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(Telegraph)   The "deal" reached in Ukraine was helped along by a negotiating tactic more familiar to mob bosses than diplomats as Polish foreign minister is caught on tape telling opposition leaders "sign this deal or you will all die"   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 268
    More: Scary, Leader of the Opposition, Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Radek Sikorski, snap elections, paramilitary, signing ceremony  
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8175 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Feb 2014 at 2:00 PM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-21 02:40:22 PM

midigod: There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke


Plus of course women aren't allowed to vote and blacks are considered property.
 
2014-02-21 02:43:20 PM
Why do mob bosses come before diplomats?
 
2014-02-21 02:43:24 PM
The Polish navy might send in their submarine fleet.
 
2014-02-21 02:44:00 PM

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Because the new tactic is to gather in mass in front of the world media thus making the government you're protesting against look bad/weak by not appeasing the protesters or make the government look even worse by killing all the protesters.  It's a very easy and effective way to drag the rest of the world in and generally if the protests are organized and they barricade in the square then the rest of the world will likely side with "peaceful" protesters.  The rest of the world likely wouldn't side with the protesters if they, "send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications "

Either way the protesters get at least some of what they want even if it costs their lives.
 
2014-02-21 02:45:09 PM

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


For one thing, protests aren't inherently military operations initially even if they adopt some principles and tactics.  Your chief goal is PR purposes and you gain the most benefit for PR by consolidating numbers to make your movement look large and diverse which brings credibility. Therefore focusing forces on a large central area (preferably with some national significance) is seen as the best way to achieve this goal rather than insurgency tactics which focus on a specific result, which while positive effects to your campaign, can be spun by the governmental forces as terrorism.
 
2014-02-21 02:47:01 PM
You know who else liked telling people to sign peace agreements...

.homepage.eircom.net
 
2014-02-21 02:47:15 PM
Why don't they just send Yanukovych and one of the opposition leaders into Thunderdome to see who is the winner?  I'd enjoy watching Vitali Klitschko uppercut him into outer space.
 
2014-02-21 02:48:04 PM
Behind every vote, every desk in every bureaucracy, every bank note and wealthy man's gates are a bunch of people who, by laws of their own making, are allowed to shoot you if you don't play along with the interests of the people who have most of the desks, bank notes, vest pocketed bureaucrats and properties that need gates.

The rule of law has always been nothing more than codified constructs wherein, depending on how many people you can get to yell "BULLSH*T!" at once, you're fair game.  Criminal law, in it's truest sense, is a different box of cookies but has been subverted to the point where they aim the guns at the wrong people half the time, anyhow.

I am grateful for the greed mongers stripping the paint off the wall, the erosion of any pretense to leadership that political power has been exposed to by its own actions, and the internet.

Because the last one made the first two very obvious.  Now all we have to do is figure out how far we'll go to act on this information and divest ourselves of a now useless, archaic and violent system of governance and commerce that has nothing resembling a useful cost / benefits analysis in the post modern world.
 
2014-02-21 02:48:32 PM

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


It isn't about fighting a military action, it is about the media.

You know how the North won the Vietnam War and beat the US? By winning the media war. Sure a given operation may cost them 10 or 20 times as many men as it did the US, but every US casualty dealt a blow to the public support for the war.

Standing in a square in defiance of the government and having the world watch a brutal crackdown would help them. A series of terrorist attacks against the government would get them roasted in the world media and open the door wide for Russia and others to send "police" to assist with little anyone can say about it.
 
2014-02-21 02:50:17 PM

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


Restore it?  Absolutely!  First though, tell us where/when it seemingly was lost, so we know where to begin our search.
 
2014-02-21 02:51:06 PM

Magorn: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Our Ukrainian Farker had said in a recent thread that most opposition leaders wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko since she really WAS  a crook (and issued a no compromise ..EVER manifesto from prison that did nothing to clam the violence yesterday)   so why DID they vote to free her today?


Because whether they cared about her or not, they can point to a real tangible concession by the government.
 
2014-02-21 02:54:20 PM

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


The liberty to ban Muslims from the country/state? The right to own another person as your property?
 
2014-02-21 02:56:10 PM
We would rather die on our feet than live on our knees!
 
2014-02-21 02:56:18 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Restore it?  Absolutely!  First though, tell us where/when it seemingly was lost, so we know where to begin our search.


boingboing.net

siliconangle.com

www.ccdominoes.com
www.hurriyetdailynews.com
 
2014-02-21 03:04:38 PM

geoduck42: midigod: There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke

Plus of course women aren't allowed to vote and blacks are considered property.


