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(Telegraph)   The "deal" reached in Ukraine was helped along by a negotiating tactic more familiar to mob bosses than diplomats as Polish foreign minister is caught on tape telling opposition leaders "sign this deal or you will all die"   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 268
    More: Scary, Leader of the Opposition, Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Radek Sikorski, snap elections, paramilitary, signing ceremony  
•       •       •

8186 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Feb 2014 at 2:00 PM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-21 04:52:34 PM

mbillips: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

No, goofus, he means the Constitution without those pesky amendments, especially the 13th and 14th. The one that said "non-free" persons counted as 3/5 for allocating Congressional representation. Y'know, Ron Paul's Constitution.


Another stunning example of how natural rights don't exist.  Liberty, FFS!  Liberty is the basic foundation of "natural rights," and it took us how long to say "Don't enslave people?"

That it even had to be said, let alone written as an amendment to our basic law.

It's also interesting how out Constitution started off as a document saying "government doesn't have the power to restrict the people," and out of necessity became "government really needs to restrict the people sometimes."
 
2014-02-21 04:55:02 PM
sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.
 
2014-02-21 04:56:07 PM
shiatty reporting.  They are obviously trying to shock people into reading the article by portraying the man as a mob boss, but he's simply making a statement about the outcome of martial law.
 
2014-02-21 05:00:44 PM

Tigger: sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.


Uh.  Enumerated just means "listed."

Now, the ninth says that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

But then why have the list?  Why not just say "Government may not deny or disparage any rights retained by the people?"

Because people are assholes, and need to be told what their rights are.
 
2014-02-21 05:04:09 PM

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.

Uh.  Enumerated just means "listed."

Now, the ninth says that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

But then why have the list?  Why not just say "Government may not deny or disparage any rights retained by the people?"

Because people are assholes, and need to be told what their rights are.


The meaning of enumerate has nothing to do with where and why you are wrong.

Your position: The consitution enumerates your rights
The truth: The constitution details the limits on government with regards to your rights.

It's grade school civics mate.
 
2014-02-21 05:07:04 PM
Yanukovych flown to Kharkiv, due to square's threats of violence if no resignation by 10:00AM.
 
2014-02-21 05:10:32 PM

bunner: Behind every vote, every desk in every bureaucracy, every bank note and wealthy man's gates are a bunch of people who, by laws of their own making, are allowed to shoot you if you don't play along with the interests of the people who have most of the desks, bank notes, vest pocketed bureaucrats and properties that need gates.

The rule of law has always been nothing more than codified constructs wherein, depending on how many people you can get to yell "BULLSH*T!" at once, you're fair game.  Criminal law, in it's truest sense, is a different box of cookies but has been subverted to the point where they aim the guns at the wrong people half the time, anyhow.

I am grateful for the greed mongers stripping the paint off the wall, the erosion of any pretense to leadership that political power has been exposed to by its own actions, and the internet.

Because the last one made the first two very obvious.  Now all we have to do is figure out how far we'll go to act on this information and divest ourselves of a now useless, archaic and violent system of governance and commerce that has nothing resembling a useful cost / benefits analysis in the post modern world.


And move to what?
 
2014-02-21 05:10:47 PM

Truther: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

Wat?


Obviously "Truther" hasn't been or can't pay attention to the current regime .. that or "Truther" is an Obama Operative. But I'll give "Truther" this much .. the RINOs on the Hill are godforsaken ass-wipes who will face judgement day, come the elections.

More Tea, sir?
 
2014-02-21 05:10:49 PM

Tigger: sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.

Uh.  Enumerated just means "listed."

Now, the ninth says that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

But then why have the list?  Why not just say "Government may not deny or disparage any rights retained by the people?"

Because people are assholes, and need to be told what their rights are.

The meaning of enumerate has nothing to do with where and why you are wrong.

Your position: The consitution enumerates your rights
The truth: The constitution details the limits on government with regards to your rights.

It's grade school civics mate.


Why is a list of (some) rights necessary?
 
