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(KPBS San Diego)   Steampunk group forcibly ejected from mall from being too well dressed, nerds   (kpbs.org) divider line 232
    More: Asinine, security guards, steampunk, Dr. Watson, Oceanside  
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15024 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Feb 2014 at 10:33 AM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-20 02:01:08 PM  

JonnyBGoode: So far the mall has done nothing but dodge the issue and make statements like "if you tell us you're coming, we'd be glad to have you back." So people have to make an appointment to go to the mall now? And if wearing a cravat is my choice of attire, I'm not welcome?

Technically, this is a clear violation of California's Unruh Civil Right Act, which prohibits a business's discrimination of customers based on "Unconventional Dress".

By the way, please sign the petition to get the mall to make an apology to the my group.


It's ok you don't have to hide it.
 
2014-02-20 02:02:16 PM  

bigbadideasinaction: Okay, I'm a freaking cosplayer, so I'm well versed in looking like an idiot in a public space and have no problem with people dressing up, but...

...sorry guys, grow up and stop expecting the world to accommodate your hobbies, and stop giving some poor schlub on security a headache of having to deal with you. You can try, but don't freaking whine about being kicked out, because you didn't ask, and they're not obligated to let you attention whore in their space.

No, you're not "freaking the mundanes", you're annoying people, that's all. I've gone to a bunch of places for photos where we didn't have permission, and if the people there have a problem, you suck it up and leave, period. I've also done it and had people there think it's awesome and be great about it, and that's great too. Sometimes you liven up their boring day and they let you get photos posing on the cop motorcycles, or they bend the rules to let you get a better shot, sometimes you're a headache and they ask you to leave. Bend the rules a bit, but realize you're ultimately the one in the wrong and GTFO if they have a problem with it.

Don't expect others to bend over backwards for your arrested development, and this is coming from a guy who occasionally dresses as a cartoon character for fun.


I was actually disappointed your profile didn't have a picture of you in costume, not sure why, but I was curious
 
2014-02-20 02:12:41 PM  
So, a "culture" based upon a notion of what life would be if we never evolved past steam as a primary power source.  Sounds fun.  I man, they ain't showing up in face masks and swords.  I think white people should be allowed to dress funny, too.
 
2014-02-20 02:12:53 PM  

TNel: JonnyBGoode: So far the mall has done nothing but dodge the issue and make statements like "if you tell us you're coming, we'd be glad to have you back." So people have to make an appointment to go to the mall now? And if wearing a cravat is my choice of attire, I'm not welcome?

Technically, this is a clear violation of California's Unruh Civil Right Act, which prohibits a business's discrimination of customers based on "Unconventional Dress".

By the way, please sign the petition to get the mall to make an apology to the my group.

It's ok you don't have to hide it.


I'm not affiliated with the group in any way. I live about 180 miles from them.
 
2014-02-20 02:16:52 PM  
My steampunk hat would have given the fat mall cops an aneurysm.

www.headnhome.com
 
2014-02-20 02:18:06 PM  

OgreMagi: My steampunk hat would have given the fat mall cops an aneurysm.

[www.headnhome.com image 850x755]


Omg it has BULLETZ! I think they would have wet themselves.
 
2014-02-20 02:19:43 PM  

kregh99: Steampunkers:  contact the mall ahead of time when you're a group that large.

Mall cops:  Seriously?  These people looked threatening in any way, shape, or form?  Stop taking the frustration that the police academy rejected your application out on innocent people having a bit of good, clean fun.


They should have known that if you want to go to the mall, you must look bland, shabby, or vulgar in a bland, shabby kind of way.  Absoluely nothing imaginative allowed.
 
2014-02-20 02:20:12 PM  
Btw, all this dime store authoritarian chest beating from failed pizza delivery drivers is just gonna keep getting more abrasive.
 
2014-02-20 02:20:21 PM  

JonnyBGoode: OgreMagi: My steampunk hat would have given the fat mall cops an aneurysm.

[www.headnhome.com image 850x755]

Omg it has BULLETZ! I think they would have wet themselves.


They're dummy round (no powder or cap), but I'm sure the GFWs (Gun Fearing Wussies) would still insist they are evil and dangerous.
 
2014-02-20 02:21:47 PM  

JonnyBGoode: Nytfall: advres: Those were possibly the lamest steampunk outfits of all time.
 
Came to say this.  The old couple they showed first also seem to think old timey=steampunk.

They intentionally toned down their attire for the mall. It says that in the article. "Most of the people were in simple Victorian dress because it looks so good on a carousel animal for a photo."


