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(International Business Times)   Ukraine? Nope. Mykraine   ( ibtimes.co.uk) divider line
    More: Scary, Ukraine, President Yanukovich, Lviv, Kyiv, protest camp, civil wars, independence  
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8006 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Feb 2014 at 3:13 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2014-02-19 03:28:31 PM  
5 votes:
A little perspective.  Yanukovich's total forces consist of:

- 3000 or so berkut soldiers
- a few divisions of NVC (ministry of the interior troops). not all of which will be particularly loyal
- maybe a few police forces in various towns

and that's it.  the actual military is constitutionally forbidden from taking part in internal disputes (including civil wars) and this is something that is taken very seriously by them.  there is essentially zero chance they will join any conflict.

the idea that yannick could just 'crush' the protesters easily heavily overstates his actual mechanisms of power.

additionally, please don't think that yannick loves putin.  in fact, he hates him.  however, yannick is between a rock and a hard place now and his 'street criminal' background is essentially guiding him by instinct to stay in power as he can.

i've beeen deeply involved with this situation since its onset.  it may not end well, but i kind of think it will.  unfortnately, i think the likely outcome will be the one that the protesters are now banging for but that they havent through through enough. they SHOULD be for international impartial organization of the 2015 pres elections, including insuring ballot access, ballot box access, and media control in the period leading up to it.  instead they are now on about early elections or, even worse, constitutional change.  The latter especially shows the immaturity of the protesters (mind you, i support them wholeheartedly) as they are trying to play politics with the constitution, which weakens their legitimacy.  sure, the bad guys did it too, but that's why they are the bad guys.
2014-02-19 02:40:23 PM  
4 votes:
This land is Ukraine,
this land is Mykraine
From Zakarpattia,
To the Luhansk Oblast
From Chernobyl,
to the Black Sea waters,
This Kraine was made for U and Me.
2014-02-19 04:38:09 PM  
3 votes:

rockradio1: If this is even remotely successful in the Ukraine, look for Belarus to erupt and Minsk to become a battleground that's far worse.

If Ukrainians thought they had it bad -- take a look at the near dictatorship and staunch Communist hold-outs ruling with an iron fist in Belarus.


Yeah, except that while Ukraine is heavily split between pro-Ukrainian/Western and pro-Russian/Eastern halves, pretty much all of Belarus (at least the people who haven't already emigrated to the west) is fanatically pro-Russian, perhaps even more so than Russians themselves. If anything, they would probably love the idea of becoming part of Russia again.

FUN FACT 1: 1991 post-USSR breakup was the first time in history than Belarus has been an independent country.
FUN FACT 2: Only about 10-30% of Belarusians even use Belarusian language as their primary tongue. The rest mostly just speak Russian.
2014-02-20 02:12:03 AM  
2 votes:
the_vegetarian_cannibal:
FUN FACT 1: 1991 post-USSR breakup was the first time in history than Belarus has been an independent country.
FUN FACT 2: Only about 10-30% of Belarusians even use Belarusian language as their primary tongue. The rest mostly just speak Russian.

What about the Irish?  Tell me about their burning desire to be English.     Did putin pay you to write the above nonsense?

Time to repost this:


On various Internet forums, you may find a small but zealous group of posters who deliberately spread misinformation about the crisis in Ukraine's "Maidans" (city squares). Whether they do this because they are directly or indirectly on the Kremlin payroll (as posters and bloggers from elsewhere have been found to be) or whether they act out of genuine misguided conviction is difficult to say.
Whatever their motivation, however, they share a similar goal: to cloud the issue and to sidetrack discussion. Often, they do this by simply repeating the same long-debunked claims and ignoring informed and logical rebuttals. The goal of such propagandists and "true believers" is not to win over intelligent people, but rather to sow seeds of confusion and doubt into who have only a passing familiarity with the events.  False equivocation, word tricks, playing off a general lack of knowledge about the region and its history, and outright lies are their tools.   Your antidote is good information, which I hope to provide below.
The following list addresses the most common misconceptions about the situation in Ukraine. Often, these misconceptions are actively pushed by putinists, despite their knowing very well that they are lies. Thank you for giving it a read-through.  I apologize in advance for its length.

