Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(CNN)   After yesterday's bloodshed, Ukrainian president Yanukovych decides to dial back the rhetoric and become a voice of reason. Just kidding, he orders protesters to "disassociate themselves" from each other or be considered enemies of the state   (cnn.com) divider line 337
    More: Followup, President Viktor Yanukovych, Ukrainian President, Ukrainian, enemy of the state, moral support, Government of Ukraine, Catherine Ashton, Independence Square  
•       •       •

2145 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Feb 2014 at 1:14 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



337 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all
 
2014-02-19 09:28:03 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945

Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms


Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...
 
2014-02-19 09:29:05 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.


Where did he say that? Are you mental?
 
2014-02-19 09:29:08 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.


No, I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly you're trying to say/accomplish other than shiatting on my posts without actually backing shiat up.  That's all.
 
2014-02-19 09:36:40 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: [snip]

Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...


That's ... beautiful. Also:

"The idea of creating a distinctly Ukrainian military force came to fruition soon after the outbreak of the German-Soviet war and was widely supported by the Ukrainian population in Western Ukraine. In the spring of 1943 it was reinforced by the viewpoint that the Ukrainians urgently needed to establish a nucleus of Ukrainian power, and to build it up by whatever means possible, before the Nazi collapse. It was argued that only if and when Ukrainians become a power factor, could they expect recognition from the Western powers."

That's ... interesting.
 
2014-02-19 09:38:08 PM  

iq_in_binary: Technically, maggie, they're not protesters. They're the new state's defense forces.

They were protesters for MONTHS. Peacefully, at that, until people started disappearing, women started getting raped, and protesters started getting shot.

Nonviolent protest refers to both sides of the equation. Once the state starts getting violent, it's a good idea for the people to start getting violent right back.


Okay look I know this crap has been going for months. I don't think either side has been peaceful. Occupy Wall Street got clobbered because that didn't stock up on Molotov cocktails
APC getting molotoved but really we all wanna act shocked at mean old governments but the fact is if NAFTA (or any other US trade deal) got killed and people acted like this they would be in a world of shiat.
 
2014-02-19 09:38:29 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945

Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms

Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...


Especially knowing they would be killed once the soviets advanced, regardless of what they did. Don't fight, you die as a coward or deserter or fight and get killed for being a traitor. Oh, and your family too.
 
2014-02-19 09:39:36 PM  
In this thread people are defending an SS division.
 
2014-02-19 09:41:48 PM  
It would appear that my entire post got borked, so I'll try my best to recreate it but regarding FarkedOver's assertions that this is an entirely rightwing Neo Nazi movement, I have not seen one poster claim that there is no trace of the vile Nazis whatsoever in Ukraine.  Like most European countries, yes, this scum does exist and it does have a slight minority control.  Why you are being belittled is because your argument holds as much water as some European claiming that The United States is A Tea Party Nation.  Of course, I would prefer that someone use one of their three genie wishes to blink those assholes out of existence, but in some bizarro turn of events, you believe the burden of proof to be on the protester supporters to provide evidence to the contrary of your baseless claim that the whole crowd is Svoboda.  Furthermore, I have seen no indication that you or Maggie are aware that Свобода (Svoboda) is NOT just a proper name.  You may be conflating the party with the word itself.  Свобода directly translates to "freedom" so it may very well be that every time any protester is talking about the noun freedom, you get to stroke your chin and sagely nod, "Ah, yes, Neo Nazis"....
 
2014-02-19 09:44:08 PM  

Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver's assertions that this is an entirely rightwing Neo Nazi movement,


Never said that. You premise from the get go is flawed.  But I would love for you to keep telling me about the heroics of the SS.
 
2014-02-19 09:46:06 PM  
Uke, read the link I included above. Good article to the discussion going on now
 
2014-02-19 09:46:13 PM  

FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.


Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...
 
2014-02-19 09:48:01 PM  

FarkedOver: zimbomba63: So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis? Now be very clear, this is what you are saying? Oh yeah, citation please!

I have absolutely zero problem with anyone who killed or imprisoned nazis or their collaborators in the aftermath of WW2.


But you said,

"I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine."

So the Soviets "...prosecuted ZERO people for warm(sic) crimes that occurred during WW2.." that were "...committed by the Nazi war machine."  German Nazis, Ukrainian collaborators, nobody got punished, ZERO.  That's what your saying?  Man, I never knew that the Soviets were such "forgive and forget" guys.
You learn something knew every day.
 
