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(International Business Times)   Ukraine? Nope. Mykraine   (ibtimes.co.uk) divider line 184
    More: Scary, Ukraine, President Yanukovich, Lviv, Kyiv, protest camp, civil wars, independence  
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7923 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Feb 2014 at 3:13 PM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-19 05:41:05 PM  

DamnYankees: I'm sure this will end well. That part of the world has a long history of peace and calmness.


Where would you find a  part of the world with a long history of peace and calmness?
 
2014-02-19 05:45:09 PM  
That Guy Jeff
I'm so glad to have a revolution to cheer for that doesn't involve "Evil Dictator" VS "Evil Theocrats". I was getting tired of the constant let down from Syria and Egypt.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's probably pro-Russian authoritarian nationalists vs anti-Russian authoritarian nationalists.
 
2014-02-19 05:47:47 PM  

Ninja Otter: And they had to go for it. You Only Lviv Once.


And then someone gave it a cry to Lviv and let die
 
2014-02-19 05:53:56 PM  

rwdavis: DamnYankees: I'm sure this will end well. That part of the world has a long history of peace and calmness.

Where would you find a  part of the world with a long history of peace and calmness?


Northern Greenland.
 
2014-02-19 05:55:15 PM  
Damn... watching the live feed, some dude got his camera jacked.
 
2014-02-19 05:55:23 PM  

zerkalo: Ninja Otter: And they had to go for it. You Only Lviv Once.

And then someone gave it a cry to Lviv and let die


Well, if that doesn't scare The Lvivng Daylights out of anyone...
 
2014-02-19 05:57:38 PM  

youmightberight: dywed88: youmightberight: DamnYankees: MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?

That would be quite the bold move, as its not his country.

Anyone remember Georgia?

Really a differenct situation. In Georgia, the Georgian army attacked an autonomous region that had be de facto independant for years and which requested Russian help.

Ukraine is a bit more complicated. It would be a lot harder to ppolitically support moving significant troops into the Ukraine to stop what is (at this time) a non-violent declaration of independence. Now, sending a few advisors in is not out of the question, but you won't see tanks rolling across the border. Unlike the Saudis they can't send their army into their neighbours when the masses get uppity without any objections.

If Russia takes action, it is far more likely to be its standard manipulating natural gas supplies, which it has used to keep the Ukraine in line for decades.

That is Russia's standard manipulation tactic but isn't there another pipeline in the Ukraine now? Also I always though south Ossetia was part of Georgia, was there an internationally recognized government at the time shooting started between Georgia and south Ossetia?


Do you know what "de facto" means?
 
2014-02-19 05:58:54 PM  

Dr Jack Badofsky: tinfoil-hat maggie: [www.interpretermag.com image 620x377]
Places where stuff is going on.

That's weak.


It's also very incomplete.
 
2014-02-19 06:02:49 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: bdub77: MaudlinMutantMollusk: What's the line on Putin rolling in the tanks?

That would be hugely stupid. It's much better to find out which side favors trade agreements with Russia and then arm those people. See: Syria.

Who stops him?  The world is rapidly seeing Ukraine as belonging to Russia, if they didn't already.


wut?
 
2014-02-19 06:03:16 PM  

rwdavis: DamnYankees: I'm sure this will end well. That part of the world has a long history of peace and calmness.

Where would you find a  part of the world with a long history of peace and calmness?


erm.... Israel because Jesus is in charge.

that wasn't hard.
 
2014-02-19 06:07:23 PM  

megarian: The_Sponge: My relatives/ancestors are from Lviv, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.

/Half Ukie.
//Went there in November 1990.
///Western Ukraine is Best Ukraine.

(Western Ukrainian, too! Went when I was too young to appreciate it.)



*High Five*

/Was also too young to appreciate it.
//6th grade.
 
2014-02-19 06:07:49 PM  

zerkalo: tinfoil-hat maggie: That Guy Jeff: I'm so glad to have a revolution to cheer for that doesn't involve "Evil Dictator" VS "Evil Theocrats". I was getting tired of the constant let down from Syria and Egypt.

I guess you haven't noticed the stage at Maiden or peen listening to the priest they bring in.

Are you calling Orthodox priests "evil". Because they are present at an event In a predominantly Orthodox country?