1. Myth: Terms like "Russian", "Russian-speaking", "Russian ethnicity", and "pro-Russia" are the same and can be used interchangeably. Reality: they are very different and understanding the nuance matters. Putinist propagandists regularly purposefully conflate such terms to give the impression of support where none exists. Russsian-speaking Ukrainians in general no more want to join Russia politically than English-speaking Irish in Dublin want to become English.  Two decades of independent polling data conclusively shows that the citizens of Ukraine, regardless of whether they speak Russian or Ukrainian as their first language, solidly view themselves politically as Ukrainian and Ukrainian only. The "let's join Russia" fringe political party in Ukraine got zero seats in the last parliament.
Furthermore, only a relatively small percentage of Russian speakers in Ukraine are actually ethnically Russian. The majority is ethnically Ukrainian (or mixed). Just like the majority of English speakers in Scotland are ethnically Scottish.   Of course the rights of any ethnic or linguistic minority should be considered and protected.  Polling data show that in general, ethnic Russians (and others, such as Crimean Tartars and those who culturally self-identify primarily as Jewish) enjoy protections, a feeling of inclusiveness, and security in Ukraine consistent with that in most democratic European countries.  Contrast this with the situation in Russia, where one need not look hard to find videos of, say, Russian citizens of Central Asian origin being beaten up by ultra-nationalist groups for having the temerity to ride the Moscow metro.
The ultimate brazen act of linguistic gymnastic nonsense by the pro-Putin camp goes something like this:  it starts with "many people in Ukraine speak Russian" and through deliberately vague intermingling of terms ends with nonsensical conclusions such as  "therefore, the majority are pro-Russia" or even "the majority want to join Russia."   Substitute in place of "Russia/Russian" the language/parent country the situation of any other country also with a language legacy based on a brutal colonial status to see just how ludicrously unsound that line of argumentation is.   Even in countries with a (relatively) benign colonial history, such as English-speaking India, there is zero call for restoration of their colonial or subservient status to Great Britain.
2. Myth: "Ukraine is a cleft (divided) country." Reality: This is something your political science professor may have told you based on shallow scholarship from 20 or more years ago when the west was just starting to understand the former Soviet states.  While there are some east-west divisions in Ukraine, they are far less than "want to sound smart" commentators make them out to be. For example, age is a more reliable predictor of political proclivities in Ukraine that geography is (just as it is in the USA, by the way.) Few if any serious people in either Ukraine or the USA talk seriously of splitting the country (we all joke about it of course) based on voting patterns, even though the "coasts vs center and south" voting patterns in US presidential elections are well known.
3. Myth: "Maidan protesters are Fascist." Reality: No maidan protesters are legitimately "fascist" by any real definition of the term. Russian news media have been pushing the meme that the protesters are "fascist" based on a deep and willful misreading of history and a willingness to characterize right-wing nationalist groups (such as the small but loud political party "Svoboda") as "fascist" even though pretty much all groups at maidan have a basic aim of a government that resembles those of modern liberal democracies in Europe.   It stands to note that such right wing groups make up a small percentage of the total number of maidan supporters, but Russian media focuses exclusively on them and especially their most fringe members.   Videos of maidan protests produced by, for example, RT dot com, the Kremlin's western-facing propaganda arm, are heavily distorted and those produced for Russian internal consumption are even worse.
The claim that the maidan is "fascist" is particularly ludicrous as it comes from Putin's camp, when Russia (along with Belarus) with its cult of personality, invented enemies, state control of media, state-sponsored right-wing intimidation groups (Nashi), and indistinguishability of government and corporate (Gazprom) interests, while not fascist, are certainly as proto-fascist as you will find in Europe today.
It is true that during World War II, independence-minded western Ukrainian nationalist groups, desperate to throw off the yoke of a Soviet Russian imperialism that had caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians in the 1930s, took arms from the one group that was willing to give them--Nazi Germany. They agonized over the decision to do so, just as Irish freedom fighters did in accepting weapons a generation earlier and the appropriateness of that decision can be legitimately debated today. However, even if we were to fully believe the full package of lies and mischaracterizations about the anti-Soviet nationalists of the WW2 era as true, this would not somehow magically translate into "right wing Ukrainian groups of today are fascist." It just doesn't and they just aren't (and weren't then, either, for that matter, but that's a topic for a different day). Rather, such groups are (as they were) characterized by wanting Ukrainian national (not ethnic) self-determination.   Right wing groups are present in nearly all countries of the world.  But in Ukraine as elsewhere, these groups represent a small fraction of maidan protesters.
To many of us living in the west, "nationalism" seems like a remnant of a previous century and as such most forward thinking people, like your author, have little sympathy for regressive nationalist mindsets in general. Remember, though, that most of us can afford to do so because we live in countries whose basic right to self-determination are not regularly undermined by imperialist neighbors. Or, to put it another way, could the maidan protesters *really* be "fascist" if part of their goal is to join an ecumenical EU? The "fascist" meme is utter nonsense.
4. Myth: "Ukraine's economy is uniquely tied to Russia's". Reality: While of course Russia is an important trading partner for Ukraine, as a percentage of GDP, Ukraine both imports to and exports from the EU considerably more than it does to/from Russia. Ukraine's economy right now is more tied to the EU than it is to Russia.
