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(CNN)   After yesterday's bloodshed, Ukrainian president Yanukovych decides to dial back the rhetoric and become a voice of reason. Just kidding, he orders protesters to "disassociate themselves" from each other or be considered enemies of the state   (cnn.com) divider line 337
    More: Followup, President Viktor Yanukovych, Ukrainian President, Ukrainian, enemy of the state, moral support, Government of Ukraine, Catherine Ashton, Independence Square  
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2149 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Feb 2014 at 1:14 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-19 09:43:28 AM  
This is turning into a nightmare. :-(
 
2014-02-19 09:55:34 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-19 11:56:01 AM  
img.fark.net

From yesterday's thread.
 
2014-02-19 12:01:36 PM  
Sooo, not going to be visiting the Ukraine anytime soon. Cross that off my list. At least Italy and Spain haven't rioted yet.
 
2014-02-19 12:30:54 PM  
1.bp.blogspot.com

Rave on!
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-19 12:41:52 PM  
He used to be much cooler.

static.tvtropes.org
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-02-19 12:46:27 PM  
I know where he can get some advice for handling the situation!

news.bbcimg.co.uk
 
2014-02-19 01:17:41 PM  
www.roitov.com
 
2014-02-19 01:17:46 PM  

vpb: I know where he can get some advice for handling the situation!

[news.bbcimg.co.uk image 304x171]


Hang on, are you implying something?
 
2014-02-19 01:18:41 PM  
He also just sacked the head of the army. Rumors are because the army chief refused to crack down on protestors. This is going to get MUCH MUCH worse soon. He has the tacit approval of Russia and the west is too weak to step in. The crackdown coming soon will be quick and brutal and as a human being it saddens me to no end.
 
2014-02-19 01:19:30 PM  
What the hell, Ukraine?  You used to be cool.
 
2014-02-19 01:19:38 PM  
They should just have a boxing match for the presidency.
 
2014-02-19 01:20:14 PM  

Captain Steroid: This is turning into a nightmare. :-(


I think it's been one for a while.
 
2014-02-19 01:20:21 PM  

DetrimentalScience: and the west is too weak to step in


don't you think the EU should step in WAY before the U.S. starts knocking down fences to invade someones back yard?
 
2014-02-19 01:20:40 PM  
Very troubling developments.
 
2014-02-19 01:21:17 PM  
I thought Barry O released a sternly word press release...how is this still happening?
 
2014-02-19 01:22:47 PM  

vpb: He used to be much cooler.


*shakes tiny fist*

/those were the good old days
 
2014-02-19 01:24:10 PM  
John Kerry: "President Yanokovich has the opportunity to make a choice, a choice between protecting the people that he serves -- all of the people -- and the choice for compromise and dialogue versus violence and mayhem,"

This sounds familiar.
Like we might agitate until Ukraine is forced deeper into bed with Putin, then decide international interests are served and go back to watching scripted-reality shows.
 
2014-02-19 01:24:15 PM  

Isitoveryet: DetrimentalScience: and the west is too weak to step in

don't you think the EU should step in WAY before the U.S. starts knocking down fences to invade someones back yard?


Usually the EU is considered part of the west; not just the USA. Where it gets murky is the former eastern bloc states that are now part of the EU.

Also, was just reading he declared the protests terrorists and under anti-terrorist law the enforcers have carte blanche to do what they wish. Arrest people without reason, invade homes, use force, use the military to supress rebellion etc.
 
2014-02-19 01:25:08 PM  

DetrimentalScience: He also just sacked the head of the army. Rumors are because the army chief refused to crack down on protestors. This is going to get MUCH MUCH worse soon. He has the tacit approval of Russia and the west is too weak to step in. The crackdown coming soon will be quick and brutal and as a human being it saddens me to no end.


Yup.  I hate to think about it, but it really sounds like they'll be sending in the tanks next.  We could be looking at a very large massacre tomorrow.
 
2014-02-19 01:25:36 PM  

Isitoveryet: DetrimentalScience: and the west is too weak to step in

don't you think the EU should step in WAY before the U.S. starts knocking down fences to invade someones back yard?