2014-02-19 09:49:19 PM  

FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.


History is complicated.  You're acting as if everything exists in a vacuum and that division came about because Ukrainians wanted to get their Nazi on.  It's not as if the Soviets had tried to genocide them for not being properly subservient ten years earlier, and it's not as if they were jumping at any chance to escape that regime.  Oh.  Wait.

You put people in a horrible situation with unthinkable options, they're going to take any chance that looks to be even a little better to try and get out.  Yes, the Nazis were bad.  But so were the Soviets.

/regardless, that division was never accused of any war crimes, and was in fact cleared of them as a unit.  It's not as if we're talking about the 5th Concentration Camp Guard division, here.
 
2014-02-19 09:49:44 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.

It's sorta funny Marx is sorta like Jesus everyone feel strongly one way or another about what they said but so few people ever bothered to read or follow what was actually said.

/Now I'm gonna get flamed.

You're entering a world of hurt.... I'm sorry :(

Meh nothin' better to do : )

[www.interpretermag.com image 620x382]
img.fark.net
"Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.


Meh. I have to post my comment in this thread too.

85 mm divisional gun D-44

img.fark.net

It took me a while to find it. These guns were produced between 1945-1953. I doubt that they are used anywhere today, these type of guns were replaced by self-propelled guns a long ago. Maybe similar towed guns are used in Best Korea?

I guess they were towed there form a military museum. Even if you have the proper ammunition, they are not easy to fire. They have the stopping power of scrap metal of similar weight.

And BTW, those guns are field artillery guns, not antitank guns.
 
2014-02-19 09:51:47 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver's assertions that this is an entirely rightwing Neo Nazi movement,

Never said that. You premise from the get go is flawed.  But I would love for you to keep telling me about the heroics of the SS.


Again, you are looking at it as fighting WITH someone as opposed to fighting AGAINST someone else.  In your opinion, they should have taken up arms for Stalin and that would have been "The Noble Cause".  It's no biggie that The Holodomor* just happened in 1932-33....

*Since you seem unaware of this event AT ALL, I won't even bother replying to you anymore as you do not seem to have even the basest foundation for holding a conversation on this topic
 
2014-02-19 09:52:48 PM  

zimbomba63: So the Soviets "...prosecuted ZERO people for warm(sic) crimes that occurred during WW2.." that were "...committed by the Nazi war machine." German Nazis, Ukrainian collaborators, nobody got punished, ZERO. That's what your saying? Man, I never knew that the Soviets were such "forgive and forget" guys.
You learn something knew every day.


Just because I'm a Marxist doesn't mean I will defend every single action of the USSR.  The history between the Russian Soviet Republic and the Ukrainian Soviet Republic isn't something we can really delve into and have meaningful dialogue about in this fark thread.  Especially with you, considering your hostile stance toward everything I've said.
 
2014-02-19 09:55:06 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945

Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms

Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...


Oh please you self righteous ninny.I know the history you misogynist prick The Uks originally tought the Germans were there saviors from Stalin. Yea, Stalin's whole co-op farm thing farked everything.Millions starved or were killed becuase they wouldn't go with the new progrom.

Nazi tanks roll in mos Uks are happy that the Russ are losing. Well most of them were supportive till one sniper could get a village wiped out. Though still want to pretend none of that happened that old men are marching around in old SS uniforms this thing is still backed by the Ortho church so do you think they support gay marriage any more that the Russians? Do you think Uks over there a any less prejudiced the blacks over there?

Other than some translations I haven't seen any fact from you.
/Just sayin'
 
2014-02-19 09:55:27 PM  

Farkin' Uke: Again, you are looking at it as fighting WITH someone as opposed to fighting AGAINST someone else. In your opinion, they should have taken up arms for Stalin and that would have been "The Noble Cause". It's no biggie that The Holodomor* just happened in 1932-33....

*Since you seem unaware of this event AT ALL, I won't even bother replying to you anymore as you do not seem to have even the basest foundation for holding a conversation on this topic


I'm not going to defend Stalin's failed collectivization policies that meant the death of millions of Ukrainians.  I'm not a Stalinist :)
 
2014-02-19 10:00:07 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: Again, you are looking at it as fighting WITH someone as opposed to fighting AGAINST someone else. In your opinion, they should have taken up arms for Stalin and that would have been "The Noble Cause". It's no biggie that The Holodomor* just happened in 1932-33....

