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(Telegraph)   The "deal" reached in Ukraine was helped along by a negotiating tactic more familiar to mob bosses than diplomats as Polish foreign minister is caught on tape telling opposition leaders "sign this deal or you will all die"   (telegraph.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Scary, Leader of the Opposition, Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Radek Sikorski, snap elections, paramilitary, signing ceremony  
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8235 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Feb 2014 at 2:00 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



268 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-02-21 05:43:14 AM  
sorry, I was wrong

Present-day Slavic people are classified into East Slavic (chiefly Belarusians, Russians and Ukrainians), West Slavic (chiefly Czechs, Poles, Slovaks and Wends, or Sorbs), and South Slavic (chiefly Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs and Slovenes)

I stand corrected
 
2014-02-21 12:11:56 PM  
More surprises.
Oh, be still, my heart.
 
2014-02-21 12:18:11 PM  

snocone: More surprises.
Oh, be still, my heart.


To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-21 12:23:25 PM  

Magorn: To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders


They knew that was a possibility going in.

Besides, Ceausescu tried that and he ended up between a wall and a firing squad.
 
2014-02-21 12:29:45 PM  

Magorn: snocone: More surprises.
Oh, be still, my heart.

To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders


Martial law would pretty much guarantee civil war
 
2014-02-21 12:41:31 PM  

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: Magorn: snocone: More surprises.
Oh, be still, my heart.

To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders

Martial law would pretty much guarantee civil war


Something that Poland, who shares a border with Ukraine, would have a deeply vested interest in avoiding.  While I doubt there is ANY love lost between Russia and Poland, Poland also knows a Ukraine in turmoil is very bad news for them
 
2014-02-21 01:18:37 PM  
Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.
 
2014-02-21 01:43:35 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.


Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0
 
2014-02-21 01:47:04 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.


Our Ukrainian Farker had said in a recent thread that most opposition leaders wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko since she really WAS  a crook (and issued a no compromise ..EVER manifesto from prison that did nothing to clam the violence yesterday)   so why DID they vote to free her today?
 
2014-02-21 02:01:47 PM  
"Than."
 
2014-02-21 02:01:48 PM  

Magorn: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Our Ukrainian Farker had said in a recent thread that most opposition leaders wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko since she really WAS  a crook (and issued a no compromise ..EVER manifesto from prison that did nothing to clam the violence yesterday)   so why DID they vote to free her today?


If you can't imprison your opposition, better to have opposition that you can buy off.
 
2014-02-21 02:02:54 PM  
Obvious proof that snipers were Polish Nato snipers. Also Hitler
 
2014-02-21 02:04:02 PM  
I'm not sure that was a threat or just a lucid telling of truth.
 
2014-02-21 02:04:18 PM  

LewDux: Obvious proof that snipers were Polish Nato snipers. Also Hitler


I read that as Polish Potato Snipers. Twice.
 
2014-02-21 02:04:45 PM  
blogs.dixcdn.com
 
2014-02-21 02:06:27 PM  
Well they weren't wrong.
 
2014-02-21 02:10:05 PM  

Magorn: To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.


Yea, from what I read it was actually a warning that Yanukovich was definitely going to implement martial law and probably planning on killing them if they didn't sign and bring the situation under control.

What's more concerning is that there are several quotes from powerful people on Yanukovich's side which basically say that there won't be any peace until the country splits in two.
 
2014-02-21 02:10:12 PM  

Magorn: so why DID they vote to free her today?



Because she's kinda hot?
 
2014-02-21 02:10:34 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0


you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.
 
2014-02-21 02:10:54 PM  

Magorn: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Our Ukrainian Farker had said in a recent thread that most opposition leaders wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko since she really WAS  a crook (and issued a no compromise ..EVER manifesto from prison that did nothing to clam the violence yesterday)   so why DID they vote to free her today?


I just want her to go back to her old Princess Leia haircut.
 
2014-02-21 02:12:50 PM  
Based on how it was said, it sounded more like a warning than a threat.
 
2014-02-21 02:14:36 PM  
Well... Wow. I never thought just how much all politicians of the world look alike, in general.

/Then again
//I live in Mexico
///I've seen some shiat
 
2014-02-21 02:15:53 PM  
Men of the Cloth standing between armed riot police and the People ..

www.themalaymailonline.com

.. let's see you go do that ..
 
2014-02-21 02:15:56 PM  

Magorn: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Our Ukrainian Farker had said in a recent thread that most opposition leaders wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko since she really WAS  a crook (and issued a no compromise ..EVER manifesto from prison that did nothing to clam the violence yesterday)   so why DID they vote to free her today?


Some protesters are big fans
 
2014-02-21 02:15:57 PM  

vpb: Magorn: To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders

They knew that was a possibility going in.

Besides, Ceausescu tried that and he ended up  between a wall and a firing squad.

as a bowl of Puppy Ceausescu.
 
2014-02-21 02:17:11 PM  
Yanukovych and the Ukrainian government began to operate what they called "The Operation": They would select opposition members and then threaten to kill them if they signed the so-called peace treaty. Four months later they started another operation which they called "The Other Operation". In this racket they selected another opposition member and threatened not to kill him if he didn't sign. One month later they hit upon "The Other Other Operation". In this the opposition member was threatened that if he didn't sign, they would kill him. This, for the Yanukovych, was the turning point.

/VIKTOR??
 
2014-02-21 02:18:02 PM  
I'm skeptical. Several of the parties involved in the Maidan movement see themselves as, or in fact are, descendents of WWII-era nationalist guerrillas. They hardly hesitated to start arming over the last few days. The military is apparently not political and there would probably be mass defections. They enjoy a strong popular base in much of the country's West. On the other hand, they would be going up against Russia, which is not a good idea right now.
 
2014-02-21 02:18:06 PM  
Also, I've a friend in Poland, so this stuff is pretty relevant.
 
2014-02-21 02:18:29 PM  

DamnYankees: Based on how it was said, it sounded more like a warning than a threat.


You in the barricades/listen to this:
There is noone coming to help you figgght
You're own your own/ You have no chance
Give up/ your guns or Die

/he wasn't wrong
//my kid's HS is doing Les Mis and he's been practicing a lot while the news was on so its hard not to see parallels
 
2014-02-21 02:19:19 PM  
The Polish foreign minister wasn't threatening the opposition, submitter, he was warning them what to expect next. There is a world of difference between threatening to hit someone with your car and warning them to get out of traffic.
 
2014-02-21 02:20:26 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: LewDux: Obvious proof that snipers were Polish Nato snipers. Also Hitler

I read that as Polish Potato Snipers. Twice.


To arms, men!

img.fark.net

img.fark.net
 
2014-02-21 02:20:45 PM  
CygnusDarius
Well... Wow. I never thought just how much all politicians of the world look alike, in general.

They look the same because they are the same.
 
2014-02-21 02:21:21 PM  
This may be a trick to get the rebels to lay down their arms so the army will meet less resistance when Yanukovych sends them in the army anyway.

He will retain power if the army still obeys him, but is toast if at least half of the army turns against him when he orders them to kill civilians.
 
2014-02-21 02:22:28 PM  
Polish Foriegn Minister:  "Sign this deal or you will all die.  And don't you 'forget' it."
 
2014-02-21 02:24:00 PM  
That sounds way more like a plea than a threat to me.
 
2014-02-21 02:26:56 PM  
Meet the new boss.
 
2014-02-21 02:27:03 PM  
Solidarność...
 
2014-02-21 02:28:11 PM  

Diocletian's Last Cabbage: Polish Foriegn Minister:  "Sign this deal or you will all die.  And don't you 'forget' it."


www.jotdown.es
He was simply making them an offer he couldn't refuse.
 
2014-02-21 02:29:21 PM  
I expected better language of diplomacy from Poland.
 
2014-02-21 02:29:35 PM  

Mister Buttons: PC LOAD LETTER: LewDux: Obvious proof that snipers were Polish Nato snipers. Also Hitler

I read that as Polish Potato Snipers. Twice.

To arms, men!


That would be standing on a wall naked throwing potatoes? Or prowling the vegetable isle in a Polish market? Making mean comments to a bag o' spuds?
 
2014-02-21 02:30:24 PM  

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke
 
2014-02-21 02:32:07 PM  
Curious to see if this holds...
 
2014-02-21 02:32:08 PM  
I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?
 
2014-02-21 02:34:23 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0


Wat?
 
2014-02-21 02:34:58 PM  
 
2014-02-21 02:36:44 PM  
i1182.photobucket.com
 
2014-02-21 02:36:58 PM  

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Because protest is designed to get the attention of oppressive rule and  demand redress, and not so much actual warfare.  If you want full tilt war, you have to look to military organizations, the preponderance of the Roman  Catholic church and corporate America.
 
2014-02-21 02:37:35 PM  

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Why not just firebomb the parliament building and blame it on Poland?
 
2014-02-21 02:37:48 PM  

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


Well, it would end all those first and second amendment arguments pretty quickly.
 
2014-02-21 02:39:48 PM  

Magorn: snocone: More surprises.
Oh, be still, my heart.

To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders


You forgot a parenthesis.  Here you go.    )
 
2014-02-21 02:40:22 PM  

midigod: There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke


Plus of course women aren't allowed to vote and blacks are considered property.
 
2014-02-21 02:43:20 PM  
Why do mob bosses come before diplomats?
 
2014-02-21 02:43:24 PM  
The Polish navy might send in their submarine fleet.
 
2014-02-21 02:44:00 PM  

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Because the new tactic is to gather in mass in front of the world media thus making the government you're protesting against look bad/weak by not appeasing the protesters or make the government look even worse by killing all the protesters.  It's a very easy and effective way to drag the rest of the world in and generally if the protests are organized and they barricade in the square then the rest of the world will likely side with "peaceful" protesters.  The rest of the world likely wouldn't side with the protesters if they, "send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications "

Either way the protesters get at least some of what they want even if it costs their lives.
 
2014-02-21 02:45:09 PM  

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


For one thing, protests aren't inherently military operations initially even if they adopt some principles and tactics.  Your chief goal is PR purposes and you gain the most benefit for PR by consolidating numbers to make your movement look large and diverse which brings credibility. Therefore focusing forces on a large central area (preferably with some national significance) is seen as the best way to achieve this goal rather than insurgency tactics which focus on a specific result, which while positive effects to your campaign, can be spun by the governmental forces as terrorism.
 
2014-02-21 02:47:01 PM  
You know who else liked telling people to sign peace agreements...

.homepage.eircom.net
 
2014-02-21 02:47:15 PM  
Why don't they just send Yanukovych and one of the opposition leaders into Thunderdome to see who is the winner?  I'd enjoy watching Vitali Klitschko uppercut him into outer space.
 
2014-02-21 02:48:04 PM  
Behind every vote, every desk in every bureaucracy, every bank note and wealthy man's gates are a bunch of people who, by laws of their own making, are allowed to shoot you if you don't play along with the interests of the people who have most of the desks, bank notes, vest pocketed bureaucrats and properties that need gates.

The rule of law has always been nothing more than codified constructs wherein, depending on how many people you can get to yell "BULLSH*T!" at once, you're fair game.  Criminal law, in it's truest sense, is a different box of cookies but has been subverted to the point where they aim the guns at the wrong people half the time, anyhow.

I am grateful for the greed mongers stripping the paint off the wall, the erosion of any pretense to leadership that political power has been exposed to by its own actions, and the internet.

Because the last one made the first two very obvious.  Now all we have to do is figure out how far we'll go to act on this information and divest ourselves of a now useless, archaic and violent system of governance and commerce that has nothing resembling a useful cost / benefits analysis in the post modern world.
 