2014-02-21 05:10:55 PM
guess i was prescient in getting those screenshots

:(
 
2014-02-21 05:11:53 PM

sendtodave: mbillips: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

No, goofus, he means the Constitution without those pesky amendments, especially the 13th and 14th. The one that said "non-free" persons counted as 3/5 for allocating Congressional representation. Y'know, Ron Paul's Constitution.

Another stunning example of how natural rights don't exist.  Liberty, FFS!  Liberty is the basic foundation of "natural rights," and it took us how long to say "Don't enslave people?"

That it even had to be said, let alone written as an amendment to our basic law.

It's also interesting how out Constitution started off as a document saying "government doesn't have the power to restrict the people," and out of necessity became "government really needs to restrict the people sometimes."


So you're good with the gov't telling you what rights you have?  Does that also mean you're good with 'em taking said rights away?
 
2014-02-21 05:12:50 PM

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.

Uh.  Enumerated just means "listed."

Now, the ninth says that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

But then why have the list?  Why not just say "Government may not deny or disparage any rights retained by the people?"

Because people are assholes, and need to be told what their rights are.

The meaning of enumerate has nothing to do with where and why you are wrong.

Your position: The consitution enumerates your rights
The truth: The constitution details the limits on government with regards to your rights.

It's grade school civics mate.

Why is a list of (some) rights necessary?


Because gov't always takes what it hasn't been told explicitly it may not?
 
2014-02-21 05:14:45 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

Restore it?  Absolutely!  First though, tell us where/when it seemingly was lost, so we know where to begin our search.


First Amendment: hate speech
Second Amendment: gun-free zones
 
2014-02-21 05:18:30 PM

sendtodave: mbillips: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

No, goofus, he means the Constitution without those pesky amendments, especially the 13th and 14th. The one that said "non-free" persons counted as 3/5 for allocating Congressional representation. Y'know, Ron Paul's Constitution.

Another stunning example of how natural rights don't exist.  Liberty, FFS!  Liberty is the basic foundation of "natural rights," and it took us how long to say "Don't enslave people?"

That it even had to be said, let alone written as an amendment to our basic law.

It's also interesting how out Constitution started off as a document saying "government doesn't have the power to restrict the people," and out of necessity became "government really needs to restrict the people sometimes."


Meh, it is pretty simple. On the whole people are typically awful.

All laws are inherently about restricted people (whether a few people in the government or the general population).
 
2014-02-21 05:18:31 PM

BgJonson79: So you're good with the gov't telling you what rights you have?  Does that also mean you're good with 'em taking said rights away?


Doesn't really matter if I am good with it or not, they can, and do.  Repeatedly.

Heck, our country was founded on taking obvious natural rights away from huge groups of people.

I'm with George Carlin.

In 1942 there were 110,000 Japanese-American citizens, in good standing, law abiding people, who were thrown into internment camps simply because their parents were born in the wrong country. That's all they did wrong. They had no right to a lawyer, no right to a fair trial, no right to a jury of their peers, no right to due process of any kind. The only right they had was...right this way! Into the internment camps.

Just when these American citizens needed their rights the most...their government took them away. and rights aren't rights if someone can take em away. They're privileges. That's all we've ever had in this country is a bill of TEMPORARY privileges; and if you read the news, even badly, you know the list get's shorter, and shorter, and shorter.


Really, all rights are civil rights if they can be taken away.

And this is all aside from the fact that no one can say where natural rights come from.  "The Creator?"  Never met the guy.
 
2014-02-21 05:20:00 PM

BgJonson79: Because gov't always takes what it hasn't been told explicitly it may not?


Good premise.

So, we need to rely on government to... keep itself... from taking away our rights.

Oh.
 
2014-02-21 05:20:36 PM

spawn73: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste:

Thank you.  It sounds like the oppo leaders really might be ousted.  They'll need to be careful: the protestors are wanting significantly more results than they've received so far.  I can't say I blame them.  Yanukovych remaining in power has to be an utter defeat.

I don't really get that sentiment.

