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(Medium)   If we never saw the night sky until tonight, would we arrive at the same conclusions about the Big Bang?   (medium.com) divider line 48
    More: Interesting, Big Bang theory, Doppler shift, physics, Earth's rotation, night sky, Particle Physics, black bodies, spectral lines  
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3375 clicks; posted to Geek » on 19 Feb 2014 at 10:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



48 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-02-19 08:23:32 PM  
"It'll have to go."
 
2014-02-19 08:32:44 PM  
Considering the ~10 stars the average metropolis dweller can see on a clear night, maybe. . .
 
2014-02-19 08:45:10 PM  
I'd think there was nothing in the universe but grey mist
 
2014-02-19 09:12:51 PM  
If we never saw it until tonight, I'd think we'd all go insane when we did.
 
2014-02-19 09:50:57 PM  
It belongs in a museum.
 
2014-02-19 10:00:08 PM  
Great find, subby!
 
2014-02-19 10:20:23 PM  
www.evangogh.org

Artist's rendition
 
2014-02-19 10:34:24 PM  

naughtyrev: If we never saw it until tonight, I'd think we'd all go insane when we did.


Yeah no one would be getting any science done for awhile as cities would burn.
 
2014-02-19 11:02:48 PM  
If my aunt had balls, would she be my uncle?
 
2014-02-19 11:07:35 PM  
I was born in Pittsburgh. I didn't even see the sun till I was 21.
 
2014-02-19 11:08:21 PM  
Yes.
 
2014-02-19 11:12:09 PM  

Confabulat: naughtyrev: If we never saw it until tonight, I'd think we'd all go insane when we did.

Yeah no one would be getting any science done for awhile as cities would burn.


Asimov, Nightfall, 1941. X Minus One from 1955 which proves that nostalgia is everything perfect about the past except how it lead to the present
 
2014-02-19 11:15:20 PM  

PC LOAD LETTER: If my aunt had balls, would she be my uncle?


I have an uncle like that, yes.
 
2014-02-19 11:20:51 PM  
Yes: The show still sucks.
 
2014-02-19 11:22:01 PM  
Done in one.
 
2014-02-19 11:42:33 PM  
Interesting idea, poorly executed.  The graphs are unreadable to someone unversed in astronomy.  Z=6 means nothing to me.

The way to teach science isn't to cram it down our throats.  Explain it, goddammit.  Explain it like you would to a six year old, because those are the people you want to reach.
 
2014-02-19 11:47:49 PM  

Ivo Shandor: "It'll have to go."


Win.  Pure win.
 
2014-02-19 11:48:23 PM  

Wasn't this covered in:

img2.imagesbn.com

?

/spoiler, the answer is no
 
2014-02-19 11:56:42 PM  
One of these days I'll have to go someplace where I can see all that shiat in the sky at night.  It must really be amazing.
 
2014-02-20 12:08:18 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: If my aunt had balls, would she be my uncle?


She'd be a monkey's uncle
 
2014-02-20 12:09:29 AM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Wasn't this covered in:?

/spoiler, the answer is no


Awesome book
 
2014-02-20 12:25:16 AM  
users.jam21.net

Remember him when you look at the night sky!
 
2014-02-20 12:25:54 AM  

debug: One of these days I'll have to go someplace where I can see all that shiat in the sky at night.  It must really be amazing.


Same here! ( live in the cloudy & often rainy part of Oregon)
 
2014-02-20 12:49:07 AM  
I dunno, if we hadn't discovered the printing press until 2004, would libraries be carved into mountains? The 'science' makes a couple of huge assumptions even before the night sky is revealed in their scenario. The ones about redshift, the moon, and the sun being 'discovered' before we've seen the night sky are particularly egregious.