No one of any race should be considered property. Women not voting....ehhh.
 
2014-02-21 03:09:30 PM
Hey, I wasn't the one comparing a Polish diplomat who was trying to save lives to Hitler.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-21 03:09:45 PM

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Because every government at least CLAIMS the consent of the governed as the basis for its legitimacy. And every government to have ANY authority has to be able to at least "keep the peace".
  The mass protest is a visible way  to show that consent has been withdrawn and challenge the government's basic legitimacy by disrupting the peace by mass civil disobedience.

Once a protest reaches a certain critical mass  the government has to at least appear to give concessions to the protesters.  With two notable Sino-Soviet exceptions, you simply cannot just roll tanks into the square and kill everyone and remain in power at that point
 
2014-02-21 03:10:23 PM
Unfortunately, this ain't over by a long shot.  I'm torn - Yanukovych needs to face justice for his actions but you also need to start somewhere.  Maidan protesters are not accepting the deal struck today and are threatening further actions tomorrow basically making any peaceful end to this impossible.  I'm watching the stream now and they're bringing those that died to the Maidan to pay respects.  The speeches have been taking a much nastier tone over the last 24 hours as well (expected).  There's also a good chance they will lose any international support if they were to go on the offensive now but I doubt they give 2 shiats about that.  I just don't know.

Here is a write up from a acquaintance of mine in Kyiv:

Mychailo Wynnyckyj
Extremely tense and emotional events unfolding on Maidan tonight. According to the announced plan for tonight, a funeral service for the men who lost their lives yesterday in battles against the regime was supposed to be held. The three opposition party leaders (Yatseniuk, Klitschko, Tiahnybok), Poroshenko and other politicians were invited onto the stage together with priests. The crowd (40-50 thousand people) whistled at them, and demanded explanations regarding today's "deal" with Yanukovych. Most people in the crowd are, to put it mildly, not happy that an agreement was signed with the person they see as responsible for 77 dead and several hundred injured civilians. The funeral service was interrupted when one of the coffins was brought directly to the front of the stage during Klitschko's speech, and the crowd began shouting "who will answer for this?!". Then a "Sotnia" (unit) commander who had personally fought with riot police during the past days, forced his way onto the stage. His short emotional speech, during which he stressed that his unit was very well armed, ended with an ultimatum to the opposition leaders: either force the President's resignation by 10 am tomorrow, and renounce your deal with Yanukovych (according to which an election is scheduled for 10 months from now), or this commander's Sotnia will advance ("storm") the government quarter. Dmytro Yarosh from the Right Sector then came onto the stage and proclaimed essentially the same thing. It should be noted that this morning, over 1000 Interior Ministry troops were withdrawn from the government quarter, and this afternoon those troops who were from southern Ukraine were transported home. However, significant numbers of well armed government troops remain inside the Presidential Administration and Cabinet of Ministers buildings. It is now clear that the opposition's "negotiations" are not acceptable to Maidan, and the political leaders are NOT in control. Heaven help us, but I feel we're in for more bloodshed - soon.
 
2014-02-21 03:16:11 PM

KellyX: Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?

Why not just firebomb the parliament building and blame it on Poland?


Or sink a Ukrainian navy ship and blame it on Spain.
 
2014-02-21 03:23:19 PM
I'd bet money on "civil war" at this point, and that it will be a multi-year conflict.

I hope there isnt a civil war, but at this sums up my thoughts at this point in time  25.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-02-21 03:32:26 PM
farm8.staticflickr.com

"Betrayed by Europe"
 
2014-02-21 03:38:23 PM

Begoggle: The Polish navy might send in their submarine fleet.


Great.  They can say hello to the Italian surface fleet.
 
2014-02-21 03:40:31 PM

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Sun Tzu says "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
 
2014-02-21 03:46:05 PM

PC LOAD LETTER: LewDux: Obvious proof that snipers were Polish Nato snipers. Also Hitler

I read that as Polish Potato Snipers. Twice.


I read it as Polish natto snipers but I am having teriyaki for lunch.

/natto snipers should be banned by the Geneva Conventions
 
2014-02-21 03:48:39 PM
Are all of these russian/polish type people considered normal whites?

I want to hate them all but I'm not quite sure how to classify them.
 
