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(CNN)   After yesterday's bloodshed, Ukrainian president Yanukovych decides to dial back the rhetoric and become a voice of reason. Just kidding, he orders protesters to "disassociate themselves" from each other or be considered enemies of the state   (cnn.com) divider line 80
    More: Followup, President Viktor Yanukovych, Ukrainian President, Ukrainian, enemy of the state, moral support, Government of Ukraine, Catherine Ashton, Independence Square  
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2129 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Feb 2014 at 1:14 PM (29 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2014-02-19 02:44:03 PM
4 votes:

FarkedOver: I have no problem with cracking down on nationalistic protestors.  Stamp out fascism before it takes root.


There are some extremists that have joined the protests and unfortunately some are violent, but to characterize the majority of the movement as "fascist" is false. Where are you getting your information, the Ukrainian government? The Russian govenrment perhaps? Or maybe it's someone like Dr. Stephen Cohen? Link goes to a debate moderated by Amy Goodman. Scroll to the end where Cohen defends Vladimir Putin. Neat!

The Ukrainian government wants to be closer to Putin's authoritarian Russia. If you're so anti-nationalism, how is supporting that remotely justifiable? Will you try to claim that nationalism and fascism are terrible, but authoritarianism is just dandy?

The truth is that the opposition includes people from the left, right, and center. Svoboda hard liners do not comprise the majority of the protesters. A cursory look at Ukrainian politics shows that traditional views of opposing left and right wing forces are very muddled there. Pro-EU vs. Pro-Russia is a far more meaningful divide.

Of course Russia and the Ukrainian government want to paint the opposition as nothing but a bunch of violent, far right wing fascists. It's a lie, but it will make it okay to crush them. How nice that they have people like you to carry water for them.
2014-02-19 01:37:39 PM
4 votes:
i hate to defend their government, but they have shown remarkable restraint so far.  the protesters basically took over that whole neighborhood, put up roadblocks, etc, and the ukraine president basically let them sit there for a few weeks in the hopes they would get bored and vacate the area.  what was he supposed to do?  just resign office because a bunch of people were protesting?  he had the military and the police keep an eye on them for weeks and finally gave them a deadline to get the hell out of there.  i mean its terrible that it turned to violence, but neither side was going to budge, and the government will always win a battle like that.  deep down i think the protesters were hoping the police would finally step in because no matter what happened, the government would look like the bad guys in that situation.  but the government had no choice, what could they do, just let the protesters live there forever?

imagine if some protesters just took over wall street in new york or something, blocked the streets, burned tires, and threw rocks at police.  i don't think our president or the local authorities would be anywhere near as patient with them as ukraine's government was.  obama would have called in the national guard and they would have locked the place down in one day.  there's no way our own government would allow a rebellious protest last as long as the one in ukraine has
2014-02-19 04:22:02 PM
3 votes:

FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups


FarkedOver: fascism


FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups


FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi


FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.


FarkedOver: Nazi Party


FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis



FarkedOver: I'm just asking

2014-02-19 01:43:41 PM
3 votes:

enderthexenocide: i hate to defend their government, but they have shown remarkable restraint so far.  the protesters basically took over that whole neighborhood, put up roadblocks, etc, and the ukraine president basically let them sit there for a few weeks in the hopes they would get bored and vacate the area.  what was he supposed to do?  just resign office because a bunch of people were protesting?  he had the military and the police keep an eye on them for weeks and finally gave them a deadline to get the hell out of there.  i mean its terrible that it turned to violence, but neither side was going to budge, and the government will always win a battle like that.  deep down i think the protesters were hoping the police would finally step in because no matter what happened, the government would look like the bad guys in that situation.  but the government had no choice, what could they do, just let the protesters live there forever?

imagine if some protesters just took over wall street in new york or something, blocked the streets, burned tires, and threw rocks at police.  i don't think our president or the local authorities would be anywhere near as patient with them as ukraine's government was.  obama would have called in the national guard and they would have locked the place down in one day.  there's no way our own government would allow a rebellious protest last as long as the one in ukraine has


They also took over Lviv and declared independence. This is a civil war now not a protest.
2014-02-19 01:18:41 PM
3 votes:
He also just sacked the head of the army. Rumors are because the army chief refused to crack down on protestors. This is going to get MUCH MUCH worse soon. He has the tacit approval of Russia and the west is too weak to step in. The crackdown coming soon will be quick and brutal and as a human being it saddens me to no end.
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-19 12:46:27 PM
3 votes:
I know where he can get some advice for handling the situation!

news.bbcimg.co.uk
2014-02-19 09:49:44 PM
2 votes:

tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.

