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(Telegraph)   The "deal" reached in Ukraine was helped along by a negotiating tactic more familiar to mob bosses than diplomats as Polish foreign minister is caught on tape telling opposition leaders "sign this deal or you will all die"   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 268
    More: Scary, Leader of the Opposition, Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Radek Sikorski, snap elections, paramilitary, signing ceremony  
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8223 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Feb 2014 at 2:00 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



268 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-02-21 06:48:31 PM  

dywed88: So, no.


I am not responsible for your reading comprehension being limited to that which you already believe or the narrow scope it resides in.
 
2014-02-21 06:49:47 PM  
Paramedics from Hungary.

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-02-21 06:51:02 PM  

traylor: Berkut in Dnipropetrowsk hand over the outfit to protesters

[pbs.twimg.com image 720x960]

FYI, location of Dnipropetrowsk:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x166]

Lenin monuments went down in Dnipropetrowsk, Poltava, Pryluky, Slavuta, Bila Tserkva...


Oh that one pic has made it worthwhile today.

:)
 
2014-02-21 06:51:27 PM  
Russian TV

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-02-21 06:55:52 PM  

traylor: Russian TV

[pbs.twimg.com image 750x600]


Are they shiatting us?
 
2014-02-21 06:58:37 PM  
A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f
 
2014-02-21 06:59:09 PM  
Whatever you can sell the most people on, who are willing to pay your bills or afraid not to, is what runs things.
 
2014-02-21 07:05:19 PM  
I hear rumours through the grapevine that there were something like 60+ other VIP flights out of the Ukraine as well.
 
2014-02-21 07:07:32 PM  

danzak: A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f


Uhm ... it's going in the direction of Tehran now, WTF?
 
2014-02-21 07:08:31 PM  

Kittypie070: I hear rumours through the grapevine that there were something like 60+ other VIP flights out of the Ukraine as well.


180 left on one day, according to a business woman that was on state TV here.
 
2014-02-21 07:09:49 PM  
what brave statesmen they are.
 
2014-02-21 07:13:07 PM  

Kittypie070: traylor: Russian TV

[pbs.twimg.com image 750x600]

Are they shiatting us?


Didn't you know that in Russia first aid kills you...
 
2014-02-21 07:45:29 PM  

flexflint: danzak: A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f

Uhm ... it's going in the direction of Tehran now, WTF?


This is now being reported on EspressoTV.  Maybe it's legit
 
2014-02-21 07:47:30 PM  

bunner: dywed88: So, no.

I am not responsible for your reading comprehension being limited to that which you already believe or the narrow scope it resides in.


You posted two words that have nothing to do with forms of government or government processes and a rant.

Give an actual alternative. Suggest actions that can be taken (in the real world).
 
2014-02-21 07:54:39 PM  

dywed88: You posted two words that have nothing to do with forms of government or government processes and a rant.


Horsesh*t.

dywed88: Give an actual alternative. Suggest actions that can be taken (in the real world).


I hope you saved the receipt for your pose of authority.  Sometimes when I'm on this site, I feel like I'm standing in front of a RedBox with 345658 copies of the same movie I got tired of sitting through years ago.  Bye.
 
2014-02-21 07:56:10 PM  
And the alternative? Getting slaughtered anyway, but looking like biatches in the process.
 
2014-02-21 08:04:46 PM  

flexflint: Kittypie070: I hear rumours through the grapevine that there were something like 60+ other VIP flights out of the Ukraine as well.

180 left on one day, according to a business woman that was on state TV here.


They did have like 360 of them in Parliament including 130 from PoR so I guess they got denied and had to return
 
2014-02-21 08:29:49 PM  

midigod: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke


Even more to the point of the joke, it applies no MATTER WHAT PARTICULAR VERSION YOU ARE USING AS VERSION 1.0 :D

If you're talking the Constitution of 1787 (which was actually Constitution 2.0), the Bill of Rights was actually passed as a bugfix of sorts in the 1790s after it was brought up that Assuming Was A Bad Thing.  (There is actually a decent argument--based in part on Constitution 1.0, which we'll discuss in a minute--that there was still entirely too much assuming going on, particularly regarding the role of the states in maintaining the "militia" mentioned in the Second Amendment, but we'll get to that shortly.)