But even simple Victorian attire was just too much for this mall to handle, apparently.


Funny thing is, it really wasn't "toned down" because that's how most steampunkers look without the fake weapons. But yeah, malls are someplace of an oddity, they claim they want uniformity and conformity among the stores and the guests and then can't understand why a mall dies out. If the mall allowed some variety in it's renters, instead of every store being a Gap or Express or Radio Shack, then it might get some more customers, since most purchasing for those products can be done online. Everytime I go to the flea markets here in Jersey, they're packed to the brim with people despite the fact that the quality of products and food aren't up to the supposed standards of malls. Of course when a mall is "dying" - http://www.deadmalls.com/ - they suddenly let in the non-conventional lease holders, though usually by then it's too late to save that mall (Nearby me, Seaview Square mall, had a Slot Car racing patron in a large store about a year or two before they closed it's doors). Malls also love to pretend to be "upscale" and change their design to an "lifestyle center" (aka "outdoor mall") which mimics as best they can the downtown that mall replaced when it was originally built. Malls should welcome this oddity to come in (they welcomed the Punk and Goth crowds in) though it will be hard to service them when your most "alternative" stores are Hot Topic and Spencers Gifts.
 
2014-02-20 02:24:55 PM  

TV's Vinnie: IMO, Steampunk is a joke!

If you're going to get all "Retro Fiction", then go with the early 1930's style, a la "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow".

[ww4.hdnux.com image 628x353]

It's a lot more sophisticated than gluing gears onto a top hat.



Only if airships are involved.  I'll put up with a lot of nonsense in order to watch a good Zeppelin scene.
 
2014-02-20 02:28:25 PM  

zimbomba63: trappedspirit: On the way to or from different events I have shopped at the grocery store, eaten in numerous restaurants, and otherwise interacted normally with people.

You cannot wear steamedpunk costumes and interact normally with anyone.

Sure you can.  When dealing with a Goth, I made a habit of not acting shocked, outraged or even curious about their lifestyle.  You could see the disappointment in their eyes.  Treating them as one of the "mundanes" is actually kind of cruel, when you get down to it, but, when you're out attention whoring, you have to realize you don't have an absolute right to receive that attention.


Sigh. Let me explain something to you...

Those people in the whiteface with ridiculous harlequin makeup and clothes they bought at a specialty shop?  They're not goths.  They're something else. They may call themselves "goth" and you may think they're goth, but they're not. They're vampires, most likely. Baby goths, if you must. They're mostly just emos who stole the word "goth", though.

I was part of the group that would eventually be called goth in the 70s/80s. I wasn't an attention whore, and in fact, the whole point of my style was that I wanted people to  leave me alone, but that I also wanted to display my artistic side. Of course, the look was not this garish stupid look you see today. We wore dark clothes, but they were invariably poached from second-hand or thrift shop and then altered by us. We took a little punk, a little classic horror, and a lot of 1920s silent film style and wrapped it in a modern look. There was no whiteface. The eye makeup was more subtle, designed to emphasize the eyes in the same way it did for film stars like Clara Bow, Rudy Valentino, Charles Chaplin, or Louise Brooks. The horror influence was subtle-- We didn't pretend to be vampires or cover ourselves in Halloween trinkets or symbols.

Our clothes were not made for us by some mall shop or online goth shop. We did it all ourselves, recycling cool outfits from previous decades and altering them a bit to fit modern needs and aesthetics.

A few of us had odd hair-- Big hair, mohawks, multi-colored hair, etc.-- but that was the punk influence (we were, after all, originally called "postpunk" or simply "alternatives"). We also loved our combat boots like any good punk would.

And despite you thinking we might have been seeking attention, we were actually intensely PRIVATE people. We had a tight-knit, small group in those days. When outsiders asked us questions or made observations about our appearance, we were often insulted because part of the intention of dressing in an artistic, alternative way was to steer people away, not to invite questions.

And because we were a branch of punk, we weren't afraid to drive our Doc Martins up your ass if you tried to rag on us for our taste in art, music, or clothing. These modern "goths" are wimps compared to what goth was originally; A mix of eclectic artists, musicians, and intellectuals who DID NOT WANT the preppies, jocks, burnouts, nerds, or other cliques to infiltrate our group or bother us.