/Stupid question is stupid
 
2014-02-20 01:14:47 AM  
What kept up from seeing the night's sky until tonight?  Did we live underground and NEVER went to the surface?  Was there permanent cloud cover that we didn't send rockets above decades ago?  Were there multiple suns that were never on the same side of the earth at the same time until tonight?  Could human eyes only focus less than 6 feet away before tonight, and nobody invented a camera with an infinite focal length?  Was there some kind of global religious taboo against looking up until a very persuasive prophet changed everything earlier today?

If things were ridiculously different than they are now, would something be different than it is now.  That's what your asking.  Brainsick is right, it's a stupid question.
 
2014-02-20 01:25:08 AM  

Aquapope: Was there permanent cloud cover that we didn't send rockets above decades ago?


Yes, that was the hypothesis in the article, which you'd know if you bothered toread the article rather than just rushing in to rant about how it's a stupid question, while in reality, only exposing your own willful ignorance.
 
2014-02-20 01:30:25 AM  
If we had evolved from bears, would everybody in the southern hemisphere be hibernating while everybody in the northern hemisphere was awake, plotting how to take over the south without going to sleep themselves, and how to do it within 6 months?

If our reproductive systems weren't interconnected with our urinary systems, would we have developed such farked up taboos about sex?

If Jesus had been beaten to death, would Catholics punch themselves in the head all Sunday morning?

If we could see in radio frequencies instead of visible light, would the insult "you have a face for radio" actually be a compliment?
 
2014-02-20 01:37:15 AM  

Theaetetus: Aquapope: Was there permanent cloud cover that we didn't send rockets above decades ago?

Yes, that was the hypothesis in the article, which you'd know if you bothered toread the article rather than just rushing in to rant about how it's a stupid question, while in reality, only exposing your own willful ignorance.


It's a stupid conjecture.  So we start our investigation of the heavens, for the most part, today, instead of thousands of years ago.  We know much more science so our investigation would be dramatically different.  But how different would every other aspect of our cultures be without seeing stars?  It's just that the 'what if' is too broad to be an interesting thought experiment.
 
2014-02-20 01:46:30 AM  

debug: One of these days I'll have to go someplace where I can see all that shiat in the sky at night.  It must really be amazing.


CSB: In June '93 I drove the 246 miles of I-29 south from Fargo, ND to Sioux Falls, SD on an exceptionally clear night. I had a friend with me but he was crashed by this point of the journey, foolishly thinking we had consumed the last of the speed the morning before in Saskatoon, SK, but I was young and even more the fool and had kept a little extra to get me through the straight drive to St. Louis and Lollapalooza. About an hour, maybe a little more, out into that nothing of nowhere I had to stop because the sky was so damn magnificent. I pulled well off into the ditch and laid down on the hood of the car and looked up at the splendor of the Milky Way and it was as if I was seeing for the first time. I laid there for ten, maybe twenty minutes and not a single car came by; there were no city lights in any direction, and only small farm lights in the distance; the moon was not yet up in the sky. I felt like a speck, a tiny little meaningless nothing in comparison to that awe inspiring cosmos before me. Then a semi came by going north on the other side of the interstate and I remembered I had many miles left to run and that was that. Got back in the car, my friend woke up when I turned over the ignition, so I cranked the stereo and enjoyed another harsh US smoke. I had a helluva good time that road trip and saw all kinds of crazy shiat ($4 hamburgers at McD's on a riverboat, went through the Budweiser plant gooned on acid, etcetc), but the thing I really remember twenty years later is that amazing night sky.
 
2014-02-20 01:50:27 AM  

Brainsick: The ones about redshift, the moon, and the sun being 'discovered' before we've seen the night sky are particularly egregious.


The Pound-Rebka experiment demonstrated gravitational redshift and the Doppler effect without requiring any astronomical observations or relativistic velocities. The sun is bright enough to be noticed through a thick cloud layer, and tides + eclipses might be enough to detect the moon even if it couldn't be seen directly.
 
2014-02-20 01:53:45 AM  

Aquapope: If Jesus had been beaten to death, would Catholics punch themselves in the head all Sunday morning?