2014-02-21 02:48:32 PM  

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


It isn't about fighting a military action, it is about the media.

You know how the North won the Vietnam War and beat the US? By winning the media war. Sure a given operation may cost them 10 or 20 times as many men as it did the US, but every US casualty dealt a blow to the public support for the war.

Standing in a square in defiance of the government and having the world watch a brutal crackdown would help them. A series of terrorist attacks against the government would get them roasted in the world media and open the door wide for Russia and others to send "police" to assist with little anyone can say about it.
 
2014-02-21 02:50:17 PM  

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


Restore it?  Absolutely!  First though, tell us where/when it seemingly was lost, so we know where to begin our search.
 
2014-02-21 02:51:06 PM  

Magorn: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Our Ukrainian Farker had said in a recent thread that most opposition leaders wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko since she really WAS  a crook (and issued a no compromise ..EVER manifesto from prison that did nothing to clam the violence yesterday)   so why DID they vote to free her today?


Because whether they cared about her or not, they can point to a real tangible concession by the government.
 
2014-02-21 02:54:20 PM  

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


The liberty to ban Muslims from the country/state? The right to own another person as your property?
 
2014-02-21 02:56:10 PM  
We would rather die on our feet than live on our knees!
 
2014-02-21 02:56:18 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Restore it?  Absolutely!  First though, tell us where/when it seemingly was lost, so we know where to begin our search.


boingboing.net

siliconangle.com

www.ccdominoes.com
www.hurriyetdailynews.com
 
2014-02-21 03:04:38 PM  

geoduck42: midigod: There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke

Plus of course women aren't allowed to vote and blacks are considered property.


No one of any race should be considered property. Women not voting....ehhh.
 
2014-02-21 03:09:30 PM  
Hey, I wasn't the one comparing a Polish diplomat who was trying to save lives to Hitler.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-21 03:09:45 PM  

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Because every government at least CLAIMS the consent of the governed as the basis for its legitimacy. And every government to have ANY authority has to be able to at least "keep the peace".
  The mass protest is a visible way  to show that consent has been withdrawn and challenge the government's basic legitimacy by disrupting the peace by mass civil disobedience.

Once a protest reaches a certain critical mass  the government has to at least appear to give concessions to the protesters.  With two notable Sino-Soviet exceptions, you simply cannot just roll tanks into the square and kill everyone and remain in power at that point
 
2014-02-21 03:10:23 PM  
Unfortunately, this ain't over by a long shot.  I'm torn - Yanukovych needs to face justice for his actions but you also need to start somewhere.  Maidan protesters are not accepting the deal struck today and are threatening further actions tomorrow basically making any peaceful end to this impossible.  I'm watching the stream now and they're bringing those that died to the Maidan to pay respects.  The speeches have been taking a much nastier tone over the last 24 hours as well (expected).  There's also a good chance they will lose any international support if they were to go on the offensive now but I doubt they give 2 shiats about that.  I just don't know.

Here is a write up from a acquaintance of mine in Kyiv:

Mychailo Wynnyckyj
Extremely tense and emotional events unfolding on Maidan tonight. According to the announced plan for tonight, a funeral service for the men who lost their lives yesterday in battles against the regime was supposed to be held. The three opposition party leaders (Yatseniuk, Klitschko, Tiahnybok), Poroshenko and other politicians were invited onto the stage together with priests. The crowd (40-50 thousand people) whistled at them, and demanded explanations regarding today's "deal" with Yanukovych. Most people in the crowd are, to put it mildly, not happy that an agreement was signed with the person they see as responsible for 77 dead and several hundred injured civilians. The funeral service was interrupted when one of the coffins was brought directly to the front of the stage during Klitschko's speech, and the crowd began shouting "who will answer for this?!". Then a "Sotnia" (unit) commander who had personally fought with riot police during the past days, forced his way onto the stage. His short emotional speech, during which he stressed that his unit was very well armed, ended with an ultimatum to the opposition leaders: either force the President's resignation by 10 am tomorrow, and renounce your deal with Yanukovych (according to which an election is scheduled for 10 months from now), or this commander's Sotnia will advance ("storm") the government quarter. Dmytro Yarosh from the Right Sector then came onto the stage and proclaimed essentially the same thing. It should be noted that this morning, over 1000 Interior Ministry troops were withdrawn from the government quarter, and this afternoon those troops who were from southern Ukraine were transported home. However, significant numbers of well armed government troops remain inside the Presidential Administration and Cabinet of Ministers buildings. It is now clear that the opposition's "negotiations" are not acceptable to Maidan, and the political leaders are NOT in control. Heaven help us, but I feel we're in for more bloodshed - soon.
 
2014-02-21 03:16:11 PM  

KellyX: Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?

Why not just firebomb the parliament building and blame it on Poland?


Or sink a Ukrainian navy ship and blame it on Spain.
 
2014-02-21 03:23:19 PM  
I'd bet money on "civil war" at this point, and that it will be a multi-year conflict.

I hope there isnt a civil war, but at this sums up my thoughts at this point in time  25.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-02-21 03:32:26 PM  
farm8.staticflickr.com

"Betrayed by Europe"
 
2014-02-21 03:38:23 PM  

Begoggle: The Polish navy might send in their submarine fleet.


Great.  They can say hello to the Italian surface fleet.
 
2014-02-21 03:40:31 PM  

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


Sun Tzu says "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
 
2014-02-21 03:46:05 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: LewDux: Obvious proof that snipers were Polish Nato snipers. Also Hitler

I read that as Polish Potato Snipers. Twice.


I read it as Polish natto snipers but I am having teriyaki for lunch.

/natto snipers should be banned by the Geneva Conventions
 
2014-02-21 03:48:39 PM  
Are all of these russian/polish type people considered normal whites?

I want to hate them all but I'm not quite sure how to classify them.
 
2014-02-21 03:49:59 PM  
Subby sounds like an adolescent, biologically unable to distinguish between a predictive warning of probable consequences and a "mean threat."
 
2014-02-21 03:50:17 PM  
Alphakronik
When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

The State depends on a monopoly of force and absolute obedience to its will, right or wrong and however decided (whether in a democracy or dictatorship or whatever), with the threat of guaranteed punishment for disobedience. By rejecting the authority of the State and then successfully showing it to be incapable of enforcing its demands, a crisis can be triggered.  So basically what Magorn said.
 
2014-02-21 03:51:28 PM  

I Like Shiny Things: Are all of these russian/polish type people considered normal whites?

I want to hate them all but I'm not quite sure how to classify them.


www.blackbluedog.com
 
rpl
2014-02-21 03:52:17 PM  

uncoveror: This may be a trick to get the rebels to lay down their arms so the army will meet less resistance when Yanukovych sends them in the army anyway.

He will retain power if the army still obeys him, but is toast if at least half of the army turns against him when he orders them to kill civilians.


The Ukrainian army won't do jack; their mission statement strictly prohibits any internal action. I doubt Yanuk is going to try anything beyond what we've seen in the past few days, if only because I'm pretty sure he'd shown us all he's got.
 
2014-02-21 03:53:11 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0


You mean the GOP would be ok with disenfranchising black voters?

I think not!
 
2014-02-21 03:56:24 PM  

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


Except Constitution 1.0 didn't have the Bill of Rights add-on. Which is why the GOP doesn't want to roll back to 1.0. They like the 2nd Amendment module too much.
 
2014-02-21 03:58:35 PM  

I Like Shiny Things: Are all of these russian/polish type people considered normal whites?

I want to hate them all but I'm not quite sure how to classify them.


They are Slavs, so feel free to hate them.
 
2014-02-21 03:59:27 PM  

danzak: Unfortunately, this ain't over by a long shot.  I'm torn - Yanukovych needs to face justice for his actions but you also need to start somewhere.  Maidan protesters are not accepting the deal struck today and are threatening further actions tomorrow basically making any peaceful end to this impossible.  I'm watching the stream now and they're bringing those that died to the Maidan to pay respects.  The speeches have been taking a much nastier tone over the last 24 hours as well (expected).  There's also a good chance they will lose any international support if they were to go on the offensive now but I doubt they give 2 shiats about that.  I just don't know.

Here is a write up from a acquaintance of mine in Kyiv:

Mychailo Wynnyckyj
Extremely tense and emotional events unfolding on Maidan tonight. According to the announced plan for tonight, a funeral service for the men who lost their lives yesterday in battles against the regime was supposed to be held. The three opposition party leaders (Yatseniuk, Klitschko, Tiahnybok), Poroshenko and other politicians were invited onto the stage together with priests. The crowd (40-50 thousand people) whistled at them, and demanded explanations regarding today's "deal" with Yanukovych. Most people in the crowd are, to put it mildly, not happy that an agreement was signed with the person they see as responsible for 77 dead and several hundred injured civilians. The funeral service was interrupted when one of the coffins was brought directly to the front of the stage during Klitschko's speech, and the crowd began shouting "who will answer for this?!". Then a "Sotnia" (unit) commander who had personally fought with riot police during the past days, forced his way onto the stage. His short emotional speech, during which he stressed that his unit was very well armed, ended with an ultimatum to the opposition leaders: either force the President's resignation by 10 am tomorrow, and renounce your deal with Yanukovych (according to whi ...


Thank you.  It sounds like the oppo leaders really might be ousted.  They'll need to be careful: the protestors are wanting significantly more results than they've received so far.  I can't say I blame them.  Yanukovych remaining in power has to be an utter defeat.
 
2014-02-21 04:02:01 PM  
The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.
 
2014-02-21 04:04:15 PM  
Right about now, I'm thanking my lucky stars that we live in a safe part of the world, where the people aren't rebelling against their gov't, requiring deadly force.

I've often wondered how that works out for the people in the military and police.
(I'm serious about this, bare with me)

Those folks, while they work for the government, are supposed to protect the people.  What happens when you are suddenly ordered by your government to open fire on those people?  Aren't the odds tremendously good that the person you shoot could be a friend or relative?  Doesn't that create a rather massive conflict of interest?

Even someplace like best Korea...  If the military was suddenly set loose on it's people, at what point would they simply say "fark that!" and refuse?  Worse yet, turn on their masters?
 
2014-02-21 04:06:39 PM  

Deep Contact: KellyX: Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?

Why not just firebomb the parliament building and blame it on Poland?

Or sink a Ukrainian navy ship and blame it on Spain.


You blame the parliament fire on Dutch communists to sieze control of the government.

Blaming Spain for your exploding ships and having your soldiers dress up as Poles and attack you are to justify invasions.
 
2014-02-21 04:07:20 PM  
Who cares
 
2014-02-21 04:09:06 PM  

drjekel_mrhyde: Who cares


History cares.  And history will eat us all, some sooner than others.  It's why we keep tabs on it.
 
2014-02-21 04:11:41 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.


Too bad he quit figure skating due to an injury.
 
2014-02-21 04:15:12 PM  

stevetherobot: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

Except Constitution 1.0 didn't have the Bill of Rights add-on. Which is why the GOP doesn't want to roll back to 1.0. They like the 2nd Amendment module too much.


My question is, is the "version 1.0" the original contitution for the United States (the Articles of Confederation) or the sequal, named the Constitution (which could also be viewed as constitution 2.0)?
 
2014-02-21 04:20:50 PM  

Magorn: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Our Ukrainian Farker had said in a recent thread that most opposition leaders wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko since she really WAS  a crook (and issued a no compromise ..EVER manifesto from prison that did nothing to clam the violence yesterday)   so why DID they vote to free her today?


Well, if they don't even like her, why not release her?

Makes them look willing to compromise, by rolling back a Russian style law that allows you to put your political opponents in jail for random reasons.