You think a goth looks like this:
img.fark.net

th09.deviantart.net


When actually, we looked a lot more like this:
24.media.tumblr.com
25.media.tumblr.com
(This girl's more early 90s, but still hanging on to the ideals)


25.media.tumblr.com
(of course, we all tried to individualize our look, too, but it wasn't far off from this)

The vampire look (begun, by most accounts, by The Damned) was picked up by the posers who started to infiltrate our subculture in the late 80s, and by the early 1990s  goth was dead. The subculture can't exist if the members are not mainly artists and intellectuals. That was who we were; We were the artsy-fartsy branch of punk. When the dumbasses started dressing like The Crow and following us around, they watered down the group with idiocy and made our previous pursuits and conversations impossible. Not to mention we were all entering the world as adults, spreading out, losing touch, and finding ourselves.

On the west coast and down in Florida the new batch of kids who saw what we had done and took it to the ridiculous Hot Topic extremes kept calling themselves "goth", but they weren't. I guess they are now, because they're what people associate with the word, leaving us-- the original goths (who didn't call ourselves that, anyway; That was the media's fault) having to call ourselves "postpunk" or "old school goth" to make it clear we were nothing like the twit goth cosplayers you see today.

The irony is that we were all rather camera-shy, so there aren't many photos of actual goths hanging out. We all covered our faces or scattered when someone pointed a camera at us. I'm not kidding! So all people see today to reference this era of gothic punk are the celebrities, and they took things a bit further than we did because they WERE trying to drum up attention. That was their job, after all.

Straight punks, on the other hand, loved having their picture taken, and they were usually quick to have their middle finger out and a rude look on their face when it happened. They are closer to what we were than the modern "goths" are, for sure, but they were also more extreme than we were. They were the extroverts of the alternative scene, while we were the introverts. We were happy with small groups; They liked big, loud events. We were happy with each other; They wanted everyone to see them and respect their lifestyle choices. We were out of the public eye; They were in your face.

Just like greasers from the 1950s, original goths were the product of a specific era. They existed because of that era, not because of the clothes. You can dress someone like Danny from Grease,  but he's not an actual member of that subculture, and never can be. That time is done.
 
2014-02-20 02:38:45 PM  

studebaker hoch: [kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com image 450x275]

wtf


Seriously!  I would have thought Peter Sagal would look more like Alton Brown!
 
2014-02-20 02:47:10 PM  
Mall cops are some of the worst "security" officers I've ever encountered.  Speaking from the viewpoint of a security officer/investigator, they do things that (and are seeming allowed to do things) that I would have fired people for.  I was dating a girl that worked at a store in the mall and would often come and talk to her if I was in town and she had an empty store.  Without fail, when the mall cop would walk by, he would come over and ask her if I was bothering her.  She always would reply, "no, he is fine, ect ect He is my boyfriend."  The officer would leave,usually grumbling under his breath.  About a week before Christmas, I came in to drop her off some lunch.  I walked to her store, brown bag in hand, exchanged a pleasantry, and felt a hand on my shoulder.  I turned around, and guess what, it was the same guy.  He starts yelling at me, "I am going to arrest you for loitering, if you do not leave immediately!" To which I replied, "You need to take your hand off of me, right now." His eyes grew wide and face reddened. He cued his mic, and requested backup.
  A little back ground in security law for the readers.  Most security forces are put into two or three categories, based upon job guidelines.  Now this varies by the state, but usually they are broken down into watchmen, which are strictly observe and report, armed security, and unarmed security.  Watchmen, which was the category that this particular idiot fell under, are by no means actually supposed to address anyone at any time, they are not even allowed defensive weapons. They are used to gather descriptions of offenders and report this to a law enforcement agency.  They have no powers of arrest.
        His "backup" arrived, three other mall officers one of which had a stun gun in his hand.  They were all out of breath, probably running from the far corner of the mall where the food court was.  They all exchanged a brief mishmash of radio codes, company lingo, and other words describing the situation.  Their conversation was as if someone had tossed a military radio protocol book, a police radio protocol book, and some internal security document into a blender and tried to assemble a sentence. The one with the stun gun held my particular attention, as I did not want to "ride the lightning" and possibly wet myself in front of my at the time girlfriend.  I yelled at them, "Next person that touches me, better have a license to do so!" and prepared for a fight, not exactly sure how this would all play out.  They looked very confused at my statement, but continued to close on me. I pointed my back down the isle, training taking over, so that I wouldn't have to fight them all at once.   At this time, I took out my cel phone and said "that's it, Im calling the cops and filing a complaint." That slowed them in their tracks and the first one said, "you really dont want to do that, you'll go to jail." Now I was really confused. What would I go to jail for? Do these guys know anything about their jobs? I saw one of the guards fumbling for a set of handcuffs from his belt.  The training part of my mind is screaming at me that I have to take down "sparky" first to have a chance at getting past the rest.  At this time, another uniformed officer walked into the front of the store. The two watchmen at the back, followed him as he pushed past them.  I recognized him as an actual police officer of the town we were in, and luckily, he recognized me from some shooting events we had been in together.  I smiled.  He spun around and ordered the watchmen to back up, and for the one to put down the stun gun.  They all snapped to, but continued to leer at me.  The cop called me by name, and came closer with a very puzzled look on his face.  He said under his breath, "what the fark is going on here?" I gestured to at the time girlfriend and explained my situation.  He looked even more confused.  He turned around and questioned the watchmen.  I saw him gesture a few times in my direction and they departed.  He came back, hand extended and as I shook his hand he simply shook his head.  With a laugh he said, "so, I guess you are going to want to file a complaint?" I nodded.

