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(Daily Mail)   The wife of Scientologist leader David Miscavige isn't missing. She's being held by force at a secret Scientology compound without contact with the outside world after questioning her husband's infallibility. See, very different   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 201
    More: Asinine, Sea Org, David Miscavige, Leah Remini, Scientology, Mike Rinder  
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14611 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Feb 2014 at 2:32 AM (26 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



201 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-02-21 12:06:39 AM
Somebody hold down Subby, it's time for grammar and punctuation auditing.
 
2014-02-21 12:11:47 AM
How is it the organization that broke into IRS offices gets to be tax exempt, again?
 
2014-02-21 12:12:14 AM
If ever a cult needed to be Wacoed...
 
2014-02-21 12:19:50 AM
They probably dropped her into a volcano.
 
2014-02-21 12:48:47 AM
I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?
 
2014-02-21 02:36:45 AM

Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?


I think it's pretty easy to explain.

In the beginning, you're lured in by the very bootstrappy mindset of tackling your own problems and taking control of your life. At this point, there's a lot of support for you from other members, so you begin to develop an attachment to them and grow uncomfortable with outsiders who begin to be seen as people who will weigh you down. My guess is that most people stay at this level for the entirety of their religious life with them.

After a while, you've learned techniques that allow you to control your emotions and this empowers you to act in very aggressive ways without getting caught up in your own sense of humility or empathy. People are there to be used, and you are there to use them. It preys on the tendency of people to go along and get along. The truly sociopathic make it to this level and stay there becoming more sociopathic.

Along the way, you've unwittingly (or wittingly) been divulging your secrets to the church, and any attempt to break away is thwarted by the threat of blackmail or worse.

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.
 
2014-02-21 02:43:48 AM
Scientology: the tolerant 'religion'.  It's like Christians feeding their own to the lions, without the need for Romans.
 
2014-02-21 02:44:50 AM

Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?


This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.
 
2014-02-21 02:47:34 AM
if only there were some sort of bureau that could federally investigate this

/who ya gonna call
 
2014-02-21 02:48:28 AM
AverageAmericanGuy:

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.

Except that, unlike every other religion, you have to pay through the teeth for the enlightenment. If you go to  a Rabbi and ask him about Judaism, he'll gladly talk to you for free. Same with every priest, pastor, imam, priestess or whatever you want. Many will happily give you information, maybe even a copy of their holy books--which, incidentally, can also be found in any library, or openly for sale. In Scientology, you have to pay for the books, which cannot be found anywhere else and are not sold to outsiders.  If you feel awful and need to talk, Pastor is there for you. In Scientology, you have to pay. And pay, and pay, and pay. It's not at all unusual to hear of people who sank several hundred thousand dollars into it.
 
2014-02-21 02:49:55 AM
David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.
 
2014-02-21 02:52:25 AM

Khazar-Khum: AverageAmericanGuy:

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.

Except that, unlike every other religion, you have to pay through the teeth for the enlightenment. If you go to  a Rabbi and ask him about Judaism, he'll gladly talk to you for free. Same with every priest, pastor, imam, priestess or whatever you want. Many will happily give you information, maybe even a copy of their holy books--which, incidentally, can also be found in any library, or openly for sale. In Scientology, you have to pay for the books, which cannot be found anywhere else and are not sold to outsiders.  If you feel awful and need to talk, Pastor is there for you. In Scientology, you have to pay. And pay, and pay, and pay. It's not at all unusual to hear of people who sank several hundred thousand dollars into it.


And a professor of English may love to chat with you about Shakespeare on Sunday afternoons at the park, but if you really want to learn at a deep level you're going to have to pay up.

You ever see how much college costs these days?
 
2014-02-21 02:53:51 AM

2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.


No David Miscavige is his wife's missing head
 
2014-02-21 02:55:49 AM

Old enough to know better: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.


It's no more ridiculous than a lot of other religions. It's just easier to trace the shiat back to the bull it came from in Scientology's case.
 
2014-02-21 02:58:30 AM
A man can be his own wife now? What a country!
 
2014-02-21 02:58:42 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: And a professor of English may love to chat with you about Shakespeare on Sunday afternoons at the park, but if you really want to learn at a deep level you're going to have to pay up.


Not unless the professor was alive during Shakespeare's time and knew Shakespeare.. I wouldn't pay a dime.

So-called experts, on such people, are SWAG a good part of the time.
 
2014-02-21 03:02:17 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

I think it's pretty easy to explain.

In the beginning, you're lured in by the very bootstrappy mindset of tackling your own problems and taking control of your life. At this point, there's a lot of support for you from other members, so you begin to develop an attachment to them and grow uncomfortable with outsiders who begin to be seen as people who will weigh you down. My guess is that most people stay at this level for the entirety of their religious life with them.

After a while, you've learned techniques that allow you to control your emotions and this empowers you to act in very aggressive ways without getting caught up in your own sense of humility or empathy. People are there to be used, and you are there to use them. It preys on the tendency of people to go along and get along. The truly sociopathic make it to this level and stay there becoming more sociopathic.

Along the way, you've unwittingly (or wittingly) been divulging your secrets to the church, and any attempt to break away is thwarted by the threat of blackmail or worse.

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.


People are stupid.


/just kidding, that was a very insightful answer
//people really are stupid
 
2014-02-21 03:02:34 AM
See very different

Been far? Decided to use?
 
2014-02-21 03:04:18 AM
Orly? Well, let me respond; this is my surprised face....
 
2014-02-21 03:05:26 AM
I'm still waiting for Scientology to release the details of Leah Remini's lurid experimentations into lesbianism and chocolate syrup wrestling.
 
2014-02-21 03:05:54 AM
That headline was indeed very different.
 
2014-02-21 03:06:59 AM

ransack.: 2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.

No David Miscavige is his wife's missing head


But what about the severed head of Arnold Palmer?
 
2014-02-21 03:08:36 AM

Old enough to know better: This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?


Jesus was an alien*

*actual subtext of the movie Prometheus
 
2014-02-21 03:10:23 AM

Khazar-Khum: AverageAmericanGuy:

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.

Except that, unlike every other religion, you have to pay through the teeth for the enlightenment. If you go to  a Rabbi and ask him about Judaism, he'll gladly talk to you for free. Same with every priest, pastor, imam, priestess or whatever you want. Many will happily give you information, maybe even a copy of their holy books--which, incidentally, can also be found in any library, or openly for sale. In Scientology, you have to pay for the books, which cannot be found anywhere else and are not sold to outsiders.  If you feel awful and need to talk, Pastor is there for you. In Scientology, you have to pay. And pay, and pay, and pay. It's not at all unusual to hear of people who sank several hundred thousand dollars into it.


Hell, Bob only asks for $30, and he offers triple money back in the event that you don't happen to get eternal salvation.
 
2014-02-21 03:12:35 AM

ransack.: 2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.

No David Miscavige is his wife's missing head


What's in the box?  What's in the f*cking box?!!
 
2014-02-21 03:14:18 AM

2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.


Are you sure that's right? I'm thinking subby was actually trying to say:

Scientologist David Miscavige isn't missing wife's head.
 
x23
2014-02-21 03:15:28 AM
how short is Miscavige if he is being dwarfed by the 5'7" Tom Cruise? what is he? like 4'11" or something?

i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2014-02-21 03:15:40 AM
I was wondering why this guy's wife was called David. Glad to see it has been addressed already.
 
2014-02-21 03:15:49 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: If ever a cult needed to be Wacoed...


They're just living, breathing examples for the legalization of unrestricted drone strikes.
 
2014-02-21 03:28:14 AM

Old enough to know better: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.


A religion with aliens would actually make more sense than the Bible. The real problem with Scientology is that it's way too new so it doesn't have the mythical mystique of the ancient religions have. It's the same issue Mormons have and more people think those two religion are cults than the traditional religions.
 
2014-02-21 03:31:57 AM
I felt bad for the cat in the photo.
 
2014-02-21 03:37:23 AM
So, the guy who runs Scientolology's wife won't give him head?

Maybe that's why he hangs with Tom Cruise....
 
2014-02-21 03:40:37 AM
david muffcabbage
 
2014-02-21 03:43:33 AM

TheJoe03: A religion with aliens would actually make more sense than the Bible. The real problem with Scientology is that it's way too new so it doesn't have the mythical mystique of the ancient religions have. It's the same issue Mormons have and more people think those two religion are cults than the traditional religions.


I don't think it is mystique so much as the fact that we don't really know a lot about the authors of the Bible except the whitewashed history from their followers, but we KNOW that L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith were both con men who we shouldn't trust further than we can throw them.
 
2014-02-21 03:46:26 AM

ransack.: It's no more ridiculous than a lot of other religions.


That phrase seems to be dragged out every time someone mentions Scientology. I think it's about time that it was put to rest.

Most religions come from a mixture of folk tales and basic survival rules passed down generation to generation over hundreds of years, and mangled a bit during the journey. They're pretty much what you'd expect any ancient mythology to be after such a long passage of time, warts and all. There is likely to be some nugget of truth at their core, even if the content has been "made better" so many times, that it's about as historically accurate as the tales of Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan and John Henry.

Scientology is bullsh*t through and through. Hubbard created it as a bar bet, wrote it down exactly as it is, and it therefore has no excuse.
 
2014-02-21 03:47:34 AM

Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?


Same reason anyone joins any other religion.  They're either indoctrinated in early childhood into whatever the local religion happens to be, or they're "converted" by people who pretend to be their friends -- and sometimes actually are their friends -- in a time of personal weakness or upheaval.
 
2014-02-21 03:48:07 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Khazar-Khum: AverageAmericanGuy:

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.

Except that, unlike every other religion, you have to pay through the teeth for the enlightenment. If you go to  a Rabbi and ask him about Judaism, he'll gladly talk to you for free. Same with every priest, pastor, imam, priestess or whatever you want. Many will happily give you information, maybe even a copy of their holy books--which, incidentally, can also be found in any library, or openly for sale. In Scientology, you have to pay for the books, which cannot be found anywhere else and are not sold to outsiders.  If you feel awful and need to talk, Pastor is there for you. In Scientology, you have to pay. And pay, and pay, and pay. It's not at all unusual to hear of people who sank several hundred thousand dollars into it.

And a professor of English may love to chat with you about Shakespeare on Sunday afternoons at the park, but if you really want to learn at a deep level you're going to have to pay up.

You ever see how much college costs these days?


All the information about shakespeare is available at low cost. You can walk into any bookstore with $100 and walk out with the (annotated) collected works. You can study the shiat out of those, in combination with hundreds of online fora, where people are willing to have in depth discussions, it isn't hard to become an expert. I'm pretty sure that there are enough free resources on good ol' Bill to keep people learning for years.

Scientology won't even tell you about Xenu before you have a few (tens of) thousands dollars invested in the "religion".
 
mhd
2014-02-21 03:53:04 AM

Gyrfalcon: They're just living, breathing examples for the legalization of unrestricted drone strikes.


Can we make the drones look like B-52s?
 
2014-02-21 03:59:02 AM
I read that as:   'Tiny cult dude dungeoned his beard the instant he met slightly-less-vertically-challenged Tom Cruise so tiny cult dude could make with the woowoo love talk in Tomster's sound holes without bearded lady threatening to call Ronnie on planet Xenu every five seconds.'

/oops.jpg
 
2014-02-21 03:59:58 AM

Mad_Radhu: TheJoe03: A religion with aliens would actually make more sense than the Bible. The real problem with Scientology is that it's way too new so it doesn't have the mythical mystique of the ancient religions have. It's the same issue Mormons have and more people think those two religion are cults than the traditional religions.

I don't think it is mystique so much as the fact that we don't really know a lot about the authors of the Bible except the whitewashed history from their followers, but we KNOW that L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith were both con men who we shouldn't trust further than we can throw them.


That's kind of what I mean, it's so old that we know little about the authors and it seems more mysterious and mystical just based on the fact that it was written so long ago. If the Bible came out right now it would not be followed by many people.
 
2014-02-21 04:02:42 AM

Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?


Think of it like an extremely bad, extremely expensive MMO. It starts off fun, but progressively, imperceptibly, the grind increases, the micropayments increase, and every time you level up it becomes that much harder for you want to leave. A few brain wash cycles later and you're head banging cult member.
 
2014-02-21 04:04:15 AM

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: How is it the organization that broke into IRS offices gets to be tax exempt, again?


The only difference between a cult and a religion is time and money.
 
2014-02-21 04:06:24 AM

Cosmic_Music: if only there were some sort of bureau that could federally investigate this

/who ya gonna call


Yes, I'm sure after the IRS was called out for investigating groups whose primary purpose was to avoid paying taxes, they'll try and challenge the tax-exempt status of a religious organization.  I'm sure no one will have a problem with that.
 
2014-02-21 04:10:28 AM

IlGreven: Cosmic_Music: if only there were some sort of bureau that could federally investigate this

/who ya gonna call

Yes, I'm sure after the IRS was called out for investigating groups whose primary purpose was to avoid paying taxes, they'll try and challenge the tax-exempt status of a religious organization.  I'm sure no one will have a problem with that.


Emphasis mine.....

/Granted, now I kinda want to know what we'd call a federal organization that was the BFI....
 
2014-02-21 04:12:57 AM

Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?


I give you one of their "you must be a pedophile" routine but I don't have it in me. Just check some of the YouTube vids of people trying to ask questions. They're not pleasant once they get entrenched. In a strange bit of projection, they become what they'd call repressive personalities.
 