5. Myth: "Ukraine is culturally tied to Russia." Reality: Ukraine is a large country and has a very distinct national identity from Russia. Sure, it's possible to choose isolated pockets here and there if trying to push some limited political point (for example, the majority of residents in San Antonio, Texas are Hispanic--I don't hear any clamor for it to join Mexico either from those residents, from Mexico, or from other Americans). The Ukrainian language is at least distinct from Russian as Dutch is from German (and actually quite a bit more - a Russian language speaker would be largely incapable of understanding pure spoken Ukrainian). The alphabets are similar but different. Ukraine has long-standing and unique literary, cultural, gastronomic, religious, and other traditions-as different as Polish and Russian are, for example.  Ukrainian and Russian cultures share some common roots from antiquity but so do, for example, China and Korea. Certainly Ukrainian and Russian culture vary considerably more than, for example, Austrian and German cultures do.
However, putting that aside for a moment, who among us but a few right-wing dead-enders still believe that cultural identity should be the deciding factor of a nation's fate? Should South Koreans suddenly enter into a freedom-destroying accord with the DPRK simply because of a shared culture? Should the Dutch have joined with Nazi Germany based on rough similarities in language or the Belgians because of a common affinity for beer? As it were, there is one country that for a variety of historical reasons is also very closely tied culturally, religiously, and historically to Russia. That country is Serbia.  Despite any such "cultural" ties it may have had with Russia or position as de facto Russian client state, Serbia is on course to very soon embrace EU membership in its entirety.
6. Myth: "they voted for this guy, so they get what they deserve." Reality: Yanukovich's presidential election, while not without some significant problems, was mostly fair on the day. However, the subsequent Verkhovna Rada (parliamentary) elections were not. The parliamentary elections were MASSIVELY rigged both directly and through candidate suppression and media control and were widely condemned by independent external observers. Without that rigged parliamentary election, Yanukovich could not have done what he did, which was to make a 180 degree U-Turn from his campaign promises and move towards a customs union with Russia rather than closer ties with the EU. Therefore, the claim that the current regime's actions are that of a legitimately elected government and so the populace should just grin and bear it don't hold water.
7. Myth: "Maidan is about Ukraine's European aspirations." Reality: It started as such, but that was just the kindling. The main issue is really corruption. Yanukovich's government is notoriously corrupt. Yes, the country has fallen lower and lower in Corruption Perceptions Index rankings since he came to power but even beyond that corruption and cronyism have reached proportions not fully captured by the CPI rankings. Under the Yanukovich regime, and especially since the highly problematic previous parliamentary elections, businesses have been expropriated and competition marginalized. For example, if you go to Ukraine's market-dominating home improvement chain, (owned by a Yanukovich-allied oligarch), you will find prices up to three times that of the US and even neighboring Poland for poor quality Chinese and local goods. Ditto supermarkets. Ditto everywhere else. Corruption has stifled the free market and it has stifled and boxed in Ukrainians. That the police and judges are over-the-top corrupt doesn't help. To be fair, the corruption started before Yanukovich, but it has reached a crescendo under him, and this is what it's about, especially as things seem to be getting worse before they get better.
8. Myth: "Ukrainians will flood Europe and take European jobs/resources." Reality: Nobody but nobody is talking about Schengen membership for Ukraine in the near future. This is a myth invented by pro-Russian provocateurs to scare off European support and cloud the issue. Even full EU membership is still very far away for Ukraine even in the best case. If and when Ukraine finally will join the EU to say nothing of Schengen, it will need to have passed through extremely stringent milestones now that the EU knows, based on the experiences of Greece and others, what happens when they rush too quickly to accept new members.
Ordinary Ukrainians are NOT looking for handouts and are prepared for several years of hardship and work to build the country up to where it could in the future meet such requirements. They feel, however, that as the situation now stands, that due to endemic corruption, anything they try to build now under the current corrupt system would be in vain, as indeed it largely would be.
9. Myth: This is about jailed leader Yulia Tymoshenko (the woman with the braided hair). Reality: Tymoshenko is mostly irrelevant to the maidan. Few other than the small number of her political party die-hards tie her situation to these protests. Most Ukrainians recognize her to be an irrelevant opportunist and basically a dishonest person whose personal vanities were responsible for many of the problems of the Yuschenko administration. While she's not a crook on the scale of Yanukovich's cronies and probably doesn't deserve to be in prison for the crimes for which she was actually convicted for, in general, her hands are not clean and Ukrainians in general want to put her in the past.
10. Myth: "It's all a CIA/EU conspiracy". Reality: Hopefully to you such claims are self evidently ridiculous, but this is the kind of nonsense that quite a few people in Russia actually think thanks to ubiquity of Kremlin controlled media. To wit, Vitaly Milonov, a Russian lawmaker in St Petersburg is protesting at the US consulate against "US meddling" in the situation in Ukraine. The fact that Russia is widely acknowledged to have engaged in the direct buying of support of certain ethically-challenged Ukrainian lawmakers doesn't seem to have agitated whatever cell of his body is responsible for detecting hypocrisy. The US has provided a bit of moral support to Ukrainian protesters and a few private citizen ethnic Ukrainians with US passports may have played a relatively small role in providing material support to the protesters, but that's about it. The EU has done even less, probably because of their fear of disrupting their energy flows from Russia (though Austria, to its credit, is making some noises about looking into the ill-gotten-gains of some Ukrainian lawmakers.
The reality is that the maidan protests are largely self-financed and entirely self-motivated. Putinist "open ended" questions like "where are the protesters getting their sandwiches and hot soup from?" are actually self-defeating: behind every 22-year old protester with the physical strength to stand on Maidan in the face of the government intimidation squads are families and co-workers sending food and clothes as part of their common, national struggle against corruption.
Freedom isn't free. The maidan protesters are valiantly struggling in extremely difficult conditions against oppression, corruption, and misinformation. Thank you for your time in reading this.
2014-02-19 09:31:31 PM  
2 votes:

tinfoil-hat maggie: [www.interpretermag.com image 620x382]
Picture of "peaceful protesters" with antitank guns in Lviv.


img.fark.net

85 mm divisional gun D-44

upload.wikimedia.org
It took me a while to find it. These guns were produced between 1945-1953. I doubt that they are used anywhere today, these type of guns were replaced by self-propelled guns a long ago. Maybe similar towed guns are used in Best Korea?

I guess they were towed there form a military museum. Even if you have the proper ammunition, they are not easy to fire. They have the stopping power of scrape metal of similar weight.
2014-02-19 04:08:24 PM  
2 votes:
Obviously Russia wants Ukraine. By taking it he can stop the EU from controlling all of Europe and collecting 5 extra armies per turn.
2014-02-19 04:08:03 PM  
2 votes:
HotWingConspiracy: Bomb Head Mohammed: and that's it.  the actual military is constitutionally forbidden from taking part in internal disputes (including civil wars) and this is something that is taken very seriously by them.  there is essentially zero chance they will join any conflict.

I read just read that Yabukovych sacked the commander in chief and installed a new one...do you think it's possible a yes man might be game to shiat on the constitution?

This is the fear.  I suspect the army guy who got sacked told Yannick flat out something to the effect that he didn't care much for either the protesters or the government but that his duty was to the constitution.  However, I don't think just sacking one chief will change the fundamental fact that every officer has the same "we only deal with external threats" philosophy drilled into them and as a basic part of their oath.   It's not like a small thing to them - this "external threats only" is really a core part of their oath that they as military people take very seriously.

The bigger question is why yannick has fired his top military guy at a time like this.  Basically it comes down to he did the same sort of math that I outlined in my previous post and this is the first time he personally really encountered the military mindset that he was only peripherally aware of.