I filed a formal complaint later that day, and within a few days I received a letter from a law firm stating that I was banned from mall property unless I retracted my complaint. I gave the letter to our company lawyer reminding them that since I was also a process server, that they could not legally bar me from the property while I was acting on the court's behalf.  A return letter was never received, and I returned a few weeks later, mostly out of spite, to hand deliver a document that would have usually been mailed.  One of the watchmen did see me, and scuttled away talking on his radio.  I went back to talk to my then girlfriend and one of her coworkers said that they were very nervously asking her what she knew about what I did for a living, and my relationship was to the police.

I wonder, how many times has this situation played out before, only instead of someone like me, it was some goofy kid doing goofy things.  Had that letter that was sent to me been enough to keep some terrified kid quiet?  Is this mall service company just too big to care about their day to day workers' behavior?
 
2014-02-20 02:48:19 PM  

DarkVader: tripleseven: scottydoesntknow: Malls are private property. They have the right to determine who shops there. We are not denying this. However, state law also restricts how they can determine who can or cannot shop on their property.

Steampunk is not a protected class.

/Still an asinine move by the mall cops

No, not a protected class, but this falls under arbitrary discrimination, and since California has a specific, state level non discrimination policy called the Unruh civil rights, they would appear to have a good case for a 'suin.

Unruh was enacted to stop discrimination against people not specifically listed in the civil rights act, basically, gays etc, but is broadly interpreted to protect you from arbitrary discrimination.


I am not a lawyer, but if I was them, I would certainly be contacting one.

From the description in TFA, Unruh would appear to apply.  But from the plain text of the statute:

All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free and equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, or sexual orientation are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever.

It doesn't appear to cover clothing.  Perhaps with later case law there's something there, but I can't really see how.

However, CA is one of the "shopping mall free speech" states, so there may well be a cause of action based upon that.


^^^THIS^^^

I am not a lawyer yet (3rd year of law school) but SCOTUS has been pretty clear that states, like California, can include privately owned places that are open to the general public, namely shopping malls, concert venues, and the like, when drafting statutes regarding free speech.

California has such a statute and the mall it would appear by the facts presented pretty well ran right over it with a bulldozer.

In many states, as long as the person or persons is not impeding commerce, or violating community standards of decency, then they can dress and say what they please in any place open to the general public. If they were inside a store and the store owner asked them to leave thats one thing, but it seems from the facts presented that they were not asked to leave from any specific commercial establishment or refused service for their dress. They were in the public area of the mall where free speech is explicitly protected.

Hope these guys hired good legal counsel because it looks like they're going to need it.
 
2014-02-20 02:50:23 PM  

TerminalEchoes: Cheron: TerminalEchoes: So malls (private property) have the right to refuse service to anyone they wish as long as it's not a protected class (steam punk). Meanwhile, wedding cake makers (private property) are forced by the courts to give service to another non-protected class (two gay people).

Interesting.

1/10  You get one point for brevity

Just because I'm not afraid to call out bullshiat hypocrisy doesn't make me a troll, son.


Quite true. It's the other way around.
 
2014-02-20 02:52:53 PM  

Theaetetus: The Civil Rights Act, including its section on anti-discrimination in public accommodations, is 50 years old. How have you never heard of it until now?

MemeSlave: That doesn't mean it's not stupid.   It just has the veneer of tradition.


Well, okay, other than the fact that you want to bring back legal segregation, what do you think is stupid about anti-discrimination laws? In particular, just so we can figure out whether you're racist, sexist, or some other kind of bigot, who do you want the freedom to be able to discriminate against?
 