The law will of course also apply to the current PM, which is an extra bonus for him if he looses the next election.
 
2014-02-21 04:24:54 PM  

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


From the original:  Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

Yeah, let's go back to that.
 
2014-02-21 04:24:59 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.


Especially since this afternoon 8 people were convicted in Russia for protesting outside Putin's third inauguration in May 2012 and can face up to 10yrs in prison.

Sentencing is being delayed until Monday. The Olympics close on Sunday.

200 people protesting outside the court have been arrested.

:-(
 
2014-02-21 04:25:28 PM  

Alphakronik: I have a question:

When leading an opposition group such as this, what is the advantage to the tactic of taking over a square and barricading yourselves in?

It would seem this goes against everything Sun Tsu taught in the Art of War.  Why not send rogue teams out for dismantling of specific targets in infrastructure and logistics, disrupting the communications and such of the party in power?


They took over most government offices, and made several attempts at taking over the parliament as well.

Also, what war?
 
2014-02-21 04:25:32 PM  

vpb: Magorn: To be fair I think he meant that in a factual way rather than an overtly threatening one.  He knew Yanukovich was planning to declare martial law and unleash the full weight of the army on the protesters and if the soldiers obeyed orders, they protesters stood no chance (and I will lay money that Putin offered a brigade of plainclothes Spetsnaz to the effort who he guaranteed WOULD follow Yanukovich's orders

They knew that was a possibility going in.

Besides, Ceausescu tried that and he ended up between a wall and a firing squad.


"Securitatea" or secret police did listen to Ceausescu for a few days (revolution started in Timisoara around 16-17 and only spread to Bucharest on 21st and 22nd). Even in Bucharest when the protesters went to the TV station (3 miles away from where I lived) and the Presidential palace, there was a firefight during that night and a little the next day. Unless you want to believe the conspiracy theory that nobody from Ceausescu's side fired guns and that it was all gunshot sounds broadcasted over megaphones and the protestors just shot themselves. (Yes, some Romanians believe that).
 
2014-02-21 04:26:40 PM  

jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.


No, goofus, he means the Constitution without those pesky amendments, especially the 13th and 14th. The one that said "non-free" persons counted as 3/5 for allocating Congressional representation. Y'know, Ron Paul's Constitution.
 
2014-02-21 04:38:39 PM  

CygnusDarius: Well... Wow. I never thought just how much all politicians of the world look alike, in general.

/Then again
//I live in Mexico
///I've seen some shiat



georgeorwell.blog.com


"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
 
2014-02-21 04:43:57 PM  

midigod: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke


With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.  We can try to squeeze other stuff in under them, like "privacy."

Without Bill of Rights:  You have rights.  The government doesn't define what they are.

Hmm.
 
2014-02-21 04:44:40 PM  
Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste:

Thank you.  It sounds like the oppo leaders really might be ousted.  They'll need to be careful: the protestors are wanting significantly more results than they've received so far.  I can't say I blame them.  Yanukovych remaining in power has to be an utter defeat.

I don't really get that sentiment.

There'll be a broad coalition government, constitution rolled back to 2004, and almost immediate elections.

With the constitution rollback, he has lost his special presidential powers. Now then, with the EU watching the election like hawks, you'll also have a fair election (or if an unfair one, one that is clearly unfair). Just don't vote for the farking dude.

And if he does get elected, they'll just have to respect the outcome of a democratic election.

Anyhow, given the nature of democracy, maybe the opposition should try to be the ones who seem resonable, rather than wanting to fight regardless of concessions.
 
2014-02-21 04:50:10 PM  
So, you say Slavic government is back to normal, Comrades?
 
2014-02-21 04:52:34 PM  

mbillips: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

No, goofus, he means the Constitution without those pesky amendments, especially the 13th and 14th. The one that said "non-free" persons counted as 3/5 for allocating Congressional representation. Y'know, Ron Paul's Constitution.


Another stunning example of how natural rights don't exist.  Liberty, FFS!  Liberty is the basic foundation of "natural rights," and it took us how long to say "Don't enslave people?"

That it even had to be said, let alone written as an amendment to our basic law.

It's also interesting how out Constitution started off as a document saying "government doesn't have the power to restrict the people," and out of necessity became "government really needs to restrict the people sometimes."
 
2014-02-21 04:55:02 PM  
sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.
 
2014-02-21 04:56:07 PM  
shiatty reporting.  They are obviously trying to shock people into reading the article by portraying the man as a mob boss, but he's simply making a statement about the outcome of martial law.
 
2014-02-21 05:00:44 PM  

Tigger: sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.


Uh.  Enumerated just means "listed."

Now, the ninth says that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

But then why have the list?  Why not just say "Government may not deny or disparage any rights retained by the people?"

Because people are assholes, and need to be told what their rights are.
 
2014-02-21 05:04:09 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.

Uh.  Enumerated just means "listed."

Now, the ninth says that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

But then why have the list?  Why not just say "Government may not deny or disparage any rights retained by the people?"

Because people are assholes, and need to be told what their rights are.


The meaning of enumerate has nothing to do with where and why you are wrong.

Your position: The consitution enumerates your rights
The truth: The constitution details the limits on government with regards to your rights.

It's grade school civics mate.
 
2014-02-21 05:07:04 PM  
Yanukovych flown to Kharkiv, due to square's threats of violence if no resignation by 10:00AM.
 
2014-02-21 05:10:32 PM  

bunner: Behind every vote, every desk in every bureaucracy, every bank note and wealthy man's gates are a bunch of people who, by laws of their own making, are allowed to shoot you if you don't play along with the interests of the people who have most of the desks, bank notes, vest pocketed bureaucrats and properties that need gates.

The rule of law has always been nothing more than codified constructs wherein, depending on how many people you can get to yell "BULLSH*T!" at once, you're fair game.  Criminal law, in it's truest sense, is a different box of cookies but has been subverted to the point where they aim the guns at the wrong people half the time, anyhow.

I am grateful for the greed mongers stripping the paint off the wall, the erosion of any pretense to leadership that political power has been exposed to by its own actions, and the internet.

Because the last one made the first two very obvious.  Now all we have to do is figure out how far we'll go to act on this information and divest ourselves of a now useless, archaic and violent system of governance and commerce that has nothing resembling a useful cost / benefits analysis in the post modern world.


And move to what?
 
2014-02-21 05:10:47 PM  

Truther: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

Wat?


Obviously "Truther" hasn't been or can't pay attention to the current regime .. that or "Truther" is an Obama Operative. But I'll give "Truther" this much .. the RINOs on the Hill are godforsaken ass-wipes who will face judgement day, come the elections.

More Tea, sir?
 
2014-02-21 05:10:49 PM  

Tigger: sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.

Uh.  Enumerated just means "listed."

Now, the ninth says that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

But then why have the list?  Why not just say "Government may not deny or disparage any rights retained by the people?"

Because people are assholes, and need to be told what their rights are.

The meaning of enumerate has nothing to do with where and why you are wrong.

Your position: The consitution enumerates your rights
The truth: The constitution details the limits on government with regards to your rights.

It's grade school civics mate.


Why is a list of (some) rights necessary?
 
2014-02-21 05:10:55 PM  
guess i was prescient in getting those screenshots

:(
 
2014-02-21 05:11:53 PM  

sendtodave: mbillips: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

No, goofus, he means the Constitution without those pesky amendments, especially the 13th and 14th. The one that said "non-free" persons counted as 3/5 for allocating Congressional representation. Y'know, Ron Paul's Constitution.

Another stunning example of how natural rights don't exist.  Liberty, FFS!  Liberty is the basic foundation of "natural rights," and it took us how long to say "Don't enslave people?"

That it even had to be said, let alone written as an amendment to our basic law.

It's also interesting how out Constitution started off as a document saying "government doesn't have the power to restrict the people," and out of necessity became "government really needs to restrict the people sometimes."


So you're good with the gov't telling you what rights you have?  Does that also mean you're good with 'em taking said rights away?
 
2014-02-21 05:12:50 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
With Bill of Rights:  You have these enumerated rights.

Fail:

The Bill of Rights doesn't enumerate your rights it details what rights the government may not abridge. Epically massively different.

Uh.  Enumerated just means "listed."

Now, the ninth says that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

But then why have the list?  Why not just say "Government may not deny or disparage any rights retained by the people?"

Because people are assholes, and need to be told what their rights are.

The meaning of enumerate has nothing to do with where and why you are wrong.

Your position: The consitution enumerates your rights
The truth: The constitution details the limits on government with regards to your rights.

It's grade school civics mate.

Why is a list of (some) rights necessary?


Because gov't always takes what it hasn't been told explicitly it may not?
 
2014-02-21 05:14:45 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

Restore it?  Absolutely!  First though, tell us where/when it seemingly was lost, so we know where to begin our search.


First Amendment: hate speech
Second Amendment: gun-free zones
 
2014-02-21 05:18:30 PM  

sendtodave: mbillips: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

No, goofus, he means the Constitution without those pesky amendments, especially the 13th and 14th. The one that said "non-free" persons counted as 3/5 for allocating Congressional representation. Y'know, Ron Paul's Constitution.

Another stunning example of how natural rights don't exist.  Liberty, FFS!  Liberty is the basic foundation of "natural rights," and it took us how long to say "Don't enslave people?"

That it even had to be said, let alone written as an amendment to our basic law.

It's also interesting how out Constitution started off as a document saying "government doesn't have the power to restrict the people," and out of necessity became "government really needs to restrict the people sometimes."


Meh, it is pretty simple. On the whole people are typically awful.

All laws are inherently about restricted people (whether a few people in the government or the general population).
 
2014-02-21 05:18:31 PM  

BgJonson79: So you're good with the gov't telling you what rights you have?  Does that also mean you're good with 'em taking said rights away?


Doesn't really matter if I am good with it or not, they can, and do.  Repeatedly.

Heck, our country was founded on taking obvious natural rights away from huge groups of people.

I'm with George Carlin.

In 1942 there were 110,000 Japanese-American citizens, in good standing, law abiding people, who were thrown into internment camps simply because their parents were born in the wrong country. That's all they did wrong. They had no right to a lawyer, no right to a fair trial, no right to a jury of their peers, no right to due process of any kind. The only right they had was...right this way! Into the internment camps.

Just when these American citizens needed their rights the most...their government took them away. and rights aren't rights if someone can take em away. They're privileges. That's all we've ever had in this country is a bill of TEMPORARY privileges; and if you read the news, even badly, you know the list get's shorter, and shorter, and shorter.


Really, all rights are civil rights if they can be taken away.

And this is all aside from the fact that no one can say where natural rights come from.  "The Creator?"  Never met the guy.
 
2014-02-21 05:20:00 PM  

BgJonson79: Because gov't always takes what it hasn't been told explicitly it may not?


Good premise.

So, we need to rely on government to... keep itself... from taking away our rights.

Oh.
 
2014-02-21 05:20:36 PM  

spawn73: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste:

Thank you.  It sounds like the oppo leaders really might be ousted.  They'll need to be careful: the protestors are wanting significantly more results than they've received so far.  I can't say I blame them.  Yanukovych remaining in power has to be an utter defeat.

I don't really get that sentiment.

There'll be a broad coalition government, constitution rolled back to 2004, and almost immediate elections.


Nope, elections by Dec 2014 so only about 2 months before the scheduled ones.  they're also refusing that he will remain President after being responsible for 77 dead and hundreds wounded.  And, honestly, I can't blame them but I also think they need to start somewhere.  I guess that somewhere needs to be his removal.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's dead within 2 weeks.  Just a matter of who it is that gets him.
 