It's cute how you think anyone in the EU would be willing to wade in against the Soviets...er...Russians.
 
2014-02-19 01:25:52 PM  

Captain Steroid: This is turning into a nightmare. :-(


It's not at the napalm and white phosphorus level yet.
 
2014-02-19 01:26:11 PM  

DetrimentalScience: He also just sacked the head of the army. Rumors are because the army chief refused to crack down on protestors. This is going to get MUCH MUCH worse soon. He has the tacit approval of Russia and the west is too weak to step in. The crackdown coming soon will be quick and brutal and as a human being it saddens me to no end.


Well, he's alright as long as the line troops and cops are willing to crack heads, and he can find a general or two to give the orders.  The Russians don't mind, and while the west may talk, and no one is going to do anything more than some sanctions.  Things don't get really dicey in a country like that until the cops and combat troops turn on the government, and it doesn't look like they will for the moment.
 
2014-02-19 01:26:40 PM  
BBC reporting armed forces head Gen. Volodymyr Zamana has been dismissed. Replacement is Adm. Yuriy Ilyin. EU pondering sanctions.

Blogger with liveblog and maps: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/
Reuters feed: http://www.livestation.com/en/reuters (feed is back up following G20 press conference w/Hollande, Merkel, and EC prez Barroso, has camera pointed at the square from behind the protestors' lines, has audio feed.)
Espreso feed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_LFrMcoEm4 (feed is up, audio appears to be commentary over speeches)

tl;dr: put another tire on the barricades, both sides settling in for a long night.

/this is in no way a bookmark
 
2014-02-19 01:26:41 PM  
I have no problem with cracking down on nationalistic protestors.  Stamp out fascism before it takes root.
 
2014-02-19 01:27:50 PM  
European people's problems
 
2014-02-19 01:28:04 PM  
The sad part in all this is the 'protesters' i.e the pro EU crowd will be left totally hopeless when the gauntlet comes down. The EU either can't and won't do anything so in many ways these protesters are doom right from the start. At worst these protester will look at the EU as having abandoned them in their greatest time of need and will feel betrayed. They will quickly turn pro Russia and Ukraine will be the Ukraine of the USSR again.

You can't be pro-something when at the end of the day not only does that 'something'  back you up but actually leave you high and dry by yourself.
 
2014-02-19 01:28:21 PM  
So another nation taking the USA's brave lead in labeling anyone who doesn't goose step to the president's tune a Terrorist.

// Hope 'n change!
 
2014-02-19 01:29:52 PM  
Are people here actively cheering on Svoboda yet?
 
2014-02-19 01:30:17 PM  
And the Russian hockey team was eliminated from the Olympics today. There are going to be some pissed off Russians out there.
 
2014-02-19 01:30:43 PM  
It's Europe versus Russia. Almost the Cold War battle our countries all longed for but now it's satellite conflict. I'm betting on Russia. It looks like Europe won't gain a toe-hold in Asia.
 
2014-02-19 01:31:24 PM  
My 78-year-old Ukrainian mother had no idea about any of this when I talked to her yesterday. I wasn't surprised, she's 78 years old and not always up on current events, so I explained a bit about what I knew. Her father fought against the Bolsheviks so I made some comment about how history always repeats itself to which she replied, "Oh yeah, like Matthew McConaughy said in True Detective last week, time is like a flat circle" and I immediately had to reassess everything I know about my mother.
 
2014-02-19 01:31:35 PM  

JorgiX: They should just have a boxing match for the presidency.


www.officialpsds.com
the new commander in chief
 
2014-02-19 01:32:02 PM  

dj_bigbird: Isitoveryet: DetrimentalScience: and the west is too weak to step in

don't you think the EU should step in WAY before the U.S. starts knocking down fences to invade someones back yard?

It's cute how you think anyone in the EU would be willing to wade in against the Soviets...er...Russians.


quickly glancing at the geography turkey looks best situated to~ carrier lost*****
 
2014-02-19 01:32:07 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-19 01:32:09 PM  
I was impressed with the number of elderly faces in the crowd. Very solemn faces, but standing witness in the middle of the night, nonetheless.
 