I might be calling all religion evil : )
 
2014-02-19 06:09:36 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: zerkalo: tinfoil-hat maggie: That Guy Jeff: I'm so glad to have a revolution to cheer for that doesn't involve "Evil Dictator" VS "Evil Theocrats". I was getting tired of the constant let down from Syria and Egypt.

I guess you haven't noticed the stage at Maiden or peen listening to the priest they bring in.

Are you calling Orthodox priests "evil". Because they are present at an event In a predominantly Orthodox country?

I might be calling all religion evil : )



I was baptized Ukrainian Orthodox, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.

/Was done in honor of my Grandparents.
//These days, I'm a lazy Presbyterian who can't remember the last time he was at church.
 
2014-02-19 07:02:36 PM  

The_Sponge: megarian: The_Sponge: My relatives/ancestors are from Lviv, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.

/Half Ukie.
//Went there in November 1990.
///Western Ukraine is Best Ukraine.

(Western Ukrainian, too! Went when I was too young to appreciate it.)


*High Five*

/Was also too young to appreciate it.
//6th grade.


Ukrainian descent and a Seahawks fan? You have many fine qualities, my friend. Well, at least two.

/last name is an Ellis Island mutation of Tulchinskiy
//haven't been to Ukraine though
 
2014-02-19 07:03:17 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: I hope this region has oil or some other resource Europe craves. Otherwise, Russia will probably help crush that side of the civil war.


Ukraine has important transport infrastructures and mad mineral resources.
 
2014-02-19 07:05:29 PM  
Olympics: Ukrainians Maryna Lisogor and Kateryna Serdyuk (skiing) did not approach the starting line.
Matsyotska Bogdana and Matsyotskiy Oleg, "refuse to further participate in the Sochi Olympic Games of 2014"

/fark server blow up for anyone else?
 
2014-02-19 07:11:23 PM  

flexflint: Olympics: Ukrainians Maryna Lisogor and Kateryna Serdyuk (skiing) did not approach the starting line.
Matsyotska Bogdana and Matsyotskiy Oleg, "refuse to further participate in the Sochi Olympic Games of 2014"

/fark server blow up for anyone else?


Yeah.
 
2014-02-19 07:12:49 PM  

The_Sponge: megarian: The_Sponge: My relatives/ancestors are from Lviv, so I'm really getting a kick out of these responses.

/Half Ukie.
//Went there in November 1990.
///Western Ukraine is Best Ukraine.

(Western Ukrainian, too! Went when I was too young to appreciate it.)


*High Five*

/Was also too young to appreciate it.
//6th grade.


I was in my mid twenties in the mid oughts when I went:  Good times, good times!  On my last night there I bought 2 top shelf bottles of чистий, a carton of smokes, and six half liter beers for the cab ride back to the hotel for 8 US bucks!  I also bought a 3 liter bottle of voddy at duty free that came with a pump like the kind that might dispense ketchup at a fast food place.  That was a HUGE hit at my sister's поправиня! :D
 
2014-02-19 07:13:24 PM  

flexflint: Olympics: Ukrainians Maryna Lisogor and Kateryna Serdyuk (skiing) did not approach the starting line.
Matsyotska Bogdana and Matsyotskiy Oleg, "refuse to further participate in the Sochi Olympic Games of 2014"

/fark server blow up for anyone else?


I think it was for everyone. Happened on my end at least
 
2014-02-19 07:14:09 PM  

flexflint: Olympics: Ukrainians Maryna Lisogor and Kateryna Serdyuk (skiing) did not approach the starting line.
Matsyotska Bogdana and Matsyotskiy Oleg, "refuse to further participate in the Sochi Olympic Games of 2014"

/fark server blow up for anyone else?


And here I thought the server took a steamer just for me!
 
2014-02-19 07:32:27 PM  

marius2: I can't imagine why the cops are even fighting back at this point, I don't see what's in it for them anymore.


Lviv police commander: It is important that the police realized that they need to be with the people. We are together."
 
2014-02-19 07:35:52 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: rwdavis: DamnYankees: I'm sure this will end well. That part of the world has a long history of peace and calmness.

Where would you find a  part of the world with a long history of peace and calmness?

Northern Greenland.


Polar bears would like a word with you.
 