2014-02-21 04:13:34 AM

Khazar-Khum: Except that, unlike every other religion, you have to pay through the teeth for the enlightenment. If you go to  a Rabbi and ask him about Judaism, he'll gladly talk to you for free. Same with every priest, pastor, imam, priestess or whatever you want. Many will happily give you information, maybe even a copy of their holy books--which, incidentally, can also be found in any library, or openly for sale. In Scientology, you have to pay for the books, which cannot be found anywhere else and are not sold to outsiders.  If you feel awful and need to talk, Pastor is there for you. In Scientology, you have to pay. And pay, and pay, and pay. It's not at all unusual to hear of people who sank several hundred thousand dollars into it


So what you are saying is that it is an esoteric religion, that takes money up front, rather than for example Christian religions which mostly are already so rich they can take the risk and mostly get paid when their marks die and give the church lots of money in their wills? And they are more recent so their origins as a scam to enrich and empower the people running the religion haven't had long enough to be obscured?


/mostly not being serious
 
2014-02-21 04:13:36 AM

mhd: Gyrfalcon: They're just living, breathing examples for the legalization of unrestricted drone strikes.

Can we make the drones look like B-52s?


No, Hemet has got some pretty beautiful mountains and is in the middle of a National Forest.  With as little rain that California has had, it would lead to a massive wildfire.

However, we could turn in into an amusement park in the vein of  The Most Dangerous Game.  That way, instead of spending money on it, we can make money.

It's a win/win solution.
 
2014-02-21 04:17:05 AM

x23: how short is Miscavige if he is being dwarfed by the 5'7" Tom Cruise? what is he? like 4'11" or something?

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x464]


Is Cruise really 5'7? Does he wear platform heels in all his movies? How does he get to all his movie sets from way out in the Shire?
 
2014-02-21 04:27:16 AM

mhd: Gyrfalcon: They're just living, breathing examples for the legalization of unrestricted drone strikes.

Can we make the drones look like B-52s DC8s?


FTFXenu.
 
2014-02-21 04:29:21 AM
So, all one has to do to avoid a missing persons charge is say "They're not really missing, just held secretly, trust our word on that!". I wonder why nobody has ever tried that before.
 
2014-02-21 04:35:51 AM
AverageAmericanGuy:
And a professor of English may love to chat with you about Shakespeare on Sunday afternoons at the park, but if you really want to learn at a deep level you're going to have to pay up.

You ever see how much college costs these days?


You haven't met many professors, have you? Every professor I've ever met is willing to expound at length on their specialty, because they love it and want others to love it. Ask nicely, and you might even be able to take the class for free. It's the registrars who are the real jerks, because unless they get theirs, there's no proof you took the class.

You don't pay a university for the knowledge. You pay for the proof you got the knowledge. The knowledge can be had for free.
 
2014-02-21 04:38:38 AM
Can we talk about how this guy's wife is possibly being tortured in solitary confinement right now, for all we know? In a compound surrounded by razor wire fences and assumably armed guards? They are so insular and secretive I don't think even the federal gov would try to gain access to see what they're up to.

Also, as mentioned upthread, they don't tell people anything about aliens. Not unless you advance to the highest levels, after years of loyally paying tens of thousands. When newbies walk in they talk self-help about reducing stress, dealing with emotion etc. The gullible are taken in sometimes. But I've read elsewhere that they have a much smaller following than people realize.

Oh, also Sea Org. They buy ships, dress up and play navy. But not as a joke, it's in all seriousness a part of their practices. Because Hubbard was in the navy. (Kicked out for being loony, I think it was)

It's also possible 'they' are reading this thread, frikkin weirdos. They've been known to keep track of people who have criticized their group, and in some cases harrass them in old-fashioned ways (IRL). Or plant commenters in the thread.
 
2014-02-21 04:43:03 AM

ransack.: 2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.

No David Miscavige is his wife's missing head


It's been hiding in California for 20 years. Something something child support payments.

/Referencing another thread where the headline had clearly gone through Google translate from its native drunk.
 
2014-02-21 04:51:07 AM

The Numbers: 2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.

Are you sure that's right? I'm thinking subby was actually trying to say:

Scientologist David Miscavige isn't missing wife's head.


As in, he isn't the missing head of his wife, or he is not currently missing her head?

Not missing her head as in, he knows its location, or he doesn't pine for it?
 
2014-02-21 04:54:15 AM

wildcardjack: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

I give you one of their "you must be a pedophile" routine but I don't have it in me. Just check some of the YouTube vids of people trying to ask questions. They're not pleasant once they get entrenched. In a strange bit of projection, they become what they'd call repressive personalities.


i0.wp.com

 
2014-02-21 04:58:02 AM

IlGreven: Cosmic_Music: if only there were some sort of bureau that could federally investigate this

/who ya gonna call

Yes, I'm sure after the IRS was called out for investigating groups whose primary purpose was to avoid paying taxes, they'll try and challenge the tax-exempt status of a religious organization.  I'm sure no one will have a problem with that.


Look man, I voted for Obama twice, but the people behind that IRS scheme looking into the republican PACs or whatever, they admitted that what they did was wrong and unfair. There's nobody at all out there defending that. Those guys are gone now. So whose face are you trying to rub it in?
 
2014-02-21 05:06:12 AM
img.fark.net
 
2014-02-21 05:14:38 AM

Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?


all religion is delusion.
scientology? the creme of the crop
 
2014-02-21 05:16:00 AM

Shadi: [img.fark.net image 669x358]


so only eat meat?

but seriously, WHY hasnt there been a writ of habeas corpus yet? to produce her?
doesnt she have any living biological family??
 
2014-02-21 05:16:29 AM

TheJoe03: Old enough to know better: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.

A religion with aliens would actually make more sense than the Bible. The real problem with Scientology is that it's way too new so it doesn't have the mythical mystique of the ancient religions have. It's the same issue Mormons have and more people think those two religion are cults than the traditional religions.


Yet still, we had one running for president through a major party just a couple years ago.

I make no bones about it, I know that all religions are false, but I especially know that Mormonism and Scientology are false. I'd like to make a distinction here - I do not know if there is some super powerful creator, or if humans are actually living in a complicated computer simulation ala the matrix, or whatever, but I do know that religion is false. Omnipotence is false so long as we have free will. You can't have both at the same time. I don't see why anyone is worthy of being worshiped, even if they created me, and especially if they are not omnipotent and double/triple especially if they are and yet refuse to give me direction on what to do and then expect to punish me if I don't do whatever it is that they want me to do. Talk about a complete asshole.

Anyway, Mormonism and scientology and other modern day cults are demonstratively false. The fact that they not only exist, but seemingly flourish is a damning indictment of human nature. As a species, we are evidently farking terrible at critical thinking. Sure, there may be the random exception to the rule here and there, but it definitely appears that the majority of the human race is content to sit there, be told what to do, what to think about and to soil their pants on demand.

It's farking embarrassing.
 
2014-02-21 05:17:37 AM

TreeHugger: Can we talk about how this guy's wife is possibly being tortured in solitary confinement right now, for all we know? In a compound surrounded by razor wire fences and assumably armed guards? They are so insular and secretive I don't think even the federal gov would try to gain access to see what they're up to.

Also, as mentioned upthread, they don't tell people anything about aliens. Not unless you advance to the highest levels, after years of loyally paying tens of thousands. When newbies walk in they talk self-help about reducing stress, dealing with emotion etc. The gullible are taken in sometimes. But I've read elsewhere that they have a much smaller following than people realize.

Oh, also Sea Org. They buy ships, dress up and play navy. But not as a joke, it's in all seriousness a part of their practices. Because Hubbard was in the navy. (Kicked out for being loony, I think it was)

It's also possible 'they' are reading this thread, frikkin weirdos. They've been known to keep track of people who have criticized their group, and in some cases harrass them in old-fashioned ways (IRL). Or plant commenters in the thread.


well
but it's "freedom" of religion

this is no different than the routine brainwashing of children
INDOCTRINATION is ABUSE !!

/obey the rules, or you will burn in hell for eternity
/baptise your spawn, or they will spent eternity in LIMBO
 
2014-02-21 05:18:20 AM

wildcardjack: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

I give you one of their "you must be a pedophile" routine but I don't have it in me. Just check some of the YouTube vids of people trying to ask questions. They're not pleasant once they get entrenched. In a strange bit of projection, they become what they'd call repressive personalities.



"Politician A stands up on his hind legs in Parliament and brays for a condemnation of Scientology. When we look him over we find crimes -- embezzled funds, moral lapses, a thirst for young boys -- sordid stuff.

"Wife B howls at her husband for attending a Scientology group. We look her up and find she had a baby he didn't know about."

 - L. R. Hubbard
 
2014-02-21 05:19:23 AM

TwistedFark: but I especially know that Mormonism and Scientology are false.


religions

day one: DANGEROUS CULT!
year 100: meh, break away sect
year 500: established religion

it is all about time
 
2014-02-21 05:20:40 AM

Shadi: [img.fark.net image 669x358]


I hope he meant the plant itself because it would be like your junk screaming after castration for the fruit itself to do that.
 
2014-02-21 05:22:48 AM
AverageAmericanGuy:

In the beginning, you're lured in by the very bootstrappy mindset of tackling your own problems and taking control of your life. At this point, there's a lot of support for you from other members, so you begin to develop an attachment to them and grow uncomfortable with outsiders who begin to be seen as people who will weigh you down. My guess is that most people stay at this level for the entirety of their religious life with them.

After a while, you've learned techniques that allow you to control your emotions and this empowers you to act in very aggressive ways without getting caught up in your own sense of humility or empathy. People are there to be used, and you are there to use them. It preys on the tendency of people to go along and get along. The truly sociopathic make it to this level and stay there becoming more sociopathic.

Along the way, you've unwittingly (or wittingly) been divulging your secrets to the church, and any attempt to break away is thwarted by the threat of blackmail or worse.

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.


I spent nearly 20 years as a non-Scientologist (wog) working at a middle-management level in a company run by Scientologists. (Using policies written by Hubbard.) I know more about Scientology than a lot of Scientologists. I've worked with Hubbard's daughter. My sister is in the Sea Org. So I'm pretty familiar with Scientology. And I'd say you just wrote one of the best descriptions of it I've ever seen.

At the initial level, Scientology is simply a clue for people who don't have one. Lots of it is simple common sense, and if you don't have a lot of common sense it seems very revelatory. A lot of rank and file members stay at that level. But as you get more and more training and move through the various levels, you can get more and more sucked in. And as that happens, your personality changes and you begin to feel that only you and your Scientologists friends REALLY have things figured out, and everyone else is to be used as necessary for the betterment of the organization. The brainwashing/hypnosis and psychological techniques, combined with "Hard Sell" sales techniques used by the Registrars, makes it difficult to get out once you get in very deep at all. It's insidious.

Regarding the "it's too strange to be a real religion" argument, it seems to me that volcano people being stuck to a magnetic ribbon in space is no stranger than someone eating a cracker, drinking some wine, and declaring they are eating the flesh and drinking the blood of their savior. They're both wack IMO, but if it makes someone feel better about themselves, then why should I care?
 
2014-02-21 05:32:30 AM

bloobeary: ransack.: It's no more ridiculous than a lot of other religions.

That phrase seems to be dragged out every time someone mentions Scientology. I think it's about time that it was put to rest.

Most religions come from a mixture of folk tales and basic survival rules passed down generation to generation over hundreds of years, and mangled a bit during the journey. They're pretty much what you'd expect any ancient mythology to be after such a long passage of time, warts and all. There is likely to be some nugget of truth at their core, even if the content has been "made better" so many times, that it's about as historically accurate as the tales of Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan and John Henry.

Scientology is bullsh*t through and through. Hubbard created it as a bar bet, wrote it down exactly as it is, and it therefore has no excuse.


Thank you.  The "it's the same as the others" bs is the like minded parroting kind of stuff people should try to avoid doing.  It's the sort of disarming thing anyone uses to get over the first hurdle of ridiculous things you've heard somewhere about them.  I'm sure the Scientologists have some clever jokes at the beginning dealing with the "myths".
 
2014-02-21 05:42:22 AM

ransack.: 2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.

No David Miscavige is his wife's missing head


David Misgivage misses head from his wife? Is this news?
 
2014-02-21 05:42:28 AM

Khazar-Khum: AverageAmericanGuy:

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.

Except that, unlike every other religion, you have to pay through the teeth for the enlightenment. If you go to  a Rabbi and ask him about Judaism, he'll gladly talk to you for free. Same with every priest, pastor, imam, priestess or whatever you want. Many will happily give you information, maybe even a copy of their holy books--which, incidentally, can also be found in any library, or openly for sale. In Scientology, you have to pay for the books, which cannot be found anywhere else and are not sold to outsiders.  If you feel awful and need to talk, Pastor is there for you. In Scientology, you have to pay. And pay, and pay, and pay. It's not at all unusual to hear of people who sank several hundred thousand dollars into it.


My religion history is crap but when the church ran things alongside the aristocracy, didn't they pretty much shake everyone down especially with the whole "buy your relatives out of purgatory" carny act?  Actually in more recent times wasn't that implied that certain donation amounts would free your dead relatives from purgatory?
 
2014-02-21 05:49:41 AM
skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-02-21 05:49:43 AM

Shadi: [img.fark.net image 669x358]


I thought that might be a modern, fake caption, but googling the topic, he really did claim tomatoes screamed. (Though there was a good fake caption about his "auditing" the tomato.) I didn't find any consequences of his theory, like scientologists aren't forbidden from eating tomatoes or anything. One article says he experimented with new varieties of tomatoes and sweet corn, using seeds exposed to radioactivity. While he does claim he developed giant, everbearing mutant plants, it all sounds mundanely plausible compared to more famous claims.
 
2014-02-21 05:49:54 AM

Old enough to know better: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.


Among the people prone to have crippling insecurities, it's the rich, especially the rich and, if not vain, people that require appearances be kept up for their career.

AverageAmericanGuy: and grow uncomfortable with outsiders who begin to be seen as people who will weigh you down.