2014-02-19 01:32:11 PM  

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: Short threadjack:

Hey, all you guys out there who whined about the U.S. being just as bad, or worse than Russia when you had to go stand in a fenced-in area to protest the Republican/Democratic convention?  Yeah, go fark yourselves.

Threadjack over.


Ahh, there's always one in every thread.
 
2014-02-19 01:34:44 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: It's Europe versus Russia. Almost the Cold War battle our countries all longed for but now it's satellite conflict. I'm betting on Russia. It looks like Europe won't gain a toe-hold in Asia.


It's NOT Europe vs Russia. Western media is trying to push this BS (because SCARY), but if you ask a Ukrainian then it's Ukrainians vs their corrupt leaders who placed themselves above the laws.
 
2014-02-19 01:34:58 PM  
I gotta say, as much of a mess as this is, with the loss of life already incurred, with the loss of life that is sure to happen in the future, with the stamping out of human rights, etc., etc., I am just fine with sitting on the sidelines.
 
2014-02-19 01:35:23 PM  
When Georgia was getting the smackdown I remember people saying Ukraine would be next on Putin's list. Seems they were right.

To all people saying "why is west too weak to step in?" It's because it's not in the EU's backyard, it's in Putin's back yard. Putin... who threatened to point nuclear missiles at Ukraine if they displeased him. I have a suspicion that the reason Ukraine is backing away from EU and toward Russia is entirely because of Putin, and threats like that. Some we know about, some we don't. There is more chance of invading Syria than there is in Ukraine.
 
2014-02-19 01:35:49 PM  
Sadly, he's going to roll the apc's in, and start squishing the peasants who apparently don't like his iron fist rule. Sad, but it looks like lots are going to die. Just come to America people. Our rights are eroding, but, you generally don't have to worry about getting squished by a tank for protesting. Unless youre at kent state, or black. Bad plan then.
 
2014-02-19 01:36:18 PM  
I'm pretty sure Obama is going to covertly blow up the protesters and blame it on Yanukovych so that we can successfully take over their ferrous metal exports trade.
 
2014-02-19 01:37:00 PM  

DetrimentalScience: Usually the EU is considered part of the west; not just the USA. Where it gets murky is the former eastern bloc states that are now part of the EU.

Also, was just reading he declared the protests terrorists and under anti-terrorist law the enforcers have carte blanche to do what they wish. Arrest people without reason, invade homes, use force, use the military to supress rebellion etc.


after typing, i thought you may have meant "the west" in European terms. thanks for the clarification.
Also, the embolden is disgusting.

dj_bigbird: It's cute how you think anyone in the EU would be willing to wade in against the Soviets...er...Russians.


wade in against the Russian supported Ukrainian leaders in support of the Ukrainian separatists who i believe are the majority (by populace) and shouldn't be forced to adhere to the wishes of Russians (fark Russia).
you're right, they more than likely won't get involved but they should and they look like a bunk of pants shiatting chumps for going about their business while their neighbors sacrifice their lives for freedom.
 
2014-02-19 01:37:00 PM  

FarkedOver: Are people here actively cheering on Svoboda yet?


www.snarlfb.com

thenypost.files.wordpress.com


They did in '69
 
2014-02-19 01:37:19 PM  
Just because there are protestors doesn't mean we should automatically back these protestors.  There are neo-nazi groups that are instigating the violence, not the state.
 