It's sorta funny Marx is sorta like Jesus everyone feel strongly one way or another about what they said but so few people ever bothered to read or follow what was actually said.

/Now I'm gonna get flamed.

You're entering a world of hurt.... I'm sorry :(

Meh nothin' better to do : )

[www.interpretermag.com image 620x382]
img.fark.net
"Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.


Meh. I have to post my comment in this thread too.

85 mm divisional gun D-44

img.fark.net

It took me a while to find it. These guns were produced between 1945-1953. I doubt that they are used anywhere today, these type of guns were replaced by self-propelled guns a long ago. Maybe similar towed guns are used in Best Korea?

I guess they were towed there form a military museum. Even if you have the proper ammunition, they are not easy to fire. They have the stopping power of scrap metal of similar weight.

And BTW, those guns are field artillery guns, not antitank guns.
2014-02-19 09:41:48 PM
2 votes:
It would appear that my entire post got borked, so I'll try my best to recreate it but regarding FarkedOver's assertions that this is an entirely rightwing Neo Nazi movement, I have not seen one poster claim that there is no trace of the vile Nazis whatsoever in Ukraine.  Like most European countries, yes, this scum does exist and it does have a slight minority control.  Why you are being belittled is because your argument holds as much water as some European claiming that The United States is A Tea Party Nation.  Of course, I would prefer that someone use one of their three genie wishes to blink those assholes out of existence, but in some bizarro turn of events, you believe the burden of proof to be on the protester supporters to provide evidence to the contrary of your baseless claim that the whole crowd is Svoboda.  Furthermore, I have seen no indication that you or Maggie are aware that Свобода (Svoboda) is NOT just a proper name.  You may be conflating the party with the word itself.  Свобода directly translates to "freedom" so it may very well be that every time any protester is talking about the noun freedom, you get to stroke your chin and sagely nod, "Ah, yes, Neo Nazis"....
2014-02-19 04:38:10 PM
2 votes:
"We hold the Ukrainian government primarily responsible for making sure that it is dealing with peaceful protesters in an appropriate way, that the Ukrainian people are able to assemble and speak freely about their interests without fear of repression,"

Huh?  Is he trying to be ironic or something?  This is how we deal with the mildest/peaceful of protest in the US:

cryptome.org
If the protesters (hell even one or two) acted like they are there it would look the same except the fires would be from burning bodies ignited by the hail of incendiary devices used to 'disperse' the crowd.

Lethal force would be authorized the *moment* an officer was seriously injured, and we know how our cops roll when lethal force is authorized.
2014-02-19 03:43:16 PM
2 votes:
Fark has been a hive of scum and villainy for quite some time but I'm hard pressed to think of a subject where people have been so aggressively ignorant!  Ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine are (shock) pro Russian but even the East is starting to get fed up with Yanukovich's rule (there are protests even happening in Donbass and Kharkiv).  Ethnic Ukrainians largely see themselves as European.  Full stop.  If you believe otherwise, you are not qualified to hold even a casual discussion on this topic.

But then again, what the hell would an Ethnic Ukrainian that speaks the language know?  Listening to the speakers themselves with no filter obviously doesn't hold a candle to FarkedOver's wild assertions from government propaganda sources!  Before you go on about your poll again, it is pretty damn clear to everyone that polls mean jack and shiat even HERE in the US.  You want to use those polls as hard evidence when their media makes Fox News look legit:img.fark.net
Rough translations:
Left: "What Russian media showed"
Right: "What I saw"
2014-02-19 02:48:23 PM
2 votes:

hellfrozeover: Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.


It falls in line with the population.  The western half of the country speaks and is mostly Ukrainian, while the east is Russian.  The western half wants to be with EU and the right Russia.  The cities and army are also split so we are looking at a real civil war in the making. The big question is what will Russia do when it breaks out into open warfare.
2014-02-19 02:43:38 PM
2 votes:

FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.