And that's already a part of celebrity life, photogs and the press, people in general really, already treat them as if they're some other life form.

And of course, for Scientology, this makes them the ripest fruit to try and recruit.  You don't see door to door recruiters for scientology, and certainly not in poor neighborhoods.

They are doing what other religions have not.  They target (the few)people with money and issues, instead of the poor masses.

They're not in it for the "power" like typical religions, or at least, a different kind of power.  Maybe it's just the route that's changed, I mean, if you can convince the best, you don't need them all.

Either way, it's deplorable.
 
2014-02-21 05:56:06 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: rappy mindset of tackling your own problems and taking control of your life. At this point, there's a lot of support for you from other members, so you begin to develop an attachment to them and grow uncomfortable with outsiders who begin to be seen as people who will weigh you down. My guess is that most people stay at this level for the entirety of their religious life with them.

After a while, you've learned techniques that allow you to control your emotions and this empowers you to act in very aggressive ways without getting caught up in your own sense of humility or empathy. People are there to be used, and you are there to use them. It preys on the tendency of people to go along and get along. The truly sociopathic make it to this level and stay there becoming more sociopathic.

Along the way, you've unwittingly (or wittingly) been divulging your secrets to the church, and any attempt to break away is thwarted by the threat of blackmail or worse.

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.


Sounds like becoming a Republican to me.
 
2014-02-21 05:59:03 AM

Khazar-Khum: AverageAmericanGuy:

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.

Except that, unlike every other religion, you have to pay through the teeth for the enlightenment. If you go to  a Rabbi and ask him about Judaism, he'll gladly talk to you for free. Same with every priest, pastor, imam, priestess or whatever you want. Many will happily give you information, maybe even a copy of their holy books--which, incidentally, can also be found in any library, or openly for sale. In Scientology, you have to pay for the books, which cannot be found anywhere else and are not sold to outsiders.  If you feel awful and need to talk, Pastor is there for you. In Scientology, you have to pay. And pay, and pay, and pay. It's not at all unusual to hear of people who sank several hundred thousand dollars into it.


Except for buying indulgences, bible salesmen, tithing, etc.

Now you say, "But that's different because reasons and such!!" and yes, it is different.  In spite of those differences however, the echoes are there and the similarities are undeniable.  Scientology is an insular cult, but history suggests MOST major-player religions started as insular cults.  Hell, the bible is pretty clear that Jesus' followers gave him nearly ALL their property (acts 4).  In one instance a man and his wife were killed by "by god" (so...the cult leadership) for selling some land and keeping some of the money from them(acts 5).

And remember this is the cleaned-up and whitewashed story after shifts in power and money.   Religions that "make it" and stop being tiny cults tend to stop those kinds of behaviors because they don't NEED those behaviors anymore.  More members leads to greater self-policing, greater amounts of money (10% of a million compared to 50% of ten thousand), and a need for doctrinal flexibility.

Scientology is an interesting sociological event.  The problem with studying most religions is that TRUE history of a given faith was burned, purged, and buried deep by later adherents who didn't want some of the more awful truths out and undermining the church.  The story of a cult leader who murdered disobedient followers, fought brutal and bloody battles, or kept a private pleasure den filled with a harem of sexy lovers and wallowed in self-indulgence doesn't sell like the selfless prophet who even treated his worst enemies with kindness and forgiveness.  I mean both Joseph Smith and Mohammed have a story where the children they molested and married were magically extra-mature and "old souls" so it was okay that dirty old freaks were farking kids under the age of 13.

Scientology does this within its domain, it lies and lies and lies about all the nasty little truths of L. Ron Hubbard, the things he did and said, and the things the church has done (operation snow white) and the nature of its enemies (i.e. anyone telling an unwanted truth about their faith is a "suppressive person" or part of the Marcabian death fleet) but unlike the more-established faiths of the world scientology is way further down the scale of successful obfuscations.  If I call Mohammed a child-molester I can get labeled an anti-muslim bigot, if point out when L. Ron Hubbard was psych patient it is just reality.

The sliding scale of truth (when religion is involved) and historical revisionism rampant in any religion has not has the kind of time it had in other major faiths.  More interestingly it may never have as rich an environment.  With more and more media and education in the world is is harder than ever to truly bury the truth.  Sure we have Fox News proving lies are easier than ever to spread, but we also have the entire internet to store and share the truth, where in olden times burning a book could feasibly destroy its knowledge forever.
 
2014-02-21 06:02:49 AM

bloobeary: ransack.: It's no more ridiculous than a lot of other religions.

That phrase seems to be dragged out every time someone mentions Scientology. I think it's about time that it was put to rest.

Most religions come from a mixture of folk tales and basic survival rules passed down generation to generation over hundreds of years, and mangled a bit during the journey. They're pretty much what you'd expect any ancient mythology to be after such a long passage of time, warts and all. There is likely to be some nugget of truth at their core, even if the content has been "made better" so many times, that it's about as historically accurate as the tales of Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan and John Henry.

Scientology is bullsh*t through and through. Hubbard created it as a bar bet, wrote it down exactly as it is, and it therefore has no excuse.



It sounds like your criteria is the number of people providing the source material and how long before modern record-keeping they lived rather than the fact one supposes invisible space ghosts and the other supposes invisible sky wizards.
 
2014-02-21 06:09:03 AM

TiMthisIS: bloobeary: ransack.: It's no more ridiculous than a lot of other religions.

That phrase seems to be dragged out every time someone mentions Scientology. I think it's about time that it was put to rest.

Most religions come from a mixture of folk tales and basic survival rules passed down generation to generation over hundreds of years, and mangled a bit during the journey. They're pretty much what you'd expect any ancient mythology to be after such a long passage of time, warts and all. There is likely to be some nugget of truth at their core, even if the content has been "made better" so many times, that it's about as historically accurate as the tales of Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan and John Henry.

Scientology is bullsh*t through and through. Hubbard created it as a bar bet, wrote it down exactly as it is, and it therefore has no excuse.

Thank you.  The "it's the same as the others" bs is the like minded parroting kind of stuff people should try to avoid doing.  It's the sort of disarming thing anyone uses to get over the first hurdle of ridiculous things you've heard somewhere about them.  I'm sure the Scientologists have some clever jokes at the beginning dealing with the "myths".


Bullsh*t is bullsh*t. And all religion is bullsh*t.

Scientology though.. That's a cult.
 
2014-02-21 06:13:22 AM

Cerebral Ballsy: Bullsh*t is bullsh*t. And all religion is bullsh*t.

Scientology though.. That's a cult.



All religions start as cults so its not especially meaningful to label them as one or the other.
 
2014-02-21 06:21:09 AM
Sounds like someone needs...POWER OF ATTORNEY!

i218.photobucket.com

He'll take the case!
 
2014-02-21 06:24:52 AM

generallyso: It sounds like your criteria is the number of people providing the source material and how long before modern record-keeping they lived rather than the fact one supposes invisible space ghosts and the other supposes invisible sky wizards.


It's more that we know who wrote it, and we know he was nutjob, a poly-drug user (and possibly addict), and a criminal. We can see how (even more obviously than other religions) the priesthood are abusing people (and their wallets), suckering them in, deliberately separating them from their families, using them for forced labour, putting them in prison cells etc etc.

Did other religions do this in the past? Sure. Do we let them pull this shiat now? Hell no.
 
2014-02-21 06:29:47 AM

ransack.: IlGreven: Cosmic_Music: if only there were some sort of bureau that could federally investigate this

/who ya gonna call

Yes, I'm sure after the IRS was called out for investigating groups whose primary purpose was to avoid paying taxes, they'll try and challenge the tax-exempt status of a religious organization.  I'm sure no one will have a problem with that.

Look man, I voted for Obama twice, but the people behind that IRS scheme looking into the republican PACs or whatever, they admitted that what they did was wrong and unfair. There's nobody at all out there defending that. Those guys are gone now. So whose face are you trying to rub it in?


Actually, they did their jobs and despite reports - it wasn't Republicans that were targeted. Both sides were targeted with more scrutiny for Democrats (you should read the Nate Silver piece).
 
2014-02-21 06:32:49 AM
WTF??  This poor woman could be dead for all we know.  Considering how thoroughly he separated her from anyone who cares about her, how would we ever know?  How would anyone ever get probable cause to search this secret compound for her?  These farking sociopathic criminals can seemingly get away with virtually anything by hiding behind their "religion".
 
2014-02-21 06:39:52 AM

Gothnet: Did other religions do this in the past? Sure. Do we let them pull this shiat now? Hell no.


Sure we do, that's how 'faith healer' conmen and churches that shelter pedophiles continue to exist.
 
2014-02-21 06:47:51 AM

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: How is it the organization that broke into IRS offices gets to be tax exempt, again?


Lots and lots of blackmail.
 
2014-02-21 06:57:56 AM
It's really too bad the of all the SF writers in the world that L Ron Hubbard was the one who formed a religion.  Why couldn't it have been Heinlein?

Where Michael Valentine Smith when you need him?
 
2014-02-21 07:04:03 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Khazar-Khum: AverageAmericanGuy:

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.

Except that, unlike every other religion, you have to pay through the teeth for the enlightenment. If you go to  a Rabbi and ask him about Judaism, he'll gladly talk to you for free. Same with every priest, pastor, imam, priestess or whatever you want. Many will happily give you information, maybe even a copy of their holy books--which, incidentally, can also be found in any library, or openly for sale. In Scientology, you have to pay for the books, which cannot be found anywhere else and are not sold to outsiders.  If you feel awful and need to talk, Pastor is there for you. In Scientology, you have to pay. And pay, and pay, and pay. It's not at all unusual to hear of people who sank several hundred thousand dollars into it.

And a professor of English may love to chat with you about Shakespeare on Sunday afternoons at the park, but if you really want to learn at a deep level you're going to have to pay up.

You ever see how much college costs these days?


Then perhaps it would be compared to college than a religion.

Religions don't intentionally withhold information about their beliefs from those seeking it out. This is exactly what Scientology does.

Also, I've never once heard of any other church keeping you under surveillance if you leave.
 
2014-02-21 07:09:22 AM

Egoy3k: It's really too bad the of all the SF writers in the world that L Ron Hubbard was the one who formed a religion.  Why couldn't it have been Heinlein?

Where Michael Valentine Smith when you need him?


Ugh.  I would prefer Troopers, or Mike from the moon, even some of his crazier youth stories.

/disliked Stranger a lot.
//good book, but warped, very warped universe... too much "magic" for science fiction
///of course, that's what it would take for people to get along that well, magic and getting laid all of the time
 
2014-02-21 07:15:56 AM

x23: how short is Miscavige if he is being dwarfed by the 5'7" Tom Cruise? what is he? like 4'11" or something?


I have a theory Scientology is nothing more than the natural result of little man syndrome reaching its extreme
 
2014-02-21 07:26:17 AM

TwistedFark: I make no bones about it, I know that all religions are false, but I especially know that Mormonism and Scientology are false.


Well yeah, but only because they're new enough that we have enough concrete details about their founders to say for sure that they were con artists. Give it a couple of millennia and they'll seem much more respectable.

/and by con artists I mean charlatans.
//and by charlatans I mean swindlers.
///and by swindlers I mean mountebanks.
 
2014-02-21 07:26:30 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-21 07:26:35 AM
You don't have to be mentally unstable to join a cult, but it sure helps.
 
2014-02-21 07:27:32 AM

ransack.: 2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.

No David Miscavige is his wife's missing head


David Miscavige is missing head from his wife.
 
2014-02-21 07:28:54 AM
People are morons. They join stupid delusional religions all the time.

Remember heaven's gate?
 
2014-02-21 07:32:11 AM

jaybeezey: Then perhaps it would be compared to college than a religion.

Religions don't intentionally withhold information about their beliefs from those seeking it out. This is exactly what Scientology does.


That is what puts it firmly in cult territory for me.

AverageAmericanGuy: After a while, you've learned techniques that allow you to control your emotions and this empowers you to act in very aggressive ways without getting caught up in your own sense of humility or empathy


Yeah, don't buy it.
 
2014-02-21 07:32:25 AM

mhd: Gyrfalcon: They're just living, breathing examples for the legalization of unrestricted drone strikes.

Can we make the drones look like B-52s?


They tried, but all the tin roofs rusted.
 
2014-02-21 07:33:38 AM
This is what I think about every time I read about Scientology:

www.useragentman.com
 
2014-02-21 07:41:51 AM

Clint_Torres: People are stupid.


Marcus Aurelius: You don't have to be mentally unstable to join a cult, but it sure helps.


You'd think so, but studies have been done on people who join cults. Generally they're slightly smarter than average and no more prone to mental instability. The unifying factor is that they're approached by the cult when they're vulnerable - maybe they've just moved to a new city and they don't have any friends, maybe they've quit their job to be a housewife and are bored silly as a result, maybe a parent or spouse has just died and they're having trouble dealing with the grief.  Their "mental immune system" is suppressed the same way your actual immune system can be suppressed by stress.
 
2014-02-21 07:47:38 AM

x23: how short is Miscavige if he is being dwarfed by the 5'7" Tom Cruise? what is he? like 4'11" or something?

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x464]


Tom's obviously standing on the box he carries around with him. He even looks taller than Katie.
 
2014-02-21 07:57:36 AM

Egoy3k: It's really too bad the of all the SF writers in the world that L Ron Hubbard was the one who formed a religion.  Why couldn't it have been Heinlein?

Where Michael Valentine Smith when you need him?


So you're interested in  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_All_Worlds ?
 
2014-02-21 08:00:47 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

I think it's pretty easy to explain.