There'll be a broad coalition government, constitution rolled back to 2004, and almost immediate elections.


Nope, elections by Dec 2014 so only about 2 months before the scheduled ones.  they're also refusing that he will remain President after being responsible for 77 dead and hundreds wounded.  And, honestly, I can't blame them but I also think they need to start somewhere.  I guess that somewhere needs to be his removal.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's dead within 2 weeks.  Just a matter of who it is that gets him.
 
2014-02-21 05:22:10 PM
:(
 
2014-02-21 05:30:17 PM

BgJonson79: And move to what?


The only useful socioeconomic equilibrium comes when ideas, capital and technology flow freely and with the best interests of the greater good.  Tinpot wankers, greedheads and macaroni hat dictator weenies are not only odious, they are useless to the point of no longer being feasible.  They're the log in the road.
 
2014-02-21 05:32:29 PM

BgJonson79: First Amendment: hate speech
Second Amendment: gun-free zones


Maybe they should open gun free zones in the free speech zones and then let rich people shoot at the people stupid enough to sit there.
 
2014-02-21 05:33:33 PM

sendtodave: BgJonson79: Because gov't always takes what it hasn't been told explicitly it may not?

Good premise.

So, we need to rely on government to... keep itself... from taking away our rights.

Oh.


Like Democracy, there are huge issues with the system, but it is the best option we have.
 
2014-02-21 05:33:58 PM

danzak: Unfortunately, this ain't over by a long shot.  I'm torn - Yanukovych needs to face justice for his actions but you also need to start somewhere.  Maidan protesters are not accepting the deal struck today and are threatening further actions tomorrow basically making any peaceful end to this impossible.  I'm watching the stream now and they're bringing those that died to the Maidan to pay respects.  The speeches have been taking a much nastier tone over the last 24 hours as well (expected).  There's also a good chance they will lose any international support if they were to go on the offensive now but I doubt they give 2 shiats about that.  I just don't know.

Here is a write up from a acquaintance of mine in Kyiv:


Thanks for that. I guess it's wait and see now. Keep in mind that it's quite possible the most vocal protesters at that moment were the most extreme ones. If they can't muster wide support for their position of rejecting the compromise, they won't be able to keep things going for long. I can't say I'm surprised by the Weeners. They just watched a bunch of their fellow protesters get killed. That doesn't put people in a mood to forgive and forget.
 
2014-02-21 05:36:07 PM

Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.


Why?
 
2014-02-21 05:37:52 PM

dywed88: Like Democracy, there are huge issues with the system, but it is the best option we have.


No, the best option we have is to be honest about the empirical evidence that any "One True Way™" method of socioeconomic management is like trying to build a car with either just an engine, just brakes or just a comfy interior, and largely failures.  Isms, all isms, all "cracies" are apply as needed.  Not monothematic, one band aid covers all booboos solution to all things.  Never were.  That's the con.
 
2014-02-21 05:38:49 PM

LewDux: Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.


Why?


History.
 
2014-02-21 05:45:44 PM

Kittypie070: LewDux: Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.

Why?

History.


It's clearly Slavic language. Genetically "in what is now Polish there is continuity of certain genetic lines, at least from the Roman period to the present", "population of the Middle Ages shared the largest number of informative haplotypes shared with the population of modern Belarus, Ukraine and Bulgaria"
 
2014-02-21 05:46:42 PM
You're forgiven
 
2014-02-21 05:49:35 PM
Bored as hell, recheckin' the thread
Just what I thought: It got delet-ed
But I gotta thank the mods for stiflin' the holla,
Even though mine wasn't impropa

Got a secret message, amidst the plinkin'
So I spit another rhyme, cuz it got me thinkin'
So I took a couple screens of what was so naughty
It was all just so funny had me screamin' "O LAWDY"

Went to the desk laughing like mad
Had to share my story because it was so rad
Couldn't let it go, felt it'd be remiss
There's a moral to this story and it's something like this:
   S'what happens talkin' shi*,

Wouldn't you know?
I made a sweet comment
But it had to go.