2014-02-19 01:37:39 PM  
i hate to defend their government, but they have shown remarkable restraint so far.  the protesters basically took over that whole neighborhood, put up roadblocks, etc, and the ukraine president basically let them sit there for a few weeks in the hopes they would get bored and vacate the area.  what was he supposed to do?  just resign office because a bunch of people were protesting?  he had the military and the police keep an eye on them for weeks and finally gave them a deadline to get the hell out of there.  i mean its terrible that it turned to violence, but neither side was going to budge, and the government will always win a battle like that.  deep down i think the protesters were hoping the police would finally step in because no matter what happened, the government would look like the bad guys in that situation.  but the government had no choice, what could they do, just let the protesters live there forever?

imagine if some protesters just took over wall street in new york or something, blocked the streets, burned tires, and threw rocks at police.  i don't think our president or the local authorities would be anywhere near as patient with them as ukraine's government was.  obama would have called in the national guard and they would have locked the place down in one day.  there's no way our own government would allow a rebellious protest last as long as the one in ukraine has
 
2014-02-19 01:38:04 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Sadly, he's going to roll the apc's in, and start squishing the peasants who apparently don't like his iron fist rule. Sad, but it looks like lots are going to die. Just come to America people. Our rights are eroding, but, you generally don't have to worry about getting squished by a tank for protesting. Unless youre at kent state, or black. Bad plan then.


Does Russia have drones?  Cuz that would be interesting to see them used by another country in such a way.
 
2014-02-19 01:40:30 PM  
Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.
 
2014-02-19 01:41:38 PM  

Twilight Farkle: BBC reporting armed forces head Gen. Volodymyr Zamana has been dismissed. Replacement is Adm. Yuriy Ilyin. EU pondering sanctions.


That is scary.  Only reason to do this would be to put someone in who has no problem moving against the protesters.  If this happens, I'd expect at least some factions to break apart and support the protesters leading to a serious escalation.  I expect they would only mobilize from the East though, there were tanks on the way in December too, not sure what happened but they never made it to Kyiv.
 
2014-02-19 01:42:41 PM  

FarkedOver: I have no problem with cracking down on nationalistic protestors.  Stamp out fascism before it takes root.


It seems to be Fascism A v. Fascism B, to me.
 
2014-02-19 01:42:44 PM  
Suddenly, the protesters are the bad guys?

Hey mods, this thread started off stupid. Can't we have an other thread instead?
 
2014-02-19 01:43:11 PM  

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


Spoiler alert:  NeoNazis drink water and breathe air too.

So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?
 
2014-02-19 01:43:41 PM  

enderthexenocide: i hate to defend their government, but they have shown remarkable restraint so far.  the protesters basically took over that whole neighborhood, put up roadblocks, etc, and the ukraine president basically let them sit there for a few weeks in the hopes they would get bored and vacate the area.  what was he supposed to do?  just resign office because a bunch of people were protesting?  he had the military and the police keep an eye on them for weeks and finally gave them a deadline to get the hell out of there.  i mean its terrible that it turned to violence, but neither side was going to budge, and the government will always win a battle like that.  deep down i think the protesters were hoping the police would finally step in because no matter what happened, the government would look like the bad guys in that situation.  but the government had no choice, what could they do, just let the protesters live there forever?

imagine if some protesters just took over wall street in new york or something, blocked the streets, burned tires, and threw rocks at police.  i don't think our president or the local authorities would be anywhere near as patient with them as ukraine's government was.  obama would have called in the national guard and they would have locked the place down in one day.  there's no way our own government would allow a rebellious protest last as long as the one in ukraine has


They also took over Lviv and declared independence. This is a civil war now not a protest.
 
2014-02-19 01:44:47 PM  

NEDM: So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?


No.  This has been the most reactionary and violent group of protestors.  These are the people promoting the violence.
 
2014-02-19 01:45:05 PM  

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


Yep, they are crazy nazi types.
 
2014-02-19 01:45:39 PM  

traylor: Suddenly, the protesters are the bad guys?

Hey mods, this thread started off stupid. Can't we have an other thread instead?


Protestors who happen to be nazi are in fact bad guys.
 
2014-02-19 01:46:03 PM  

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.
 
2014-02-19 01:46:20 PM  

FarkedOver: NEDM: So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?

No.  This has been the most reactionary and violent group of protestors.  These are the people promoting the violence.


Yeeeaaaaah....I think that the Berkut's attempt to storm the barricades last night had a big hand in starting this.
 