Here's one.  Funny, it says the exact opposite of the survey you found.
2014-02-19 02:36:12 PM
2 votes:
2014-02-19 02:18:00 PM
2 votes:
Freedom isn't free and I'm damned proud of the Ukrainians for standing up to their non-representative government.  If they manage to overthrow the pro-Russian government that's tormenting them, then the American people and government should be ready to throw their total support behind those revolutionary forces in Ukraine.

Good luck you crazy Ukrainian bastards.
2014-02-19 01:58:49 PM
2 votes:

FarkedOver: I'm willing to bet most of the Ukrainian population doesn't want to be included into the EU


I think you would be wrong.  Parts of the east don't, but their economy relies heavily on trade with Russia.  Still, even they have also been getting screwed last couple of years.  It remains very poor with high unemployment and little opportunity.  Western Ukraine and most of central Ukraine would support closer ties to the EU.
2014-02-19 01:58:39 PM
2 votes:
I'm rooting for the janitorial staff that will have to clean all this up once these unemployed people and government goons leave the square.  They are the real heroes.
2014-02-19 01:42:41 PM
2 votes:

FarkedOver: I have no problem with cracking down on nationalistic protestors.  Stamp out fascism before it takes root.


It seems to be Fascism A v. Fascism B, to me.
2014-02-19 01:31:24 PM
2 votes:
My 78-year-old Ukrainian mother had no idea about any of this when I talked to her yesterday. I wasn't surprised, she's 78 years old and not always up on current events, so I explained a bit about what I knew. Her father fought against the Bolsheviks so I made some comment about how history always repeats itself to which she replied, "Oh yeah, like Matthew McConaughy said in True Detective last week, time is like a flat circle" and I immediately had to reassess everything I know about my mother.
2014-02-19 01:26:40 PM
2 votes:
BBC reporting armed forces head Gen. Volodymyr Zamana has been dismissed. Replacement is Adm. Yuriy Ilyin. EU pondering sanctions.

Blogger with liveblog and maps: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/
Reuters feed: http://www.livestation.com/en/reuters (feed is back up following G20 press conference w/Hollande, Merkel, and EC prez Barroso, has camera pointed at the square from behind the protestors' lines, has audio feed.)
Espreso feed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_LFrMcoEm4 (feed is up, audio appears to be commentary over speeches)

tl;dr: put another tire on the barricades, both sides settling in for a long night.

/this is in no way a bookmark
2014-02-19 01:24:10 PM
2 votes:
John Kerry: "President Yanokovich has the opportunity to make a choice, a choice between protecting the people that he serves -- all of the people -- and the choice for compromise and dialogue versus violence and mayhem,"

This sounds familiar.
Like we might agitate until Ukraine is forced deeper into bed with Putin, then decide international interests are served and go back to watching scripted-reality shows.
2014-02-19 01:20:21 PM
2 votes:

DetrimentalScience: and the west is too weak to step in


don't you think the EU should step in WAY before the U.S. starts knocking down fences to invade someones back yard?
2014-02-19 01:20:14 PM
2 votes:

Captain Steroid: This is turning into a nightmare. :-(


I think it's been one for a while.
2014-02-20 07:57:19 AM
1 votes:
2014-02-19 11:07:24 PM
1 votes:
My Finns are worried :(

Carl Bildt @carlbildt (Twitter)

We must be clear: Ultimate responsibility for deaths and violence is with President Yanukovich. He has blood on his hands.

I know Anglos have the similar phrase "blood on hands". But it is still not quite the same. For all I know of, Bildt just uttered a declaration of a blood feud...

..as a kinda warning for Fellow Nordics to prepare for the worst kind of retaliation you can imagine. So, in effect {Bildt} told that a military intervention might be unavoidable.

...I wouldn't like too much Russian tanks rolling in like in Hungary '56, Checkoslovakia '68, or Georgia '07 (or so). The latter was done on purpose during the Olympics to keep it as much from headlines as possible. In fact SO WERE THE TWO FORMER!
2014-02-19 11:05:14 PM
1 votes:

Kittypie070: tinfoil-hat maggie: Kittypie070: Hey, I think Angry Speech Dude has returned.