In the beginning, you're lured in by the very bootstrappy mindset of tackling your own problems and taking control of your life. At this point, there's a lot of support for you from other members, so you begin to develop an attachment to them and grow uncomfortable with outsiders who begin to be seen as people who will weigh you down. My guess is that most people stay at this level for the entirety of their religious life with them.

After a while, you've learned techniques that allow you to control your emotions and this empowers you to act in very aggressive ways without getting caught up in your own sense of humility or empathy. People are there to be used, and you are there to use them. It preys on the tendency of people to go along and get along. The truly sociopathic make it to this level and stay there becoming more sociopathic.

Along the way, you've unwittingly (or wittingly) been divulging your secrets to the church, and any attempt to break away is thwarted by the threat of blackmail or worse.

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.


it's basically a scam driven on the placebo effect, everything else is fluff
 
2014-02-21 08:02:41 AM
No, she's dead.
 
2014-02-21 08:12:13 AM

The Lizard People: x23: how short is Miscavige if he is being dwarfed by the 5'7" Tom Cruise? what is he? like 4'11" or something?

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x464]

Is Cruise really 5'7? Does he wear platform heels in all his movies? How does he get to all his movie sets from way out in the Shire?


All of the publicity says 5'7" but having physically walked by him I think that he is a couple of inches shy of that. Granted I didn't have a tape measure at the time.

All that aside, scientologists are nutters.
 
mhd
2014-02-21 08:25:14 AM

omeganuepsilon: //good book, but warped, very warped universe... too much "magic" for science fiction


That's a general problem with Heinlein. Although most of the time it's a different kind of magical thinking.
 
2014-02-21 08:28:59 AM

2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.


Really? The punctuation is bad, but it wasn't that hard to figure out. If my reading comprehension was that poor I surely wouldn't make fun of another's grammar skills.

/don't call me Shirley
 
2014-02-21 08:29:47 AM

Shadi: [img.fark.net image 669x358]


Yet Scientologists can eat tomatoes.

/maybe they can't, I don't really care
 
2014-02-21 08:30:56 AM

Gunther: The unifying factor is that they're approached by the cult when they're vulnerable


Another word for unstable, either mentally, or spiritually, i.e. mentally.
 
2014-02-21 08:31:00 AM

omeganuepsilon: Egoy3k: It's really too bad the of all the SF writers in the world that L Ron Hubbard was the one who formed a religion.  Why couldn't it have been Heinlein?

Where Michael Valentine Smith when you need him?

Ugh.  I would prefer Troopers, or Mike from the moon, even some of his crazier youth stories.

/disliked Stranger a lot.
//good book, but warped, very warped universe... too much "magic" for science fiction
///of course, that's what it would take for people to get along that well, magic and getting laid all of the time


It wasn't may favorite book but I liked the religion, mostly because everyone who followed it became physically attractive, and had lots of sex.

Mike was a great character in a simply wonderful book but he wasn't a religious leader. Of course he probably could have been one had he wanted to or had Manny instructed/asked him to become one.
 
2014-02-21 08:35:36 AM
When can we get Scientology classified as "not a religion" and thereby no longer subject to First Amendment protection?
 
2014-02-21 08:49:05 AM

theropod: When can we get Scientology classified as "not a religion" and thereby no longer subject to First Amendment protection?


Have you forgotten that corporations are people too?
 
2014-02-21 08:50:52 AM

Egoy3k: Of course he probably could have been one had he wanted to or had Manny instructed/asked him to become one.


Do you mean Jubal?  I can't remember a Manny.(and I recently re-read it).

I do recall having thought it was Manny(from Moon/Mistress) years ago(part of what prompted me to re-read it), even made a post on fark about crossing characters between the two books....

(Manny did make it into another story of H's)

I'm half wondering if there aren't other versions of the book, and that was what I read year and years ago.(since you also remember the name)

/or I'm missing something obvious
//having issues with google, have DL's taking up all bandwidth at the moment
 
2014-02-21 08:57:20 AM

omeganuepsilon: Egoy3k: Of course he probably could have been one had he wanted to or had Manny instructed/asked him to become one.

Do you mean Jubal?  I can't remember a Manny.(and I recently re-read it).

I do recall having thought it was Manny(from Moon/Mistress) years ago(part of what prompted me to re-read it), even made a post on fark about crossing characters between the two books....

(Manny did make it into another story of H's)

I'm half wondering if there aren't other versions of the book, and that was what I read year and years ago.(since you also remember the name)

/or I'm missing something obvious
//having issues with google, have DL's taking up all bandwidth at the moment


Sorry I was talking about Mycroft (Mike) and Manuel(Manny) from The moon is a Harsh Mistress in the last line.
 
2014-02-21 08:57:42 AM

TwistedFark: TheJoe03: Old enough to know better: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.

A religion with aliens would actually make more sense than the Bible. The real problem with Scientology is that it's way too new so it doesn't have the mythical mystique of the ancient religions have. It's the same issue Mormons have and more people think those two religion are cults than the traditional religions.

Yet still, we had one running for president through a major party just a couple years ago.

I make no bones about it, I know that all religions are false, but I especially know that Mormonism and Scientology are false. I'd like to make a distinction here - I do not know if there is some super powerful creator, or if humans are actually living in a complicated computer simulation ala the matrix, or whatever, but I do know that religion is false. Omnipotence is false so long as we have free will. You can't have both at the same time. I don't see why anyone is worthy of being worshiped, even if they created me, and especially if they are not omnipotent and double/triple especially if they are and yet refuse to give me direction on what to do and then expect to punish me if I don't do whatever it is that they want me to do. Talk about a complete asshole.

Anyway, Mormonism and scientology and other modern day cults are demonstratively false. The fact that they not only exist, but seemingly flourish is a damning indictment of human nature. As a species, we are evidently farking terrible at critical thinking. Sure, there may be the random exception to the rule here and there, but it definitely appears that the majority of the human race is content to sit there, be told what to do, what to think about and to soil their pants on demand.

It's farking embarrassing.


Is the assumption here that you have free will?
 
2014-02-21 08:59:07 AM
I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

I think it's pretty easy to explain.

In the beginning, you're lured in by the very bootstrappy mindset of tackling your own problems and taking control of your life. At this point, there's a lot of support for you from other members, so you begin to develop an attachment to them and grow uncomfortable with outsiders who begin to be seen as people who blah blah...


Anyone who uses this word in this manner is automatically an imbecile.
 
2014-02-21 09:00:38 AM
Every time I see this guy:

i1168.photobucket.com

I can't help but think of this:

i1168.photobucket.com

Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! Look around you.
There, on the rocks; a beautiful girl. Come to me, my child...come to me...
That is strength, boy! That is power!
 
2014-02-21 09:04:51 AM

mhd: omeganuepsilon: //good book, but warped, very warped universe... too much "magic" for science fiction

That's a general problem with Heinlein. Although most of the time it's a different kind of magical thinking.


Meh.  I can understand aliens being able to teleport as unexplained science.

The morphing of regular humans(ie practically modern) into creatures able to control things(age, telepathy, etc) will willpower alone was a bit too much.

All fine and well for Middle Earth, but not so much for "realistic" earth.  Even ok for alternate earths or far future earth(IE Shadowrun)

For Stranger, it was patterned too much as "real" earth visited by aliens, even mentions gods and angels.  Not much of a science fiction book at all.

Unless by "magical thinking" you mean earth couldn't ever take the route of Troopers / Mistress(ie the social movements, even those in Stranger minus the actual magic).  Then nevermind, you're not worth it.  They're meant to be abstracts, "what if's", not general prophecies or predictions, but explorations.
 
2014-02-21 09:11:04 AM
www.xenutv.com
Miscagige's niece finally got around to writing her book.  It should be required reading for scientology threads, and her site http://exscientologykids.com/  makes for good reading on the subject as well.

Those guys are running a private prison and they need to be forced to stop it.
 
2014-02-21 09:11:09 AM

Old enough to know better: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.


Objectively, the stories in Scientology aren't any more ridiculous than those told in mainstream religions, its just that Scientology is much younger.  Anyone with a scientific background can see the scam behind pretending an ohm-meter gives insight into a person's emotional state; that's easy.  The basic premises behind Christianity and Islam are just as dodgy, though, just covered with the respectability of thousands of years.
 
2014-02-21 09:16:04 AM

Gunther: Clint_Torres: People are stupid.

Marcus Aurelius: You don't have to be mentally unstable to join a cult, but it sure helps.

You'd think so, but studies have been done on people who join cults. Generally they're slightly smarter than average and no more prone to mental instability. The unifying factor is that they're approached by the cult when they're vulnerable - maybe they've just moved to a new city and they don't have any friends, maybe they've quit their job to be a housewife and are bored silly as a result, maybe a parent or spouse has just died and they're having trouble dealing with the grief.  Their "mental immune system" is suppressed the same way your actual immune system can be suppressed by stress.


YEah, that's actually the really goddamn scary thing about brainwashing: There's a lot of evidence that suggests that *intelligence is not a defense against brainwashing*.
 
2014-02-21 09:21:17 AM

Shadi: [img.fark.net image 669x358]


So that's why I enjoy their tender flesh so much.
 
2014-02-21 09:22:00 AM

Shadi: [img.fark.net image 669x358]


Well, yeah tomatoes scream... in pleasure.

"Cut me, you big strong human! You plucked me from the branch, what are you going to do with me now?  Oohh, tell me!  Slice me and lay me out on some lettuce!  Dice me and serve me in your pasta! Yeah, you  own me don't you?  Make it hurt! Stab with with your steel prongs.... EAT ME!"

They're really some twisted little farks in the end.
 
2014-02-21 09:23:25 AM

Egoy3k: Sorry I was talking about Mycroft (Mike) and Manuel(Manny) from The moon is a Harsh Mistress in the last line.


How would Mycroft be a religious leader?

Anyways, I realize my mistake now, I confused the two Mikes' mentors. You switched so seamlessly from the discussion of Stranger to Mistress, did you do it too?
 
2014-02-21 09:23:31 AM

Seraphym: Shadi: [img.fark.net image 669x358]

Well, yeah tomatoes scream... in pleasure.

"Cut me, you big strong human! You plucked me from the branch, what are you going to do with me now?  Oohh, tell me!  Slice me and lay me out on some lettuce!  Dice me and serve me in your pasta! Yeah, you  own me don't you?  Make it hurt! Stab with with your steel prongs.... EAT ME!"

They're really some twisted little farks in the end.


Fap.
 
2014-02-21 09:30:23 AM

omeganuepsilon: Egoy3k: Sorry I was talking about Mycroft (Mike) and Manuel(Manny) from The moon is a Harsh Mistress in the last line.

How would Mycroft be a religious leader?

Anyways, I realize my mistake now, I confused the two Mikes' mentors. You switched so seamlessly from the discussion of Stranger to Mistress, did you do it too?


I assumed that when you said you would prefer Mike from the moon you meant Mycroft.
 
2014-02-21 09:33:08 AM

Felgraf: YEah, that's actually the really goddamn scary thing about brainwashing: There's a lot of evidence that suggests that *intelligence is not a defense against brainwashing*.


Depends on what you deem intelligence to be.

More pointedly:
A lot of "smart" people can fall into believing anything, because they desire for it to be true, the subconscious makes it happen.  Rational intelligence is irrelevant.  The apt involved trait would be self awareness, or rather the part of it that deals with the capacity for introspection.

You may have to be smart to be self aware in that regard, but being smart does not necessarily include self awareness.
 
2014-02-21 09:36:47 AM

Egoy3k: omeganuepsilon: Egoy3k: Sorry I was talking about Mycroft (Mike) and Manuel(Manny) from The moon is a Harsh Mistress in the last line.

How would Mycroft be a religious leader?

Anyways, I realize my mistake now, I confused the two Mikes' mentors. You switched so seamlessly from the discussion of Stranger to Mistress, did you do it too?

I assumed that when you said you would prefer Mike from the moon you meant Mycroft.


Ah.  What I intended is I'd rather those books be reality, not religious leaders per se, in that they give hope to mankind without having a religious aspect.
 
2014-02-21 09:43:34 AM

ransack.: 2chris2: David Miscavich, the head of scientology's wife isn't missing

I had to read that about 10 times before I finally figured out what subby was trying to say.

Scientology head David Miscavige's wife isn't missing.

No David Miscavige is his wife's missing head


That made me LOL. Thank you.
 
2014-02-21 09:48:18 AM

Cosmic_Music: /who ya gonna call


I know who I better call...
cdn.thewire.com
 
2014-02-21 10:05:40 AM
On the one hand, I wouldn't put anything past the "Church" of $cientology.

On the other hand, it's the Daily Fail.
 
2014-02-21 10:12:39 AM
i.dailymail.co.uk

I wonder if she is here...

/Scientology compound near me
//Supposed to be some sort of data archive bunker complete with tacky McMansion
 
2014-02-21 10:36:05 AM
www.cs.cmu.edu

Turns out the mysterious E-Meter is a plain old galvanometer, which measures electric current. It's a toy or lab equipment for science students, but it's powerful mumbo-jumbo for impressing uneducated, gullible marks.

Coincidentally I am reading Inside Scientology, released 2011, which is a detailed history of LRH, the thing he made up, and Miscavige & Friends. Recommended.

drxym: Think of it like an extremely bad, extremely expensive MMO.


That's about right, in one sentence.  Or MLM.
 
Ant
2014-02-21 10:43:56 AM

Old enough to know better: This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?


You're introduced to the really whacky stuff very slowly. After you've invested a lot of time and energy (and money) into something, human nature will try to stop you from abandoning what you have invested in, even if it's complete bullshiat.

I mean, there must've been something to it, otherwise you wouldn't have devoted your life to it, right?
 
Ant
2014-02-21 10:48:24 AM

Mad_Radhu: but we KNOW that L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith were both con men who we shouldn't trust further than we can throw them.