2014-02-19 07:42:37 PM  

Spare Me: I heard a news report that at least one government armory has been breached. Several thousand weapons are missing.

4.bp.blogspot.com

 
2014-02-19 07:48:08 PM  
Anyone in for some comeuppance? I know I am. Since things are (hopefully) winding down a bit, here's a very interesting video about the titushki: http://youtu.be/d50uu5EAvm8

Can anyone tell me what part of the military the guy at 04:13 belongs to? He seems to be very well equipped, and it's the first time that I see some airborne or paratrooper emblem (see his helmet).

Also some IED's in there, those paramilitary guys are real thugs, and/or mentally challenged people maintained by the government, just like the Basij in Iraq.
 
2014-02-19 08:11:00 PM  

jack_o_the_hills: Poland can't be amused by this either.


Or maybe Poland would just like their territory back. Lviv used to be called Lemberg, part of Austria-Poland in the early 20th century. (had a relative from there)
 
2014-02-19 08:12:47 PM  

flexflint: Anyone in for some comeuppance? I know I am. Since things are (hopefully) winding down a bit, here's a very interesting video about the titushki: http://youtu.be/d50uu5EAvm8

Can anyone tell me what part of the military the guy at 04:13 belongs to? He seems to be very well equipped, and it's the first time that I see some airborne or paratrooper emblem (see his helmet).

Also some IED's in there, those paramilitary guys are real thugs, and/or mentally challenged people maintained by the government, just like the Basij in Iraq.


* The Iran, sorry.
 
2014-02-19 08:28:34 PM  

uncle soondead: Smeggy Smurf: rwdavis: DamnYankees: I'm sure this will end well. That part of the world has a long history of peace and calmness.

Where would you find a  part of the world with a long history of peace and calmness?

Northern Greenland.

Polar bears would like a word with you.


Good.  They're tasty.  Just don't eat the liver
 
2014-02-19 08:35:51 PM  
www.interpretermag.com
Picture of "peaceful protesters" with antitank guns in Lviv.
 
2014-02-19 08:37:17 PM  
Berkuters having a rest.

pbs.twimg.com

Bus was carrying titushkyes, who fled when the bus was stopped, then the bus was set on fire.

pbs.twimg.com

Deans of Lviv National University: "We can't work while people are killed"

pbs.twimg.com

Not much going on tonight. The cease-fire seems to be working.
 
2014-02-19 08:42:47 PM  
What a "non-lethal" grenade can do: (NSFW jpg)
 
2014-02-19 08:43:08 PM  

traylor: Not much going on tonight. The cease-fire seems to be working.


I'm reading that it may have shattered but it's heard to tell but no big push right now.
 
2014-02-19 08:49:36 PM  

flexflint: What a "non-lethal" grenade can do: (NSFW jpg)


There was a post earlier on the liveblog that the berkut were taping rocks to the outside of their stun grenades. Which makes a sick sort of sense, likely does almost a much damage as a fragmentation grenade but with no telltale metal bits getting dug out for people to show the world.
 
2014-02-19 09:08:51 PM  

amindofiron: flexflint: What a "non-lethal" grenade can do: (NSFW jpg)

There was a post earlier on the liveblog that the berkut were taping rocks to the outside of their stun grenades. Which makes a sick sort of sense, likely does almost a much damage as a fragmentation grenade but with no telltale metal bits getting dug out for people to show the world.


Classic paramilitary tactics, those berkut probably learned it from the titushky. Why is it that every dictatorial government seems to have specialists on that subject?
 
2014-02-19 09:11:21 PM  

lindalouwho: TheShavingofOccam123: I hope this region has oil or some other resource Europe craves. Otherwise, Russia will probably help crush that side of the civil war.

Ukraine has important transport infrastructures and mad mineral resources.


You obviously haven't driven on Ukrainian roads :)

Sadly, not joking really
 
2014-02-19 09:20:04 PM  

flexflint: amindofiron: flexflint: What a "non-lethal" grenade can do: (NSFW jpg)

There was a post earlier on the liveblog that the berkut were taping rocks to the outside of their stun grenades. Which makes a sick sort of sense, likely does almost a much damage as a fragmentation grenade but with no telltale metal bits getting dug out for people to show the world.

Classic paramilitary tactics, those berkut probably learned it from the titushky. Why is it that every dictatorial government seems to have specialists on that subject?