I almost jumped up,
and started to shout..
But I got a secret message
That put the fire out.

Cuz the threads on Fark are always hard
Hope I don't get hammered for playing this card
Wouldn't be mad cuz it'd be legit
Cuz that's what happens when you start talkin' shiat*.

/seriously, though, no hammer would be tight like a tiger.
//THIS IS MY LEGACY
 
2014-02-21 05:50:08 PM

danzak: spawn73: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste:

Thank you.  It sounds like the oppo leaders really might be ousted.  They'll need to be careful: the protestors are wanting significantly more results than they've received so far.  I can't say I blame them.  Yanukovych remaining in power has to be an utter defeat.

I don't really get that sentiment.

There'll be a broad coalition government, constitution rolled back to 2004, and almost immediate elections.

Nope, elections by Dec 2014 so only about 2 months before the scheduled ones.  they're also refusing that he will remain President after being responsible for 77 dead and hundreds wounded.  And, honestly, I can't blame them but I also think they need to start somewhere.  I guess that somewhere needs to be his removal.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's dead within 2 weeks.  Just a matter of who it is that gets him.


The exact wording is that elections should be held as soon as possible, with december 2014 being the latest.

For a democratic process to work, and for a legitimate government to be elected, you first need to have the constitution in place, figure out who is running for parliament, and giving the candidates time to campaign as to let the public know who they're casting their votes for.

I don't know that he is responsible. I should think that would be the a matter for the courts after the "new" constitution is in place and a new parliament elected.


Dunno what the over under is for him being alive. If he resigns now, I could see mob rule and him being lynched since he then has no control. If he doesn't resign, I could see mob rule and him being lynched as well.

Perhaps the wisest for him would be to just play the martyr card and go in exile in Moscow.
 
2014-02-21 05:50:52 PM

bunner: dywed88: Like Democracy, there are huge issues with the system, but it is the best option we have.

No, the best option we have is to be honest about the empirical evidence that any "One True Way™" method of socioeconomic management is like trying to build a car with either just an engine, just brakes or just a comfy interior, and largely failures.  Isms, all isms, all "cracies" are apply as needed.  Not monothematic, one band aid covers all booboos solution to all things.  Never were.  That's the con.


Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.

A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.

It certainly isn't guaranteed that any government will protect your rights, but it is far better than any other option.

Now, there are times and places where a functional democratic government is not feasible for a variety of reasons. They have to find an alternative.

As for the original post, it was paraphrasing a famous quote.
 
2014-02-21 05:57:10 PM
The exact wording is that elections should be held as soon as possible, with december 2014 being the latest.

For a democratic process to work, and for a legitimate government to be elected, you first need to have the constitution in place, figure out who is running for parliament, and giving the candidates time to campaign as to let the public know who they're casting their votes for.

I don't know that he is responsible. I should think that would be the a matter for the courts after the "new" constitution is in place and a new parliament elected.


Right, but that is unacceptable to the protesters - maybe having to wait to Dec for new elections with a Unity gov't in temporarily which may be powerless again if the PoR reunite and Yanukovych remaining President for that time.
I think they've referred back to the Constitution from 2004, are they intending to rewrite it?
I don't think he can escape to Moscow, I think it's just as likely that Putin may have him killed.
 
2014-02-21 05:58:59 PM
Berkut in Dnipropetrowsk hand over the outfit to protesters

pbs.twimg.com

FYI, location of Dnipropetrowsk:

upload.wikimedia.org

Lenin monuments went down in Dnipropetrowsk, Poltava, Pryluky, Slavuta, Bila Tserkva...
 
2014-02-21 05:59:58 PM

dywed88: Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.


Much like with a government.

dywed88: A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.


Call me when we have one.

dywed88: It certainly isn't guaranteed that any government will protect your rights, but it is far better than any other option.


That's called whistling pat the graveyard.