I knew a guy when I was in the USAF who was a member of one of those weird little Protestant denominations, and insisted on discussing religion at work. I told him I was fine, but if he spoke openly, then I would too and he wasn't allowed to get offended.
He stopped talking religion with me after the Waco/Branch Davidian and he asked me "What if David Koresh really was the second coming?"
I told him we'd spend the next 2000 years repelling vampires with a leg of Kentucky Fried.
 
2014-02-20 01:54:20 AM  

Boojum2k: I knew a guy


And yes, CSB, I know I know
 
2014-02-20 02:07:17 AM  

Ivo Shandor: Brainsick: The ones about redshift, the moon, and the sun being 'discovered' before we've seen the night sky are particularly egregious.

The Pound-Rebka experiment demonstrated gravitational redshift and the Doppler effect without requiring any astronomical observations or relativistic velocities. The sun is bright enough to be noticed through a thick cloud layer, and tides + eclipses might be enough to detect the moon even if it couldn't be seen directly.


Dude, there are people alive right now that don't believe we actually walked on the moon. Papa bear's famous 'you can't explain that'. Dark matter has been poo-poohed by laymen and scientists alike. It's a gigantic leap to assume a dim dot of light would be 'discovered' as being 'the sun' if we couldn't see through our atmosphere. Hell, it would be just as scientifically sound to posit that the light in that scenario is a giant bulb being operated by a raver-kid deity, if you couldn't see into space. Sure, you could 'detect' the moon, but how would you know the properties of the thing being detected? This is partly why our Earth-based  science has progressed society beyong thunderbirds and sky wizards.

It's just too big of a stretch for a valid thought-experiment (IMHO), that's all.


/granted, doppler can be discovered with ears and a moving sound source, so there is that...
 
2014-02-20 02:13:20 AM  
There were infinite big bangs
Expansion and contraction that's how it rolls

Time is a measurement of relative motion
and everything is in motion in the eternal present

There was no beginning
There will be no end

Glory to Now the Highest
There are worlds without end

Amen
 
2014-02-20 04:31:58 AM  

Hiro-ACiD: debug: One of these days I'll have to go someplace where I can see all that shiat in the sky at night.  It must really be amazing.

CSB: In June '93 I drove the 246 miles of I-29 south from Fargo, ND to Sioux Falls, SD on an exceptionally clear night. I had a friend with me but he was crashed by this point of the journey, foolishly thinking we had consumed the last of the speed the morning before in Saskatoon, SK, but I was young and even more the fool and had kept a little extra to get me through the straight drive to St. Louis and Lollapalooza. About an hour, maybe a little more, out into that nothing of nowhere I had to stop because the sky was so damn magnificent. I pulled well off into the ditch and laid down on the hood of the car and looked up at the splendor of the Milky Way and it was as if I was seeing for the first time. I laid there for ten, maybe twenty minutes and not a single car came by; there were no city lights in any direction, and only small farm lights in the distance; the moon was not yet up in the sky. I felt like a speck, a tiny little meaningless nothing in comparison to that awe inspiring cosmos before me. Then a semi came by going north on the other side of the interstate and I remembered I had many miles left to run and that was that. Got back in the car, my friend woke up when I turned over the ignition, so I cranked the stereo and enjoyed another harsh US smoke. I had a helluva good time that road trip and saw all kinds of crazy shiat ($4 hamburgers at McD's on a riverboat, went through the Budweiser plant gooned on acid, etcetc), but the thing I really remember twenty years later is that amazing night sky.


Had a night like that just a few months ago driving back from Grand Forks, ND to Roseau, MN. It was around 3 a.m. and I noticed that the northern lights were out. Pulled over the car on a side road and we laid out on the hood and watched the lights dance from on end of the sky to the next. It was amazing.
 
2014-02-20 07:11:20 AM  
Why wouldn't it? Assuming we've never seen the night sky until tonight, as long as we know the same thing we already know about the redshift effect, we would have to come to the same exact conclusions as we did before - that everything is accelerating away from everything else, which means that at some previous point, everything was at essentially the same point in space.
 