2014-02-19 01:47:12 PM  
I don't get these protestors.  Don't they want to live under the glory of Putin's puppet regime? Why would they want to join a bunch of eurohomo countries that are scared of Saddam Hussein when they could have their lives dictated by a STRONG leader that loves the church, doesn't put up with homosexuals, and engages in the pursuits of REAL men.

watchmen-news.com

While Obama parents and plays golf, Putin engages in manly photoshoots.  That's the leader America needs.  My gun club agrees.
 
2014-02-19 01:47:47 PM  

NEDM: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

Spoiler alert:  NeoNazis drink water and breathe air too.

So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?


1. Never get involved in internet wars with believers
 
rpl
2014-02-19 01:48:00 PM  
It's spring already?

Stupid global warming.
 
2014-02-19 01:48:56 PM  

firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.


Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.  The fact that they want their version of democracy doesn't mean we should support that.  I'd be willing to bet that the protestors don't reflect a national consensus overall either.  You know that, I know that and the world knows that.

This is an attempted right-wing revolution.  I don't support it in any way shape or form.
 
2014-02-19 01:49:36 PM  
Here is an example of your "restraint".  Warning, NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipJOV01Pr4">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=DipJOV01Pr4

This is from Khmelnytskyi filmed earlier today
 
2014-02-19 01:53:12 PM  

FarkedOver: firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.

Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.  The fact that they want their version of democracy doesn't mean we should support that.  I'd be willing to bet that the protestors don't reflect a national consensus overall either.  You know that, I know that and the world knows that.

This is an attempted right-wing revolution.  I don't support it in any way shape or form.


So, better they should live under the iron fist of Putin and his puppets...

That's kind of the crux of your position of never supporting anything other than the ideal, you'll never get anything relatively better because you're so married to idealism that you can't objectively see that even as right-wing, it would be better for the Ukraine to at least govern itself, rather than continue under the Putin regime. I'm sure it's just coincidence that the protests started after the EU veto by the president, and also coincidence that they stepped up after the recent loan guarantee by Putin. If all was as you say, and they were just neo-nazis, they would be as supportive of the Putin regime as the other neo-nazi groups that Putin tacitly supports throughout Russia.
 
2014-02-19 01:53:22 PM  

echomike23: JorgiX: They should just have a boxing match for the presidency.

[www.officialpsds.com image 400x338]
the new commander in chief


This guy might have something to say about that...
news.bbcimg.co.uk
 
2014-02-19 01:53:41 PM  
I'm willing to bet most of the Ukrainian population doesn't want to be included into the EU.  I think what is more likely is the the Ukrainian people want to be governed better.  Does that mean you should hitch your wagon to these protestors? FARK NO.
 
2014-02-19 01:54:06 PM  

traylor: Suddenly, the protesters are the bad guys?

Hey mods, this thread started off stupid. Can't we have an other thread instead?


Bioshock Infinite taught me that both sides are bad.
 
2014-02-19 01:55:10 PM  

firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.


it's the neo-nazis that have guns in with the protesters. This is a revolution/civil war and the crazies win a lot of times when that happens.
 
2014-02-19 01:55:21 PM  

firefly212: So, better they should live under the iron fist of Putin and his puppets...


Not at all.  I'm not trying to make this into a cold war part 2.  Russia doesn't have the influence it once did.  I think that the Ukrainian people want a better functioning government.  Would they get that if these protestors won the day? Nope.  Not by a long shot.
 
2014-02-19 01:58:39 PM  
I'm rooting for the janitorial staff that will have to clean all this up once these unemployed people and government goons leave the square.  They are the real heroes.
 
2014-02-19 01:58:49 PM  

FarkedOver: I'm willing to bet most of the Ukrainian population doesn't want to be included into the EU


I think you would be wrong.  Parts of the east don't, but their economy relies heavily on trade with Russia.  Still, even they have also been getting screwed last couple of years.  It remains very poor with high unemployment and little opportunity.  Western Ukraine and most of central Ukraine would support closer ties to the EU.
 
2014-02-19 01:59:30 PM  

the_coach5040: I thought Barry O released a sternly word press release...how is this still happening?


He's just preparing to become an interfering dictating busybody, you know, like in those dreams you have.
 