Is that on espresso TV?

Yup.

G'nights, Farked Over :)


The fella speechifying on maidanhotspot's espresso link was talking about the people that have just bussed into Kyiv from Lviv and any other areas.  Basically just thanking them for being on the road 4-5+ hours to join them there.  And now he's leading a singing of the National Anthem
2014-02-19 10:51:52 PM
1 votes:
Goodnight all.  I need to get outta here.  Ran, always a pleasure.  Maggie.... thank you kindly! The rest of you Nazis can fark off and die (just kidding, have a good night, I know you're not Nazis).
2014-02-19 10:48:08 PM
1 votes:

tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)

(cough) Hugonaughts (cough)


I guessing, just guessing now, you're talking about the Huguenots, right?  Please go on.
2014-02-19 10:23:06 PM
1 votes:
FarkedOver
Rann, I agree with you 9 times out of 10. I can only assume you've been reading the anarchist perspective coming out of Ukraine. I know I have, and I know the intimidation from the right amongst the protesters is cause for concern. This is something anarchists and communists would unite on.

This is basically what we're going on.
In practice, it means eating popcorn while watching videos of cops being beaten and immolated.

As for Svoboda, it's not as simple as saying they're fascists. A lot of the right-wing nationalism, especially centered on Lviv, seems to have ancestry with the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, the military wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which fought against both the Communists and the Nazis. Their red-and-black flag was initially pretty confusing for a lot of anarchists, but I think for the most part everyone's been straightened out.

Anyway, it's FAR more complicated than "THEY'RE NAZIIIIISSSS!!!!!" and engaging the ENTIRE population of protesters as equivalent to a small fraction is hardly productive. The vast majority of people in any group are non-ideological. Even if they fight on the side of fascists, they might not realize it unless said fascists are waving around straight-arm salutes and goose-steppingm, and probably not even then. If the fascists are just saying "Our country is the best!" (which in Ukrainian is apparently "Slava Ukraini") and waving the flag and so on, they're hardly distinguishable from any politician. So, look, if you want to interrupt the fascists' gaining of power, you've got to figure out how to split the crowd away from them... and that's not going to be done by lumping them all together and condemning them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

Again, not so cut-and-dry:
Germans made two political concessions: It was stipulated that the division shall not be used to fight Western Allies, and would be used exclusively to "fight Bolsheviks". The other concession was in that its oath of allegiance to Hitler was conditional [11] on the fight against Bolshevism and in the fact that Christian (mostly Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and Ukrainian Orthodox) chaplains were integrated into the units and allowed to function (in the Waffen-SS, only the Bosnian division and Sturmbrigade Wallonien had a clerical presence). The latter condition was instituted at the insistence of the division's organizers in order to minimize the risk of Nazi demoralization amongst the soldiers.[12][page needed] Indeed, Nazi indoctrination was absent within the division.

Not, ideologically, fascists. Conservative nationalists.

In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Human beings generally have rational motivations, even if they are often unfortunately selfish, short-sighted, or otherwise imperfect. Very, very few people are truly evil.


zimbomba63
Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too? So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides.

It's Eastern Europe, so... basically.
2014-02-19 10:05:18 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.


(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)
2014-02-19 09:49:19 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.


History is complicated.  You're acting as if everything exists in a vacuum and that division came about because Ukrainians wanted to get their Nazi on.  It's not as if the Soviets had tried to genocide them for not being properly subservient ten years earlier, and it's not as if they were jumping at any chance to escape that regime.  Oh.  Wait.

You put people in a horrible situation with unthinkable options, they're going to take any chance that looks to be even a little better to try and get out.  Yes, the Nazis were bad.  But so were the Soviets.

/regardless, that division was never accused of any war crimes, and was in fact cleared of them as a unit.  It's not as if we're talking about the 5th Concentration Camp Guard division, here.
2014-02-19 09:28:03 PM
1 votes:

tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945

Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms


Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...
2014-02-19 09:14:55 PM
1 votes:

tinfoil-hat maggie: flexflint: tinfoil-hat maggie: NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.

Thy got the "artillery" when the army backed down and left the city instead of fighting probably why that guy got sacked.