I get the paraphrase but if change is the essence of civilization, and if you look back to post Roman monasteries where the candle of knowledge flickered and sputtered for 600 years, stasis is a piss poor alternative to risk.  And until the 1% put the capital back into play here, instead of moving shop to Asia so they can get - isn't this precious - more capital, cheaper, all this dusty book, How things work" malarkey is last weeks papers, exists in a vacuum of dated, no longer applied constructs and a piss up a rope.  In other words, if you get off the bus at the brick wall in the road and say "this is where the road ends", it does.  Progress has reached a bottleneck and it's been installed by the very people who insist that all the sh*t we've been using and/or chained to since Bologna opened a global marketplace - still works fine.  We've learned what doesn't work.  And it's time to come back from the monkey bars and start using what we've learned about what does.
 
2014-02-21 06:00:50 PM

traylor: Berkut in Dnipropetrowsk hand over the outfit to protesters


Thanks, hadn't seen that one.  Nice pic.
 
2014-02-21 06:04:52 PM

danielscissorhands: You know who else liked telling people to sign peace agreements...

.[homepage.eircom.net image 272x350]


But he didn't want the Czechoslovakia crisis to end with an agreement, he wanted a quick war and was pissed off about how things turned out.
 
2014-02-21 06:05:42 PM
You wanna know what built the world that still stands upon he ruins of the industrial revolution?  The robber barons were smart enough to put it back into play.  This crop of "gimmie über alles" dipsh*ts who think history is black and white sitcoms are going to get eaten alive when the etch a sketch gets shaken.  I, for one, will not be terribly arsed up about it when they do.
 
2014-02-21 06:07:36 PM

bunner: Behind every vote, every desk in every bureaucracy, every bank note and wealthy man's gates are a bunch of people who, by laws of their own making, are allowed to shoot you if you don't play along with the interests of the people who have most of the desks, bank notes, vest pocketed bureaucrats and properties that need gates.

The rule of law has always been nothing more than codified constructs wherein, depending on how many people you can get to yell "BULLSH*T!" at once, you're fair game.  Criminal law, in it's truest sense, is a different box of cookies but has been subverted to the point where they aim the guns at the wrong people half the time, anyhow.

I am grateful for the greed mongers stripping the paint off the wall, the erosion of any pretense to leadership that political power has been exposed to by its own actions, and the internet.

Because the last one made the first two very obvious.  Now all we have to do is figure out how far we'll go to act on this information and divest ourselves of a now useless, archaic and violent system of governance and commerce that has nothing resembling a useful cost / benefits analysis in the post modern world.


I see you've been thinking a lot about this and have hurt yourself.
 
2014-02-21 06:13:27 PM

bunner: dywed88: Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.

Much like with a government.

dywed88: A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.

Call me when we have one.

dywed88: It certainly isn't guaranteed that any government will protect your rights, but it is far better than any other option.

That's called whistling pat the graveyard.

I get the paraphrase but if change is the essence of civilization, and if you look back to post Roman monasteries where the candle of knowledge flickered and sputtered for 600 years, stasis is a piss poor alternative to risk.  And until the 1% put the capital back into play here, instead of moving shop to Asia so they can get - isn't this precious - more capital, cheaper, all this dusty book, How things work" malarkey is last weeks papers, exists in a vacuum of dated, no longer applied constructs and a piss up a rope.  In other words, if you get off the bus at the brick wall in the road and say "this is where the road ends", it does.  Progress has reached a bottleneck and it's been installed by the very people who insist that all the sh*t we've been using and/or chained to since Bologna opened a global marketplace - still works fine.  We've learned what doesn't work.  And it's time to come back from the monkey bars and start using what we've learned about what does.


You can find functional Democratic governments throughout the developed world and many in the developing world. And, yes, they are the best at protecting the rights of most people. They are far from perfect, but better than pretty much any other government especially in the long term.

Care to provide an alternative?
 
2014-02-21 06:13:33 PM

Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.


Say what?
 
2014-02-21 06:19:29 PM
From Twitter:

What is the average IQ of a security agency that names its anti-terrorist operation "Boomerang"?