2014-02-20 03:03:23 PM  

Nix Nightbird: stuff...



Hey look!  An honest  goth god "I was gothing before gothing was cool" statement.  What we have here folks is a Gothic Hipster...sensitive but badass in his Doc Martens combat boots.

Aren't you a little old to be so butthurt about what you believe to be or not to be a goth?  I mean I was an alt kid (skater I guess?) and all, but...let it go man...
 
2014-02-20 03:16:58 PM  

zimbomba63: When dealing with a Goth, I made a habit of not acting shocked, outraged or even curious about their lifestyle.  You could see the disappointment in their eyes.


Oh, my goth, Becky... Look at her corset.
It is so narrow. [scoff] She looks like,
one of those vamp guy's girlfriends.
But, you know, who understands those rap guys? *scoff*
They only talk to her, because,
she looks like a Victorian prostitute, 'kay?
I mean, her waist, is just so tiny.
I can't believe it's just so round, it's like,
in there, I mean - gross. Look!
She's just so ... pale!

I like goth punk and I can not lie
You other brothers can't deny
That when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waist
And no flesh tones in her face
You get sprung, wanna pull out your tough
'Cause you notice that gut was stuffed
Deep in the stays she's wearing
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring
Oh baby, I wanna get with you
And get your daguerreotype
My homeboys tried to warn me
But that leather you got makes me so horny
Ooh, Rump-o'-smooth-skin
You say you wanna listen to the Cure?
Well, use me, use me
'Cause you ain't that average groupie
I've seen them dancin'
To hell with romancin'
She's a star, rawr,
Got it goin' like Cugnot's steam car
I'm tired of broadsheets
Sayin' pastels are the thing
Take the average black outfit, put her in that,
And I'll come back
So, fellas! (Yeah!) Fellas! (Yeah!)
Has your girlfriend got the corset? (Hell yeah!)
Tell 'em to shake it! (Shake it!) Shake it! (Shake it!)
Then pass out from lack of air!
Bring that goth back!
 
2014-02-20 03:17:10 PM  

OgreMagi: My steampunk hat would have given the fat mall cops an aneurysm.

[www.headnhome.com image 850x755]


What's the gear for?  If it's used to tighten the hat then cool.
 
2014-02-20 03:19:16 PM  

TNel: OgreMagi: My steampunk hat would have given the fat mall cops an aneurysm.

[www.headnhome.com image 850x755]

What's the gear for?  If it's used to tighten the hat then cool.


It's an intentional poke at the joke "just glue a gear to it".
 
2014-02-20 03:19:18 PM  

TNel: OgreMagi: My steampunk hat would have given the fat mall cops an aneurysm.

[www.headnhome.com image 850x755]

What's the gear for?  If it's used to tighten the hat then cool.


I'm amused by the fact that the chain on the pocket watch is too short for him to be able to look at the watch while wearing the hat.
 
2014-02-20 03:30:17 PM  

2KanZam: Nix Nightbird: stuff...


Hey look!  An honest  goth god "I was gothing before gothing was cool" statement.  What we have here folks is a Gothic Hipster...sensitive but badass in his Doc Martens combat boots.

Aren't you a little old to be so butthurt about what you believe to be or not to be a goth?  I mean I was an alt kid (skater I guess?) and all, but...let it go man...


I have to agree, all this "Goth is dead by the XX (timeframe)" is bullshait. Especially with Nightbird claiming that he/she "have to call ourselves old school goth or postpunk" to differentiate themselves from the "not Goth" crowd of XX and beyond (timeframe). Postpunk is a crap term made up by a magazine writer in the late 70s who didn't know what the hell music he was listening to with some Punk bands doing a darker style, even when the term "Gothic" was used by Tony Curtis (Joy Division producer, owner of Factory Records) in an interview with the BBC in 1979 to describe the style of Joy Division. Now "Post Punk" is used by Hipsters who don't like putting the Gothic label on Goth bands. I don't know if your new love is Hipster or not, Nightbird, but that was one hell of a stupid encompassing post.
 
2014-02-20 03:32:37 PM  

Theaetetus: I'm amused by the fact that the chain on the pocket watch is too short for him to be able to look at the watch while wearing the hat.


LOL didn't even notice that.

OgreMagi: It's an intentional poke at the joke "just glue a gear to it".


That's were I was going with it also.
 
2014-02-20 03:33:54 PM  

Nix Nightbird: Sigh. Let me explain something to you...