2014-02-21 05:22:10 PM  
:(
 
2014-02-21 05:30:17 PM  

BgJonson79: And move to what?


The only useful socioeconomic equilibrium comes when ideas, capital and technology flow freely and with the best interests of the greater good.  Tinpot wankers, greedheads and macaroni hat dictator weenies are not only odious, they are useless to the point of no longer being feasible.  They're the log in the road.
 
2014-02-21 05:32:29 PM  

BgJonson79: First Amendment: hate speech
Second Amendment: gun-free zones


Maybe they should open gun free zones in the free speech zones and then let rich people shoot at the people stupid enough to sit there.
 
2014-02-21 05:33:33 PM  

sendtodave: BgJonson79: Because gov't always takes what it hasn't been told explicitly it may not?

Good premise.

So, we need to rely on government to... keep itself... from taking away our rights.

Oh.


Like Democracy, there are huge issues with the system, but it is the best option we have.
 
2014-02-21 05:33:58 PM  

danzak: Unfortunately, this ain't over by a long shot.  I'm torn - Yanukovych needs to face justice for his actions but you also need to start somewhere.  Maidan protesters are not accepting the deal struck today and are threatening further actions tomorrow basically making any peaceful end to this impossible.  I'm watching the stream now and they're bringing those that died to the Maidan to pay respects.  The speeches have been taking a much nastier tone over the last 24 hours as well (expected).  There's also a good chance they will lose any international support if they were to go on the offensive now but I doubt they give 2 shiats about that.  I just don't know.

Here is a write up from a acquaintance of mine in Kyiv:


Thanks for that. I guess it's wait and see now. Keep in mind that it's quite possible the most vocal protesters at that moment were the most extreme ones. If they can't muster wide support for their position of rejecting the compromise, they won't be able to keep things going for long. I can't say I'm surprised by the Weeners. They just watched a bunch of their fellow protesters get killed. That doesn't put people in a mood to forgive and forget.
 
2014-02-21 05:36:07 PM  

Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.


Why?
 
2014-02-21 05:37:52 PM  

dywed88: Like Democracy, there are huge issues with the system, but it is the best option we have.


No, the best option we have is to be honest about the empirical evidence that any "One True Way™" method of socioeconomic management is like trying to build a car with either just an engine, just brakes or just a comfy interior, and largely failures.  Isms, all isms, all "cracies" are apply as needed.  Not monothematic, one band aid covers all booboos solution to all things.  Never were.  That's the con.
 
2014-02-21 05:38:49 PM  

LewDux: Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.


Why?


History.
 
2014-02-21 05:45:44 PM  

Kittypie070: LewDux: Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.

Why?

History.


It's clearly Slavic language. Genetically "in what is now Polish there is continuity of certain genetic lines, at least from the Roman period to the present", "population of the Middle Ages shared the largest number of informative haplotypes shared with the population of modern Belarus, Ukraine and Bulgaria"
 
2014-02-21 05:46:42 PM  
You're forgiven
 
2014-02-21 05:49:35 PM  
Bored as hell, recheckin' the thread
Just what I thought: It got delet-ed
But I gotta thank the mods for stiflin' the holla,
Even though mine wasn't impropa

Got a secret message, amidst the plinkin'
So I spit another rhyme, cuz it got me thinkin'
So I took a couple screens of what was so naughty
It was all just so funny had me screamin' "O LAWDY"

Went to the desk laughing like mad
Had to share my story because it was so rad
Couldn't let it go, felt it'd be remiss
There's a moral to this story and it's something like this:
   S'what happens talkin' shi*,

Wouldn't you know?
I made a sweet comment
But it had to go.

I almost jumped up,
and started to shout..
But I got a secret message
That put the fire out.

Cuz the threads on Fark are always hard
Hope I don't get hammered for playing this card
Wouldn't be mad cuz it'd be legit
Cuz that's what happens when you start talkin' shiat*.

/seriously, though, no hammer would be tight like a tiger.
//THIS IS MY LEGACY
 
2014-02-21 05:50:08 PM  

danzak: spawn73: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste:

Thank you.  It sounds like the oppo leaders really might be ousted.  They'll need to be careful: the protestors are wanting significantly more results than they've received so far.  I can't say I blame them.  Yanukovych remaining in power has to be an utter defeat.

I don't really get that sentiment.

There'll be a broad coalition government, constitution rolled back to 2004, and almost immediate elections.

Nope, elections by Dec 2014 so only about 2 months before the scheduled ones.  they're also refusing that he will remain President after being responsible for 77 dead and hundreds wounded.  And, honestly, I can't blame them but I also think they need to start somewhere.  I guess that somewhere needs to be his removal.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's dead within 2 weeks.  Just a matter of who it is that gets him.


The exact wording is that elections should be held as soon as possible, with december 2014 being the latest.

For a democratic process to work, and for a legitimate government to be elected, you first need to have the constitution in place, figure out who is running for parliament, and giving the candidates time to campaign as to let the public know who they're casting their votes for.

I don't know that he is responsible. I should think that would be the a matter for the courts after the "new" constitution is in place and a new parliament elected.


Dunno what the over under is for him being alive. If he resigns now, I could see mob rule and him being lynched since he then has no control. If he doesn't resign, I could see mob rule and him being lynched as well.

Perhaps the wisest for him would be to just play the martyr card and go in exile in Moscow.
 
2014-02-21 05:50:52 PM  

bunner: dywed88: Like Democracy, there are huge issues with the system, but it is the best option we have.

No, the best option we have is to be honest about the empirical evidence that any "One True Way™" method of socioeconomic management is like trying to build a car with either just an engine, just brakes or just a comfy interior, and largely failures.  Isms, all isms, all "cracies" are apply as needed.  Not monothematic, one band aid covers all booboos solution to all things.  Never were.  That's the con.


Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.

A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.

It certainly isn't guaranteed that any government will protect your rights, but it is far better than any other option.

Now, there are times and places where a functional democratic government is not feasible for a variety of reasons. They have to find an alternative.

As for the original post, it was paraphrasing a famous quote.
 
2014-02-21 05:57:10 PM  
The exact wording is that elections should be held as soon as possible, with december 2014 being the latest.

For a democratic process to work, and for a legitimate government to be elected, you first need to have the constitution in place, figure out who is running for parliament, and giving the candidates time to campaign as to let the public know who they're casting their votes for.

I don't know that he is responsible. I should think that would be the a matter for the courts after the "new" constitution is in place and a new parliament elected.


Right, but that is unacceptable to the protesters - maybe having to wait to Dec for new elections with a Unity gov't in temporarily which may be powerless again if the PoR reunite and Yanukovych remaining President for that time.
I think they've referred back to the Constitution from 2004, are they intending to rewrite it?
I don't think he can escape to Moscow, I think it's just as likely that Putin may have him killed.
 
2014-02-21 05:58:59 PM  
Berkut in Dnipropetrowsk hand over the outfit to protesters

pbs.twimg.com

FYI, location of Dnipropetrowsk:

upload.wikimedia.org

Lenin monuments went down in Dnipropetrowsk, Poltava, Pryluky, Slavuta, Bila Tserkva...
 
2014-02-21 05:59:58 PM  

dywed88: Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.


Much like with a government.

dywed88: A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.


Call me when we have one.

dywed88: It certainly isn't guaranteed that any government will protect your rights, but it is far better than any other option.


That's called whistling pat the graveyard.

I get the paraphrase but if change is the essence of civilization, and if you look back to post Roman monasteries where the candle of knowledge flickered and sputtered for 600 years, stasis is a piss poor alternative to risk.  And until the 1% put the capital back into play here, instead of moving shop to Asia so they can get - isn't this precious - more capital, cheaper, all this dusty book, How things work" malarkey is last weeks papers, exists in a vacuum of dated, no longer applied constructs and a piss up a rope.  In other words, if you get off the bus at the brick wall in the road and say "this is where the road ends", it does.  Progress has reached a bottleneck and it's been installed by the very people who insist that all the sh*t we've been using and/or chained to since Bologna opened a global marketplace - still works fine.  We've learned what doesn't work.  And it's time to come back from the monkey bars and start using what we've learned about what does.
 
2014-02-21 06:00:50 PM  

traylor: Berkut in Dnipropetrowsk hand over the outfit to protesters


Thanks, hadn't seen that one.  Nice pic.
 
2014-02-21 06:04:52 PM  

danielscissorhands: You know who else liked telling people to sign peace agreements...

.[homepage.eircom.net image 272x350]


But he didn't want the Czechoslovakia crisis to end with an agreement, he wanted a quick war and was pissed off about how things turned out.
 
2014-02-21 06:05:42 PM  
You wanna know what built the world that still stands upon he ruins of the industrial revolution?  The robber barons were smart enough to put it back into play.  This crop of "gimmie über alles" dipsh*ts who think history is black and white sitcoms are going to get eaten alive when the etch a sketch gets shaken.  I, for one, will not be terribly arsed up about it when they do.
 
2014-02-21 06:07:36 PM  

bunner: Behind every vote, every desk in every bureaucracy, every bank note and wealthy man's gates are a bunch of people who, by laws of their own making, are allowed to shoot you if you don't play along with the interests of the people who have most of the desks, bank notes, vest pocketed bureaucrats and properties that need gates.

The rule of law has always been nothing more than codified constructs wherein, depending on how many people you can get to yell "BULLSH*T!" at once, you're fair game.  Criminal law, in it's truest sense, is a different box of cookies but has been subverted to the point where they aim the guns at the wrong people half the time, anyhow.

I am grateful for the greed mongers stripping the paint off the wall, the erosion of any pretense to leadership that political power has been exposed to by its own actions, and the internet.

Because the last one made the first two very obvious.  Now all we have to do is figure out how far we'll go to act on this information and divest ourselves of a now useless, archaic and violent system of governance and commerce that has nothing resembling a useful cost / benefits analysis in the post modern world.


I see you've been thinking a lot about this and have hurt yourself.
 
2014-02-21 06:13:27 PM  

bunner: dywed88: Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.

Much like with a government.

dywed88: A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.

Call me when we have one.

dywed88: It certainly isn't guaranteed that any government will protect your rights, but it is far better than any other option.

That's called whistling pat the graveyard.

I get the paraphrase but if change is the essence of civilization, and if you look back to post Roman monasteries where the candle of knowledge flickered and sputtered for 600 years, stasis is a piss poor alternative to risk.  And until the 1% put the capital back into play here, instead of moving shop to Asia so they can get - isn't this precious - more capital, cheaper, all this dusty book, How things work" malarkey is last weeks papers, exists in a vacuum of dated, no longer applied constructs and a piss up a rope.  In other words, if you get off the bus at the brick wall in the road and say "this is where the road ends", it does.  Progress has reached a bottleneck and it's been installed by the very people who insist that all the sh*t we've been using and/or chained to since Bologna opened a global marketplace - still works fine.  We've learned what doesn't work.  And it's time to come back from the monkey bars and start using what we've learned about what does.


You can find functional Democratic governments throughout the developed world and many in the developing world. And, yes, they are the best at protecting the rights of most people. They are far from perfect, but better than pretty much any other government especially in the long term.

Care to provide an alternative?
 
2014-02-21 06:13:33 PM  

Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.


Say what?
 
2014-02-21 06:19:29 PM  
From Twitter:

What is the average IQ of a security agency that names its anti-terrorist operation "Boomerang"?

/looked it up, the Anti-Terrorist Center of the Ministry of Internal Affairs gave this name three days ago to an operation to clean up Maidan
 
2014-02-21 06:23:41 PM  

dywed88: Care to provide an alternative?


Empiricism.

Education.

Actual free trade, not just the sort that benefits the wealthy.