As for Constitution 1.0...not a lot of folks remember that one, as that wasn't called a "Constitution" and more of an "Articles of Confederation".  I also expect a lot of people who consider the Second Amendment an excuse to masturbate furiously with an American flag stroking a rather large weapon as a penile surrogate would not be terribly happy with the Articles of Confederation for a number of reasons:

a) Aforementioned "Articles" explicitly set up the US pretty much EXACTLY in the way the EU is set up now, with the sole exceptions being that there was LESS of a functional parliamentary government (and this was pretty much explicitly by design, and it went right to shiat in less than ten years) and--unlike the EU--there was a NATO-esque "American Army" of sorts set up.  There were also no laws on the states passing laws mandating that citizenship was restricted to a particular flavour of Christianity (there were some states that--I shiat you not--you could not legally vote in unless you were the RIGHT flavour of Baptist or Methodist or Episcopalian).

Yeah, you could have guns.  Were mandated to, in fact.  Unfortunately for Second Amendment fans, there were actually more restrictions (like, oh, the whole reason you were allowed to have guns is because you were legally considered to be part of the army of your state in case the NDNs or French or British decided to get pissy and you HAD to be in prime "fighting fit" condition ALL THE TIME and were required to take two weeks out of every six months to train at your state guard recruitment center on pain of imprisonment).

Yes, you're reading this right: the laws in Constitution 1.0 (and in conjunction with the early Militia Acts, technically with 2.0 as well) pretty much stated outright the whole reason you had guns was to do Canton Guards just like in Switzerland (apparently there were Notes Taken from the Hessians) and you could legally be denied the right to own a gun if you were too gimped/too crazy/too derpy/too blind to shoot straight because pretty much every guy who could be trusted to not perform a Bobbit-operation-via-musket was considered de facto drafted from the time he could vote to the time he could no longer be trusted to not shoot himself in the hrbls.  (Somehow I don't think the whole "YOU WILL FARKING GO TO BOOT CAMP OR WE WILL HAVE YOU THROWN IN THE LOCAL TARDFARM OR IN PRISON" would go so well with the usual "BUT FREEDUM!" narrative some have.)

Oh, and the right to own a weapon (or to vote, or to do a lot of things--often up to and including "use tools and live indoors and generally be considered a fellow human") essentially didn't exist if you weren't a white male Anglo-Saxon of the right flavour of Protestantism for your state.  Just sayin'.  (These, too, have been bug-fixed by various things we call "acts of Congress" and "Amendments to the Constitution"--a process that is actually quite a bit easier under Constitution 2.0 versus 1.0, as 2.0 actually included an explicit revision process that didn't require a complete rewrite.  A lot of folks are still rather butthurt about the emergency zero-day patches put in around 1867 or so--the largest since the 1791 emergency bugfix we call the "BIll of Rights rollout"--but they've helped the Constitutional code remain remarkably stable.  We've actually done pretty good with the bugfixes, in that we've only had to pull one so far (where a proposed "feature inclusion" tended to severely wreck the performance of the body politic).  Realistically only one "include group of people as US citizens" bugfix seems to have been done without a Constitutional bugfix of some sort, and that was the series of "Let's actually consider the potential originators of some of the source code for our Constitution who've lived here for 18,000 years plus actually be in the 'citizens' userclass rather than the 'effectively stateless persons' subclass" that passed in the 20s through late 40s.)
 
2014-02-21 08:32:41 PM  
Declare Martial law.
Call in the Military.
Prey they are on your side.
 
2014-02-21 08:33:31 PM  
bunner DID give suggestions some other place. I was the one ranting that day, and bunner gave me a soft tap on the nose for it instead of a boot in the @$$ for my insolence.

site:fark.com in Google might be a good start if you want to expend actual effort instead of sitting there yelling at bunner.

Quit trying to bite the pointing finger.
 
2014-02-21 08:37:28 PM  
Yanukovich changes planes in Iran, is now on UAE132 headed to Dubai... http://t.co/tmjkSREn1W
 
2014-02-21 08:38:43 PM  

flexflint: danzak: A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f

Uhm ... it's going in the direction of Tehran now, WTF?