I've heard the "rocks taped to stun grenades" thing every single time stun grenades have ever been used in a protest.  Which makes me wonder whether or not everyone saw it in someone else's post who heard it from a guy that heard it from some other guy.

Not to say it's never been done, just probably not as much as people think.
 
2014-02-19 09:25:39 PM  

amindofiron: flexflint: What a "non-lethal" grenade can do: (NSFW jpg)

There was a post earlier on the liveblog that the berkut were taping rocks to the outside of their stun grenades. Which makes a sick sort of sense, likely does almost a much damage as a fragmentation grenade but with no telltale metal bits getting dug out for people to show the world.


I saw that as well it's nasty but as someone earlier said if this was going on in L.A. it would a bloodbath once the first cop died.
 
2014-02-19 09:31:31 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: [www.interpretermag.com image 620x382]
Picture of "peaceful protesters" with antitank guns in Lviv.


img.fark.net

85 mm divisional gun D-44

upload.wikimedia.org
It took me a while to find it. These guns were produced between 1945-1953. I doubt that they are used anywhere today, these type of guns were replaced by self-propelled guns a long ago. Maybe similar towed guns are used in Best Korea?

I guess they were towed there form a military museum. Even if you have the proper ammunition, they are not easy to fire. They have the stopping power of scrape metal of similar weight.
 
2014-02-19 09:33:54 PM  
*scrap metal
 
2014-02-19 09:33:58 PM  

danzak: lindalouwho: TheShavingofOccam123: I hope this region has oil or some other resource Europe craves. Otherwise, Russia will probably help crush that side of the civil war.

Ukraine has important transport infrastructures and mad mineral resources.

You obviously haven't driven on Ukrainian roads :)

Sadly, not joking really


No I haven't. I wasn't clear, but I was thinking more of the moving of goods, ships, oil, trains, etc internationally.
Then again, to be honest, for all I know those things may be outdated now. But I was under the impression that's partly why Putin wants to re-absorb Ukraine.

/have been more focused on what most Ukrainians want - freedom
 
2014-02-19 09:36:38 PM  
And BTW, those guns are field artillery guns, not antitank guns.
 
2014-02-19 09:47:51 PM  

lindalouwho: danzak: lindalouwho: TheShavingofOccam123: I hope this region has oil or some other resource Europe craves. Otherwise, Russia will probably help crush that side of the civil war.

Ukraine has important transport infrastructures and mad mineral resources.

You obviously haven't driven on Ukrainian roads :)

Sadly, not joking really

No I haven't. I wasn't clear, but I was thinking more of the moving of goods, ships, oil, trains, etc internationally.
Then again, to be honest, for all I know those things may be outdated now. But I was under the impression that's partly why Putin wants to re-absorb Ukraine.

/have been more focused on what most Ukrainians want - freedom


Yeah, I know. It was a joke, anyone who has driven in Ukraine knows what I mean. It's terrible.
 
2014-02-19 09:47:59 PM  

traylor: And BTW, those guns are field artillery guns, not antitank guns.


Based on the fact that wiki says that they're a version of the T-34/85 main gun I'm gonna say it's qualified to kill anything up to but not including a main battle tank. if one of those *does* shoot at one of the modified BTR-60s I saw the Berkut try and run into maidan yesterday it's gonna end up looking like someone stuck a grenade in a tin can. As for it being in a military museum, a lot of warsaw pact counties had a thing about just not scrapping old weapons after they were replaced, just in case they needed them later. There are stories that some of the old WWI era maxim guns are still sitting in some russian military warehouse someplace "just in case".
 
2014-02-19 09:48:13 PM  

traylor: It took me a while to find it. These guns were produced between 1945-1953. I doubt that they are used anywhere today, these type of guns were replaced by self-propelled guns a long ago. Maybe similar towed guns are used in Best Korea?

I guess they were towed there form a military museum.


That's awesome in a way, if true. My guess is this happens with most uprisings; in times of hardship in a society, people can really come together and move mountains. But these people have really stunned me with their ingenuity, fearlessness, friendliness, and all out positivity.
 
2014-02-19 09:49:23 PM  
It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.
 
2014-02-19 09:55:38 PM  

danzak: It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.