Global legal constructs deigned to server humanity,not feudal lords.  We're all moved in, now.  Saber rattling and economic pissing matches are like watching your fat assed uncle Bert shout 9 beer malarkey and put a lampshade on at Christmas.  It's beyond a parody.  I'll give a sh*t about the technological great leap forward when it stops being a toolkit for dime store, 17th c. world leader pretends with a new box of hammers to hit people with.  Protection?  Who protects the homeless people shot by cops cause "hey, he pissed me off"?  Who protects the people trying to earn a living in a culture that demands feudal fealty to corporate whorehouses whose only mission is finding new gravy to work around the vomit they're spewing in their gluttony?  Who protects us from an oligarchy that can circumvent any legality with the wave of a quarterly report?  Functionality isn't measured by what you settle for.
 
2014-02-21 06:25:33 PM  
to SERVE
 
2014-02-21 06:28:38 PM  
dywed88
Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.
A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.


That's nothing but magical thinking. Power comes from strength. Even if you have your precious "functional democracy", your political decisions will be ignored if you have no strength- whether military, economic, ideological, or some other form. With "democracy" but no popular strength, the result is what we see today in the United States- a slow descent into a sort of quasi-capitalist neo-feudalism.
 
2014-02-21 06:29:41 PM  

RanDomino: That's nothing but magical thinking. Power comes from strength. Even if you have your precious "functional democracy", your political decisions will be ignored if you have no strength- whether military, economic, ideological, or some other form. With "democracy" but no popular strength, the result is what we see today in the United States- a slow descent into a sort of quasi-capitalist neo-feudalism.


This.
 
2014-02-21 06:32:00 PM  

RanDomino: dywed88
Without a government the only rights you have are the ones you or someone else can use force to protect.
A functional democratic form of government is the best way to protect people's rights.

That's nothing but magical thinking. Power comes from strength. Even if you have your precious "functional democracy", your political decisions will be ignored if you have no strength- whether military, economic, ideological, or some other form. With "democracy" but no popular strength, the result is what we see today in the United States- a slow descent into a sort of quasi-capitalist neo-feudalism.


Unlike in all other political systems, there things stay the same for centuries
 
2014-02-21 06:33:39 PM  
It's this simple.  Until we value the guy who can teach you good and useful things over the guy who can "kick your f*ckin' ass, dude!", we're gonna sit here eating crumbs and ducking around a corner of a side street when the hubris besotted mongoloids we DO value come down the street.  Reason over rhetoric, science over violence, full bellies over gold.  Not until.  And the rest is a piss up a rope.
 
2014-02-21 06:43:05 PM  
She's getting better.

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-02-21 06:45:43 PM  

bunner: dywed88: Care to provide an alternative?

Empiricism.

Education.

Actual free trade, not just the sort that benefits the wealthy.

Global legal constructs deigned to server humanity,not feudal lords.  We're all moved in, now.  Saber rattling and economic pissing matches are like watching your fat assed uncle Bert shout 9 beer malarkey and put a lampshade on at Christmas.  It's beyond a parody.  I'll give a sh*t about the technological great leap forward when it stops being a toolkit for dime store, 17th c. world leader pretends with a new box of hammers to hit people with.  Protection?  Who protects the homeless people shot by cops cause "hey, he pissed me off"?  Who protects the people trying to earn a living in a culture that demands feudal fealty to corporate whorehouses whose only mission is finding new gravy to work around the vomit they're spewing in their gluttony?  Who protects us from an oligarchy that can circumvent any legality with the wave of a quarterly report?  Functionality isn't measured by what you settle for.


So, no.
 
2014-02-21 06:46:06 PM  
There was anti-Yanukovich protest in Kharkiv last night. YouTube

Not a big one, but a good start. It shows that the country isn't that divided.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-02-21 06:47:52 PM  

zimbomba63: Kittypie070: The Ryssä [Russians] are Slavs.

The Poles, mebbe not so much.
DURP

Say what?


I admitted I was incorrect, all right?
 
2014-02-21 06:48:31 PM  

dywed88: So, no.


I am not responsible for your reading comprehension being limited to that which you already believe or the narrow scope it resides in.
 
2014-02-21 06:49:47 PM  
Paramedics from Hungary.

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-02-21 06:51:02 PM  

traylor: Berkut in Dnipropetrowsk hand over the outfit to protesters

[pbs.twimg.com image 720x960]

FYI, location of Dnipropetrowsk:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x166]

Lenin monuments went down in Dnipropetrowsk, Poltava, Pryluky, Slavuta, Bila Tserkva...


Oh that one pic has made it worthwhile today.

:)
 
2014-02-21 06:51:27 PM  
Russian TV

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-02-21 06:55:52 PM  

traylor: Russian TV

[pbs.twimg.com image 750x600]


Are they shiatting us?
 
2014-02-21 06:58:37 PM  
A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f
 
2014-02-21 06:59:09 PM  
Whatever you can sell the most people on, who are willing to pay your bills or afraid not to, is what runs things.
 
2014-02-21 07:05:19 PM  
I hear rumours through the grapevine that there were something like 60+ other VIP flights out of the Ukraine as well.
 
2014-02-21 07:07:32 PM  

danzak: A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f


Uhm ... it's going in the direction of Tehran now, WTF?
 
2014-02-21 07:08:31 PM  

Kittypie070: I hear rumours through the grapevine that there were something like 60+ other VIP flights out of the Ukraine as well.


180 left on one day, according to a business woman that was on state TV here.
 
2014-02-21 07:09:49 PM  
what brave statesmen they are.
 
2014-02-21 07:13:07 PM  

Kittypie070: traylor: Russian TV

[pbs.twimg.com image 750x600]

Are they shiatting us?


Didn't you know that in Russia first aid kills you...
 
2014-02-21 07:45:29 PM  

flexflint: danzak: A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f

Uhm ... it's going in the direction of Tehran now, WTF?


This is now being reported on EspressoTV.  Maybe it's legit
 
2014-02-21 07:47:30 PM  

bunner: dywed88: So, no.

I am not responsible for your reading comprehension being limited to that which you already believe or the narrow scope it resides in.


You posted two words that have nothing to do with forms of government or government processes and a rant.

Give an actual alternative. Suggest actions that can be taken (in the real world).
 
2014-02-21 07:54:39 PM  

dywed88: You posted two words that have nothing to do with forms of government or government processes and a rant.


Horsesh*t.

dywed88: Give an actual alternative. Suggest actions that can be taken (in the real world).


I hope you saved the receipt for your pose of authority.  Sometimes when I'm on this site, I feel like I'm standing in front of a RedBox with 345658 copies of the same movie I got tired of sitting through years ago.  Bye.
 
2014-02-21 07:56:10 PM  
And the alternative? Getting slaughtered anyway, but looking like biatches in the process.
 
2014-02-21 08:04:46 PM  

flexflint: Kittypie070: I hear rumours through the grapevine that there were something like 60+ other VIP flights out of the Ukraine as well.

180 left on one day, according to a business woman that was on state TV here.


They did have like 360 of them in Parliament including 130 from PoR so I guess they got denied and had to return
 
2014-02-21 08:29:49 PM  

midigod: jnapier: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0

you mean restore the constitution?
Yeah that would be terrible, all those personal liberties and rights.

There's no Bill of Rights in Version 1.0.

/That's the joke


Even more to the point of the joke, it applies no MATTER WHAT PARTICULAR VERSION YOU ARE USING AS VERSION 1.0 :D

If you're talking the Constitution of 1787 (which was actually Constitution 2.0), the Bill of Rights was actually passed as a bugfix of sorts in the 1790s after it was brought up that Assuming Was A Bad Thing.  (There is actually a decent argument--based in part on Constitution 1.0, which we'll discuss in a minute--that there was still entirely too much assuming going on, particularly regarding the role of the states in maintaining the "militia" mentioned in the Second Amendment, but we'll get to that shortly.)

As for Constitution 1.0...not a lot of folks remember that one, as that wasn't called a "Constitution" and more of an "Articles of Confederation".  I also expect a lot of people who consider the Second Amendment an excuse to masturbate furiously with an American flag stroking a rather large weapon as a penile surrogate would not be terribly happy with the Articles of Confederation for a number of reasons:

a) Aforementioned "Articles" explicitly set up the US pretty much EXACTLY in the way the EU is set up now, with the sole exceptions being that there was LESS of a functional parliamentary government (and this was pretty much explicitly by design, and it went right to shiat in less than ten years) and--unlike the EU--there was a NATO-esque "American Army" of sorts set up.  There were also no laws on the states passing laws mandating that citizenship was restricted to a particular flavour of Christianity (there were some states that--I shiat you not--you could not legally vote in unless you were the RIGHT flavour of Baptist or Methodist or Episcopalian).

Yeah, you could have guns.  Were mandated to, in fact.  Unfortunately for Second Amendment fans, there were actually more restrictions (like, oh, the whole reason you were allowed to have guns is because you were legally considered to be part of the army of your state in case the NDNs or French or British decided to get pissy and you HAD to be in prime "fighting fit" condition ALL THE TIME and were required to take two weeks out of every six months to train at your state guard recruitment center on pain of imprisonment).

Yes, you're reading this right: the laws in Constitution 1.0 (and in conjunction with the early Militia Acts, technically with 2.0 as well) pretty much stated outright the whole reason you had guns was to do Canton Guards just like in Switzerland (apparently there were Notes Taken from the Hessians) and you could legally be denied the right to own a gun if you were too gimped/too crazy/too derpy/too blind to shoot straight because pretty much every guy who could be trusted to not perform a Bobbit-operation-via-musket was considered de facto drafted from the time he could vote to the time he could no longer be trusted to not shoot himself in the hrbls.  (Somehow I don't think the whole "YOU WILL FARKING GO TO BOOT CAMP OR WE WILL HAVE YOU THROWN IN THE LOCAL TARDFARM OR IN PRISON" would go so well with the usual "BUT FREEDUM!" narrative some have.)

Oh, and the right to own a weapon (or to vote, or to do a lot of things--often up to and including "use tools and live indoors and generally be considered a fellow human") essentially didn't exist if you weren't a white male Anglo-Saxon of the right flavour of Protestantism for your state.  Just sayin'.  (These, too, have been bug-fixed by various things we call "acts of Congress" and "Amendments to the Constitution"--a process that is actually quite a bit easier under Constitution 2.0 versus 1.0, as 2.0 actually included an explicit revision process that didn't require a complete rewrite.  A lot of folks are still rather butthurt about the emergency zero-day patches put in around 1867 or so--the largest since the 1791 emergency bugfix we call the "BIll of Rights rollout"--but they've helped the Constitutional code remain remarkably stable.  We've actually done pretty good with the bugfixes, in that we've only had to pull one so far (where a proposed "feature inclusion" tended to severely wreck the performance of the body politic).  Realistically only one "include group of people as US citizens" bugfix seems to have been done without a Constitutional bugfix of some sort, and that was the series of "Let's actually consider the potential originators of some of the source code for our Constitution who've lived here for 18,000 years plus actually be in the 'citizens' userclass rather than the 'effectively stateless persons' subclass" that passed in the 20s through late 40s.)
 
2014-02-21 08:32:41 PM  
Declare Martial law.
Call in the Military.
Prey they are on your side.
 
2014-02-21 08:33:31 PM  
bunner DID give suggestions some other place. I was the one ranting that day, and bunner gave me a soft tap on the nose for it instead of a boot in the @$$ for my insolence.

site:fark.com in Google might be a good start if you want to expend actual effort instead of sitting there yelling at bunner.

Quit trying to bite the pointing finger.
 