And latest update, going away from Dubai (I assume denied landing rights?) and flying in general direction of Saudi Arabia...
 
2014-02-21 08:38:46 PM  
Hold on, did I just poast in the wrong thread?

dammitall.

sorry.
 
2014-02-21 08:40:24 PM  
No, I'm OK.
 
2014-02-21 08:41:38 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: flexflint: danzak: A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f

Uhm ... it's going in the direction of Tehran now, WTF?

And latest update, going away from Dubai (I assume denied landing rights?) and flying in general direction of Saudi Arabia...


And correcting correction--seems to be in a holding pattern outside of international airport in Dubai.  Might be negotiating whether or not landing is allowed, or might just have a lot of airport congestion...
 
2014-02-21 08:45:33 PM  
In a perfect democracy, government is empowered at the behest of and with the consent of the governed.

None of this gymnastic, blowahardery, profit über alles, tap dancing and "harrumph" bullsh*t.

You elect officials who, as a matter of governance, are capable or managing, administering, and regulating matters of defense, commerce, general welfare and progress and laws.  Every voting cycle, they get a review and are either patted on the head or kicked to the curb.

So actual, pure form democracy doesn't exist.  Narrowing one's view to the slit in the fence where the only visible object is the tattered label on a now empty can doesn't make a democracy.  And it doesn't protect any of its constituency.  And it doesn't keep the simple bedrock ideal of effective governance I outlined from getting dropped off behind the dumpster, sad and bruised and with a 5.00 bill stuffed in its shirt.  Picking one of three options from three bins of stale, mushy fruit doesn't mean you're eating what's on the picture on the basket.
 
2014-02-21 08:54:14 PM  

Kittypie070: bunner DID give suggestions some other place. I was the one ranting that day, and bunner gave me a soft tap on the nose for it instead of a boot in the @$$ for my insolence.

site:fark.com in Google might be a good start if you want to expend actual effort instead of sitting there yelling at bunner.

Quit trying to bite the pointing finger.


Kitty?   You want to know why you usually contribute way more than any other user here?  You   WANT   to learn things and you pay attention and you don't have any agendas.  Around here. that's gold pressed latinum.
 
2014-02-21 08:55:54 PM  
Every voting cycle, they get a review and are either patted on the head or kicked to the curb.

Consent of the governed means other things besides consent. It means be watchful.

It means the governed should not let officials run on auto-pilot.
 
2014-02-21 09:08:17 PM  
Well, I usually pay attention. Sometimes I'm just in here for laughs.

But...I dunno but I must have a Gene Kranz streak somewhere because it's "the success of the mission and the safety of the ENTIRE crew", so to speak, that is important.

The mission being the reason this nation was founded, the crew being the entire complement of people living here.

Or for that matter, let's say, the safety and well being of the Ukranian people, and the reason for the existence of their nation.

They have a right, they have a really legitimate set of grievances against the government they FORMERLY consented to.

It's not like they're rebelling against their government because of some utter bullcrap reason like "Keap soshulizm out of ARE Medikare sckooters, Marx0bama is a TRYANT, NO AMNETSY, Whar Birf Certificit?? and we are in a POLICE STATE because postal regulations waah overseas mailing of PERFUME!".

Yeah, I am sorry for the crappy cheap shot. I just couldn't pass it up.
 
2014-02-21 09:09:07 PM  

Kittypie070: It means the governed should not let officials run on auto-pilot.


And this bit of wisdom is useful when all of the offerings aren't simply any given set of sock puppets on two sides of an octopus and all bought and paid for.  You can vote for a pound of butter or a steak and you'e still gonna get a cow on a leash.
 
2014-02-21 09:17:19 PM  
Looks like someone didn't forget Poland this time.
 
2014-02-21 09:18:30 PM  
AOJ92C must have been denied landing rights in Dubai, as they are now out of the holding pattern and flying east of Dubai, looks like a landing may be attempted in Fujairah (a rather more obscure part of the UAE) or possibly somewhere in Oman (somewhere in Muscat, specifically).

The other plane (the Emirates Air flight) is still circling in the same holding pattern it's been for the past 15 minutes or so.
 