*Since you seem unaware of this event AT ALL, I won't even bother replying to you anymore as you do not seem to have even the basest foundation for holding a conversation on this topic

I'm not going to defend Stalin's failed collectivization policies that meant the death of millions of Ukrainians.  I'm not a Stalinist :)


As an addendum, I would suggest that if the Russian Soviets had left the Ukrainian black army lead by Makhno alone, I think socialism could have a more positive and profound impact in Ukraine.

/Don't let Ran Domino see this ;)
 
2014-02-19 10:02:09 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg

So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis?  Now be very clear, this is what you are saying?  Oh yeah, citation please!

Yea man that's why East Germany had no Germans left alive once the Soviets got there.

/Moran.


Ah, I love to engage in a battle of wits with a worthy opponent.  So, you find it unusual that the Soviets dealt with internal collaborators and anti-Soviet factions in a different manner, than captured foreign populations?  Have you read any books on Soviet history?  And I don't mean the ones that come with pictures to color.
 
2014-02-19 10:02:40 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: Again, you are looking at it as fighting WITH someone as opposed to fighting AGAINST someone else. In your opinion, they should have taken up arms for Stalin and that would have been "The Noble Cause". It's no biggie that The Holodomor* just happened in 1932-33....

*Since you seem unaware of this event AT ALL, I won't even bother replying to you anymore as you do not seem to have even the basest foundation for holding a conversation on this topic

I'm not going to defend Stalin's failed collectivization policies that meant the death of millions of Ukrainians.  I'm not a Stalinist :)


Also look into the atrocities carried out by the soviets in Ukraine as they retreated from the German advance. My grandfathers name is on a museum plaque as a result. This was well before any type of collaboration.
 
2014-02-19 10:03:13 PM  

Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...


What was the point again?Just for clarity

Farkin' Uke: Svoboda


Nope Nazis in Ukraine
 
2014-02-19 10:05:18 PM  

FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.


(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)
 
2014-02-19 10:06:19 PM  

zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg

So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis?  Now be very clear, this is what you are saying?  Oh yeah, citation please!

Yea man that's why East Germany had no Germans left alive once the Soviets got there.

/Moran.

Ah, I love to engage in a battle of wits with a worthy opponent.  So, you find it unusual that the Soviets dealt with internal collaborators and anti-Soviet factions in a different manner, than captured foreign populations?  Have you read any books on Soviet history?  And I don't mean the ones that come with pictures to color.


Oh, you are cute I'm gonna play with you.
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2014-02-19 10:07:52 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)


(cough) Hugonaughts (cough)
 
2014-02-19 10:08:09 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945

Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms

Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...

Oh please you self righteous ninny.I know the history you misogynist prick The Uks originally tought the Germans were there saviors from Stalin. Yea, Stalin's whole co-op farm thing farked everything.Millions starved or were killed becuase they wouldn't go with the new progrom.

Nazi tanks roll in mos Uks are happy that the Russ are losing. Well most of them were supportive till one sniper could get a village wiped out. Though still want to pretend none of that happened that old men are marching around in old SS uniforms this thing is still backed by the Ortho church so do you think they support gay marriage any more that the Russians? Do you think Uks over there a any less prejudiced the blacks over there?

Other than some translations I haven't seen any fact from you.
/Just sayin'


Misogynist? So...you don't seem to have a strong command of the English language either, let alone the Ukrainian language...

What on Earth are you misreading that you perceived any slight against women in my post?

Then you started reinforcing my point by suddenly remembering this history that I just told you.

Then you start talking about other unrelated issues which I haven't addressed at all.

Yeah, I think we're done here.  You just keep drinkin' n farkin', because I haven't presented any facts except for the history lesson and word translations that you seemed to be ignorant of on both counts.  You done showed me!
 
2014-02-19 10:10:03 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)


Actually Lenin didn't think it was the right time for Revolution.  The masses dictated change.  If the Lenin was an opportunist by offering an end to the WWI I guess he was a mean old opportunist.

I would say the western powers were the opportunists because after the revolution many allied nations that invaded (the U.S. included).  I will also mention that the Ukrainian Soviet Republic fought against this invasion.  The Russian revolution was the VERY definition of a popular movement.  Not opportunistic.  Unless of course you think feudalism is a-ok.
 