At least, that's my hope in what the situation is.  My confidence level in my particular interpretation here is only around 70%.
2014-02-19 04:03:41 PM  
2 votes:
I wonder how the eu will react to this. On the one hand, they want pro western government, on the other, supporting a group that ha effectively broken away from the central government might come back to haunt them in pleases like Catalonia
2014-02-19 03:55:34 PM  
2 votes:

rockradio1: If this is even remotely successful in the Ukraine, look for Belarus to erupt and Minsk to become a battleground that's far worse.

If Ukrainians thought they had it bad -- take a look at the near dictatorship and staunch Communist hold-outs ruling with an iron fist in Belarus.


CSB:

My SO is getting her PhD and one of her classmates is from Belarus.  I usually like to ask international grad/undergrad students if they want to return to their home country when they are done studying.

"Hey Constantine, do you want to go back to Belarus after graduation?"

And with a stone face that would make Mt Rushmore look soft, he replied without skipping a beat

"No."

/Then began an hour discussion about the government of Belarus
//Don't blame him
2014-02-19 03:46:40 PM  
2 votes:
If this is even remotely successful in the Ukraine, look for Belarus to erupt and Minsk to become a battleground that's far worse.

If Ukrainians thought they had it bad -- take a look at the near dictatorship and staunch Communist hold-outs ruling with an iron fist in Belarus.
2014-02-19 03:36:37 PM  
2 votes:

DamnYankees: MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?

That would be quite the bold move, as its not his country.


Didn't stop him before.
2014-02-19 03:36:27 PM  
2 votes:
img.fark.net
2014-02-19 02:25:03 PM  
2 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?


That would be hugely stupid. It's much better to find out which side favors trade agreements with Russia and then arm those people. See: Syria.
2014-02-19 02:20:55 PM  
2 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?


That would be quite the bold move, as its not his country.
2014-02-19 02:18:05 PM  
2 votes:
What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?
2014-02-20 08:00:02 AM  
1 vote:
2014-02-20 07:10:06 AM  
1 vote:
Kiev mayor resigns publicly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyFTO2gDoQA
2014-02-20 02:55:41 AM  
1 vote:
Christopher Miller's Maidan Tweets are coming in a every few minutes:

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM
2014-02-20 02:08:06 AM  
1 vote:
Yea, they don't seem to mind advancing right through that nasty smoke.

also, Looks like a protestor was carried over to the medical tent -shirt pulled up and limbs flopping around like he was shot.
2014-02-20 02:07:02 AM  
1 vote:
Did...did the protestors just jump the berkut's shield line? 0_o
2014-02-20 02:05:48 AM  
1 vote:
Wow, that's a lot of smoke on the barricades.
2014-02-20 12:36:22 AM  
1 vote:
There is no way this can end well.
2014-02-19 11:37:04 PM  
1 vote:

flexflint: The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: danzak: flexflint: danzak: It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that for a while now; is it possible that Putin wants the South/South-East to run his pipelines through, and that he doesn't really mind about the West?

The EU put a stop on a South Stream line that would bypass Ukraine.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/122374

USA gas exports must be cutting into Russia's energy dominance in Europe.

I'd really like to be a fly on the wall in one of those European meetings that must be going on now, energy surely plays an enormous part in what's going on right now.

Also, from BBC:

" [...] a split between eastern Ukraine and western Ukraine is being openly discussed, even though few people say they want that. It would allow those in the east to remain close to Russia and it would allow Russia to take Crimea back under its wing, which is hugely important to it historically and strategically.

But a clean split without further bloodshed is not that likely. It's unclear where any border would be. So there are strong reasons for avoiding a split as it may lead to civil war.
The parliamentary opposition and the government will at some point need to negotiate a settlement if war is to be avoided, but opposition leaders Vitaly Klitschko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk know that if they make too many concessions, that would be seen by hardline protestors as betrayal.

This is a like violent game of chess, and nobody can see enough moves ahead to know what the outcome will be."

Wait and see.


That's quite depressing all around.  Although nobody really wants a split, I suppose a Czechoslovakia type split would be preferable to bloodshed (not to mention it would be a raw deal for Ethnic Ukrainians since Stalin is the one who transplanted Ethnic Russians in the East and South).  Russia has time and again shown how much Ukrainian blood they are willing to spill for their own selfish gains for things like a warm water port :(
2014-02-19 11:14:52 PM  
1 vote:

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: danzak: flexflint: danzak: It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that for a while now; is it possible that Putin wants the South/South-East to run his pipelines through, and that he doesn't really mind about the West?