I'm gonna bet that Joseph Smith is probably pretty light now. You could probably throw him pretty far.
 
2014-02-21 10:57:06 AM

Ant: Old enough to know better: This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

You're introduced to the really whacky stuff very slowly. After you've invested a lot of time and energy (and money) into something, human nature will try to stop you from abandoning what you have invested in, even if it's complete bullshiat.

I mean, there must've been something to it, otherwise you wouldn't have devoted your life to it, right?


Tom Cruise famously went all WTF-dude when he reached OT-III and got told the Xenu story.  Supposedly he almost quit Scientology.
 
2014-02-21 10:57:13 AM

bloobeary: ransack.: It's no more ridiculous than a lot of other religions.

That phrase seems to be dragged out every time someone mentions Scientology. I think it's about time that it was put to rest.

Most religions come from a mixture of folk tales and basic survival rules passed down generation to generation over hundreds of years, and mangled a bit during the journey. They're pretty much what you'd expect any ancient mythology to be after such a long passage of time, warts and all. There is likely to be some nugget of truth at their core, even if the content has been "made better" so many times, that it's about as historically accurate as the tales of Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan and John Henry.

Scientology is bullsh*t through and through. Hubbard created it as a bar bet, wrote it down exactly as it is, and it therefore has no excuse.


Moreover, Dianetics was first advertised as a self-help and psychology book, but when the NJ Board of Psychiatrists wanted to shut his little practice down, he turned it into a religion so they couldn't touch him.

/Source: Playboy's Interview with his son, L. Ron Jr
//It's a must read, L.Ron was nuts
 
2014-02-21 10:59:26 AM

El Pachuco: Coincidentally I am reading Inside Scientology, released 2011, which is a detailed history of LRH, the thing he made up, and Miscavige & Friends. Recommended.


Going Clear is also really good. I found the Hubbard connection with Jack Parsons and the Babalon Working pretty interesting.
 
2014-02-21 11:03:05 AM

Grammatik Polizei: [i.dailymail.co.uk image 850x535]

I wonder if she is here...

/Scientology compound near me
//Supposed to be some sort of data archive bunker complete with tacky McMansion


Exeter will destroy your Interoctior for this!
 
2014-02-21 11:07:55 AM
IlGreven:
The only difference between a cult and a religion is time and money.

AND how easy it is for you to leave without being either killed in the attempt or hassled and stalked for the rest of your life if you manage to escape.

Scientology is notorious for harassing "defectors."

IMO, every single person who gets roped into this cult needs to be kidnapped and taken someplace to be deprogrammed before they get hurt...
 
2014-02-21 11:09:53 AM

fireclown: Those guys are running a private prison and they need to be forced to stop it.


As long as they call themselves a religion, they're apparently free to do anything they want.
 
2014-02-21 11:22:34 AM

lilbjorn: fireclown: Those guys are running a private prison and they need to be forced to stop it.

As long as they call themselves a religion, they're apparently free to do anything they want.


Yeah, and they've won a few lawsuits to that effect.  The principle seems to be that religions are allowed to enforce discipline among their flock. I think the law is in error in this matter, and hope that it is eventually overturned.

You just don't see Methodists holding people against their will, apart from seemingly interminable weekend retreats.

 
2014-02-21 11:28:45 AM

fyrewede: IlGreven:
The only difference between a cult and a religion is time and money.

AND how easy it is for you to leave without being either killed in the attempt or hassled and stalked for the rest of your life if you manage to escape.

Scientology is notorious for harassing "defectors."

IMO, every single person who gets roped into this cult needs to be kidnapped and taken someplace to be deprogrammed before they get hurt...


Chicken or egg.  More members = more converts/born-ins = less need to police the ones that get away.  The larger and more established a religion gets the less it has to concern itself with doing all those "cult" things.

Right now Xenu and the Volcanoes is seen widely as crazy-pants crazicality but a Zombie Jew and an invisible sky monster are totally reasonable and rational, if that were flipped it would be the Catholic Church that was telling people "you can't read the bible until you learn an obscure version of Latin and if you try to learn all the secrets of our church before you are ready you'll get Pneumonia and die."

Now you're probably asking, "SO WHAT?!?  They're evil!" and well, you're probably right.  So are the Catholics who promote the spread of AIDS in Africa (indirectly) and the Mormons trying to get gay people killed.  The cult that murders one person in cold blood and the billion-strong religion that indirectly contributes to a million-and-counting ethnic cleansing operation are hard to compare.

Likewise, suppressing ONE bad religion because it is a minority while letting another one run rampant because it's really big chafes against the idea of justice or the ever-popular "rooting for the underdog" meme.
 
2014-02-21 11:33:34 AM

The Lizard People: x23: how short is Miscavige if he is being dwarfed by the 5'7" Tom Cruise? what is he? like 4'11" or something?

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x464]

Is Cruise really 5'7? Does he wear platform heels in all his movies? How does he get to all his movie sets from way out in the Shire?


There's nothing wrong with being 5'7 :'(
 
2014-02-21 11:33:35 AM

TheBigJerk: Now you're probably asking, "SO WHAT?!?  They're evil!" and well, you're probably right.  So are the Catholics who promote the spread of AIDS in Africa (indirectly) and the Mormons trying to get gay people killed.


Oh fark off with that false-equivalency bullshiat. Go hang out in Politics threads and tell people BSABSVR if you need your fix.
 
2014-02-21 11:47:01 AM
 
2014-02-21 11:49:44 AM

fireclown: lilbjorn: fireclown: Those guys are running a private prison and they need to be forced to stop it.

As long as they call themselves a religion, they're apparently free to do anything they want.

Yeah, and they've won a few lawsuits to that effect.  The principle seems to be that religions are allowed to enforce discipline among their flock. I think the law is in error in this matter, and hope that it is eventually overturned.

You just don't see Methodists holding people against their will, apart from seemingly interminable weekend retreats.


"Against their will" is dicey when cults and brainwashing comes into play.  Quite a lot of the folk who are imprisoned are their (legally speaking) of their own free will.  If you are familiar with the Milgram Experiment you know they were forced to sign the documents and make the agreements that have them locked away, but ignoring or excusing that kind of psychological manipulation is a key part of religious freedom.

Scientology lawyers know it, and take advantage of it.

'Nother fun fact: scientology lost its tax-exemption for a couple of decades.  They got it back after changing how they operated and paying a pittance percentage of what they owed the IRS.  Taking it away again seems like the best means of hurting them again with the added bonus of forcing other tax-exempt religions to stand with them (and their craziness) or step back their own illegal activities (Pulpit freedom sunday and similar activities).
 
2014-02-21 11:55:58 AM

Man On Pink Corner: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

Same reason anyone joins any other religion.  They're either indoctrinated in early childhood into whatever the local religion happens to be, or they're "converted" by people who pretend to be their friends -- and sometimes actually are their friends -- in a time of personal weakness or upheaval.


Then there's this:  A lot of Scientologists get off on the hypnotic feeling they get from their early auditing  sessions.  So while they're chasing that dragon, the cult has time to get them invested financially and build up the previously mentioned blackmail material.  Even people who have left Scientology still often talk wistfully of the heady days of "going exterior."  Oh, and that bullshiat phrase reminds me:  there's also a real power in people having a common made-up language to make them feel that they're part of something special and exclusive.
 
2014-02-21 12:00:53 PM
I used to work in downtown Clearwater and spent a lot of time around Scientologists. They are weirder than you think, and people think they are weird.
 
2014-02-21 12:04:25 PM
I do understand why Scientologists are a bit defensive though, even though they are whackadoodle nutjobs. I went to the first Anonymous protest in Clearwater but I didn't join the protest; I just wanted to watch. So members of Anonymous noticed me watching and immediately decided I was a Scientologist and started hurling insults at me, much to my amusement. Later I joined up with them and no one would talk to me, even though I swore I wasn't a Scientology spy. It was sort of a weird experience.
 
2014-02-21 12:18:41 PM

TheBigJerk: Right now Xenu and the Volcanoes is seen widely as crazy-pants crazicality but a Zombie Jew and an invisible sky monster are totally reasonable and rational, if that were flipped it would be the Catholic Church that was telling people "you can't read the bible until you learn an obscure version of Latin and if you try to learn all the secrets of our church before you are ready you'll get Pneumonia and die."


The problem is that at the tiem of its "fouding" the Zenu story is bonkers.

At the time of christianity's founding a Lich (zombies just eat brains) son fo god was pausible.
 
2014-02-21 12:26:56 PM
Before I knew what scientology was, I was looking for a job in Austin, TX, and came across a scientology center that was "hiring".
I went in, watched their creepy video, took all their tests and scored very highly, so they wanted me.
I stood firm in my stance that if they could pay me $11/hr. I would work for them.
Well, they areen't the paying type, more the 'extort as much money from you as possible' type, so they wouldn't agree to "hire" me.
They wanted me to be an auditor.  (and a walking wallet)
So after refusing to "work" for them for nothing, the first guy sent me up to the next guy to try to break me down.
He couldn't crack me either, so I kept getting passed up the line.  Apparently they wanted me pretty bad, I must've scored very highly.
At this point, I was not interested in what they were selling, but I was interested in how they kept trying to break me down, and I wanted to see how far they'd go.
Finally, they took me the the head poobah creep guy in this lavish office with beautiful wood and leather furniture who was explaining to me how cool it would be for me to train my mind to learn how people think, how to see people as predictable and guideable (gullible) and the last thing he said to me was "you can get so powerful you can fark with people!!"
At that point, I stood up, told him he was totally farked up in the head and walked out the building.
I felt violated, and dirty, and sick to my stomach.
scientology is one of the creepiest  zombie-makingcults I've ever seen.
The people are frighteningly fake, and empty, and transparent.
They think they are accessing some sort of higher knowledge and power, while it is they who are being played for
idiots and simply drained of their money and souls.
I feel sorry for the fools who enlist.

/csb
 
2014-02-21 12:27:25 PM

gunrunner: https://www.google.com/maps/search/clearwater+florida+scientology+hea d quarters/[[nospam-﹫-backwards] image 7x13]72[* image 7x13]961969,-82.799465,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m5!1e2!3m3!1s7376903! 2e1!3e10

the wierdest building I have ever been in...tell me this thing doesnt look like a fort!


Actually, having lived in the Tampa/St. Pete/Clearwater area for over 2 years, it looks to me like just about every other above-average hotel near the beach.  Kinda typical of the Spanish Colonial style of architecture that is common throughout coastal Florida -- stucco exterior, terracotta roof tiles, etc.

See the Don Cesar Hotel in St. Pete for another example (in pink instead of beige).
 
2014-02-21 12:31:44 PM

T Baggins: Shadi: [img.fark.net image 669x358]

I thought that might be a modern, fake caption, but googling the topic, he really did claim tomatoes screamed. (Though there was a good fake caption about his "auditing" the tomato.) I didn't find any consequences of his theory, like scientologists aren't forbidden from eating tomatoes or anything. One article says he experimented with new varieties of tomatoes and sweet corn, using seeds exposed to radioactivity. While he does claim he developed giant, everbearing mutant plants, it all sounds mundanely plausible compared to more famous claims.


As another poster mentioned, the "E-Meter" (the device hooked up to the tomato in that photo) that Scientologists use to detect "emotional charge" is nothing more than an adjustable-sensitivity galvanometer, the same type of instrument that's the basis of EKG machines, lie-detectors, etc; it's essentially just a very sensitive ammeter.  I find it amusing that Hubbard, the self-proclaimed SMARTEST SCIENTIST EVAR!!1!, would fail to realize what was happening when he sliced into an acidic fruit (that has copper electrodes stuck in it) with a dissimilar-metal knife...kids make batteries out of potatoes the same way in 3rd-grade science classes.
 
2014-02-21 12:33:39 PM

Confabulat: I do understand why Scientologists are a bit defensive though, even though they are whackadoodle nutjobs. I went to the first Anonymous protest in Clearwater but I didn't join the protest; I just wanted to watch. So members of Anonymous noticed me watching and immediately decided I was a Scientologist and started hurling insults at me, much to my amusement. Later I joined up with them and no one would talk to me, even though I swore I wasn't a Scientology spy. It was sort of a weird experience.


Just imagine the trouble you could be in, if both Scientology and 4chan decided they really didn't like you.  At the same time.


farm4.staticflickr.com
 
2014-02-21 12:37:38 PM

Gunther: TheBigJerk: Now you're probably asking, "SO WHAT?!?  They're evil!" and well, you're probably right.  So are the Catholics who promote the spread of AIDS in Africa (indirectly) and the Mormons trying to get gay people killed.

Oh fark off with that false-equivalency bullshiat. Go hang out in Politics threads and tell people BSABSVR if you need your fix.


Good job not reading further there son.  Glad you can't have more complicated thoughts regarding reprehensible behavior or the nature of casual destruction.

liam76: TheBigJerk: Right now Xenu and the Volcanoes is seen widely as crazy-pants crazicality but a Zombie Jew and an invisible sky monster are totally reasonable and rational, if that were flipped it would be the Catholic Church that was telling people "you can't read the bible until you learn an obscure version of Latin and if you try to learn all the secrets of our church before you are ready you'll get Pneumonia and die."

The problem is that at the tiem of its "fouding" the Zenu story is bonkers.

At the time of christianity's founding a Lich (zombies just eat brains) son fo god was pausible.


So are psychic aliens, or at least until the last decade or so.  Isaac Asimov was considered a writer of "hard" scifi and his speculative fiction was quite open to the idea of ESP.  He was a contemporary of Hubbard and provides a pretty good context to what was "believable" to folks during the creation of Dianetics.

And like it or not, a majority of Americans *still* believe in magic, it just varies as to what KIND of magic.