2014-02-19 10:13:47 PM  
Also zimbomba63 would you like to give me a reading list Most of the stuff I've been into lately goes back to the Tsars and well it's been awhile since I read anything on the Red revolution or Stalin. I'm old and not sure ho good my memory is.
 
2014-02-19 10:14:30 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...

What was the point again?Just for clarityFarkin' Uke: Svoboda

Nope Nazis in Ukraine


I know that being fluent in a language doesn't match a vague point from a linked GIS, but again, "Свобода" is not just a Proper Name;  It is a word and it has a definition (that is "freedom", much like every asshole tinpot dictatorship in Africa is the Democratic People's Republic of something or other).  It was just a guess that you were conflating any mention of this word with Neo Nazis.  You could be wrong for any number of other reasons as well
 
2014-02-19 10:18:17 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...

What was the point again?Just for clarityFarkin' Uke: Svoboda

Nope Nazis in Ukraine

I know that being fluent in a language doesn't match a vague point from a linked GIS, but again, "Свобода" is not just a Proper Name;  It is a word and it has a definition (that is "freedom", much like every asshole tinpot dictatorship in Africa is the Democratic People's Republic of something or other).  It was just a guess that you were conflating any mention of this word with Neo Nazis.  You could be wrong for any number of other reasons as well


I've been reading a lot of Ukrainian anarchists writings on the protests.  The chants and the slogans is a common theme that is brought up by these anarchists.  They are stating that they are vague and that it's more sloganeering, rather than having any actual substance.

/we may have gotten off on the wrong foot, but I was hoping you might be able to elaborate on that or confirm that considering your background.
 
2014-02-19 10:21:48 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...

What was the point again?Just for clarityFarkin' Uke: Svoboda

Nope Nazis in Ukraine

I know that being fluent in a language doesn't match a vague point from a linked GIS, but again, "Свобода" is not just a Proper Name;  It is a word and it has a definition (that is "freedom", much like every asshole tinpot dictatorship in Africa is the Democratic People's Republic of something or other).  It was just a guess that you were conflating any mention of this word with Neo Nazis.  You could be wrong for any number of other reasons as well

I've been reading a lot of Ukrainian anarchists writings on the protests.  The chants and the slogans is a common theme that is brought up by these anarchists.  They are stating that they are vague and that it's more sloganeering, rather than having any actual substance.

/we may have gotten off on the wrong foot, but I was hoping you might be able to elaborate on that or confirm that considering your background.


That's fair enough and I'm more than willing to start fresh.  I usually lurk and rarely post but I figured I'd be able to help people out with this topic.  I'll gladly talk about any slogans or anything you'd like.  Do you have any specific chants or slogans you want me to translate?
 
2014-02-19 10:23:06 PM  
FarkedOver
Rann, I agree with you 9 times out of 10. I can only assume you've been reading the anarchist perspective coming out of Ukraine. I know I have, and I know the intimidation from the right amongst the protesters is cause for concern. This is something anarchists and communists would unite on.

This is basically what we're going on.
In practice, it means eating popcorn while watching videos of cops being beaten and immolated.

As for Svoboda, it's not as simple as saying they're fascists. A lot of the right-wing nationalism, especially centered on Lviv, seems to have ancestry with the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, the military wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which fought against both the Communists and the Nazis. Their red-and-black flag was initially pretty confusing for a lot of anarchists, but I think for the most part everyone's been straightened out.

Anyway, it's FAR more complicated than "THEY'RE NAZIIIIISSSS!!!!!" and engaging the ENTIRE population of protesters as equivalent to a small fraction is hardly productive. The vast majority of people in any group are non-ideological. Even if they fight on the side of fascists, they might not realize it unless said fascists are waving around straight-arm salutes and goose-steppingm, and probably not even then. If the fascists are just saying "Our country is the best!" (which in Ukrainian is apparently "Slava Ukraini") and waving the flag and so on, they're hardly distinguishable from any politician. So, look, if you want to interrupt the fascists' gaining of power, you've got to figure out how to split the crowd away from them... and that's not going to be done by lumping them all together and condemning them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

Again, not so cut-and-dry:
Germans made two political concessions: It was stipulated that the division shall not be used to fight Western Allies, and would be used exclusively to "fight Bolsheviks". The other concession was in that its oath of allegiance to Hitler was conditional [11] on the fight against Bolshevism and in the fact that Christian (mostly Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and Ukrainian Orthodox) chaplains were integrated into the units and allowed to function (in the Waffen-SS, only the Bosnian division and Sturmbrigade Wallonien had a clerical presence). The latter condition was instituted at the insistence of the division's organizers in order to minimize the risk of Nazi demoralization amongst the soldiers.[12][page needed] Indeed, Nazi indoctrination was absent within the division.