The EU put a stop on a South Stream line that would bypass Ukraine.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/122374

USA gas exports must be cutting into Russia's energy dominance in Europe.


I'd really like to be a fly on the wall in one of those European meetings that must be going on now, energy surely plays an enormous part in what's going on right now.

Also, from BBC:

" [...] a split between eastern Ukraine and western Ukraine is being openly discussed, even though few people say they want that. It would allow those in the east to remain close to Russia and it would allow Russia to take Crimea back under its wing, which is hugely important to it historically and strategically.

But a clean split without further bloodshed is not that likely. It's unclear where any border would be. So there are strong reasons for avoiding a split as it may lead to civil war.
The parliamentary opposition and the government will at some point need to negotiate a settlement if war is to be avoided, but opposition leaders Vitaly Klitschko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk know that if they make too many concessions, that would be seen by hardline protestors as betrayal.

This is a like violent game of chess, and nobody can see enough moves ahead to know what the outcome will be."

Wait and see.
2014-02-19 10:51:30 PM  
1 vote:

danzak: flexflint: danzak: It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that for a while now; is it possible that Putin wants the South/South-East to run his pipelines through, and that he doesn't really mind about the West?

The EU put a stop on a South Stream line that would bypass Ukraine.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/122374


USA gas exports must be cutting into Russia's energy dominance in Europe.
2014-02-19 10:07:54 PM  
1 vote:

flexflint: danzak: It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that for a while now; is it possible that Putin wants the South/South-East to run his pipelines through, and that he doesn't really mind about the West?


The EU put a stop on a South Stream line that would bypass Ukraine.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/122374
2014-02-19 09:47:59 PM  
1 vote:

traylor: And BTW, those guns are field artillery guns, not antitank guns.


Based on the fact that wiki says that they're a version of the T-34/85 main gun I'm gonna say it's qualified to kill anything up to but not including a main battle tank. if one of those *does* shoot at one of the modified BTR-60s I saw the Berkut try and run into maidan yesterday it's gonna end up looking like someone stuck a grenade in a tin can. As for it being in a military museum, a lot of warsaw pact counties had a thing about just not scrapping old weapons after they were replaced, just in case they needed them later. There are stories that some of the old WWI era maxim guns are still sitting in some russian military warehouse someplace "just in case".
2014-02-19 07:05:29 PM  
1 vote:
Olympics: Ukrainians Maryna Lisogor and Kateryna Serdyuk (skiing) did not approach the starting line.
Matsyotska Bogdana and Matsyotskiy Oleg, "refuse to further participate in the Sochi Olympic Games of 2014"

/fark server blow up for anyone else?
2014-02-19 07:02:36 PM  
1 vote:

The_Sponge: megarian: The_Sponge: My relatives/ancestors are from Lviv, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.

/Half Ukie.
//Went there in November 1990.
///Western Ukraine is Best Ukraine.

(Western Ukrainian, too! Went when I was too young to appreciate it.)


*High Five*

/Was also too young to appreciate it.
//6th grade.


Ukrainian descent and a Seahawks fan? You have many fine qualities, my friend. Well, at least two.

/last name is an Ellis Island mutation of Tulchinskiy
//haven't been to Ukraine though
2014-02-19 05:09:09 PM  
1 vote:
2135 GMT: We now have confirmation, from the President's website, that a truce is in effect:
President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych held a meeting with Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine Volodymyr Rybak and members of the Working Group on the Settlement of Political Crisis.

The meeting was attended by Head of the Presidential Administration of Ukraine Andriy Kliuyev, First Deputy Head of the Presidential Administration of Ukraine Andriy Portnov, Acting Minister of Justice Olena Lukash and leaders of opposition parties Arseniy Yatsenyuk, Vitali Klitschko, Oleh Tiahnybok.

Following the meeting, the parties declared:

1. Truce

2. Beginning of negotiations aimed at cessation of bloodshed and stabilization of the situation in the country for the sake of civil peace.

It's not just the President saying this, either.
2014-02-19 05:04:22 PM  
1 vote:

Smeggy Smurf: youmightberight: DamnYankees: MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?