You couldn't possibly have been all that intellectual if your plan for being left alone was to differentiate yourself from the herd.  Then again the acts of violence as retaliation for insults that you reported show exactly how enlightened you were.
 
2014-02-20 03:49:38 PM  

Nix Nightbird: Sigh. Let me explain something to you...


LOL you do know they made a Southpark episode just for people like you right?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1312845/

I'm different.
 
2014-02-20 03:56:55 PM  

scottydoesntknow: TerminalEchoes: The fact that a judge even intervened makes all the difference in the world. Future fines, though undeclared, were threatened. Look, I understand how passionate people get about certain issues. Gay rights is one of those issues people fiercely defend and that's fine. I happen to defend personal freedom. I have no problem with gays at all, but I do have a problem with government walking all over people. Thus far, gays are not yet a federally protected class. One day I'm sure they will be, but right now, if a business wants to refuse service to gays, they should be allowed to do so, just like a gay business should be allowed to refuse service to straight people.

My problem isn't with gay people. My problems is with hypocrisy. "It's okay for us to do it to these people but not those people." It should be an all-or-nothing thing to me.

Let's take a trip in our time machine to the 1960s and look at that post again.

The fact that a judge even intervened makes all the difference in the world. Future fines, though undeclared, were threatened. Look, I understand how passionate people get about certain issues. Gay African American rights is one of those issues people fiercely defend and that's fine. I happen to defend personal freedom. I have no problem with gays black people at all, but I do have a problem with government walking all over people. Thus far, gays black people are not yet a federally protected class. One day I'm sure they will be, but right now, if a business wants to refuse service to gays black people, they should be allowed to do so, just like a gay an African American business should be allowed to refuse service to straight white people.

My problem isn't with gay black people. My problems is with hypocrisy. "It's okay for us to do it to these people but not those people." It should be an all-or-nothing thing to me.

See how stupid that sounds now?


You are trying to compare 1) A federally protected class to a non-federally protected class, and 2) 1960s values to 21st century values. Do you even logic?
 
2014-02-20 04:02:52 PM  

zimbomba63: trappedspirit: On the way to or from different events I have shopped at the grocery store, eaten in numerous restaurants, and otherwise interacted normally with people.

You cannot wear steamedpunk costumes and interact normally with anyone.

Sure you can.  When dealing with a Goth, I made a habit of not acting shocked, outraged or even curious about their lifestyle.  You could see the disappointment in their eyes.  Treating them as one of the "mundanes" is actually kind of cruel, when you get down to it, but, when you're out attention whoring, you have to realize you don't have an absolute right to receive that attention.


You can interact normally with them, but if they have on steamspunk costumes then they have already opened an abnormal interaction channel.

/ 63 and a "Different strokes for different folks" type
// These people should not have been kicked out of the mall
/// But, since they were, they now feel validated
//// "What does not ignore them, makes them stronger"


So you are saying it's a win-win?  They get the validation, the rest of the mall patrons don't have to look at them?  LOL, I agree.

/yeah, yeah
 
2014-02-20 04:03:13 PM  

Nix Nightbird: Sigh. Let me explain something to you...

Those people in the whiteface with ridiculous harlequin makeup and clothes they bought at a specialty shop?  They're not goths.  They're something else. They may call themselves "goth" and you may think they're goth, but they're not. They're vampires, most likely. Baby goths, if you must. They're mostly just emos who stole the word "goth", though.... blah blah blah

i.eatliver.com

 
2014-02-20 04:05:36 PM  

Leishu: TerminalEchoes: Cheron: TerminalEchoes: So malls (private property) have the right to refuse service to anyone they wish as long as it's not a protected class (steam punk). Meanwhile, wedding cake makers (private property) are forced by the courts to give service to another non-protected class (two gay people).

Interesting.

1/10  You get one point for brevity

Just because I'm not afraid to call out bullshiat hypocrisy doesn't make me a troll, son.

Maybe not, but your willful lack of attachment to facts in general does. If you stopped just making stuff up then maybe people wouldn't find you to be such a blithering idiot. At the very least, you could actually bother to RTFA, which you plainly have not in this case, or the other that you referenced, but then there was an entire thread of people telling you what a moron you were for failing to read the facts of the case, over and over and over, so successful troll is successful.


What exactly am I making up? As far as I can see, I'm one of the few who are actually using facts instead of arguing with emotion. You should try it some time.
 
2014-02-20 04:08:55 PM  

TerminalEchoes: You are trying to compare 1) A federally protected class to a non-federally protected class, and 2) 1960s values to 21st century values. Do you even logic?