BUT!  Unlike Judaism scientology is trying to claw its way up from nothing in an era of unprecedented data.  Gods have always existed in the gaps of knowledge, stuffed into holes where "?" has not been solved by "!".  Everything from why the sun goes down to why the tides go in and out were once hiding holes for gods, now filled with scientific facts and more than ever these facts are easily referenced.  Xenu is trying to grow like mold in an ever-shrinking patch of shadow while all the other, more-established faiths keep trying to hedge him out.

I find it quite amusing to watch.
 
2014-02-21 12:52:11 PM

ransack.: No David Miscavige is his wife's missing head


No, like a lot of marriages, the Miscaviges' love life has lost a bit of the old spark.

David Miscavige is missing his wife's head.
 
2014-02-21 12:55:41 PM

TwistedFark: TheJoe03: Old enough to know better: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.

A religion with aliens would actually make more sense than the Bible. The real problem with Scientology is that it's way too new so it doesn't have the mythical mystique of the ancient religions have. It's the same issue Mormons have and more people think those two religion are cults than the traditional religions.

Yet still, we had one running for president through a major party just a couple years ago.

I make no bones about it, I know that all religions are false, but I especially know that Mormonism and Scientology are false. I'd like to make a distinction here - I do not know if there is some super powerful creator, or if humans are actually living in a complicated computer simulation ala the matrix, or whatever, but I do know that religion is false. Omnipotence is false so long as we have free will. You can't have both at the same time. I don't see why anyone is worthy of being worshiped, even if they created me, and especially if they are not omnipotent and double/triple especially if they are and yet refuse to give me direction on what to do and then expect to punish me if I don't do whatever it is that they want me to do. Talk about a complete asshole.

Anyway, Mormonism and scientology and other modern day cults are demonstratively false. The fact that they not only exist, but seemingly flourish is a damning indictment of human nature. As a species, we are evidently farking terrible at critical thinking. Sure, there may be the random exception to the rule here and there, but it definitely appears that the majority of the human race is content to sit there, be told what to do, what to think about and to soil their pants on demand.

It's farking embarrassing.


Omnipotence and free will can coexist.  You are simply thinking about time as a linear function.  What if all time exists at exactly the same time and place in a way that our minds cannot process?

Or alternatively, in the multidimensional string universes, we have free choice, but there is one per-determined outcome that we must make - that action is the branch into another multiverse.
 
2014-02-21 01:00:56 PM
http://www.xenu.net/ - all I needed to peruse a few years back to figure out my Scientologist friend was on the one way slide to being brainwashed.

/he's still in the cult
//hates me for asking him about xenu.net
 
2014-02-21 01:12:29 PM

TheBigJerk: So are psychic aliens, or at least until the last decade or so. Isaac Asimov was considered a writer of "hard" scifi and his speculative fiction was quite open to the idea of ESP. He was a contemporary of Hubbard and provides a pretty good context to what was "believable" to folks during the creation of Dianetics


I am going to have to disagree with you here.

You called it out with "speculative" fiction. Very few people, especially "experts" thought it was possible.

Wheras everybody bought into gods back in the day.


TheBigJerk: And like it or not, a majority of Americans *still* believe in magic, it just varies as to what KIND of magic


Yep, but it is less than thousands of years ago (I hope...).


TheBigJerk: Xenu is trying to grow like mold in an ever-shrinking patch of shadow while all the other, more-established faiths keep trying to hedge him out


I am hoping atheism keep shining light on it...
 
2014-02-21 01:20:07 PM
Is it just me, or....

i.dailymail.co.uk

.....  is this guy the next Bond Villain?
 
2014-02-21 01:30:06 PM

TwistedFark: TheJoe03: Old enough to know better: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.

A religion with aliens would actually make more sense than the Bible. The real problem with Scientology is that it's way too new so it doesn't have the mythical mystique of the ancient religions have. It's the same issue Mormons have and more people think those two religion are cults than the traditional religions.

Yet still, we had one running for president through a major party just a couple years ago.

I make no bones about it, I know that all religions are false, but I especially know that Mormonism and Scientology are false. I'd like to make a distinction here - I do not know if there is some super powerful creator, or if humans are actually living in a complicated computer simulation ala the matrix, or whatever, but I do know that religion is false. Omnipotence is false so long as we have free will. You can't have both at the same time. I don't see why anyone is worthy of being worshiped, even if they created me, and especially if they are not omnipotent and double/triple especially if they are and yet refuse to give me direction on what to do and then expect to punish me if I don't do whatever it is that they want me to do. Talk about a complete asshole.

Anyway, Mormonism and scientology and other modern day cults are demonstratively false. The fact that they not only exist, but seemingly flourish is a damning indictment of human nature. As a species, we are evidently farking terrible at critical thinking. Sure, there may be the random exception to the rule here and there, but it definitely appears that the majority of the human race is content to sit there, be told what to do, what to think about and to soil their pants on demand.

It's farking embarrassing.


You can't "know" they are false. You have a belief. A faith one might say.
 
2014-02-21 01:33:31 PM

TheBigJerk: Hell, the bible is pretty clear that Jesus' followers gave him nearly ALL their property


Um, point of order: Jesus had already been crucified, resurrected and ascended before the goings-on recorded in Acts.  So, converts didn't give it to Him, they gave it to Peter and the Apostles.
 
2014-02-21 01:34:28 PM

daemoncan: Is it just me, or....

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 306x525]

.....  is this guy the next Bond Villain?


He's a current Bond villain.
 
2014-02-21 01:38:28 PM

Old enough to know better: Frederick: I've always wanted to ask a scientologist, why -why did you decide to be a scientologist?

This. Especially Hollywood actors. I mean really, Aliens? Is your skepticism threshold really that low?

I have a hard enough time buying the stuff in the Bible.


There was an acting coach with a very successful acting course who became an early Scientologist.  He introduced it to several actors who went on to be successful.  Then, it became a thing you did simply because the core group around this coach did it, and obviously it had helped those other dudes.  So it snowballed.

As to why become a Scientologist - nowadays anyone who can google can find out their whole crazy belief system in no time, but it used to be a closely guarded secret.  They sued the shiat out of the first people who publicized it.

Rather than presenting everything all at once, which any sane person would reject, they'd get you to pay to audit until you reached the next level, you'd be fed another little dribble of the theology behind it all.  By the time you had the whole picture, you were already heavily invested in it, both spiritually and financially.  It's very hard for someone to admit that they've paid tens or hundreds  of thousands of dollars over decades to hear a bunch of bullshiat - much easier to pretend it isn't bullshiat, especially when every step of the way you only have to accept a tiny amount more bullshiat.  Combine that with all the collected blackmail material (it's like if the Catholic Church made you write out your confessions, filed them away and later said they'd have to tell everyone that horrible secret you've kept all these years if you ever left) and you have a pretty good recipe for once you're sucked in, you're all in, crazy shiat be damned.
 
2014-02-21 01:40:26 PM

daemoncan: Is it just me, or....

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 306x525]

.....  is this guy the next Bond Villain?


f.edgesuite.net

A teeny-tiny Bond villain.

Goldpinky?
 
2014-02-21 01:42:21 PM

Deucednuisance: TheBigJerk: Hell, the bible is pretty clear that Jesus' followers gave him nearly ALL their property

Um, point of order: Jesus had already been crucified, resurrected and ascended before the goings-on recorded in Acts.  So, converts didn't give it to Him, they gave it to Peter and the Apostles.


Huh, learn something new every day.

Hrm...that means doctrinally it was Jesus who did the killing on account of him being god.  Or something like that.  Though I suppose that never really changed.
 
2014-02-21 01:56:02 PM

El Pachuco: daemoncan: Is it just me, or....

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 306x525]

.....  is this guy the next Bond Villain?

[f.edgesuite.net image 425x340]

A teeny-tiny Bond villain.

Goldpinky?


wow.  He might really BE shorter than Tom Cruise.
 
2014-02-21 01:59:47 PM
liam76: TheBigJerk: So are psychic aliens, or at least until the last decade or so. Isaac Asimov was considered a writer of "hard" scifi and his speculative fiction was quite open to the idea of ESP. He was a contemporary of Hubbard and provides a pretty good context to what was "believable" to folks during the creation of Dianetics

I am going to have to disagree with you here.

You called it out with "speculative" fiction. Very few people, especially "experts" thought it was possible.

Wheras everybody bought into gods back in the day.

I've gotten the impression even "experts" thought psychics were possible as little as 60 years ago.  I mean I wasn't there taking a survey but...

And the same "everybody" that bought into gods in 0 CE are the same "everybody" willing to believe in ghosts, spirits, or psychics (dianetics is kind of a mish-mash) in 1952.

I wish I could find it, but there was a survey in the last 15 years that showed a large majority of Americans still believe in some brand of magic, (even when you exclude Jesus and the Abrahamics) which I actually one of the problems I've always had with White Wolf games, Dresden Files, Harry Potter, and any other fantasy setting that uses The Masquerade.

Actually that reminds me of (completely tangential) The Song of Fire and Ice series.  In Essos you have all these magical motherfarkers with powers out the ass and for the most part everyone just ignores or makes fun of them.  This is farking ridiculous to me because here in Realityville Realworld a farking salt stain will cause worship and religious fervor.  Someone who could actually show up and make fire from his hands or do that Jamie Madrox Multiple Man thing would be a farking GOD.

Still, Dragon-tits is the biggest Mary-Sue since Mary-Sue and is probably the most important character still alive in that series so whatever.
 
2014-02-21 02:13:19 PM

TheBigJerk: Good job not reading further there son.  Glad you can't have more complicated thoughts regarding reprehensible behavior or the nature of casual destruction.


Yes; clearly my issue with your post was clearly that I'm too mentally limited to think about people doing bad stuff. You really nailed me there.

It's farking ridiculous of you to compare Scientology (adherents in the low five figures) with Catholicism (a billion adherents) and contrast levels of harm you think they cause.  Obviously Catholicism is going to be responsible for more suffering: there's fifty thousand Catholics for every Scientologist.
 
2014-02-21 02:37:12 PM

machodonkeywrestler: You can't "know" they are false. You have a belief. A faith one might say.


Any theory must have a set of criteria that both prove it true (an ability to predict) as well as false ( negation of said theory). Science makes the tremendous leap of assuming that all observable behavior is ultimately based out of effects that can be observed.

Thus, Science deals with and only with knowledge that is knowable. Theories must be falsifiable as well as provable and this must be done within the limits of what is observable. As a theory pretty much all religions fail. Most aren't falsifiable; and none are provable via observation. IE, we can't see God(s) hand directly. Worse, we can't even see a consistent action by any deity in the observable world. IE, no God defends their temple from defilement.

As a scientific theory the existence of deities is by virtue of its inability to be falsified, false. Thus I and many others can indeed know without resorting to faith that as far as we understand the observable reality around us there are no Gods. The theory can't stand on its own merits due to being malformed and that is simply that.

Can that reality be false? Sure. Science actually highlights that in many areas. Theories regarding reality do in fact change, as well as what is 'known' because of them. We used to believe in ether binding everything to a single time-frame. Now we don't. And its verifiable via observation. Theories come and go. But I believe in them, have faith in them no more than I do in a spork. Once it fails me I find a better one and move on. Tools and math don't require nor demand this belief/faith/devotion that you are attempting to attribute.
 
2014-02-21 02:53:06 PM

Gunther: TheBigJerk: Good job not reading further there son.  Glad you can't have more complicated thoughts regarding reprehensible behavior or the nature of casual destruction.

Yes; clearly my issue with your post was clearly that I'm too mentally limited to think about people doing bad stuff. You really nailed me there.

It's farking ridiculous of you to compare Scientology (adherents in the low five figures) with Catholicism (a billion adherents) and contrast levels of harm you think they cause.  Obviously Catholicism is going to be responsible for more suffering: there's fifty thousand Catholics for every Scientologist.


aaaaand?

Like i said, that makes them really hard to compare.  It's like comparing a Lamborghini and a Humvee, any one scale you put them on weighs more heavily in favor of one or the other because they are very different vehicles with very different purposes.

AND, the reason Catholics don't commit such acts on an individual level is partly  because they are so big.  No religion commits evil because god or the devil made 'em do it, every questionable or monstrous act served some kind of logical purpose for the leadership.  Scilons hunt down every apostate because losing or gaining 5 members is a big deal while Catholics are a lot more laid-back because losing or gaining 5 members is a rounding error.  Scientologists don't have to worry about big pictures as much as Catholics, and Catholics don't have to worry about one apostate wandering away as much.

But, what is interesting and what history seems to bear out is that when a religion starts, it is like Scientology and when a religion gets big, it is like Catholicism, completely separate from the particulars of their dogma or their makeup.  Which brings up around the the original point, someone said, "The only difference between a cult and a religion is time and money."  Those are the two motive differences, but the results are quite different indeed.

On a more specific note; kidnapping and brainwashing THAT cult's members as opposed to any OTHER cult's members is dicey because if you work the law wrong you end up explicitly supporting a few big churches as they stomp the fark out any small church.  Christian scientists are mostly harmless, but they believe prayer heals all and all medicine is forbidden.  You gonna kidnap their kids for ultimately being anti-vaxxers?

Like I said earlier though, you want the Co$ hit where it hurts you go for the money.  Money is their game and money is how they make up for all their other shortcomings (mainly lack of membership).  Go for their tax exemption and you'll not only hurt 'em, you'll hurt other religions that are doing bad stuff by association.
 
2014-02-21 02:58:35 PM

mrming: machodonkeywrestler: You can't "know" they are false. You have a belief. A faith one might say.

Any theory must have a set of criteria that both prove it true (an ability to predict) as well as false ( negation of said theory). Science makes the tremendous leap of assuming that all observable behavior is ultimately based out of effects that can be observed.