That would be quite the bold move, as its not his country.

Anyone remember Georgia?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x1078]

Fondly


That mans name is still cursed in Georgia (the state). Funny those guys seem to hold a grudge when you burn everything.
2014-02-19 04:57:27 PM  
1 vote:

USCLaw2010: President Ukraine just said he has agreed to a truce with opposition according to BBC


Now it's Ourkraine!
2014-02-19 04:52:00 PM  
1 vote:

youmightberight: DamnYankees: MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?

That would be quite the bold move, as its not his country.

Anyone remember Georgia?

upload.wikimedia.org


Fondly
2014-02-19 04:47:00 PM  
1 vote:
Everyone over there needs to calm down and eat their Chicken Kiev.

After this is over, there will be another in 5 or 10 years.
2014-02-19 04:44:59 PM  
1 vote:
Students are getting conscription notices.

pbs.twimg.com
2014-02-19 04:38:23 PM  
1 vote:

megarian: The_Sponge: My relatives/ancestors are from Lviv, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.

/Half Ukie.
//Went there in November 1990.
///Western Ukraine is Best Ukraine.

(Western Ukrainian, too! Went when I was too young to appreciate it.)


I've spent two weeks in a Pioneer Camp in Ukraine when I was a child about 25 years ago. It was USSR country then. All I remember is that there were some awesome huts made of lumber in the camp, I also saw a few amazingly big forests, and some beautiful mountains covered with trees. And it was always easy to find someone who spoke Hungarian.

I mostly liked it but I also had some mixed feelings because the food was awful and I almost drowned in a river when we went swimming.
2014-02-19 04:31:04 PM  
1 vote:
My fear is once Sochi is over and all the fanfare dies down, Russian Federation tanks and troops move in to Ukraine to support Yanukovych and are stationed in eastern Ukraine. That would be very very bad.

I hope I'm wrong but I'll check back on this post in a month and hope this post does not become self prophetic.
2014-02-19 04:17:00 PM  
1 vote:

dittybopper: zimbomba63: vpb: devildog123: Do these guys have any troops with guns on their side, or are they just hoping that the central government won't drop the Army on their laps and tear them apart?

The Minister of Defense has stated that the Army isn't going to get involved.

Besides, Ceausescu tried that and he ended up against a wall.

Always my favorite scene, Ceausescu and his wife, sitting at the table, threatening the military officers, while outside the firing squad is being formed up.  Well, bye!

It also spawned on of my favorite euphemisms:  Romanian Term Limits.


Hadn't heard that one before, I love it. Now my favorite.
2014-02-19 04:16:02 PM  
1 vote:

zimbomba63: vpb: devildog123: Do these guys have any troops with guns on their side, or are they just hoping that the central government won't drop the Army on their laps and tear them apart?

The Minister of Defense has stated that the Army isn't going to get involved.

Besides, Ceausescu tried that and he ended up against a wall.

Always my favorite scene, Ceausescu and his wife, sitting at the table, threatening the military officers, while outside the firing squad is being formed up.  Well, bye!


That just made Christmas that year.
2014-02-19 04:03:29 PM  
1 vote:

Pubby: bdub77: MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?

That would be hugely stupid. It's much better to find out which side favors trade agreements with Russia and then arm those people. See: Syria.

I doubt Putin would even try that. Any hint that he's about to go full Soviet in Eastern Europe and the EU will shut off the gas lines that bring Western Europe natural gas and oil and send oodles cash back to Moscow. The last thing Western Europe wants is a return to Russian satellite states growing them in from the east.

What's more is Putin know's it. That's why he's been playing the kids version of what the US used to do in LAtin America. Send chests of cash and intel to politicians to get them into power where they can do nice things for you, like sign exclusive trade deals that render your own country n economic satellite state of Russia...again.

Whats more is the Ukraine's putative status with regards to NATO. The Ukraine took far more concrete steps than Georgia ever did to join the alliance. Sending into troops into a nation that has previously been enthusiastic about NATO membership might set off some alarms over at the SACEUR's office. Which if you think how the match up between tiny, lightly armed Georgia and the might of the Russian army went, means that any attempt by Russian forces to take on a modern Western military falls somewhere between a desperate plea for assisted suicide and potato.