Yeah, I've been thinking about that for a while now; is it possible that Putin wants the South/South-East to run his pipelines through, and that he doesn't really mind about the West?
 
2014-02-19 10:07:54 PM  

flexflint: danzak: It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that for a while now; is it possible that Putin wants the South/South-East to run his pipelines through, and that he doesn't really mind about the West?


The EU put a stop on a South Stream line that would bypass Ukraine.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/122374
 
2014-02-19 10:51:30 PM  

danzak: flexflint: danzak: It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that for a while now; is it possible that Putin wants the South/South-East to run his pipelines through, and that he doesn't really mind about the West?

The EU put a stop on a South Stream line that would bypass Ukraine.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/122374


USA gas exports must be cutting into Russia's energy dominance in Europe.
 
2014-02-19 11:14:52 PM  

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: danzak: flexflint: danzak: It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that for a while now; is it possible that Putin wants the South/South-East to run his pipelines through, and that he doesn't really mind about the West?

The EU put a stop on a South Stream line that would bypass Ukraine.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/122374

USA gas exports must be cutting into Russia's energy dominance in Europe.


I'd really like to be a fly on the wall in one of those European meetings that must be going on now, energy surely plays an enormous part in what's going on right now.

Also, from BBC:

" [...] a split between eastern Ukraine and western Ukraine is being openly discussed, even though few people say they want that. It would allow those in the east to remain close to Russia and it would allow Russia to take Crimea back under its wing, which is hugely important to it historically and strategically.

But a clean split without further bloodshed is not that likely. It's unclear where any border would be. So there are strong reasons for avoiding a split as it may lead to civil war.
The parliamentary opposition and the government will at some point need to negotiate a settlement if war is to be avoided, but opposition leaders Vitaly Klitschko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk know that if they make too many concessions, that would be seen by hardline protestors as betrayal.

This is a like violent game of chess, and nobody can see enough moves ahead to know what the outcome will be."

Wait and see.
 
2014-02-19 11:32:35 PM  

traylor: tinfoil-hat maggie: [www.interpretermag.com image 620x382]
Picture of "peaceful protesters" with antitank guns in Lviv.

[img.fark.net image 620x382]

85 mm divisional gun D-44

[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x408]
It took me a while to find it. These guns were produced between 1945-1953. I doubt that they are used anywhere today, these type of guns were replaced by self-propelled guns a long ago. Maybe similar towed guns are used in Best Korea?

I guess they were towed there form a military museum. Even if you have the proper ammunition, they are not easy to fire. They have the stopping power of scrape metal of similar weight.


Um what do think Russ tanks are made of? And that defense looks like fire two rounds and set the tires on fire then retreat.
 
2014-02-19 11:37:04 PM  

flexflint: The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: danzak: flexflint: danzak: It's mostly about gas pipelines now. Russian gas to Europe goes through Ukraine.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that for a while now; is it possible that Putin wants the South/South-East to run his pipelines through, and that he doesn't really mind about the West?

The EU put a stop on a South Stream line that would bypass Ukraine.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/122374

USA gas exports must be cutting into Russia's energy dominance in Europe.

I'd really like to be a fly on the wall in one of those European meetings that must be going on now, energy surely plays an enormous part in what's going on right now.

Also, from BBC:

" [...] a split between eastern Ukraine and western Ukraine is being openly discussed, even though few people say they want that. It would allow those in the east to remain close to Russia and it would allow Russia to take Crimea back under its wing, which is hugely important to it historically and strategically.

But a clean split without further bloodshed is not that likely. It's unclear where any border would be. So there are strong reasons for avoiding a split as it may lead to civil war.
The parliamentary opposition and the government will at some point need to negotiate a settlement if war is to be avoided, but opposition leaders Vitaly Klitschko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk know that if they make too many concessions, that would be seen by hardline protestors as betrayal.

This is a like violent game of chess, and nobody can see enough moves ahead to know what the outcome will be."

Wait and see.


That's quite depressing all around.  Although nobody really wants a split, I suppose a Czechoslovakia type split would be preferable to bloodshed (not to mention it would be a raw deal for Ethnic Ukrainians since Stalin is the one who transplanted Ethnic Russians in the East and South).  Russia has time and again shown how much Ukrainian blood they are willing to spill for their own selfish gains for things like a warm water port :(
 
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