2014-02-21 08:37:28 PM  
Yanukovich changes planes in Iran, is now on UAE132 headed to Dubai... http://t.co/tmjkSREn1W
 
2014-02-21 08:38:43 PM  

flexflint: danzak: A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f

Uhm ... it's going in the direction of Tehran now, WTF?


And latest update, going away from Dubai (I assume denied landing rights?) and flying in general direction of Saudi Arabia...
 
2014-02-21 08:38:46 PM  
Hold on, did I just poast in the wrong thread?

dammitall.

sorry.
 
2014-02-21 08:40:24 PM  
No, I'm OK.
 
2014-02-21 08:41:38 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: flexflint: danzak: A flight is being tracked that is rumored to be carrying Yanukovych and his team. 1st destination was belived to be Kharkiv, then Sochi and now it has just left Armenian airspace.  Totally rumored but kind of fun, you can track it at:
http://www.flightradar24.com/AOJ92C/2c1d69f

Uhm ... it's going in the direction of Tehran now, WTF?

And latest update, going away from Dubai (I assume denied landing rights?) and flying in general direction of Saudi Arabia...


And correcting correction--seems to be in a holding pattern outside of international airport in Dubai.  Might be negotiating whether or not landing is allowed, or might just have a lot of airport congestion...
 
2014-02-21 08:45:33 PM  
In a perfect democracy, government is empowered at the behest of and with the consent of the governed.

None of this gymnastic, blowahardery, profit über alles, tap dancing and "harrumph" bullsh*t.

You elect officials who, as a matter of governance, are capable or managing, administering, and regulating matters of defense, commerce, general welfare and progress and laws.  Every voting cycle, they get a review and are either patted on the head or kicked to the curb.

So actual, pure form democracy doesn't exist.  Narrowing one's view to the slit in the fence where the only visible object is the tattered label on a now empty can doesn't make a democracy.  And it doesn't protect any of its constituency.  And it doesn't keep the simple bedrock ideal of effective governance I outlined from getting dropped off behind the dumpster, sad and bruised and with a 5.00 bill stuffed in its shirt.  Picking one of three options from three bins of stale, mushy fruit doesn't mean you're eating what's on the picture on the basket.
 
2014-02-21 08:54:14 PM  

Kittypie070: bunner DID give suggestions some other place. I was the one ranting that day, and bunner gave me a soft tap on the nose for it instead of a boot in the @$$ for my insolence.

site:fark.com in Google might be a good start if you want to expend actual effort instead of sitting there yelling at bunner.

Quit trying to bite the pointing finger.


Kitty?   You want to know why you usually contribute way more than any other user here?  You   WANT   to learn things and you pay attention and you don't have any agendas.  Around here. that's gold pressed latinum.
 
2014-02-21 08:55:54 PM  
Every voting cycle, they get a review and are either patted on the head or kicked to the curb.

Consent of the governed means other things besides consent. It means be watchful.

It means the governed should not let officials run on auto-pilot.
 
2014-02-21 09:08:17 PM  
Well, I usually pay attention. Sometimes I'm just in here for laughs.

But...I dunno but I must have a Gene Kranz streak somewhere because it's "the success of the mission and the safety of the ENTIRE crew", so to speak, that is important.

The mission being the reason this nation was founded, the crew being the entire complement of people living here.

Or for that matter, let's say, the safety and well being of the Ukranian people, and the reason for the existence of their nation.

They have a right, they have a really legitimate set of grievances against the government they FORMERLY consented to.

It's not like they're rebelling against their government because of some utter bullcrap reason like "Keap soshulizm out of ARE Medikare sckooters, Marx0bama is a TRYANT, NO AMNETSY, Whar Birf Certificit?? and we are in a POLICE STATE because postal regulations waah overseas mailing of PERFUME!".

Yeah, I am sorry for the crappy cheap shot. I just couldn't pass it up.
 
2014-02-21 09:09:07 PM  

Kittypie070: It means the governed should not let officials run on auto-pilot.


And this bit of wisdom is useful when all of the offerings aren't simply any given set of sock puppets on two sides of an octopus and all bought and paid for.  You can vote for a pound of butter or a steak and you'e still gonna get a cow on a leash.
 
2014-02-21 09:17:19 PM  
Looks like someone didn't forget Poland this time.
 
2014-02-21 09:18:30 PM  
AOJ92C must have been denied landing rights in Dubai, as they are now out of the holding pattern and flying east of Dubai, looks like a landing may be attempted in Fujairah (a rather more obscure part of the UAE) or possibly somewhere in Oman (somewhere in Muscat, specifically).

The other plane (the Emirates Air flight) is still circling in the same holding pattern it's been for the past 15 minutes or so.
 
2014-02-21 09:23:54 PM  
I've been thinking about this all day, and I've concluded that I feel for the people that are continuing to protest.

I know I'm supposed to assume the people still pushing for change are Nazis or whatever, but I had to put myself in their shoes.

If our President was responsible for the presence of snipers on the roof of buildings in DC, shooting unarmed protesters, until 50+ were dead...I'd have a hard time waiting up to ten months to get rid of him. Wouldn't you?

The peace agreement should have included the immediate resignation of the current Ukrainian President and a bar onhim holding office in Ukraine again, in return for protection out of the country. It also should have included guaranteed international election oversight, and a blocking of Russian influence. After what Russia did to fan these flames, they damn well don't deserve a say in what happens now.

How would you like a country practically invading and corrupting yours to the point where you risked your life to protest, and then have that same country demand a say in the compromise you fought for? fark that.

I understand the Russian bullshiat situation that makes abrupt change in that part of the world a risk. But isn't that even MORE of an incentive to deal with this situation right now? If Putin's already on the phone with Obama, telling Obama that he wants to have a "say" in the peace process...after everything Putin did to fark up Ukraine...wouldn't it be good to handle things as quickly as possible, and shut Putin out as much as we can help the Ukrainians do? Giving Putin up to 10 months to use the current Ukrainian administration as puppets, especially now that Russia really sees what's on the line, seems very foolish indeed.

So yes, I feel for the Ukrainians continuing to protest. Tey surely know they're risking losing international support, and they're going ahead anyway. That's brave.
 
2014-02-21 09:24:59 PM  
We pretty much handed over our economy, which is pretty directly linked to the results/products of the work of our own hands at our jobs. What happened to it? WE ended up getting blamed for the crash by the people whose greed caused it.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories. NO ONE should for two reasons and two reasons alone:ONE: they give an illusion of understanding that can lead to textbook cases of clinical insanity, while a real understanding of the real situation goes begging for attention.

And TWO: The person {or organization} telling people these theories always has something to peddle for an inflated price. The customer ends up paying double -- not only in money but in actual emotional damage that can end up blunting the intellect.

The Ukranians don't have the overwhelmingly brain-gripping kind of media we have, and maybe that's one point in their favour.

What happened to the Ukranian economy, though? Another Farker mentioned above that the Ukraine had become something like a gigantic company town with pretty much worthless scrip.
 
2014-02-21 09:46:12 PM  
LewDux
Unlike in all other political systems, there things stay the same for centuries

Strength is not a "system".


bunner
I am not responsible for your reading comprehension being limited to that which you already believe or the narrow scope it resides in.

I think what he wants is for you need to stick to single-word answers that he can easily dismiss with shallow strawmen. For example I could say Anarchism, and I could probably think of the first two or three things I'm sure he'd say about that.


Kittypie070

This is what happens inside my head when you post

s9.postimg.org
 
2014-02-21 09:57:48 PM  
Oh my gosh.
 
2014-02-21 09:58:12 PM  
danzak
Great Porn Dragon:
AOJ92C must have been denied landing rights in Dubai, as they are now out of the holding pattern and flying east of Dubai, looks like a landing may be attempted in Fujairah (a rather more obscure part of the UAE) or possibly somewhere in Oman (somewhere in Muscat, specifically).

The other plane (the Emirates Air flight) is still circling in the same holding pattern it's been for the past 15 minutes or so.


Almost down in Dubai now.
 
2014-02-21 10:19:09 PM  

RanDomino: I think what he wants is for you need to stick to single-word answers that he can easily dismiss with shallow strawmen. For example I could say Anarchism, and I could probably think of the first two or three things I'm sure he'd say about that



Yeah, mozacklee.  And the preponderance of that ostensibly small assortment of options is precisely what I dismissed as an utter empirical failure.  Go figure.
 
2014-02-21 10:21:34 PM  
Is Yanukovich getting the hell out of Dodge?  Is anyone waiting for him in Dubai? Putin?
 
2014-02-21 10:21:47 PM  
Anarchy...is not an option.
 
2014-02-21 10:23:06 PM  
You say conspiracy, I say business plan.  History backs me up, so far.  The world has largely been defined by disingenuous cocksuckers who met behind closed doors.  The shenanigans of conniving and preposterously self important men are writ much larger than the scribblings of the psychological sciences.
 
2014-02-21 10:33:31 PM  
In 1604, everybody knew that all objects were unique and had properties that caused them to fall at different speeds, the earth was the center of the universe, and Copernicus and Aristotle figured everything out for us a long time ago and that saying otherwise was heresy, or worse, made you a 17th c.libtard, soshlist, mooslim comm'niss.  Check your iPhone 5 clock app, folks.  You best start believing in historical cautionary tales.  You're in one.
 
2014-02-21 10:33:50 PM  
That's one reason I was clear about not believing in conspiracy theory.

A business plan does not come with the cabalistic emo-peddling baggage of the loaded word "conspiracy".

It can be analyzed logically in a relatively dispassionate manner with far less wharrgarbl and derp.

To a small and clumsy extent, I understand the uses of language.
 
2014-02-21 10:36:01 PM  
You best start believing in historical cautionary tales. You're in one.

OK, now we gotta figure out the actual lessons involved here.
 
2014-02-21 10:39:19 PM  
I may be wrong, but I'm reading a lot of the objection to bunner's statements as taking issue with the lack of specifics, except the grand terms used to describe the abuses they perceive. Many of which I will even admit are valid in part or in whole. There is no mechanism of government described to curtail these abuses, not even in a narrowly defined hypothetical situation. It causes what could otherwise be an engaging offer to discuss the tendency of social structures to degenerate in oligarchy to have the appearance of anarchistic platitudes one would find being spouted in any university campus' coffee shop by your stereotypical college radical in a mass produced che t-shirt slurping cappucino from an agri-corp operation.

Simply put, how do you reverse the flow of power so that instead of aggregating it diffuses? How do you enfranchise the total population and create a universal sense of agency when it has been proven a certain segment of the population function on instincts similar to or indistinguishable from those of herd animals? If you can't enfranchise the populace universally, how do you keep highly motivated individuals with a bent towards acquiring power from manipulating the situation to their benefit?

Because democracy in it's various adulterated forms does a better job of addressing these concerns than other existing power structures thanks to the presumption of a popular will it is generally held as the golden standard, but true democracy does not exist as bunner and others so rightly pointed out, and for the reasons I believe I have expressed. How do you address them?
 
2014-02-21 10:39:54 PM  

Kittypie070: You best start believing in historical cautionary tales. You're in one.

OK, now we gotta figure out the actual lessons involved here.


Every single time too much power and wealth got concentrated into the hands of a small subset of any given population, national, regional or global, the tripped over their own hubris and woke up in the ashes of their own greed.  This is like plain as the balls on a tall dog type history.  This isn't even comparative analysis.  These are the damn bricks it's standing on.
 
2014-02-21 10:42:12 PM  

SR_NightBane: I may be wrong, but I'm reading a lot of the objection to bunner's statements as taking issue with the lack of specifics, except the grand terms used to describe the abuses they perceive.