Actually what I'm showing you is that this situation mirrors the segregation of 1960s damn near perfectly. Plenty of people also believed it should be their choice to discriminate at their business. And in the 1960s, they (African Americans) were NOT a protected class. And apparently 21st century values are still pretty close to 1960s values, at least for some people (like you).
 
2014-02-20 04:10:40 PM  
What can you really sue for? emotional damage? The right to access a shiatty mall? Why bother spending the time and money even if you are right on this?

/white people problems.
 
2014-02-20 04:20:36 PM  

TV's Vinnie: IMO, Steampunk is a joke!

If you're going to get all "Retro Fiction", then go with the early 1930's style, a la "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow".

[ww4.hdnux.com image 628x353]

It's a lot more sophisticated than gluing gears onto a top hat.


Ahh.. AKA Crimson Skies: The Movie. Holy crap did they steal almost everything out of the game for the movie... Hell, they even took the logo for the game and slapped it on the big-ass robot at the end
 
2014-02-20 04:22:02 PM  

TerminalEchoes: My problem isn't with gay people.


Yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and call BS on that.
 
2014-02-20 04:41:15 PM  

Raoul Eaton: kregh99: Steampunkers:  contact the mall ahead of time when you're a group that large.

Mall cops:  Seriously?  These people looked threatening in any way, shape, or form?  Stop taking the frustration that the police academy rejected your application out on innocent people having a bit of good, clean fun.

They should have known that if you want to go to the mall, you must look bland, shabby, or vulgar in a bland, shabby kind of way.  Absoluely nothing imaginative allowed.



Dress like the Comix Book Guy from the Simpsons!
 
2014-02-20 04:51:15 PM  

JonnyBGoode: TV's Vinnie: IMO, Steampunk is a joke!

If you're going to get all "Retro Fiction", then go with the early 1930's style, a la "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow".

[ww4.hdnux.com image 628x353]

It's a lot more sophisticated than gluing gears onto a top hat.

Subby here. While I do prefer the look of dieselpunk, steampunk style can be fun, too.  As the little girl said,

[static.gamespot.com image 288x288]

So far the mall has done nothing but dodge the issue and make statements like "if you tell us you're coming, we'd be glad to have you back." So people have to make an appointment to go to the mall now? And if wearing a cravat is my choice of attire, I'm not welcome?

Technically, this is a clear violation of California's Unruh Civil Right Act, which prohibits a business's discrimination of customers based on "Unconventional Dress".

By the way, please sign the petition to get the mall to make an apology to the group.


Thanks for the link, I hope the mall loses a lot of business over this fiasco. I think they looked rather nice, and they certainly didn't seem to be causing any sort of issue. I hope they sue, too.
 
2014-02-20 05:07:25 PM  

TerminalEchoes: scottydoesntknow: TerminalEchoes: The fact that a judge even intervened makes all the difference in the world. Future fines, though undeclared, were threatened. Look, I understand how passionate people get about certain issues. Gay rights is one of those issues people fiercely defend and that's fine. I happen to defend personal freedom. I have no problem with gays at all, but I do have a problem with government walking all over people. Thus far, gays are not yet a federally protected class. One day I'm sure they will be, but right now, if a business wants to refuse service to gays, they should be allowed to do so, just like a gay business should be allowed to refuse service to straight people.

My problem isn't with gay people. My problems is with hypocrisy. "It's okay for us to do it to these people but not those people." It should be an all-or-nothing thing to me.

Let's take a trip in our time machine to the 1960s and look at that post again.

The fact that a judge even intervened makes all the difference in the world. Future fines, though undeclared, were threatened. Look, I understand how passionate people get about certain issues. Gay African American rights is one of those issues people fiercely defend and that's fine. I happen to defend personal freedom. I have no problem with gays black people at all, but I do have a problem with government walking all over people. Thus far, gays black people are not yet a federally protected class. One day I'm sure they will be, but right now, if a business wants to refuse service to gays black people, they should be allowed to do so, just like a gay an African American business should be allowed to refuse service to straight white people.

My problem isn't with gay black people. My problems is with hypocrisy. "It's okay for us to do it to these people but not those people." It should be an all-or-nothing thing to me.

See how stupid that sounds now?

You are trying to compare 1) A federally protected class to a non-federa ...


No, you are trying to compare a Federally protected class to a State protected class without realizing that a State law must include all Federally protected classes but can also include any class not specifically excluded by Federal law.  Gay is not specifically included nor excluded so a state can include them for state protection at will.  If your state wanted to protect bigamists or only some religions, then it would be unconstitutional.