No, that's not "probably why that guy got sacked" ... .

Well thanks for explaining thing to me...


http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-f eb -19-live-updates-337098.html
"Head of the armed forces Volodymyr Zamana near Kyiv Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych replaced Zamana on Feb. 19 after announcing a new "anti-terror" operation in response to the country's deadliest violence since its post-Soviet independence. Zamana was known to have publically disagreed with Yanukovych at the start of the month when the embattled Ukrainian leader first considered imposing a state of emergency in response to the wave of pro-EU protests gripping Kiev and other parts of the country."

He wasn't the first to openly question Yanu's decisions, and if things deteriorate, he certainly won't be the last.
2014-02-19 09:07:15 PM
1 votes:
Farmed Over, have a read here. This showed up on my FB feed

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-a n d-ukraine/
2014-02-19 05:32:27 PM
1 votes:

Farkin' Uke: The weapon is called a булава (boolava)


Thanks for the info, much appreciated! In my language, it's called a "goedendag", literally: a "goodday" :).
2014-02-19 05:23:24 PM
1 votes:
Solidarity fires in Vilnius, Lithuania (use Google Translate; you used to be able to directly link to the translated page, but that doesn't work anymore, don't know why, sorry). Apparently it was broadcast live on the big screen at Maidan. (very dusty in here)

/traylor and zerkalo: thanks! ;)
2014-02-19 05:22:56 PM
1 votes:

flexflint: [farm4.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

That's a good find especially if you're in a corrupt police office that you've just taken over.

/(I just recognize the emblem, I don't know what the text means)


The weapon is called a булава (boolava) and it's now an ornamental mace but it was used in the region back in the day (particularly nasty as the spikes would break off in the head or face of your opponent if you were using a wooden one).  I brought one back for my buddy from my trip as he had just bought his first place and I gave it to him as his first "security system" :D

Where they are sitting is the Prosecutor's Office of Ternopyl Oblast in Western Ukraine
2014-02-19 05:07:11 PM
1 votes:
farm4.staticflickr.com

That's a good find especially if you're in a corrupt police office that you've just taken over.

/(I just recognize the emblem, I don't know what the text means)
2014-02-19 04:14:19 PM
1 votes:

Philibuster: ahhh slava natsiya, nm


Sorry, I missed this comment, but this translation is "Glory (to the) Nation"
2014-02-19 04:06:52 PM
1 votes:
2014-02-19 04:05:13 PM
1 votes:
ahhh slava natsiya, nm
2014-02-19 03:14:45 PM
1 votes:
Dear Ukraine,

Please don't go all Tiananmen Square on your protestors.

Thanks,

R
2014-02-19 03:09:18 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: I'd say that the people that claim the ultra-right groups aren't a vocal, disruptive, violent and influential minority are being disingenuous and not aware of the reality of the situation


Hooray appeals to authority!
2014-02-19 03:00:16 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: NEDM: FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.

Yes, it's the Far Right who is responsible for those government troops machine-gunning a peaceful group in that video posted upthread.

This has been going on for a lot longer than this week.  When the state has been met with violence before, they will respond with violence.  This is just how it is.  I'm not condoning it, it's just how it farking is.


It sure farking sounds like you're condoning it because you don't like the people protesting, despite farking everyone telling you that the NeoNazis aren't even a significant minority in the protests.  And, of course, despite multiple people showing you that the issue has split Ukraine down the middle you're still spouting off how it's "not a popular movement" and "doesn't have the support of the Ukrainians".
2014-02-19 02:58:22 PM
1 votes:
Those that know the difference between right wing and nazi are getting a chuckle over this show of ignorance.

Personally I'll be happy if it winds up as a complete clusterfark that keeps everybody over there busy and leaves us alone
2014-02-19 02:57:55 PM
1 votes:
A Ukrainian reporter was murdered in Kiev today.

FarkedOver:

Will you also claim that the titushki do not exist? It's been very widely reported that the government hires these thugs as both enforcers and to act as agent provocateurs, stirring up violence amidst the protesters.
2014-02-19 02:52:53 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.