Anybody wishing to call me for not being able to see the trees for the forest will get no argument.  Since we're up to our gazoinkies in tree experts, I'm sort of fine with it.
 
2014-02-21 10:46:28 PM  
Poland, who used cavalry to attack German tanks. Still can't figure that one out.
 
2014-02-21 10:47:34 PM  
Lemme try and explain.

Most people tend to see this, please forgive the stock art.


image.shutterstock.com 

I tend to see this.
graphics8.nytimes.com
 
2014-02-21 10:49:42 PM  

bunner: SR_NightBane: I may be wrong, but I'm reading a lot of the objection to bunner's statements as taking issue with the lack of specifics, except the grand terms used to describe the abuses they perceive.


Anybody wishing to call me for not being able to see the trees for the forest will get no argument.  Since we're up to our gazoinkies in tree experts, I'm sort of fine with it.


But, you see, when you do that it tends to poison the discussion. You use, and I'm certain you are aware of it since you seem a bright individual, rather toxic terms. In and of itself that is fine but as Le Bon pointed out, crowds are creatures of emotion, so when you stir up that sort of emotion it tends to send the rabble scurrying toward the loud, authoritative voices on the extremes on either side of a debate,
 
2014-02-21 10:54:35 PM  

SR_NightBane: But, you see, when you do that it tends to poison the discussion. You use, and I'm certain you are aware of it since you seem a bright individual, rather toxic terms. In and of itself that is fine but as Le Bon pointed out, crowds are creatures of emotion, so when you stir up that sort of emotion it tends to send the rabble scurrying toward the loud, authoritative voices on the extremes on either side of a debate,


The toxicity is in the described methods.  Any vitriol I may spit is aimed squarely at the people shoving our noses into one tree at a time and reminding us we better get very concerned about that tree.  I'm relatively certain that I couldn't send anybody scurrying william nor nilliam to any ends whatsoever if there were a 7-11 or a RedBox in between their start point and their freedom.
 
2014-02-21 10:58:36 PM  
Kittypie070
Anarchy...is not an option.

Sadly, you may be right in this case. The Ukrainian Anarchists have spirit and the skeletons of good organizations (both figuratively and literally), but apparently too few, disorganized, and insular to make hay from this situation.


SR_NightBane
Simply put, how do you reverse the flow of power so that instead of aggregating it diffuses? How do you enfranchise the total population and create a universal sense of agency when it has been proven a certain segment of the population function on instincts similar to or indistinguishable from those of herd animals? If you can't enfranchise the populace universally, how do you keep highly motivated individuals with a bent towards acquiring power from manipulating the situation to their benefit?

I'm a fan of a prefigurative strategy of taking personal risk, challenging everyday authority and coercion, and winning small victories in order to make people feel shame of their weakness and to inspire them with the possibility of resistance so that they too might become willing to rediscover their own strength. The key idea that I've only recently been understanding is that old standards of honor played an important role in organizing Stateless societies, and still exist among people who believe themselves more civilized than that (or who believe nothing at all). Community comes from trust and trust comes from consistent success over time. Unfortunately, there are many who still feel that self-serving activism and hooliganism are somehow productive, when what we need is to be building upstanding community, but I'm working on them.
 
2014-02-21 11:00:38 PM  

Krustofsky: Is Yanukovich getting the hell out of Dodge?  Is anyone waiting for him in Dubai? Putin?


Rumors are it's Fujairah Airport in UAE now. Wherever he lands (*if* he was on one of those airplanes), he has enough Ukrainian money in his pockets. That's why the Ukrainian's have none in theirs.
 
2014-02-21 11:06:50 PM  

RanDomino: I'm a fan of a prefigurative strategy of taking personal risk, challenging everyday authority and coercion, and winning small victories in order to make people feel shame of their weakness and to inspire them with the possibility of resistance so that they too might become willing to rediscover their own strength.


And that is a noble stance, but unfortunately, it's also about 40 mid budget Hollywood movies.  All of our heroes have already been cast in celluloid and disposed of after they save the world and the credits roll.  Dignity, unity, decency and the public interest have long been relegated to cinematic devices and unless there's a couple of ARRI Alexas pointed at you and a green screen to stand in front of, nobody cares.
 
2014-02-21 11:11:01 PM  

RanDomino: SR_NightBane
Simply put, how do you reverse the flow of power so that instead of aggregating it diffuses? How do you enfranchise the total population and create a universal sense of agency when it has been proven a certain segment of the population function on instincts similar to or indistinguishable from those of herd animals? If you can't enfranchise the populace universally, how do you keep highly motivated individuals with a bent towards acquiring power from manipulating the situation to their benefit?

I'm a fan of a prefigurative strategy of taking personal risk, challenging everyday authority and coercion, and winning small victories in order to make people feel shame of their weakness and to inspire them with the possibility of resistance so that they too might become willing to rediscover their own strength. The key idea that I've only recently been understanding is that old standards of honor played an important role in organizing Stateless societies, and still exist among people who believe themselves more civilized than that (or who believe nothing at all). Community comes from trust and trust comes from consistent success over time. Unfortunately, there are many who still feel that self-serving activism and hooliganism are somehow productive, when what we need is to be building upstanding community, but I'm working on them.


An interesting philosophy and one I'm not even entirely opposed to. No, in fact I have a great deal of sympathy for it, the problem as you identify it is one of self serving activism yes, but also one of how to translate the concept of a social contract based in honorable action in to a larger movement. It is my experience that given isolated examples one man or woman here or there can be roused to change their own behavior but it is the masses which are used as the bulwark of the system, their inertia and resistance to change. They resist change of course because it is a hard thing, often a bloody thing, and frightening because so often the end results are unknown.

The obvious answer is to create an organized movement, some sort of group to promote an ideal, but then the macro issue of avoiding a small inner circle self-serving individuals taking advantage of the gravity of power to elevate themselves can be applied to the very body created to address that issue. Trust me, I don't believe this justifies inaction, like yourself I seek to live and embody the change I preach. I even write about this issue somewhat regularly to try and sway others to the cause but there does seem to be an issue of translating individual action to transformative movement.
 
2014-02-21 11:16:12 PM  
Social change is like sex.  You gotta wanna or it's no fun.  You wanna change sh*t?  Make people WANT to change sh*t more than they want a Dolce and Gabbana or a new Bently.  And as long as we think that if we arrive at the barb wire fenced in peak of the dunghill with nicer stuff than those "peons", that we R teh winzors, less chance of that happening, there ain't.
 
2014-02-21 11:16:42 PM  
*sniffs the apparent buzzword "hooliganism" with extreme care*
 
2014-02-21 11:18:12 PM  
Damn. I've gotten caught up in yet another mental trap by sniffing a single word.
 
2014-02-21 11:29:08 PM  
bunner
And that is a noble stance, but unfortunately, it's also about 40 mid budget Hollywood movies. All of our heroes have already been cast in celluloid and disposed of after they save the world and the credits roll. Dignity, unity, decency and the public interest have long been relegated to cinematic devices and unless there's a couple of ARRI Alexas pointed at you and a green screen to stand in front of, nobody cares.

Your big-picture view is working against you. We don't need a one-size-fits-all fix or a mass movement. We need a couple million little movements, which gradually come together.
 
2014-02-21 11:30:39 PM  
Kittypie070
*sniffs the apparent buzzword "hooliganism" with extreme care*

People who seem to think that fighting cops and smashing windows are ends unto themselves.
 
2014-02-21 11:33:42 PM  

RanDomino: Your big-picture view is working against you. We don't need a one-size-fits-all fix or a mass movement. We need a couple million little movements, which gradually come together.


under what auspices?  By whose interests?  through what not wholly owned and monitored comm network or method?  Bake sale, feel good activism can cheer you up, but it seldom gains without focus.  Here's an idea for a "bunch of small movements" with a large scale focus.  Leviathans are filter feeders.  They take in billions, 3.99 at a time.  Shut their food supply off, 3.99 at a time.
 
2014-02-21 11:34:53 PM  
I have just opened the 5 канал - ефір наживо YouTube livestream.

Here is a link to the Maidan Hotspot if anyone wishes to watch.
 
2014-02-21 11:35:29 PM  

RanDomino: Kittypie070
*sniffs the apparent buzzword "hooliganism" with extreme care*

People who seem to think that fighting cops and smashing windows are ends unto themselves.


Much like the people who think that shoving everything useful thing on earth into their garage and building a fence around it is "winning".
 
2014-02-21 11:42:17 PM  

Deep Contact: Poland, who used cavalry to attack German tanks. Still can't figure that one out.


Don't try, it didn't happen.
 
2014-02-21 11:47:27 PM  
Look, here's how I see it. RanDomino and bunner are both correct.

The vital point, whether it's a mass movement or a huge gathering of smaller movements, is to concentrate on a mutually agreed SMALL set of FOCUSED targets.

In smaller words, pick your battles.

Pick them very very carefully and make sure you have a decent chance of winning them.

OWS made their biggest tactical stumble by attempting to put a whole pile of smaller, disparate, unrelated causes into their What Is The One Thing We Want basket.

I was one tiny mew in a vast sea of confused shouting.
 
2014-02-21 11:54:29 PM  
bunner
under what auspices?

Is that necessary?

By whose interests?

Well I sure don't personally know everyone in the entire world.

through what not wholly owned and monitored comm network or method?

Still thinking too top-down.


Kittypie070
In smaller words, pick your battles.

Pick them very very carefully and make sure you have a decent chance of winning them.

OWS made their biggest tactical stumble by attempting to put a whole pile of smaller, disparate, unrelated causes into their What Is The One Thing We Want basket.


*headscratch*
 
2014-02-21 11:55:31 PM  
cutearoo.com
 
2014-02-21 11:55:54 PM  
 
2014-02-22 12:04:25 AM  
*headscratch*

*burble*

....and back on Espreso TV - LIVE, someone was making a speech. I think it might be "Angry Guy". The voice is similar at least.

Ahh, they're doing some looking back.

There's the Berkut helmet&shield-stacking scene....
 
2014-02-22 12:05:27 AM  
Berkut or cops. Hard to tell at the moment.
 
2014-02-22 12:13:09 AM  
Just after 7 in Kyiv.

Less than 3 hours before protestors act on their ultimatum

"Either force the president's resignation by 10 a.m. tomorrow and renounce your deal with Yanukovych or opposition troops will advance to the government headquarters."
 
2014-02-22 12:31:24 AM  
Ohhhh one thing you do NOT do is create martyrs, Yanu you farking dimwit.

Nice going.

In about a century, those people you had shot by your little sniper wusses are gonna be elevated to sainthood.
 
2014-02-22 01:15:25 AM  
I went hunting, and I do believe I've found another livestream on YT.

Громадське ONLINE
 
2014-02-22 01:31:30 AM  
Compilation of Lenin statues coming down across Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBTG7PBcDw
 
2014-02-22 02:03:30 AM  
well it just rang 9 AM over there.
 
2014-02-22 02:05:06 AM  
Громадське ONLINE
- one more hour to go.
 
2014-02-22 02:21:11 AM  
The Espreso feed is showing Maidan.  Now there's a stack of announcements for people looking for each, camp work needing volunteers, money being sent from different parts of the country, and other directions.  The guy doesn't see very well and it's difficult reading in the handwritten notes.
 
2014-02-22 02:36:21 AM  
Naatje: Compilation of Lenin statues coming down across Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBTG7PBcDw


Wow, that is just as surreal as it can be.
 
2014-02-22 02:42:30 AM  
whoa, a big ol cheer just went up a moment ago. I'm looking at the Espreso feed.
 
2014-02-22 02:42:39 AM  
Klitschko just said he's going to Verkhovna Rada to push forward a measure to impeach Yanukovich.
 