Considering Russia's typical response to political issues with Eastern Europe is "cut of natural gas supplies until they comply" I don't think that threat is going to be too effective. And more likely than sending troops into the Ukraine is to cut of gas supplies to dissenting regions with teh elp of the Ukraine government.
2014-02-19 03:59:15 PM  
1 vote:

DECMATH: tinfoil-hat maggie: Epresso TV live stream of Maiden

It looks like somebody is celebrating with fireworks.  And tires?


It a fun concert really.
2014-02-19 03:57:38 PM  
1 vote:

bdub77: MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?

That would be hugely stupid. It's much better to find out which side favors trade agreements with Russia and then arm those people. See: Syria.


Who stops him?  The world is rapidly seeing Ukraine as belonging to Russia, if they didn't already.
2014-02-19 03:53:37 PM  
1 vote:
2014-02-19 03:43:13 PM  
1 vote:
I hope the place gets partitioned. Everyone will have to go out and buy new maps. A boost our economy sorely needs.
2014-02-19 03:41:11 PM  
1 vote:

DetrimentalScience: HotWingConspiracy: Bomb Head Mohammed: and that's it.  the actual military is constitutionally forbidden from taking part in internal disputes (including civil wars) and this is something that is taken very seriously by them.  there is essentially zero chance they will join any conflict.

I read just read that Yabukovych sacked the commander in chief and installed a new one...do you think it's possible a yes man might be game to shiat on the constitution?

The military chief was replaced with someone who is very pro-military. Additionally, he declared all of the protestors terrorists which gives the military carte blanche to get involved.


err pro-kremlin
2014-02-19 03:35:46 PM  
1 vote:

bdub77: MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?

That would be hugely stupid. It's much better to find out which side favors trade agreements with Russia and then arm those people. See: Syria.


I doubt Putin would even try that. Any hint that he's about to go full Soviet in Eastern Europe and the EU will shut off the gas lines that bring Western Europe natural gas and oil and send oodles cash back to Moscow. The last thing Western Europe wants is a return to Russian satellite states growing them in from the east.

What's more is Putin know's it. That's why he's been playing the kids version of what the US used to do in LAtin America. Send chests of cash and intel to politicians to get them into power where they can do nice things for you, like sign exclusive trade deals that render your own country n economic satellite state of Russia...again.

Whats more is the Ukraine's putative status with regards to NATO. The Ukraine took far more concrete steps than Georgia ever did to join the alliance. Sending into troops into a nation that has previously been enthusiastic about NATO membership might set off some alarms over at the SACEUR's office. Which if you think how the match up between tiny, lightly armed Georgia and the might of the Russian army went, means that any attempt by Russian forces to take on a modern Western military falls somewhere between a desperate plea for assisted suicide and potato.
2014-02-19 03:31:37 PM  
1 vote:
Lviv

What's so important about 55 and 4?

//or is it 56 and 5?
2014-02-19 03:29:08 PM  
1 vote:

TheShavingofOccam123: I hope this region has oil or some other resource Europe craves. Otherwise, Russia will probably help crush that side of the civil war.


Will caviar work?
2014-02-19 03:28:27 PM  
1 vote:
I'm so glad to have a revolution to cheer for that doesn't involve "Evil Dictator" VS "Evil Theocrats". I was getting tired of the constant let down from Syria and Egypt.
2014-02-19 03:28:25 PM  
1 vote:

TheShavingofOccam123: I hope this region has oil or some other resource Europe craves. Otherwise, Russia will probably help crush that side of the civil war.


All of this started when a trade agreement with the EU got squashed. So there's money in them hills.
2014-02-19 03:16:11 PM  
1 vote:

The_Sponge: My relatives/ancestors are from Lviv, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.

/Half Ukie.
//Went there in November 1990.
///Western Ukraine is Best Ukraine.


(Western Ukrainian, too! Went when I was too young to appreciate it.)
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-19 03:03:02 PM  
1 vote:

devildog123: Do these guys have any troops with guns on their side, or are they just hoping that the central government won't drop the Army on their laps and tear them apart?


The Minister of Defense has stated that the Army isn't going to get involved.

Besides, Ceausescu tried that and he ended up against a wall.
2014-02-19 02:38:26 PM  
1 vote:
Do these guys have any troops with guns on their side, or are they just hoping that the central government won't drop the Army on their laps and tear them apart?
 
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