Yes, it's the Far Right who is responsible for those government troops machine-gunning a peaceful group in that video posted upthread.
2014-02-19 02:52:23 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.


not to disprove but to share an interpretation.

If you limit your polling to oblast centers, i think, especially in the Ukraine, you can get an obvious  representation of the administrative cities (that are  Russian friendly, that's where the money is).

WHETHER SUPPORT EUROMAYDAN % to the questioned
Yes in total = 44
No in total = 51
found difficult to answer = 5
The maximum level of support of Euromaydan is registered in oblast centers in the West of Ukraine (86%) while 81% of residents of oblast centers of Eastern Ukraine do not support Euromaydan.

apparently has something to do with the history of Ukraine, Russia & newly added western cities & the opposing views of each.

ATTITUDE TO THE FACT THAT IN THE NUMBER OF OBLASTS PROTESTERS CAPTURED / TRIED TO CAPTURE OBLAST STATE ADMINISTRATIONS % to the

positive in total = 32
Negative in total = 60
found difficult to answer = 8
negative attitude to take-over or attempts to capture oblast state administrations by protesters while a third of the questioned have positive attitude to such practice (32%).

this may say more about how people feel about violence and civil unrest in their own backyard.
i don't see this as having anything to do with supporting euromaydan or not, it's a survival instinct. people don't want to kill other people for power.

finally & what i view as most important is the last poll.
WHETHER CIVIL WAR THREATENS UKRAINE % to the questioned
this says to me that most see that civil war is coming (already here?). that is to say they know that the people of Ukraine are not going to sit diddly by why the President sides with Russia over the best interests of the people.

what i'm saing is that the link you provided (to me) doesn't provide a solid answer.

/messy i know.
2014-02-19 02:49:29 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: NEDM: Here's one. Funny, it says the exact opposite of the survey you found.

That's pretty much in agreement with what mine said.  I think it just used different language.

When being asked about their attitude to the Euromaidan, 49.0% of the respondents expressed complete or greater support, while 45.5% oppose Euromaidan (to full or greater degree), the research said.


Yeah, no.
2014-02-19 02:47:27 PM
1 votes:

Further evidence that this is an East Ukraine/West Ukraine conflict:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Uk r aine_elections_map

Will Ukraine end up like Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia?
2014-02-19 02:40:48 PM
1 votes:
From twitter.com/TarasDenysenko

Protesters armed with rocks and Molotovs are storming Poltava regional administration.

Accord.to Udar, one of the protesters who participated in blocking Odessa-Kyiv highway was run over to his death

Ruslana from Maidan stage: "We are all here provocateurs, extremists, terrorists and fascists, didn't you know?"

Party of Regions deputies start to peel away. The first are those elected in majoritarian districts. Link

Turchynov from the stage of Maidan says that city mayor of Zhytomyr has "urgently" withdrawn from the Party of Regions.

Zhytomyr regional administration has been taken by protesters

Ukraine president Yanukovych just fired his army chief. The big question is why. If it was for failing to accept crackdown orders: bad. Bad.

Berkuters in Ternopil pledged their allegiance to the people of Ukraine YouTube Link

Protesters in Lutsk make a corridor for police to leave regional HQ YouTube Link

reports that SBU (national security agency) building in Khmelnitskyi caught fire from Molotovs

Ministry of Defense announced that due to an "anti-terrorist" operation in #Ukraine, military might be involved

"[unknowns] disguised as self-defence were spotted on Kostelna st.;they shoot at protesters"
2014-02-19 02:38:53 PM
1 votes:

hellfrozeover: FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.

Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.


www.interpretermag.com
Linguistic division in Ukraine
2014-02-19 02:38:08 PM
1 votes:

hellfrozeover: FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.

Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.