2014-02-21 09:23:54 PM  
I've been thinking about this all day, and I've concluded that I feel for the people that are continuing to protest.

I know I'm supposed to assume the people still pushing for change are Nazis or whatever, but I had to put myself in their shoes.

If our President was responsible for the presence of snipers on the roof of buildings in DC, shooting unarmed protesters, until 50+ were dead...I'd have a hard time waiting up to ten months to get rid of him. Wouldn't you?

The peace agreement should have included the immediate resignation of the current Ukrainian President and a bar onhim holding office in Ukraine again, in return for protection out of the country. It also should have included guaranteed international election oversight, and a blocking of Russian influence. After what Russia did to fan these flames, they damn well don't deserve a say in what happens now.

How would you like a country practically invading and corrupting yours to the point where you risked your life to protest, and then have that same country demand a say in the compromise you fought for? fark that.

I understand the Russian bullshiat situation that makes abrupt change in that part of the world a risk. But isn't that even MORE of an incentive to deal with this situation right now? If Putin's already on the phone with Obama, telling Obama that he wants to have a "say" in the peace process...after everything Putin did to fark up Ukraine...wouldn't it be good to handle things as quickly as possible, and shut Putin out as much as we can help the Ukrainians do? Giving Putin up to 10 months to use the current Ukrainian administration as puppets, especially now that Russia really sees what's on the line, seems very foolish indeed.

So yes, I feel for the Ukrainians continuing to protest. Tey surely know they're risking losing international support, and they're going ahead anyway. That's brave.
 
2014-02-21 09:24:59 PM  
We pretty much handed over our economy, which is pretty directly linked to the results/products of the work of our own hands at our jobs. What happened to it? WE ended up getting blamed for the crash by the people whose greed caused it.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories. NO ONE should for two reasons and two reasons alone:ONE: they give an illusion of understanding that can lead to textbook cases of clinical insanity, while a real understanding of the real situation goes begging for attention.

And TWO: The person {or organization} telling people these theories always has something to peddle for an inflated price. The customer ends up paying double -- not only in money but in actual emotional damage that can end up blunting the intellect.

The Ukranians don't have the overwhelmingly brain-gripping kind of media we have, and maybe that's one point in their favour.

What happened to the Ukranian economy, though? Another Farker mentioned above that the Ukraine had become something like a gigantic company town with pretty much worthless scrip.
 
2014-02-21 09:46:12 PM  
LewDux
Unlike in all other political systems, there things stay the same for centuries

Strength is not a "system".


bunner
I am not responsible for your reading comprehension being limited to that which you already believe or the narrow scope it resides in.

I think what he wants is for you need to stick to single-word answers that he can easily dismiss with shallow strawmen. For example I could say Anarchism, and I could probably think of the first two or three things I'm sure he'd say about that.


Kittypie070

This is what happens inside my head when you post

s9.postimg.org
 
2014-02-21 09:57:48 PM  
Oh my gosh.
 
2014-02-21 09:58:12 PM  
danzak
Great Porn Dragon:
AOJ92C must have been denied landing rights in Dubai, as they are now out of the holding pattern and flying east of Dubai, looks like a landing may be attempted in Fujairah (a rather more obscure part of the UAE) or possibly somewhere in Oman (somewhere in Muscat, specifically).

The other plane (the Emirates Air flight) is still circling in the same holding pattern it's been for the past 15 minutes or so.


Almost down in Dubai now.
 
2014-02-21 10:19:09 PM  

RanDomino: I think what he wants is for you need to stick to single-word answers that he can easily dismiss with shallow strawmen. For example I could say Anarchism, and I could probably think of the first two or three things I'm sure he'd say about that



Yeah, mozacklee.  And the preponderance of that ostensibly small assortment of options is precisely what I dismissed as an utter empirical failure.  Go figure.
 
2014-02-21 10:21:34 PM  
Is Yanukovich getting the hell out of Dodge?  Is anyone waiting for him in Dubai? Putin?
 
2014-02-21 10:21:47 PM  
Anarchy...is not an option.
 
2014-02-21 10:23:06 PM  
You say conspiracy, I say business plan.  History backs me up, so far.  The world has largely been defined by disingenuous cocksuckers who met behind closed doors.  The shenanigans of conniving and preposterously self important men are writ much larger than the scribblings of the psychological sciences.
 
