 PM
 
2014-02-22 12:04:25 AM
*headscratch*

*burble*

....and back on Espreso TV - LIVE, someone was making a speech. I think it might be "Angry Guy". The voice is similar at least.

Ahh, they're doing some looking back.

There's the Berkut helmet&shield-stacking scene....
 
2014-02-22 12:05:27 AM
Berkut or cops. Hard to tell at the moment.
 
2014-02-22 12:13:09 AM
Just after 7 in Kyiv.

Less than 3 hours before protestors act on their ultimatum

"Either force the president's resignation by 10 a.m. tomorrow and renounce your deal with Yanukovych or opposition troops will advance to the government headquarters."
 
2014-02-22 12:31:24 AM
Ohhhh one thing you do NOT do is create martyrs, Yanu you farking dimwit.

Nice going.

In about a century, those people you had shot by your little sniper wusses are gonna be elevated to sainthood.
 
2014-02-22 01:15:25 AM
I went hunting, and I do believe I've found another livestream on YT.

Громадське ONLINE
 
2014-02-22 01:31:30 AM
Compilation of Lenin statues coming down across Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBTG7PBcDw
 
2014-02-22 02:03:30 AM
well it just rang 9 AM over there.
 
2014-02-22 02:05:06 AM
Громадське ONLINE
- one more hour to go.
 
2014-02-22 02:21:11 AM
The Espreso feed is showing Maidan.  Now there's a stack of announcements for people looking for each, camp work needing volunteers, money being sent from different parts of the country, and other directions.  The guy doesn't see very well and it's difficult reading in the handwritten notes.
 
2014-02-22 02:36:21 AM
Naatje: Compilation of Lenin statues coming down across Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBTG7PBcDw


Wow, that is just as surreal as it can be.
 
2014-02-22 02:42:30 AM
whoa, a big ol cheer just went up a moment ago. I'm looking at the Espreso feed.
 
2014-02-22 02:42:39 AM
Klitschko just said he's going to Verkhovna Rada to push forward a measure to impeach Yanukovich.
 
2014-02-22 02:46:08 AM

Kittypie070: Ohhhh one thing you do NOT do is create martyrs, Yanu you farking dimwit.

Nice going.

In about a century, those people you had shot by your little sniper wusses are gonna be elevated to sainthood.


Yeah, like all those medics the Vietcong sniped.

Oh, wait, not only don't we remember their names, we pretend today that they never even existed, because that was the price we had to pay to reconcile with the winners of the Vietnam War.

/and when Putin tells us that Olesia Zhukovska never existed, we will forget her too
 
2014-02-22 02:55:39 AM
These two priests are singing up there on the stage. I...guess they're blessing the crowd as well.

It sounds oddly melancholy only because I don't understand the language.
 
2014-02-22 03:01:53 AM
And it's one minute after 10 AM in Kiev.
 
2014-02-22 03:04:19 AM
Verkhovna Rada is now meeting and there are now reports that Yanukovich never landed in Kharkiv after leaving Kyiv last night.
 
2014-02-22 04:02:04 AM
Uh-oh, there went the Espreso TV link on YouTube. Technical problems, allegedly.

Switching to Громадське ONLINE.
 
2014-02-22 04:08:14 AM
I'm calling it a night here on Fark but leaving the live feed open, g'nights all.

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2014-02-22 04:12:04 AM
Well, according to BBC coverage, it looks like nobody has much idea where the Ukrainian head of state is. No more riot police either. People are wandering around "empty" government buildings. That must be surreal.
 
2014-02-22 04:27:27 AM
Anyone notice bullet impacts in this here video (I have to ask)? Around 0:19, you can see 2 trees that run through the middle of the screen. The one closest to the men is being hit (white dot suddenly appears).

The next video is filmed from exactly the same location, and is filming in the same direction. At 0:56, the camera is pointing toward the top of an incline, and this time, it is clear that the bullet is coming from the right. This means that the sniper must have been shooting from an elevated location (because there is a small wall, see here).
Since there are too many trees in the way for the sniper to have been in or on another building, I think the sniper must have been *in* the hotel, more specifically the South wing. There is also a steel fire ladder that runs to the top of the roof, which could serve as an escape route.