Well, 75+ years of Russians settling into Ukrainian territory will do that to a country, wouldn't it?

psst: those people in the east aren't Ukrainians.  They're Russians.
2014-02-19 02:29:56 PM
1 votes:
Oleg Vasilenko, a 35-year-old businessman who spoke to The New Times, said that it was the first time ever that he participated in a protest rally. "I don't give a shiat about Yatsenyuk and who will keep on plundering the country in the next five years, the opposition or the government. All I want is for Ukraine to get on the European path of development. And all of my company, that is all the 12 people, came here. And each of us would agree to a second term for Yanukovych, if he signed the agreement," said the businessman.
2014-02-19 02:29:34 PM
1 votes:
You can't have 100K people in the street and just go on with business as usual. This idiot decided he was going to try and weasel his way out of the problem while having his pigs engage in absolutely awful secret police tactics. As that didn't cut it, now he's trying the 'ol "my people are terrorists and I can kill them how I want" gig. I'm so glad the protesters seized a bunch of a guns and ammo. I hope they rebuild their barriers with cop corpses.
2014-02-19 02:19:42 PM
1 votes:

Ned Stark: FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.

As if the "support" of the yahoos on fark means fark all anyway.


Oh I know haha.  The point is a lot of people just have a knee-jerk reaction to automatically back any protest.

Food for thought:

On November 7th 1923 there was a protest where 3,00 people got out into the streets, where they battled with police and military forces all day, where the state had previously banned this groups meetings, all said and done 18 people were killed by police.  Without further info we could mourn the deaths of those people at the brutal hands of the state. We could support the large crowd of people, we could rally behind this protest.  But what if I told you that this protest took place in Munich Germany, that it stood against the government because it believed it was being ran by Jewish traitors, that it was anti-government because these protesters despised democratic government, that it was led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party.  With that context I'm sure that our outlook on this protest would change dramatically.  The point being that in politics context is EVERYTHING.
2014-02-19 02:19:35 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.

Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.  The fact that they want their version of democracy doesn't mean we should support that.  I'd be willing to bet that the protestors don't reflect a national consensus overall either.  You know that, I know that and the world knows that.

This is an attempted right-wing revolution.  I don't support it in any way shape or form.


So then you are commie, thanks for pointing that out.

Tell me oh wise one, if the KKK suddenly came out in support of abortion rights would it alter your view on the subject?
2014-02-19 02:14:16 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.


Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.
2014-02-19 02:13:10 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.


Either way, the current government needs to go and be held accountable.  Free elections are the only option from here.
2014-02-19 01:59:30 PM
1 votes:

the_coach5040: I thought Barry O released a sternly word press release...how is this still happening?


He's just preparing to become an interfering dictating busybody, you know, like in those dreams you have.
2014-02-19 01:55:10 PM
1 votes:

firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.


it's the neo-nazis that have guns in with the protesters. This is a revolution/civil war and the crazies win a lot of times when that happens.
2014-02-19 01:53:12 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.

Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.  The fact that they want their version of democracy doesn't mean we should support that.  I'd be willing to bet that the protestors don't reflect a national consensus overall either.  You know that, I know that and the world knows that.

This is an attempted right-wing revolution.  I don't support it in any way shape or form.


So, better they should live under the iron fist of Putin and his puppets...

That's kind of the crux of your position of never supporting anything other than the ideal, you'll never get anything relatively better because you're so married to idealism that you can't objectively see that even as right-wing, it would be better for the Ukraine to at least govern itself, rather than continue under the Putin regime. I'm sure it's just coincidence that the protests started after the EU veto by the president, and also coincidence that they stepped up after the recent loan guarantee by Putin. If all was as you say, and they were just neo-nazis, they would be as supportive of the Putin regime as the other neo-nazi groups that Putin tacitly supports throughout Russia.
2014-02-19 01:49:36 PM
1 votes:
Here is an example of your "restraint".  Warning, NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipJOV01Pr4">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=DipJOV01Pr4

This is from Khmelnytskyi filmed earlier today
2014-02-19 01:47:12 PM
1 votes:
I don't get these protestors.  Don't they want to live under the glory of Putin's puppet regime? Why would they want to join a bunch of eurohomo countries that are scared of Saddam Hussein when they could have their lives dictated by a STRONG leader that loves the church, doesn't put up with homosexuals, and engages in the pursuits of REAL men.

watchmen-news.com

While Obama parents and plays golf, Putin engages in manly photoshoots.  That's the leader America needs.  My gun club agrees.
2014-02-19 01:46:20 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: NEDM: So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?

No.  This has been the most reactionary and violent group of protestors.  These are the people promoting the violence.