2014-02-21 10:33:31 PM  
In 1604, everybody knew that all objects were unique and had properties that caused them to fall at different speeds, the earth was the center of the universe, and Copernicus and Aristotle figured everything out for us a long time ago and that saying otherwise was heresy, or worse, made you a 17th c.libtard, soshlist, mooslim comm'niss.  Check your iPhone 5 clock app, folks.  You best start believing in historical cautionary tales.  You're in one.
 
2014-02-21 10:33:50 PM  
That's one reason I was clear about not believing in conspiracy theory.

A business plan does not come with the cabalistic emo-peddling baggage of the loaded word "conspiracy".

It can be analyzed logically in a relatively dispassionate manner with far less wharrgarbl and derp.

To a small and clumsy extent, I understand the uses of language.
 
2014-02-21 10:36:01 PM  
You best start believing in historical cautionary tales. You're in one.

OK, now we gotta figure out the actual lessons involved here.
 
2014-02-21 10:39:19 PM  
I may be wrong, but I'm reading a lot of the objection to bunner's statements as taking issue with the lack of specifics, except the grand terms used to describe the abuses they perceive. Many of which I will even admit are valid in part or in whole. There is no mechanism of government described to curtail these abuses, not even in a narrowly defined hypothetical situation. It causes what could otherwise be an engaging offer to discuss the tendency of social structures to degenerate in oligarchy to have the appearance of anarchistic platitudes one would find being spouted in any university campus' coffee shop by your stereotypical college radical in a mass produced che t-shirt slurping cappucino from an agri-corp operation.

Simply put, how do you reverse the flow of power so that instead of aggregating it diffuses? How do you enfranchise the total population and create a universal sense of agency when it has been proven a certain segment of the population function on instincts similar to or indistinguishable from those of herd animals? If you can't enfranchise the populace universally, how do you keep highly motivated individuals with a bent towards acquiring power from manipulating the situation to their benefit?

Because democracy in it's various adulterated forms does a better job of addressing these concerns than other existing power structures thanks to the presumption of a popular will it is generally held as the golden standard, but true democracy does not exist as bunner and others so rightly pointed out, and for the reasons I believe I have expressed. How do you address them?
 
2014-02-21 10:39:54 PM  

Kittypie070: You best start believing in historical cautionary tales. You're in one.

OK, now we gotta figure out the actual lessons involved here.


Every single time too much power and wealth got concentrated into the hands of a small subset of any given population, national, regional or global, the tripped over their own hubris and woke up in the ashes of their own greed.  This is like plain as the balls on a tall dog type history.  This isn't even comparative analysis.  These are the damn bricks it's standing on.
 
2014-02-21 10:42:12 PM  

SR_NightBane: I may be wrong, but I'm reading a lot of the objection to bunner's statements as taking issue with the lack of specifics, except the grand terms used to describe the abuses they perceive.



Anybody wishing to call me for not being able to see the trees for the forest will get no argument.  Since we're up to our gazoinkies in tree experts, I'm sort of fine with it.
 
2014-02-21 10:46:28 PM  
Poland, who used cavalry to attack German tanks. Still can't figure that one out.
 
2014-02-21 10:47:34 PM  
Lemme try and explain.

Most people tend to see this, please forgive the stock art.


image.shutterstock.com 

I tend to see this.
graphics8.nytimes.com
 
2014-02-21 10:49:42 PM  

bunner: SR_NightBane: I may be wrong, but I'm reading a lot of the objection to bunner's statements as taking issue with the lack of specifics, except the grand terms used to describe the abuses they perceive.


Anybody wishing to call me for not being able to see the trees for the forest will get no argument.  Since we're up to our gazoinkies in tree experts, I'm sort of fine with it.


But, you see, when you do that it tends to poison the discussion. You use, and I'm certain you are aware of it since you seem a bright individual, rather toxic terms. In and of itself that is fine but as Le Bon pointed out, crowds are creatures of emotion, so when you stir up that sort of emotion it tends to send the rabble scurrying toward the loud, authoritative voices on the extremes on either side of a debate,
 
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