Thus, Science deals with and only with knowledge that is knowable. Theories must be falsifiable as well as provable and this must be done within the limits of what is observable. As a theory pretty much all religions fail. Most aren't falsifiable; and none are provable via observation. IE, we can't see God(s) hand directly. Worse, we can't even see a consistent action by any deity in the observable world. IE, no God defends their temple from defilement.

As a scientific theory the existence of deities is by virtue of its inability to be falsified, false. Thus I and many others can indeed know without resorting to faith that as far as we understand the observable reality around us there are no Gods. The theory can't stand on its own merits due to being malformed and that is simply that.

Can that reality be false? Sure. Science actually highlights that in many areas. Theories regarding reality do in fact change, as well as what is 'known' because of them. We used to believe in ether binding everything to a single time-frame. Now we don't. And its verifiable via observation. Theories come and go. But I believe in them, have faith in them no more than I do in a spork. Once it fails me I find a better one and move on. Tools and math don't require nor demand this belief/faith/devotion that you are attempting to attribute.


The theory that they are false, in comparing known religions to eachother as well as other works of fiction does give us a theory with some credence.
We know people lie.  We know they do so for comfort, for power, for riches.  We also know people can believe in things that are not real.  Even somewhat sane people can fall victim to false memories and indoctrination and things of that nature.

Proof, no, but highly likely that it's all a bunch of rubbish.  Enough credence so as to relegate it all as nonsense out of hand, not worthy of any investigation.

Add to that there aren't many questions that actually get answered "because god".

In our ignorant past, it was easy to blame lightning, emotion, even babies on god.

Now, it's not so easy.  It's more like god is a set-up.  Framed to have done all those and more, yet nothing sticks.

Indeed, God is Verbal Kint.
 
2014-02-21 03:07:19 PM
It's funny in that it sounds like Scientology has some tenants in common with the modern Church of Satan (Cos)...except the CoS does it in large to be assholes to the religous/general sheeple...it's more of an antireligion-religion who care only about the betterment/success of themselves as individuals.

from AvgAmerGuy's statement upthread
"After a while, you've learned techniques that allow you to control your emotions and this empowers you to act in very aggressive ways without getting caught up in your own sense of humility or empathy. People are there to be used, and you are there to use them. It preys on the tendency of people to go along and get along. The truly sociopathic make it to this level and stay there becoming more sociopathic."

That could be slipped into the rhetoric of CoS, seamlessly, I think they call it "Greater Magic"...or maybe lesser, I don't remember.
 
2014-02-21 03:16:54 PM
just noticed "CoS" can be used for both^^ duh
 
2014-02-21 03:21:44 PM

2KanZam: That could be slipped into the rhetoric of CoS, seamlessly, I think they call it "Greater Magic"...or maybe lesser, I don't remember.



What's also valuable is that they may grant you revenge upon your foes at the Food Network
 
2014-02-21 03:38:20 PM

Wolf892: So what I've figured out is that David Miscavich is a Bond Villian who happens to be the head of an actual evil organization. That's crazy, too bad there aren't any real life Jame Bonds to deal with him. :(


The real life James Bonds are trying to keep the world from blowing up. Scientology doesn't register on their radar.

/The world is a dark and terrifying place...
//if you come away from a conversation with me and like life, I've done my job wrong.
 
2014-02-21 04:00:07 PM
There is an American soap opera that has a story line going right now that is about a character constantly escaping from a mental institution that is called 'Miscavige'.
 
2014-02-21 04:03:25 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: As to why become a Scientologist - nowadays anyone who can google can find out their whole crazy belief system in no time, but it used to be a closely guarded secret. They sued the shiat out of the first people who publicized it.Rather than presenting everything all at once, which any sane person would reject, they'd get you to pay to audit until you reached the next level, you'd be fed another little dribble of the theology behind it all. By the time you had the whole picture, you were already heavily invested in it, both spiritually and financially. It's very hard for someone to admit that they've paid tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars over decades to hear a bunch of bullshiat - much easier to pretend it isn't bullshiat, especially when every step of the way you only have to accept a tiny amount more bullshiat. Combine that with all the collected blackmail material (it's like if the Catholic Church made you write out your confessions, filed them away and later said they'd have to tell everyone that horrible secret you've kept all these years if you ever left) and you have a pretty good recipe for once you're sucked in, you're all in, crazy shiat be damned.


This is the thing that I think a lot of people don't understand...the completely off-the-wall stuff wasn't widely known to the general public until the last 10-15 years or so; their entire operation hinges on the iron-fisted control of information, which was exponentially easier prior to the advent of the Internet.  Scientology is presented to the uninitiated as a pragmatic, scientific approach to understanding the dynamics of human behavior...what makes us think and act the way we do, both within ourselves and toward each other.  There are plenty of detailed, pseudo-scientific anecdotes given to validate the presented axioms (this is important - ideas aren't stated as theories or observations the way, say, psychology is, but as scientifically proven TRUTHS; again, much easier to pull off before Google was around for rudimentary fact-checking).

Hubbard liked to wrap his science-fiction imagination around little everyday foibles that people could observe in everyday life, and they'd accept his explanation because it seemed to ring true with their observations...kind of the way you feel when you read something written be someone who shares the same closely-held political views as your own...like "this guy really GETS it".  Just as an example - one of Scientology's more pervasive principles is that everyone is "at cause" over his or her own situations in life; that is to say, you're directly responsible for the environment you find yourself in, without exception.  If you're minding your own business walking down the street and someone runs up and stabs you for apparently no reason at all, you did SOMETHING to "pull that in"...there's a mathematical kind of karmic balance at play by which you somehow deserved it.  This seems like a sweeping overgeneralization that all but the most gullible would balk at, but the reader is peppered with everyday examples of this principle in play that almost everyone can relate to; the office jerk who gets beaten within an inch of his life at a bar one fateful night - well, he "pulled that in" with all those "overts" he committed stealing lunches in the breakroom...of course, in reality the guy was just an asshole who finally mouthed off to a bigger asshole and got called out on it, but Hubbard would throw in more and more examples that made you think "oh yeah, kinda like that time X happened to Frank..." until they really could seem to agglomerate into a plausible body of proof.

My (apparently long-winded - sorry!) point is that before all the stuff about Xenu and body-thetans was common knowledge, it's not completely absurd to see how people who were genuinely only trying to improve their lot in life (or even help their fellow man) would allow themselves to accept enough of what Hubbard was saying to get more and more incrementally entrenched as you describe...the man was a piss-poor writer without even a basic understanding of the classical sciences that he claimed to master so readily, but he was a truly brilliant criminal.
 
2014-02-21 04:19:18 PM

TheBigJerk: Isaac Asimov was considered a writer of "hard" scifi and his speculative fiction was quite open to the idea of ESP. He was a contemporary of Hubbard and provides a pretty good context to what was "believable" to folks during the creation of Dianetics.



It isn't a matter of what is believable, rather it is a matter of what doesn't over-strain a willing suspension of disbelief.
I'm willing to accept Larry Niven's Grogs and Thrintun for the sake of a good story, but that doesn't mean I think telepathic aliens are "believable."
 
2014-02-21 04:22:58 PM
Holy crap!!! I didn't realize that Booker T, Dave Chappelle or Warwick Davis were Scientologists.
img.fark.net
 
2014-02-21 04:23:08 PM

fireclown: El Pachuco: daemoncan: Is it just me, or....

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 306x525]

.....  is this guy the next Bond Villain?

[f.edgesuite.net image 425x340]

A teeny-tiny Bond villain.

Goldpinky?

wow.  He might really BE shorter than Tom Cruise.


The googles list his height as 5' 5".
 
2014-02-21 04:31:29 PM

theropod: When can we get Scientology classified as "not a religion" and thereby no longer subject to First Amendment protection?


Do you really mean take away their non-profit status?
Because the first amendment protects more than just religion, speech and assembly rights would still exist.
 
2014-02-21 04:43:12 PM

give me doughnuts: The googles list his height as 5' 5".


Like all the 5'9" guys with drivers licenses that say they're 6'?
 
2014-02-21 04:48:35 PM

omeganuepsilon: Felgraf: YEah, that's actually the really goddamn scary thing about brainwashing: There's a lot of evidence that suggests that *intelligence is not a defense against brainwashing*.

Depends on what you deem intelligence to be.

More pointedly:
A lot of "smart" people can fall into believing anything, because they desire for it to be true, the subconscious makes it happen.  Rational intelligence is irrelevant.  The apt involved trait would be self awareness, or rather the part of it that deals with the capacity for introspection.

You may have to be smart to be self aware in that regard, but being smart does not necessarily include self awareness.


SO take it down a notch.
The great majority of people who follow a religion were indoctrinated into that religion while they were infants, children and teens.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination#Religious_indoctrination

That indoctrination typically includes things like:
bad things will happen if you leave the faith (hell),
varying degrees of parental disapproval (disapprove, to shunning, to death to apostates),
you should have children and raise them the same,
and don't question any of the teachings.

Indoctrination is brainwashing, wrapped with the authority of religion.
I wonder if the requirement is intelligence to BREAK the indoctrination.

Somewhere in my education (formal and informal) I developed the ability to critically think.
And I applied it to everything. Religion can never stand to be critically analysed.

God exists.
Therefore you must go to church every sunday or you go to hell.

LOL
None of the tenets of faith logically follow from the existence of a god, just people making rules so they can be in charge.

/Also. the rapture happened years ago and we were all left behind (tm).
 
2014-02-21 05:03:15 PM
...always push power in the direction of anyone on whose power you depend. It may be more money for the power or more ease or a snarling defense of the power to a critic or even the dull thud of one of his enemies in the dark or the glorious blaze of the whole enemy camp as a birthday surprise.

He doesn't have to know all the bad news and if he's a power really, he won't ask all the time, "What are all those dead bodies doing at the door?" And if you are clever, you never let it be thought HE killed them - that weakens you and also hurts the power source. "Well, boss, about all those dead bodies, nobody at all will suppose you did it. She over there, those pink legs sticking out, didn't like me."

When you move off a point of power, pay all your obligations on the nail, empower all your friends completely and move off with your pockets full of artillery, potential blackmail on every erstwhile rival, unlimited funds in your private account and the addresses of experienced assassins and go live in Bulgravia and bribe the police.

  ---L. Ron Hubbard


I like him!
 
2014-02-21 05:11:28 PM

generallyso: It sounds like your criteria is the number of people providing the source material and how long before modern record-keeping they lived rather than the fact one supposes invisible space ghosts and the other supposes invisible sky wizards.


The difference is rather simple:

Religon is a used car, whose odometer has rolled over several times, is covered in rust, dents and bumper stickers, and upon which no two pieces of the body match up in color or manufacturing date. There is little left from the original construction, apart from the frame, which is sagging badly as it's being held together with duct tape and faith.

Scientology is a factory fresh pile of sh*t which has been stamped out on a press, vaugely in the shape of a car.

I wouldn't want to try and drive either of them, but they aren't really the same thing.
 
2014-02-21 05:18:53 PM

fyrewede: IlGreven:
The only difference between a cult and a religion is time and money.

AND how easy it is for you to leave without being either killed in the attempt or hassled and stalked for the rest of your life if you manage to escape.

Scientology is notorious for harassing "defectors."


Nope.  Christians are famous for harrassing expat atheists, too: "YOU WERE NEVER REALLY ATHEIST!"  And they were worse back in the Inquisition ages.

Meanwhile, even so-called "moderate" Muslims who abhor the violence some of their religion use on women say that the penalty for apostasy is death, and would gladly take out said punishment themselves.

Again, I say, the only difference between a cult and a religion is time and money. Influence, essentially.
 
2014-02-21 05:54:09 PM
Skirl Hutsenreiter: There was an acting coach with a very successful acting course who became an early Scientologist.  He introduced it to several actors who went on to be successful.  Then, it became a thing you did simply because the core group around this coach did it, and obviously it had helped those other dudes.  So it snowballed.

Hmm, I wonder how deep this particular rabbit hole goes.  What if the 'acting coach' was in cahoots with a couple of major studio executives? How many -- or how few -- conspirators would it have taken to launch an influential cult, simply by selecting a few credulous, good-looking, and modestly-talented people and turning them into influential superstars who would credit Scientology for their success?

It would explain a lot if the Scientology celebrity recruitment process were the exact opposite of what everybody's been assuming.  It's not that actors are inherently a bunch of gullible nitwits, it's that gullible nitwits can easily be trained to become actors.
 
2014-02-21 06:28:29 PM

namatad: Indoctrination is brainwashing, wrapped with the authority of religion.
I wonder if the requirement is intelligence to BREAK the indoctrination.


That would fall in line with what I posted.

Intelligence wouldn't guarantee the ability to analyze your own thoughts.

*shrugs*

As I said, it depends on how you define intelligence.  Some of our greatest minds are also religious.  Some of those minds aren't necessarily all that sharp, but have a good memory.  The ability to rapidly recall pertinent information is not necessarily equal to the ability to perceive concepts and understand the inter-workings of things.

Myself...I'm fairly smart, but at times my memory is poor.  On an IQ or asvab test, I score good on patterns, mechanics, things of that nature, very reliably from test to test.   Math is so/so, because I don't necessarily recall the relevant methodologies. Not so hot on shifting data from column A to column B or word associations.(some of the words I've seen employed are off the wall obscure terms, considering I actually read a LOT and this is not an area I typically can't recall).

I love psychology though.  I understand some aspects of it that a rocket scientist astro-physicist CERN / Hadron collider engineer may not.

More shortly put, there are varying areas of "intelligence" and no accurate overall test.  They're all rough approximations, some of which are heavily dependent on whether or not your education included a specific minor detail within a broader topic, relegating it almost to trivia.