Yeeeaaaaah....I think that the Berkut's attempt to storm the barricades last night had a big hand in starting this.
2014-02-19 01:43:11 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


Spoiler alert:  NeoNazis drink water and breathe air too.

So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?
2014-02-19 01:41:38 PM
1 votes:

Twilight Farkle: BBC reporting armed forces head Gen. Volodymyr Zamana has been dismissed. Replacement is Adm. Yuriy Ilyin. EU pondering sanctions.


That is scary.  Only reason to do this would be to put someone in who has no problem moving against the protesters.  If this happens, I'd expect at least some factions to break apart and support the protesters leading to a serious escalation.  I expect they would only mobilize from the East though, there were tanks on the way in December too, not sure what happened but they never made it to Kyiv.
2014-02-19 01:40:30 PM
1 votes:
Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.
2014-02-19 01:34:58 PM
1 votes:
I gotta say, as much of a mess as this is, with the loss of life already incurred, with the loss of life that is sure to happen in the future, with the stamping out of human rights, etc., etc., I am just fine with sitting on the sidelines.
2014-02-19 01:34:44 PM
1 votes:

TheShavingofOccam123: It's Europe versus Russia. Almost the Cold War battle our countries all longed for but now it's satellite conflict. I'm betting on Russia. It looks like Europe won't gain a toe-hold in Asia.


It's NOT Europe vs Russia. Western media is trying to push this BS (because SCARY), but if you ask a Ukrainian then it's Ukrainians vs their corrupt leaders who placed themselves above the laws.
2014-02-19 01:32:11 PM
1 votes:

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: Short threadjack:

Hey, all you guys out there who whined about the U.S. being just as bad, or worse than Russia when you had to go stand in a fenced-in area to protest the Republican/Democratic convention?  Yeah, go fark yourselves.

Threadjack over.


Ahh, there's always one in every thread.
2014-02-19 01:30:43 PM
1 votes:
It's Europe versus Russia. Almost the Cold War battle our countries all longed for but now it's satellite conflict. I'm betting on Russia. It looks like Europe won't gain a toe-hold in Asia.
2014-02-19 01:27:50 PM
1 votes:
European people's problems
2014-02-19 01:26:11 PM
1 votes:

DetrimentalScience: He also just sacked the head of the army. Rumors are because the army chief refused to crack down on protestors. This is going to get MUCH MUCH worse soon. He has the tacit approval of Russia and the west is too weak to step in. The crackdown coming soon will be quick and brutal and as a human being it saddens me to no end.


Well, he's alright as long as the line troops and cops are willing to crack heads, and he can find a general or two to give the orders.  The Russians don't mind, and while the west may talk, and no one is going to do anything more than some sanctions.  Things don't get really dicey in a country like that until the cops and combat troops turn on the government, and it doesn't look like they will for the moment.
2014-02-19 01:25:08 PM
1 votes:

DetrimentalScience: He also just sacked the head of the army. Rumors are because the army chief refused to crack down on protestors. This is going to get MUCH MUCH worse soon. He has the tacit approval of Russia and the west is too weak to step in. The crackdown coming soon will be quick and brutal and as a human being it saddens me to no end.


Yup.  I hate to think about it, but it really sounds like they'll be sending in the tanks next.  We could be looking at a very large massacre tomorrow.
2014-02-19 01:24:15 PM
1 votes:

Isitoveryet: DetrimentalScience: and the west is too weak to step in

don't you think the EU should step in WAY before the U.S. starts knocking down fences to invade someones back yard?


Usually the EU is considered part of the west; not just the USA. Where it gets murky is the former eastern bloc states that are now part of the EU.

Also, was just reading he declared the protests terrorists and under anti-terrorist law the enforcers have carte blanche to do what they wish. Arrest people without reason, invade homes, use force, use the military to supress rebellion etc.
2014-02-19 01:19:38 PM
1 votes:
They should just have a boxing match for the presidency.
2014-02-19 01:19:30 PM
1 votes:
What the hell, Ukraine?  You used to be cool.
2014-02-19 11:56:01 AM
1 votes:
img.fark.net

From yesterday's thread.
2014-02-19 09:55:34 AM
1 votes:
i.imgur.com
2014-02-19 09:43:28 AM
1 votes:
This is turning into a nightmare. :-(
 
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