2014-02-21 03:49:59 PM
Subby sounds like an adolescent, biologically unable to distinguish between a predictive warning of probable consequences and a "mean threat."
 
2014-02-21 03:50:17 PM
Alphakronik
When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

The State depends on a monopoly of force and absolute obedience to its will, right or wrong and however decided (whether in a democracy or dictatorship or whatever), with the threat of guaranteed punishment for disobedience. By rejecting the authority of the State and then successfully showing it to be incapable of enforcing its demands, a crisis can be triggered.  So basically what Magorn said.
 
2014-02-21 03:51:28 PM

I Like Shiny Things: Are all of these russian/polish type people considered normal whites?

I want to hate them all but I'm not quite sure how to classify them.


www.blackbluedog.com
 
rpl
2014-02-21 03:52:17 PM

uncoveror: This may be a trick to get the rebels to lay down their arms so the army will meet less resistance when Yanukovych sends them in the army anyway.

He will retain power if the army still obeys him, but is toast if at least half of the army turns against him when he orders them to kill civilians.


The Ukrainian army won't do jack; their mission statement strictly prohibits any internal action. I doubt Yanuk is going to try anything beyond what we've seen in the past few days, if only because I'm pretty sure he'd shown us all he's got.
 
2014-02-21 03:53:11 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0


You mean the GOP would be ok with disenfranchising black voters?

I think not!
 
2014-02-21 03:56:24 PM

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


Except Constitution 1.0 didn't have the Bill of Rights add-on. Which is why the GOP doesn't want to roll back to 1.0. They like the 2nd Amendment module too much.
 
2014-02-21 03:58:35 PM

I Like Shiny Things: Are all of these russian/polish type people considered normal whites?

I want to hate them all but I'm not quite sure how to classify them.


They are Slavs, so feel free to hate them.
 
2014-02-21 03:59:27 PM

danzak: Unfortunately, this ain't over by a long shot.  I'm torn - Yanukovych needs to face justice for his actions but you also need to start somewhere.  Maidan protesters are not accepting the deal struck today and are threatening further actions tomorrow basically making any peaceful end to this impossible.  I'm watching the stream now and they're bringing those that died to the Maidan to pay respects.  The speeches have been taking a much nastier tone over the last 24 hours as well (expected).  There's also a good chance they will lose any international support if they were to go on the offensive now but I doubt they give 2 shiats about that.  I just don't know.

Here is a write up from a acquaintance of mine in Kyiv:

Mychailo Wynnyckyj
Extremely tense and emotional events unfolding on Maidan tonight. According to the announced plan for tonight, a funeral service for the men who lost their lives yesterday in battles against the regime was supposed to be held. The three opposition party leaders (Yatseniuk, Klitschko, Tiahnybok), Poroshenko and other politicians were invited onto the stage together with priests. The crowd (40-50 thousand people) whistled at them, and demanded explanations regarding today's "deal" with Yanukovych. Most people in the crowd are, to put it mildly, not happy that an agreement was signed with the person they see as responsible for 77 dead and several hundred injured civilians. The funeral service was interrupted when one of the coffins was brought directly to the front of the stage during Klitschko's speech, and the crowd began shouting "who will answer for this?!". Then a "Sotnia" (unit) commander who had personally fought with riot police during the past days, forced his way onto the stage. His short emotional speech, during which he stressed that his unit was very well armed, ended with an ultimatum to the opposition leaders: either force the President's resignation by 10 am tomorrow, and renounce your deal with Yanukovych (according to whi ...


Thank you.  It sounds like the oppo leaders really might be ousted.  They'll need to be careful: the protestors are wanting significantly more results than they've received so far.  I can't say I blame them.  Yanukovych remaining in power has to be an utter defeat.
 
2014-02-21 04:02:01 PM
The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.
 
2014-02-21 04:04:15 PM
Right about now, I'm thanking my lucky stars that we live in a safe part of the world, where the people aren't rebelling against their gov't, requiring deadly force.

I've often wondered how that works out for the people in the military and police.
(I'm serious about this, bare with me)

Those folks, while they work for the government, are supposed to protect the people.  What happens when you are suddenly ordered by your government to open fire on those people?  Aren't the odds tremendously good that the person you shoot could be a friend or relative?  Doesn't that create a rather massive conflict of interest?

Even someplace like best Korea...  If the military was suddenly set loose on it's people, at what point would they simply say "fark that!" and refuse?  Worse yet, turn on their masters?
 