Some people can barely walk and chew bubble-gum at the same time, yet they can shift data from A to B like no other.

Is that "intelligence"?

I personally don't think so.  I'm of the variety that thinks calculators should be allowed on tests, as well as reference materials such as encyclopedia's or the internet at large.  Of course, your test's would not only be "why did X happen", but also "what would have happened if it had been Y".

We should not be tested on recall ability as much as functional knowledge and understanding.  Logic is something that's severely under developed in schools.  Math doesn't count as it's somewhat abstract, and once you have the basics down, it's more a matter of recall of the relevant methodology, and the drudgery of applying them.

IMO, the way we're taught what to remember, and then later how to think, is maybe a bit ass backwards, and we lose a great opportunity with younger minds by trying to cram in facts past capacity.  Facts, which, barring apocalypse, can be dug up at any given time.

At those younger years, we're giving them fish instead of teaching them how to fish.  If we'd teach them how a little younger, we could save energy on not having to spoon feed them, and more time showing them how to actually solve problems and think critically.

*shrugs again*

/tangential, I know
//and TLDR, obviously
///slow afternoon when you're laid up with a broken foot
 
2014-02-21 06:34:32 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: Khazar-Khum: AverageAmericanGuy:

So it's not a religion that asks you to accept it all at once. You're gradually eased in. The teachings are both allegorical and prescriptive. You learn how to take control of your own life and emotions, and the sense of belonging and support keeps most people involved, much like a regular religion.

Except that, unlike every other religion, you have to pay through the teeth for the enlightenment. If you go to  a Rabbi and ask him about Judaism, he'll gladly talk to you for free. Same with every priest, pastor, imam, priestess or whatever you want. Many will happily give you information, maybe even a copy of their holy books--which, incidentally, can also be found in any library, or openly for sale. In Scientology, you have to pay for the books, which cannot be found anywhere else and are not sold to outsiders.  If you feel awful and need to talk, Pastor is there for you. In Scientology, you have to pay. And pay, and pay, and pay. It's not at all unusual to hear of people who sank several hundred thousand dollars into it.

And a professor of English may love to chat with you about Shakespeare on Sunday afternoons at the park, but if you really want to learn at a deep level you're going to have to pay up.

You ever see how much college costs these days?


College is a religion, now?
 
2014-02-21 06:43:59 PM

omeganuepsilon: namatad: Indoctrination is brainwashing, wrapped with the authority of religion.
I wonder if the requirement is intelligence to BREAK the indoctrination.

That would fall in line with what I posted.

Intelligence wouldn't guarantee the ability to analyze your own thoughts.

*shrugs*

As I said, it depends on how you define intelligence.  Some of our greatest minds are also religious.  Some of those minds aren't necessarily all that sharp, but have a good memory.  The ability to rapidly recall pertinent information is not necessarily equal to the ability to perceive concepts and understand the inter-workings of things.

Myself...I'm fairly smart, but at times my memory is poor.  On an IQ or asvab test, I score good on patterns, mechanics, things of that nature, very reliably from test to test.   Math is so/so, because I don't necessarily recall the relevant methodologies. Not so hot on shifting data from column A to column B or word associations.(some of the words I've seen employed are off the wall obscure terms, considering I actually read a LOT and this is not an area I typically can't recall).

I love psychology though.  I understand some aspects of it that a rocket scientist astro-physicist CERN / Hadron collider engineer may not.

More shortly put, there are varying areas of "intelligence" and no accurate overall test.  They're all rough approximations, some of which are heavily dependent on whether or not your education included a specific minor detail within a broader topic, relegating it almost to trivia.

Some people can barely walk and chew bubble-gum at the same time, yet they can shift data from A to B like no other.

Is that "intelligence"?

I personally don't think so.  I'm of the variety that thinks calculators should be allowed on tests, as well as reference materials such as encyclopedia's or the internet at large.  Of course, your test's would not only be "why did X happen", but also "what would have happened if it had been Y".

We should not be te ...


I would argue that memorization is not intelligence.
It is ridiculous that spelling bees still have the draw that they do.
LOOK OUR KID IS A ROBOT!

vocab tests are a function of exposure and recall
cultural reference tests are a function of wealth and leisure (you havent read dante in the original? you dont speak greek?!  you havent read all of the classics? LOL)
where the test of intelligence gets more "universal" and interesting is in the things that you mentioned.
patterns, problem solving, and other strange abilities ... critical thinking
certainly reading comprehension is a useful skill.
Base knowledge in how the universe works allows me to read a report or study on a completely new topic and get a tacit understanding, or better.

A robot who has memorized the bible, but is unable to discuss what they have read from a critical point of view is completely uninteresting.

ALAS, the discussion devolves into fights about IQ, not being able to "TEST IT", and cultural blah blah blah .

In the end, my only question is, can I have an "intelligent" discussion with you? On pretty much any topic?
YAY


/csb - I had a great discussion the other day with a religious person who was having premarital sex. What made it quite interesting is that she is brilliant, religious and not a hypocrite. She considered the sex a sin and that she was flawed. But at least she acknowledged the sin and flaw, rather than choosing to pretend the sex wasnt a sin in her faith.  So many people might feel guilty about the sex, but not enough to consider it a sin.

But we were only able to have the conversation because she COULD think critically. 
Rather than the mindless robots that wouldnt even consider having the sex. no thinking for them. just obey the rules.
 
2014-02-21 06:44:03 PM

Hickory-smoked: College is a religion, now?


If atheism is, college surely is.

They not only teach, they take large sums of money, provide for feeling superior, and directly influence moral behavior(leaning decidedly liberal in most places), even provide a lot of foot in the door in the grand good ole' boy schematic.

/half joking of course
//neither is a religion
 
2014-02-21 07:01:55 PM

namatad: ALAS, the discussion devolves into fights about IQ, not being able to "TEST IT", and cultural blah blah blah .


Inevitable, really.  But really, it was my first thought on the topic.  All depends on how you(collective) define "intelligence", knowing everyone associates it with whatever they feel like.  One of those things that's entirely too flexible, almost meaningless at times.

namatad: n the end, my only question is, can I have an "intelligent" discussion with you? On pretty much any topic?
YAY


Not sure if you're asking me, or referring to the collective "you", as in that is the foundation upon which you judge others.

Me, depends on my mood, and the presence of assholes whom I cannot resist kicking about, a personal addiction flaw, I enjoy being right, always, but especially so when the other party starts out so incredibly smug.  I like taking, or at least trying to, take people down a peg.  Also fun to exercise that part of how I think, even if I'm "trolling", I do tend to not be dishonest.(as where some are just after the bites, even to defend that which they agree with)

If one can present reasons and explain some of the critical thought, or in other words, convey actual understanding/comprehension of concepts, we can talk, even agree to disagree.

IE in the current thread about an atheist church, people keep repeating how it's "stupid" as objective fact, when it's clearly a subjective opinion.  If they could admit it's an opinion and that they know no one else cares, I'd not ever reply.  That they flaunt it as such...that's what makes it worth it.  Giving them hell for it, but it's slowing down now.

On my way to watch a movie and put my leg up at any rate.  I will favorite you however, you seem fun and interesting, and not completely "The internet is serious business!", and maybe most importantly on Fark, not overly judgemental.
 
2014-02-21 08:20:03 PM

AndTheyAllLived: Oh, and that bullshiat phrase reminds me:  there's also a real power in people having a common made-up language to make them feel that they're part of something special and exclusive.


Very true. There are a lot of Scientologists who can't have a conversation without using the made-up terms. The special lingo adds to their sense of belonging and exclusivity. I used to be very conversant in Scientologese, but part of my job was to review and edit promo material that was going out to the public, and making sure it was expressed in common "wog" terms, and not filled with Hubbardisms. (Many of the terms were existing common English, but with archaic usage instead of more modern usage. If you dug deep enough in the Oxford English Dictionary, there were examples of the word or term used "Hubbard style", but they'd only make sense to language historians and Scientologists.)
 
2014-02-21 09:35:44 PM
People, look at Angry, Gay Pope. com.... Click on Twin Peaks.. I live just a couple miles from there. ya its very strange..
 
2014-02-21 10:18:51 PM
f.edgesuite.net
 
2014-02-21 10:20:53 PM

Biner: AndTheyAllLived: Oh, and that bullshiat phrase reminds me:  there's also a real power in people having a common made-up language to make them feel that they're part of something special and exclusive.

Very true. There are a lot of Scientologists who can't have a conversation without using the made-up terms. The special lingo adds to their sense of belonging and exclusivity. I used to be very conversant in Scientologese, but part of my job was to review and edit promo material that was going out to the public, and making sure it was expressed in common "wog" terms, and not filled with Hubbardisms. (Many of the terms were existing common English, but with archaic usage instead of more modern usage. If you dug deep enough in the Oxford English Dictionary, there were examples of the word or term used "Hubbard style", but they'd only make sense to language historians and Scientologists.)



And how much of the Tom Cruise uproar was anything beyond language?  He looked good, the production values were fine.  It wasn't the crazy laugh, it was him saying LRH, KSW and SP.  Either it was people getting Google curious, or "Holy sh--, they use a different language, which is the definition of different!  That's how we KNOW who the other guy is.."

I honestly wish nobody had ever heard the name Xenu.  So much distraction, and reporters don't write about how the mechanisms work on "normal" people.  And I am very sad for Shelly Miscavige.  I think she's another Annie Broeker... I don't think they killed her, but I do think she's scared, sad and alone.

(Farkers - Annie and her husband were L Ron Hubbard's heir apparents.  Annie died the same way I suspect Shelley's living.)
 
2014-02-21 10:44:17 PM

El Pachuco: daemoncan: Is it just me, or....

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 306x525]

.....  is this guy the next Bond Villain?

[f.edgesuite.net image 425x340]

A teeny-tiny Bond villain.

Goldpinky?


I wonder if he's as tall as Tommy.
 
2014-02-21 10:44:25 PM

furiousidiot: ...always push power in the direction of anyone on whose power you depend. It may be more money for the power or more ease or a snarling defense of the power to a critic or even the dull thud of one of his enemies in the dark or the glorious blaze of the whole enemy camp as a birthday surprise.

He doesn't have to know all the bad news and if he's a power really, he won't ask all the time, "What are all those dead bodies doing at the door?" And if you are clever, you never let it be thought HE killed them - that weakens you and also hurts the power source. "Well, boss, about all those dead bodies, nobody at all will suppose you did it. She over there, those pink legs sticking out, didn't like me."

When you move off a point of power, pay all your obligations on the nail, empower all your friends completely and move off with your pockets full of artillery, potential blackmail on every erstwhile rival, unlimited funds in your private account and the addresses of experienced assassins and go live in Bulgravia and bribe the police.

  ---L. Ron Hubbard



That is straight out of Machiavelli's The Prince and is perfectly exactly how minions close to kings, popes and presidents have been working the surviving-whilst-profiting-near-power game since forever.

One of the most famous aforementioned minions is Thomas Wolsey (mover, shaker and thiever for Henry VIII).

Gotta give Hubbard credit for being a master of understanding, creating and radiating the illusion of power.  He's a psychopath, but people who destroy for power always are.
 
2014-02-21 10:49:52 PM
Biner:  I spent nearly 20 years as a non-Scientologist (wog) working at a middle-management level in a company run by Scientologists. (Using policies written by Hubbard.) I know more about Scientology than a lot of Scientologists. I've worked with Hubbard's daughter. My sister is in the Sea Org. So I'm pretty familiar with Scientology.


Any thoughts on exactly what the 'religion' part of Scientology is comprised of?
 
2014-02-21 11:16:02 PM

OooShiny: Biner:  I spent nearly 20 years as a non-Scientologist (wog) working at a middle-management level in a company run by Scientologists. (Using policies written by Hubbard.) I know more about Scientology than a lot of Scientologists. I've worked with Hubbard's daughter. My sister is in the Sea Org. So I'm pretty familiar with Scientology.


Any thoughts on exactly what the 'religion' part of Scientology is comprised of?


They have their own creation myth that involves aliens, spirits and nuclear bombs.

I shiat you not.
 
2014-02-22 12:46:28 AM

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: How is it the organization that broke into IRS offices gets to be tax exempt, again?


Lawyers. They filed so many suits the IRS just caved in.
 
2014-02-22 01:31:27 AM

TwistedFark: OooShiny: Biner:  I spent nearly 20 years as a non-Scientologist (wog) working at a middle-management level in a company run by Scientologists. (Using policies written by Hubbard.) I know more about Scientology than a lot of Scientologists. I've worked with Hubbard's daughter. My sister is in the Sea Org. So I'm pretty familiar with Scientology.


Any thoughts on exactly what the 'religion' part of Scientology is comprised of?

They have their own creation myth that involves aliens, spirits and nuclear bombs.

I shiat you not.


That pretty much sums it up. It's simply a belief system. A way to explain the unexplainable. They have a creation myth that, in my opinion, is no more outlandish than those of other religions. Oddly, though, that whole story is not discussed among believers the way that Genesis is discussed among Christians. When they learn the story (pretty far into their "training"), they are told it is super secret and not to be shared with anyone. By then, most of them are brainwashed enough to buy into the idea that having that knowledge before being properly trained for it is unhealthy, and even deadly.
 
2014-02-22 02:57:09 AM
Is it just me, or does that picture not look like they are the same person?

Maybe "she" isn't missing.  Maybe "she" is actually HIM!
 
2014-02-22 07:18:40 AM

generallyso: Cerebral Ballsy: Bullsh*t is bullsh*t. And all religion is bullsh*t.

Scientology though.. That's a cult.


All religions start as cults so its not especially meaningful to label them as one or the other.


A cult is a religion that's difficult to impossible to leave.
 
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