Not, ideologically, fascists. Conservative nationalists.

In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Human beings generally have rational motivations, even if they are often unfortunately selfish, short-sighted, or otherwise imperfect. Very, very few people are truly evil.


zimbomba63
Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too? So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides.

It's Eastern Europe, so... basically.
 
2014-02-19 10:24:12 PM  

Farkin' Uke: That's fair enough and I'm more than willing to start fresh. I usually lurk and rarely post but I figured I'd be able to help people out with this topic. I'll gladly talk about any slogans or anything you'd like. Do you have any specific chants or slogans you want me to translate?


They were already mostly translated (poorly).  I need to find the link.  It was a rather interesting read.  The fact of the matter is if you want a real leftist perspective from the situation in Ukraine (or Russia for that matter) you don't go reading what the Communist Parties of those respective countries puts out, because it is complete garbage.  Let me try to find the link again.
 
2014-02-19 10:25:42 PM  

Farkin' Uke: Misogynist? So...you don't seem to have a strong command of the English language either, let alone the Ukrainian language...


I thick I bolded that part and yea were done here.

You're translations have been appreciated but you're commentary is silly and lacking in fact
 
2014-02-19 10:26:12 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...

What was the point again?Just for clarityFarkin' Uke: Svoboda

Nope Nazis in Ukraine

I know that being fluent in a language doesn't match a vague point from a linked GIS, but again, "Свобода" is not just a Proper Name;  It is a word and it has a definition (that is "freedom", much like every asshole tinpot dictatorship in Africa is the Democratic People's Republic of something or other).  It was just a guess that you were conflating any mention of this word with Neo Nazis.  You could be wrong for any number of other reasons as well

I've been reading a lot of Ukrainian anarchists writings on the protests.  The chants and the slogans is a common theme that is brought up by these anarchists.  They are stating that they are vague and that it's more sloganeering, rather than having any actual substance.

/we may have gotten off on the wrong foot, but I was hoping you might be able to elaborate on that or confirm that considering your background.


Any specific links?

Most of the stuff I've heard and read has been inclusive, even to those that were fighting against them. Admittedly, that tone has changed since yesterday, but the anger is directed at the titushky and Berkut specifically
 
2014-02-19 10:26:19 PM  
If I shiat on the CP any more in this thread Ran is going to think I'm joining the A Team.
 
2014-02-19 10:29:22 PM  

danzak: Most of the stuff I've heard and read has been inclusive, even to those that were fighting against them. Admittedly, that tone has changed since yesterday, but the anger is directed at the titushky and Berkut specifically


That's the farking truth.  This situation went from bad to worse to bad to truce.  The opinions are changing every farking second from every corner.
 
2014-02-19 10:31:46 PM  
That's better : )
 
2014-02-19 10:32:20 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.

Where did he say that? Are you mental


Don't really know what's going on, do you.  It was of those connect the dots things.  You seem to missing a few dots.
 
2014-02-19 10:32:38 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: Misogynist? So...you don't seem to have a strong command of the English language either, let alone the Ukrainian language...

I thick I bolded that part and yea were done here.

You're translations have been appreciated but you're commentary is silly and lacking in fact


"Cluck your tongue"??  You think men can't cluck their tongues?  This, coupled with the pathetic state of the rest of your post, has most definitely verified for everyone reading that your English isn't so hot.

Maybe it's time for you to sleep it off.
 
2014-02-19 10:32:53 PM  
There are so many people on TFD that are going to farking hate you for this lol
 
2014-02-19 10:35:42 PM  
FarkedOver
As an addendum, I would suggest that if the Russian Soviets had left the Ukrainian black army lead by Makhno alone, I think socialism could have a more positive and profound impact in Ukraine.

2.bp.blogspot.com

/Don't let Ran Domino see this ;)

In truth, I'm used to M-Ls with inconsistent positions toward Anarchists. Every single one seems to have a different opinion toward the Ukrainian Black Army, Kronstadt, the raids of the Moscow Federation, each of the individual peasant rebellions... And then we can talk about Spain...


annndd Thanks tinfoil-hat maggie!
 