\I'm the third member of the bar to try and explain this to you in this thread.  You might want to defer to the experts.
 
2014-02-20 05:07:54 PM  
From a glance at that pic, there denial had nothing to do with their clothes.  I do believe there is a weight limit for escalators which may have had some influence on this occurrence.
 
2014-02-20 05:09:38 PM  

TerminalEchoes: Leishu: TerminalEchoes: Cheron: TerminalEchoes: So malls (private property) have the right to refuse service to anyone they wish as long as it's not a protected class (steam punk). Meanwhile, wedding cake makers (private property) are forced by the courts to give service to another non-protected class (two gay people).

Interesting.

1/10  You get one point for brevity

Just because I'm not afraid to call out bullshiat hypocrisy doesn't make me a troll, son.

Maybe not, but your willful lack of attachment to facts in general does. If you stopped just making stuff up then maybe people wouldn't find you to be such a blithering idiot. At the very least, you could actually bother to RTFA, which you plainly have not in this case, or the other that you referenced, but then there was an entire thread of people telling you what a moron you were for failing to read the facts of the case, over and over and over, so successful troll is successful.

What exactly am I making up? As far as I can see, I'm one of the few who are actually using facts instead of arguing with emotion. You should try it some time.


You see it that way because you are willfully ignoring the facts. It's easy to pretend that your opinion fits reality when you are making up your "reality" as you go. Once again, you have actually yet to present a single situation which is not the OPPOSITE of the facts.
 
2014-02-20 05:11:46 PM  
So malls dont want people in there that are causing no problems and spending money. They just want obnoxious teens and mall walkers. Sounds like a hell of a business plan.
 
2014-02-20 05:29:19 PM  

TNel: Yeah I'm sure there are other people waiting in line for that minimum wage position. I mean look at those cool hats you get to wear.


Yeah, but you also get to follow around young, nubile girls in their tight low-rise jeans, their sweet buttcheeks twitching and rolling as they strut between the "Food" Court and Hot Topic.
 
2014-02-20 05:39:42 PM  
Look, if these emo punks would stop shoving their retro-goth style in everybody's faces they could rejoin the rest of society. What a bunch of mod beatnik hipsters.
 
2014-02-20 05:49:50 PM  
They kicked attention-whores out for attention-whoring? Imagine that.
 
2014-02-20 05:55:34 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: Look, if these emo punks would stop shoving their retro-goth style in everybody's faces they could rejoin the rest of society. What a bunch of mod beatnik hipsters.


A bunch of macaroni, for sure.
 
2014-02-20 05:56:00 PM  
I don't care about steampunk one way or another, but I find it hard to understand why the mall would tell a group of people "Hey, you there, get the hell out.  You aren't causing any trouble, you aren't wearing outrageously skimpy clothing, you are spending money, and I want you to leave".

It's a really, really stupid business plan.  If I lived in the area, even though I have no ties to steampunk at all, I'd avoid that mall just because I'd assume that if the management are jerks who kick people out for random reasons, I simply don't want to do business there.
 
2014-02-20 05:59:01 PM  
Can we get back on topic?  Sheesh!

img.fark.net
 
2014-02-20 06:30:40 PM  
I used to work at the mall they were able to take pictures at. Seems pretty normal for that shiaty mall.

/glad to hear it's not Westfield anymore
// fark Westfield
///comes in threes
 
2014-02-20 06:41:26 PM  
While the group probably should have let the mall know, the mall shouldn't have had a problem with them.  Their costumes aren't that far off from normal fashion and better than the young folks with their pants hanging down around their knees and the baggy sports jerseys.
 
2014-02-20 06:47:57 PM  
Eh, Malls are private property. It isn't in the public. The rules do not discriminate against a protected class. The Mall can do this.


But Malls are evil. Don't go there.

\Used to work in a Mall. First job. Seen it first hand.
 
2014-02-20 07:17:28 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Sounds like quite a few people should read the ENTIRE article... particularly this part:

Besides, the state of California limits how you can determine who belongs on your property with the Unruh Civil Rights Act (CA Civil Code 51 and 52). In addition to the particular forms of discrimination specifically outlawed by the Act (sex, race, color, etc.), courts have held the Act "prohibit[s] discrimination based on several classifications which are not specifically enumerated in the statute. These judicially recognized classifications include unconventional dress or physical appearance, families with children, homosexuality, and persons under 18."


Yes, clearly a civil rights violation under California law, if the group ever decided to press the matter.
 
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