/looked it up, the Anti-Terrorist Center of the Ministry of Internal Affairs gave this name three days ago to an operation to clean up Maidan
 
2014-02-21 06:23:41 PM

dywed88: Care to provide an alternative?


Empiricism.

Education.

Actual free trade, not just the sort that benefits the wealthy.

Global legal constructs deigned to server humanity,not feudal lords.  We're all moved in, now.  Saber rattling and economic pissing matches are like watching your fat assed uncle Bert shout 9 beer malarkey and put a lampshade on at Christmas.  It's beyond a parody.  I'll give a sh*t about the technological great leap forward when it stops being a toolkit for dime store, 17th c. world leader pretends with a new box of hammers to hit people with.  Protection?  Who protects the homeless people shot by cops cause "hey, he pissed me off"?  Who protects the people trying to earn a living in a culture that demands feudal fealty to corporate whorehouses whose only mission is finding new gravy to work around the vomit they're spewing in their gluttony?  Who protects us from an oligarchy that can circumvent any legality with the wave of a quarterly report?  Functionality isn't measured by what you settle for.
 
2014-02-21 06:25:33 PM
to SERVE
 
2014-02-21 06:28:38 PM
dywed88
Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.
A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.


That's nothing but magical thinking. Power comes from strength. Even if you have your precious "functional democracy", your political decisions will be ignored if you have no strength- whether military, economic, ideological, or some other form. With "democracy" but no popular strength, the result is what we see today in the United States- a slow descent into a sort of quasi-capitalist neo-feudalism.
 
2014-02-21 06:29:41 PM

RanDomino: That's nothing but magical thinking. Power comes from strength. Even if you have your precious "functional democracy", your political decisions will be ignored if you have no strength- whether military, economic, ideological, or some other form. With "democracy" but no popular strength, the result is what we see today in the United States- a slow descent into a sort of quasi-capitalist neo-feudalism.


This.
 
2014-02-21 06:32:00 PM

RanDomino: dywed88
Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.
A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.

That's nothing but magical thinking. Power comes from strength. Even if you have your precious "functional democracy", your political decisions will be ignored if you have no strength- whether military, economic, ideological, or some other form. With "democracy" but no popular strength, the result is what we see today in the United States- a slow descent into a sort of quasi-capitalist neo-feudalism.


Unlike in all other political systems, there things stay the same for centuries
 
2014-02-21 06:33:39 PM
It's this simple.  Until we value the guy who can teach you good and useful things over the guy who can "kick your f*ckin' ass, dude!", we're gonna sit here eating crumbs and ducking around a corner of a side street when the hubris besotted mongoloids we DO value come down the street.  Reason over rhetoric, science over violence, full bellies over gold.  Not until.  And the rest is a piss up a rope.
 
2014-02-21 06:43:05 PM
She's getting better.

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-02-21 06:45:43 PM

bunner: dywed88: Care to provide an alternative?

Empiricism.

Education.

Actual free trade, not just the sort that benefits the wealthy.

Global legal constructs deigned to server humanity,not feudal lords.  We're all moved in, now.  Saber rattling and economic pissing matches are like watching your fat assed uncle Bert shout 9 beer malarkey and put a lampshade on at Christmas.  It's beyond a parody.  I'll give a sh*t about the technological great leap forward when it stops being a toolkit for dime store, 17th c. world leader pretends with a new box of hammers to hit people with.  Protection?  Who protects the homeless people shot by cops cause "hey, he pissed me off"?  Who protects the people trying to earn a living in a culture that demands feudal fealty to corporate whorehouses whose only mission is finding new gravy to work around the vomit they're spewing in their gluttony?  Who protects us from an oligarchy that can circumvent any legality with the wave of a quarterly report?  Functionality isn't measured by what you settle for.


So, no.
 
2014-02-21 06:46:06 PM
There was anti-Yanukovich protest in Kharkiv last night. YouTube

Not a big one, but a good start. It shows that the country isn't that divided.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-02-21 06:47:52 PM

zimbomba63: Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.
DURP

Say what?


I admitted I was incorrect, all right?
 
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