2014-02-21 04:06:39 PM

Deep Contact: KellyX: Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?

Why not just firebomb the parliament building and blame it on Poland?

Or sink a Ukrainian navy ship and blame it on Spain.


You blame the parliament fire on Dutch communists to sieze control of the government.

Blaming Spain for your exploding ships and having your soldiers dress up as Poles and attack you are to justify invasions.
 
2014-02-21 04:07:20 PM
Who cares
 
2014-02-21 04:09:06 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: Who cares


History cares.  And history will eat us all, some sooner than others.  It's why we keep tabs on it.
 
2014-02-21 04:11:41 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.


Too bad he quit figure skating due to an injury.
 
2014-02-21 04:15:12 PM

stevetherobot: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

Except Constitution 1.0 didn't have the Bill of Rights add-on. Which is why the GOP doesn't want to roll back to 1.0. They like the 2nd Amendment module too much.


My question is, is the "version 1.0" the original contitution for the United States (the Articles of Confederation) or the sequal, named the Constitution (which could also be viewed as constitution 2.0)?
 
2014-02-21 04:20:50 PM

Magorn: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Our Ukrainian Farker had said in a recent thread that most opposition leaders wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko since she really WAS  a crook (and issued a no compromise ..EVER manifesto from prison that did nothing to clam the violence yesterday)   so why DID they vote to free her today?


Well, if they don't even like her, why not release her?

Makes them look willing to compromise, by rolling back a Russian style law that allows you to put your political opponents in jail for random reasons.

The law will of course also apply to the current PM, which is an extra bonus for him if he looses the next election.
 
2014-02-21 04:24:54 PM

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


From the original:  Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

Yeah, let's go back to that.
 
2014-02-21 04:24:59 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.


Especially since this afternoon 8 people were convicted in Russia for protesting outside Putin's third inauguration in May 2012 and can face up to 10yrs in prison.

Sentencing is being delayed until Monday. The Olympics close on Sunday.

200 people protesting outside the court have been arrested.

:-(
 
2014-02-21 04:25:28 PM

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


They took over most government offices, and made several attempts at taking over the parliament as well.

Also, what war?
 
2014-02-21 04:25:32 PM

vpb: Magorn: To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders

They knew that was a possibility going in.

Besides, Ceausescu tried that and he ended up between a wall and a firing squad.


"Securitatea" or secret police did listen to Ceausescu for a few days (revolution started in Timisoara around 16-17 and only spread to Bucharest on 21st and 22nd). Even in Bucharest when the protesters went to the TV station (3 miles away from where I lived) and the Presidential palace, there was a firefight during that night and a little the next day. Unless you want to believe the conspiracy theory that nobody from Ceausescu's side fired guns and that it was all gunshot sounds broadcasted over megaphones and the protestors just shot themselves. (Yes, some Romanians believe that).
 
2014-02-21 04:26:40 PM

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


No, goofus, he means the Constitution without those pesky amendments, especially the 13th and 14th. The one that said "non-free" persons counted as 3/5 for allocating Congressional representation. Y'know, Ron Paul's Constitution.
 
2014-02-21 04:38:39 PM

CygnusDarius: Well... Wow. I never thought just how much all politicians of the world look alike, in general.

/Then again
//I live in Mexico
///I've seen some shiat



georgeorwell.blog.com


"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
 
2014-02-21 04:43:57 PM

midigod: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke


With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.  We can try to squeeze other stuff in under them, like "privacy."

Without Bill of Rights:  You have rights.  The government doesn't define what they are.

Hmm.
 
2014-02-21 04:44:40 PM
Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste:

Thank you.  It sounds like the oppo leaders really might be ousted.  They'll need to be careful: the protestors are wanting significantly more results than they've received so far.  I can't say I blame them.  Yanukovych remaining in power has to be an utter defeat.

I don't really get that sentiment.

There'll be a broad coalition government, constitution rolled back to 2004, and almost immediate elections.

With the constitution rollback, he has lost his special presidential powers. Now then, with the EU watching the election like hawks, you'll also have a fair election (or if an unfair one, one that is clearly unfair). Just don't vote for the farking dude.

And if he does get elected, they'll just have to respect the outcome of a democratic election.

Anyhow, given the nature of democracy, maybe the opposition should try to be the ones who seem resonable, rather than wanting to fight regardless of concessions.
 
2014-02-21 04:50:10 PM
So, you say Slavic government is back to normal, Comrades?
 
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