2014-02-19 10:36:13 PM  

RanDomino: FarkedOver
Rann, I agree with you 9 times out of 10. I can only assume you've been reading the anarchist perspective coming out of Ukraine. I know I have, and I know the intimidation from the right amongst the protesters is cause for concern. This is something anarchists and communists would unite on.

This is basically what we're going on.
In practice, it means eating popcorn while watching videos of cops being beaten and immolated.

As for Svoboda, it's not as simple as saying they're fascists. A lot of the right-wing nationalism, especially centered on Lviv, seems to have ancestry with the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, the military wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which fought against both the Communists and the Nazis. Their red-and-black flag was initially pretty confusing for a lot of anarchists, but I think for the most part everyone's been straightened out.

Anyway, it's FAR more complicated than "THEY'RE NAZIIIIISSSS!!!!!" and engaging the ENTIRE population of protesters as equivalent to a small fraction is hardly productive. The vast majority of people in any group are non-ideological. Even if they fight on the side of fascists, they might not realize it unless said fascists are waving around straight-arm salutes and goose-steppingm, and probably not even then. If the fascists are just saying "Our country is the best!" (which in Ukrainian is apparently "Slava Ukraini") and waving the flag and so on, they're hardly distinguishable from any politician. So, look, if you want to interrupt the fascists' gaining of power, you've got to figure out how to split the crowd away from them... and that's not going to be done by lumping them all together and condemning them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

Again, not so cut-and-dry:
Germans made two political concessions: It was stipulated that the division shall not be used to fight Western Allies, and would be used exclusively to "figh ...


Much obliged for elegantly expounding on some of my points.  As for "Slava Ukrayini" and the retort "Heroyim Slava" they literally mean "Glory to Ukraine" and "Heroes Glory".  They most certainly do not "belong" to one group or another, are as old as the hills, and are as innocuous as "God Bless America" or anything else to that effect.
 
2014-02-19 10:37:12 PM  

RanDomino: In truth, I'm used to M-Ls with inconsistent positions toward Anarchists. Every single one seems to have a different opinion toward the Ukrainian Black Army, Kronstadt, the raids of the Moscow Federation, each of the individual peasant rebellions... And then we can talk about Spain...


You know I'm with you on Spain too.... lol

..... am I.... an anarchist?
 
2014-02-19 10:38:04 PM  
I'm watching the YT feed from Espreso TV.

Someone is singing out there in the darkness at this moment.

It sounds terribly sad.
 
2014-02-19 10:41:25 PM  

FarkedOver: zimbomba63: So the Soviets "...prosecuted ZERO people for warm(sic) crimes that occurred during WW2.." that were "...committed by the Nazi war machine." German Nazis, Ukrainian collaborators, nobody got punished, ZERO. That's what your saying? Man, I never knew that the Soviets were such "forgive and forget" guys.
You learn something knew every day.

Just because I'm a Marxist doesn't mean I will defend every single action of the USSR.  The history between the Russian Soviet Republic and the Ukrainian Soviet Republic isn't something we can really delve into and have meaningful dialogue about in this fark thread.  Especially with you, considering your hostile stance toward everything I've said.


When I think you are spouting bullshiat, expect to be called on it.  I expect to be challenged if I don't know what I'm talking about.  Fark is a two-way street.
 
2014-02-19 10:41:34 PM  
FarkedOver
You know I'm with you on Spain too.... lol

..... am I.... an anarchist?


It's okay! Marxism is a dialectical intermediary phase on the path to Anarchism.
 
2014-02-19 10:41:40 PM  

zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.

Where did he say that? Are you mental

Don't really know what's going on, do you.  It was of those connect the dots things.  You seem to missing a few dots.


Sure, actually I do and it very well could end up in a new world war. Do you know why the Russians signed a treaty of alliance with France, back in the day? Do you understand the history of the Tsar taking Ukraine the Crimea etc ....Sorry doesn't mater what the Uks believe Russia will win on this. Or we hop into ww3 or 4 or 5 depending on who you listen too.
 
2014-02-19 10:44:12 PM  
Hey, I think Angry Speech Dude has returned.
 
2014-02-19 10:45:29 PM  

RanDomino: FarkedOver
You know I'm with you on Spain too.... lol

..... am I.... an anarchist?

It's okay! Marxism is a dialectical intermediary phase on the path to Anarchism.


I really like Marx's critique of capitalism though.... can I keep that?
 
Displayed 50 of 337 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report