2014-02-20 07:30:26 AM  

naughtyrev: If we never saw it until tonight, I'd think we'd all go insane when we did.


I'm going to just assume you're referring to this:

www.fantasyillustrated.net

// Actually took longer than I thought to find the image for the actual story and not the shiatty-assed Silverberg novel based off of it.
 
2014-02-20 08:29:49 AM  

Ivo Shandor: "It'll have to go."


Over in one and pleased as punch that I got the joke right away.
 
2014-02-20 08:42:26 AM  
my CSB:
I've been firmly in the city for a decade or so, but I've always loved being a starhustler, you just can't do it much here.  So last summer when my girlfriend took me to visit a friend an hour north in to the farmland, I stopped on the way home to look up.
Absolute disorientation. I couldn't even find the big dipper or orion anymore because there were just too many damn stars. It was chilly so my lady went back in to the car while I tried not to cry.
 
2014-02-20 09:39:54 AM  
It'd take a few years to work out that the planets in our system exist, orbit our sun(and yeah, we might not be heliocentricists without that information).   Applying Doppler shift to stars would be natural given we have Doppler radar already.  We'd come to similar conclusions pretty quick.  Might take a decade or two, but the relevant mysteries would all point in the same direction.
 
2014-02-20 10:20:30 AM  

Ivo Shandor: "It'll have to go."


Oh great, now Europeans are going to have to watch out for white robots asking about ashes and causing a ruckus.

/If you hear the sound of 1000 people saying "whap" at the same time, you know what is coming next.
 
2014-02-20 12:04:41 PM  

Ivo Shandor: "It'll have to go."


Thank goodness you were here.
 
2014-02-20 12:11:13 PM  

Jim_Callahan: naughtyrev: If we never saw it until tonight, I'd think we'd all go insane when we did.

I'm going to just assume you're referring to this:



// Actually took longer than I thought to find the image for the actual story and not the shiatty-assed Silverberg novel based off of it.


What ever you do don't watch the movie they made in the 80's.
 
2014-02-20 12:18:46 PM  

mcreadyblue: What ever you do don't watch the movie they made in the 80's.


How about the straight-to-video version from 2000?
 
2014-02-20 12:29:45 PM  

Ivo Shandor: mcreadyblue: What ever you do don't watch the movie they made in the 80's.

How about the straight-to-video version from 2000?


David Carradine?

I hope this is on Netflix!
 
2014-02-20 03:11:05 PM  
Bazinga?
 
2014-02-20 04:31:07 PM  
Late to the thread but some neat info for anyone still lurking.

1990s, there was a massive blackout in LA and the true night sky was able to be seen.  A number of residence actually called the police as they were afraid of mysterious glowing clouds hovering over the city.

See vsauce video on Brightest things in the universe, at about the 10:30 mark.
 
2014-02-21 08:13:00 AM  

ThatGuyOverThere: my CSB:
I've been firmly in the city for a decade or so, but I've always loved being a starhustler, you just can't do it much here.  So last summer when my girlfriend took me to visit a friend an hour north in to the farmland, I stopped on the way home to look up.
Absolute disorientation. I couldn't even find the big dipper or orion anymore because there were just too many damn stars. It was chilly so my lady went back in to the car while I tried not to cry.


I had a similar experience.  Where I live in MI there is plenty of light pollution, but when I was a teen I used to stargaze w/ my cheap telescope, and I had a solar filter and used to track sunspots over a summer vacation in high school.

so in 99 we went to vail w/ the family to do the millenial thing, and we stopped on some back road between mountains, or at least very large hills.  And I looked up and was absolutely stunned.  I'll never forget that feeling of awe.  I too, couldn't recognize a damn thing.  Times like that I'm a bit jealous of what it was like before all this technology and light pollution.  And I could see how generations of people from ages ago could come up with fantastic tales explaining those stars and their formations.
 
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