All this may be the reason why so many guys were shot: they thought the sniper was in front of them, while in reality he was in or around the Ukraine Hotel --from where this and the next video was shot (there was also a search for a sniper, on I think multiple times).
 
2014-02-22 04:43:22 AM
I'm afraid that those responsible for the shootings will escape justice.

Live updates from Kyiv Post on developments in Ukraine:
 
2014-02-22 04:58:23 AM
Ustym Golodnyuk, a 19-year-old Democratic Alliance volunteer, was shot dead by a sniper early on Feb. 20.

Medics took his body from the street to the main floor of Ukraina Hotel, which had been turned into a makeshift medical center, where his father later identified him.

"I do not know whether (President Viktor) Yanukovych has to stand in front of me on his knees, but I know exactly that he has to be brought in front of the international tribunal for what he did to my country and to my son," Democratic Alliance reported Golodnyuk's father as saying.


They won't forget, they will NEVER forget, they have very long memories, and someone will pursue Yanujerkoff to the ends of the earth.

also, espreso live is operational again in YouTube
 
2014-02-22 05:11:30 AM

Kittypie070: Ustym Golodnyuk, a 19-year-old Democratic Alliance volunteer, was shot dead by a sniper early on Feb. 20.


He wore a blue helmet, and told his father he didn't have to be afraid for him, because "he had the magic blue UN helmet, nothing would happen to him" ... . I think Ustym is in the videos that I posted, you can see him carried off.
The reports about his father removing the blanket covering his face and discovering the blue helmet are heart-wrenching:

farm4.staticflickr.com

Source: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-fe b-21-live-updates-337287.html?flavour=mobile ("The father of Ustym Golodnyuk points to a bullet hole in the helmet his son wore during the clashes after identifying his son's body on Feb. 20.")
 
2014-02-22 05:11:44 AM
Map of faceplanting Lenin monuments

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-02-22 05:24:25 AM
Poor Ukrainians.  They're thinking too top down.  *snort*
 
2014-02-22 05:32:25 AM
If the Ukrainian president really is in Kharkiv attempting to break the east off into a separate, Russia-backed country, he should be hanged for treason.
 
2014-02-22 05:38:57 AM

supageil: If the Ukrainian president really is in Kharkiv attempting to break the east off into a separate, Russia-backed country, he should be hanged for treason.


He'll be lynched, shot, or (worst case?), stand trial in the Hague. He's done more than that wrong.


On a lighter note: MEN vs. Berkut - "Fight!" (I promise, it's on topic but funny).
 
2014-02-22 05:51:12 AM
They're inside the palace I think; they're finding documents in the river, a hovercraft, a 60's classic car (?), ... . Anyone have a stream of that camera?

Ceaușescu, Saddam, Mubarak, Gaddafi, others; meet Yanukovych.
 
2014-02-22 05:53:12 AM

flexflint: They're inside the palace I think; they're finding documents in the river, a hovercraft, a 60's classic car (?), ... . Anyone have a stream of that camera?

Ceaușescu, Saddam, Mubarak, Gaddafi, others; meet Yanukovych.


A giant hall with boats ... .
 
2014-02-22 06:00:48 AM

flexflint: A giant hall with boats ... .


They kept filming people on streets somewhere for the last hour or so, and it's only now that I realize this is the compound of Yanukovich ... well at least I think it is, it looks huge.
 
2014-02-22 06:03:56 AM
"Lviv meets the Heroes of celestial Hundreds ... Night 22.02.2014"

farm4.staticflickr.com

from: https://twitter.com/mikekomar/status/437009234400534528

Also:
@myroslavapetsa Rada about to introduce Roma statute in #Ukraine. If that happens, #Yanukovych and his gang to face trials in the Hague
 
2014-02-22 06:21:15 AM
List of bribed cops, or people to bribe:

pbs.twimg.com


Fotos of journalist Tanya Chornovol and (I think) instructions on how to "handle" her (Google it, she was beaten up very bad a few times):
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=744191065593018


@olgatokariuk: first pics arriving from what was before today #Yanukovich luxury residence in Mezhygirya
pbs.twimg.com
pbs.twimg.com
things going fast now, also in parliament
 
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