2014-02-22 02:46:08 AM  

Kittypie070: Ohhhh one thing you do NOT do is create martyrs, Yanu you farking dimwit.

Nice going.

In about a century, those people you had shot by your little sniper wusses are gonna be elevated to sainthood.


Yeah, like all those medics the Vietcong sniped.

Oh, wait, not only don't we remember their names, we pretend today that they never even existed, because that was the price we had to pay to reconcile with the winners of the Vietnam War.

/and when Putin tells us that Olesia Zhukovska never existed, we will forget her too
 
2014-02-22 02:55:39 AM  
These two priests are singing up there on the stage. I...guess they're blessing the crowd as well.

It sounds oddly melancholy only because I don't understand the language.
 
2014-02-22 03:01:53 AM  
And it's one minute after 10 AM in Kiev.
 
2014-02-22 03:04:19 AM  
Verkhovna Rada is now meeting and there are now reports that Yanukovich never landed in Kharkiv after leaving Kyiv last night.
 
2014-02-22 04:02:04 AM  
Uh-oh, there went the Espreso TV link on YouTube. Technical problems, allegedly.

Switching to Громадське ONLINE.
 
2014-02-22 04:08:14 AM  
I'm calling it a night here on Fark but leaving the live feed open, g'nights all.

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2014-02-22 04:12:04 AM  
Well, according to BBC coverage, it looks like nobody has much idea where the Ukrainian head of state is. No more riot police either. People are wandering around "empty" government buildings. That must be surreal.
 
2014-02-22 04:27:27 AM  
Anyone notice bullet impacts in this here video (I have to ask)? Around 0:19, you can see 2 trees that run through the middle of the screen. The one closest to the men is being hit (white dot suddenly appears).

The next video is filmed from exactly the same location, and is filming in the same direction. At 0:56, the camera is pointing toward the top of an incline, and this time, it is clear that the bullet is coming from the right. This means that the sniper must have been shooting from an elevated location (because there is a small wall, see here).
Since there are too many trees in the way for the sniper to have been in or on another building, I think the sniper must have been *in* the hotel, more specifically the South wing. There is also a steel fire ladder that runs to the top of the roof, which could serve as an escape route.

All this may be the reason why so many guys were shot: they thought the sniper was in front of them, while in reality he was in or around the Ukraine Hotel --from where this and the next video was shot (there was also a search for a sniper, on I think multiple times).
 
2014-02-22 04:43:22 AM  
I'm afraid that those responsible for the shootings will escape justice.

Live updates from Kyiv Post on developments in Ukraine:
 
2014-02-22 04:58:23 AM  
Ustym Golodnyuk, a 19-year-old Democratic Alliance volunteer, was shot dead by a sniper early on Feb. 20.

Medics took his body from the street to the main floor of Ukraina Hotel, which had been turned into a makeshift medical center, where his father later identified him.

"I do not know whether (President Viktor) Yanukovych has to stand in front of me on his knees, but I know exactly that he has to be brought in front of the international tribunal for what he did to my country and to my son," Democratic Alliance reported Golodnyuk's father as saying.


They won't forget, they will NEVER forget, they have very long memories, and someone will pursue Yanujerkoff to the ends of the earth.

also, espreso live is operational again in YouTube
 
2014-02-22 05:11:30 AM  

Kittypie070: Ustym Golodnyuk, a 19-year-old Democratic Alliance volunteer, was shot dead by a sniper early on Feb. 20.


He wore a blue helmet, and told his father he didn't have to be afraid for him, because "he had the magic blue UN helmet, nothing would happen to him" ... . I think Ustym is in the videos that I posted, you can see him carried off.
The reports about his father removing the blanket covering his face and discovering the blue helmet are heart-wrenching:

farm4.staticflickr.com

Source: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-fe b-21-live-updates-337287.html?flavour=mobile ("The father of Ustym Golodnyuk points to a bullet hole in the helmet his son wore during the clashes after identifying his son's body on Feb. 20.")
 
2014-02-22 05:11:44 AM  
Map of faceplanting Lenin monuments

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-02-22 05:24:25 AM  
Poor Ukrainians.  They're thinking too top down.  *snort*
 
2014-02-22 05:32:25 AM  
If the Ukrainian president really is in Kharkiv attempting to break the east off into a separate, Russia-backed country, he should be hanged for treason.
 
2014-02-22 05:38:57 AM  

supageil: If the Ukrainian president really is in Kharkiv attempting to break the east off into a separate, Russia-backed country, he should be hanged for treason.


He'll be lynched, shot, or (worst case?), stand trial in the Hague. He's done more than that wrong.


On a lighter note: MEN vs. Berkut - "Fight!" (I promise, it's on topic but funny).
 
2014-02-22 05:51:12 AM  
They're inside the palace I think; they're finding documents in the river, a hovercraft, a 60's classic car (?), ... . Anyone have a stream of that camera?

Ceaușescu, Saddam, Mubarak, Gaddafi, others; meet Yanukovych.
 
2014-02-22 05:53:12 AM  

flexflint: They're inside the palace I think; they're finding documents in the river, a hovercraft, a 60's classic car (?), ... . Anyone have a stream of that camera?

Ceaușescu, Saddam, Mubarak, Gaddafi, others; meet Yanukovych.


A giant hall with boats ... .
 
2014-02-22 06:00:48 AM  

flexflint: A giant hall with boats ... .


They kept filming people on streets somewhere for the last hour or so, and it's only now that I realize this is the compound of Yanukovich ... well at least I think it is, it looks huge.
 
2014-02-22 06:03:56 AM  
"Lviv meets the Heroes of celestial Hundreds ... Night 22.02.2014"

farm4.staticflickr.com

from: https://twitter.com/mikekomar/status/437009234400534528

Also:
@myroslavapetsa Rada about to introduce Roma statute in #Ukraine. If that happens, #Yanukovych and his gang to face trials in the Hague
 
2014-02-22 06:21:15 AM  
List of bribed cops, or people to bribe:

pbs.twimg.com


Fotos of journalist Tanya Chornovol and (I think) instructions on how to "handle" her (Google it, she was beaten up very bad a few times):
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=744191065593018


@olgatokariuk: first pics arriving from what was before today #Yanukovich luxury residence in Mezhygirya
pbs.twimg.com
pbs.twimg.com
things going fast now, also in parliament
 
2014-02-22 06:40:21 AM  
In some regions, people celebrating, everyone on streets. Kharkiv situation fluid.
Traffic jams toward residence Yanukovych.
Uptick expected in braided hairdo's, Tymoshenko legally free.
 
2014-02-22 06:47:08 AM  
@gkates: At Kharkiv meeting: "If there are men here...let's organize the battalions...long live the Soviet Army!"

pbs.twimg.com

This thing is far from over.
 
2014-02-22 07:05:36 AM  
dozing kity listen to the sounds of votes, cheering and singing in the streets.

joy but with a shadow stalking it

in the background I think...tanks, tanks from that bastard Poot.

when? maybe inside the week?
 
2014-02-22 07:38:55 AM  
Last column in dollars:

fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net


Documents showing "black" accounts. Payments to traffic police. Hundreds of thousands of dollars received from "investors".
Purchases of sniper rifles. Special "employees". Big payments, small payments. Going about a decade back.

farm8.staticflickr.com

Folders they tried to burn. Info on "dangerous" people. Journalists, MP's, civil activists.
 
2014-02-22 08:34:58 AM  

flexflint: They're inside the palace I think; they're finding documents in the river, a hovercraft, a 60's classic car (?), ... . Anyone have a stream of that camera?

Ceaușescu, Saddam, Mubarak, Gaddafi, others; meet Yanukovych.


Can't believe Mubarak is still alive.

Here's the BBC stream with tweets: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26302572
 
2014-02-22 08:39:46 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: Men of the Cloth standing between armed riot police and the People ..

[www.themalaymailonline.com image 600x430]

.. let's see you go do that ..


And this is the difference between christianity, and islam.

A priest will stand in front of certain doom and call for peace.

A Imam will sit in a mosque and call for war.
 
2014-02-22 09:00:08 AM  
 
2014-02-22 09:14:21 AM  

flexflint: Last column in dollars:

[fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net image 600x800]


Documents showing "black" accounts. Payments to traffic police. Hundreds of thousands of dollars received from "investors".
Purchases of sniper rifles. Special "employees". Big payments, small payments. Going about a decade back.

[farm8.staticflickr.com image 640x480]

Folders they tried to burn. Info on "dangerous" people. Journalists, MP's, civil activists.


Ahh, the "journalist blacklist".

The mark of petty dictators everywhere. For shame.
 
2014-02-22 09:27:09 AM  

supageil: Ahh, the "journalist blacklist".

The mark of petty dictators everywhere. For shame.


Amazing really how similar these dictator stories are.
We should start a thread with over/unders on who's going to be next. My vote is on Belarus, then pootie poot.
 
2014-02-22 10:07:08 AM  

atomicmask: Clemkadidlefark: Men of the Cloth standing between armed riot police and the People ..

[www.themalaymailonline.com image 600x430]

.. let's see you go do that ..

And this is the difference between christianity, and islam.

A priest will stand in front of certain doom and call for peace.

A Imam will sit in a mosque and call for war.


Yea, those evil Mooselimbs.
 
2014-02-22 11:41:56 AM  
Oh. This is what I wake up to??

Someone is snivellling like a little Yanukovych about the ooo scary warlike muslims for the 8,978,342,855,826,205th time.

Doesn't being afraid every minute of every day for an entire decade because you have been ORDERED to be afraid by the teevee box get even the slightest bit boring?

What an outstandingly courageous Real Jesus-AmericanTM you must be.
 
2014-02-22 12:26:40 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Marcus Aurelius: Rolling back the constitution to 2004 and getting Tymoshenko out of prison is the most they can hope for at this point.

Don't say that too loud, or the GOP will want to roll ours back to version 1.0


Was that the one written by God?
 
2014-02-22 01:55:00 PM  

zimbomba63: Deep Contact: Poland, who used cavalry to attack German tanks. Still can't figure that one out.

Don't try, it didn't happen.


It was in a book by Sven Hassel, a German tank soldier, who described this.
 
2014-02-22 02:03:59 PM  
So, what have we learned.

By and large, the rule of men couldn't run a dry cleaners, let alone mass governance, because there's always somebody willing to throw somebody else under a bus if it mans they can get More™.


No matter what flavor of bread and circuses or blatant oppression you hand out, you can only sh*t on so many people for  so long and then they're going to dismantles your ass.


It can't happen here.
 
2014-02-22 02:07:36 PM  

Deep Contact: Poland, who used cavalry to attack German tanks. Still can't figure that one out.


Interestingly they used same horses to attack that radio station
 
2014-02-22 02:07:57 PM  
and d., I can't type.  :  )
 
2014-02-22 02:52:02 PM  

Deep Contact: zimbomba63: Deep Contact: Poland, who used cavalry to attack German tanks. Still can't figure that one out.

Don't try, it didn't happen.

It was in a book by Sven Hassel, a German tank soldier, who described this.


As far as I know, Poland had fast anti-tank units on the base of cavalry. Cavalry regiments were armed with anti-tank weapons (mostly anti-tank rifles and light anti-tank guns) - an idea was to have fast units able to quickly move to the point where armors attack and resist them.

Their anti-tank weaponry wasn't heavy enough to punch through the German armor, but at least it wasn't, you know, pikes and sabres.

I can't be sure that it was the cavalry described, of course, but that's what I've read when I was reading about pre-war development of anti-tank weapons and tactics.
 
2014-02-22 05:36:47 PM  
*sits on bunner's keyboard*
 
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