2014-02-19 01:59:55 PM  

danzak: I think you would be wrong. Parts of the east don't, but their economy relies heavily on trade with Russia. Still, even they have also been getting screwed last couple of years. It remains very poor with high unemployment and little opportunity. Western Ukraine and most of central Ukraine would support closer ties to the EU.


Closer ties sure, I don't think anyone would care about new trade deals and cooperation.  Full inclusion? Won't ever happen.
 
2014-02-19 02:01:31 PM  

FarkedOver: firefly212: So, better they should live under the iron fist of Putin and his puppets...

Not at all.  I'm not trying to make this into a cold war part 2.  Russia doesn't have the influence it once did.  I think that the Ukrainian people want a better functioning government.  Would they get that if these protestors won the day? Nope.  Not by a long shot.


Maybe it doesn't have the influence it once did but it still has a lot. The nuclear threats and withholding gas are clear indicators of that. Then you have the assassinations and poisonings of opponents.
 
2014-02-19 02:02:46 PM  
http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8911/

Here is some interesting data.  Most people surveyed don't support the protest and most people disapprove of the tactics used by the protestors.
 
2014-02-19 02:03:45 PM  

FarkedOver: Full inclusion? Won't ever happen


If they ever got their shiat together, it might.  In the near future?  Nope.
 
2014-02-19 02:04:56 PM  

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


Well isn't it true?
 
rpl
2014-02-19 02:05:35 PM  

danzak: Here is an example of your "restraint".  Warning, NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipJOV01Pr4">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=DipJOV01Pr4

This is from Khmelnytskyi filmed earlier today


Who fired the shots? For what purpose? Why'd they stop? With some difficulty (all crap aside this is Ukraine, not Libya) I can somewhat-kinda imagine the police firing into the crowd once they are moving in at full force but like this? Sneak up to a crowd, empty an AK at a random spot and disappear? That's a weird way to intimidate a crowd.
 
2014-02-19 02:06:39 PM  

FarkedOver: http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8911/

Here is some interesting data.  Most people surveyed don't support the protest and most people disapprove of the tactics used by the protestors.


Most interesting, thanks.
 
2014-02-19 02:07:25 PM  
I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.
 
2014-02-19 02:07:37 PM  

danzak: Twilight Farkle: BBC reporting armed forces head Gen. Volodymyr Zamana has been dismissed. Replacement is Adm. Yuriy Ilyin. EU pondering sanctions.

That is scary. Only reason to do this would be to put someone in who has no problem moving against the protesters. If this happens, I'd expect at least some factions to break apart and support the protesters leading to a serious escalation. I expect they would only mobilize from the East though, there were tanks on the way in December too, not sure what happened but they never made it to Kyiv.


Yeah. The situation is at or near the point where we have to treat the army as a wildcard: which units will accept orders from the new commander, and which units won't. If those units divide along geographic/political lines (as Ukraine itself is arguably divided), the potential for escalation just got higher. With large gas fields in both the western and eastern ends of the country, Russia won't accept any split without a fight. I speculate that most Ukrainians, whether they lean towards the EU or Russia, probably aren't too hot on the idea of partitioning the country either. We're not there yet. Maybe we get lucky and cooler heads prevail.
 
2014-02-19 02:13:10 PM  

FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.


Either way, the current government needs to go and be held accountable.  Free elections are the only option from here.
 
2014-02-19 02:13:48 PM  

FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.


As if the "support" of the yahoos on fark means fark all anyway.
 
2014-02-19 02:14:16 PM  

FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.


Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.
 
2014-02-19 02:18:00 PM  
Freedom isn't free and I'm damned proud of the Ukrainians for standing up to their non-representative government.  If they manage to overthrow the pro-Russian government that's tormenting them, then the American people and government should be ready to throw their total support behind those revolutionary forces in Ukraine.

Good luck you crazy Ukrainian bastards.
 
2014-02-19 02:18:32 PM  
On their way to the Ukrainian front

img.rt.com
 
2014-02-19 02:19:35 PM  

FarkedOver: firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.

Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.  The fact that they want their version of democracy doesn't mean we should support that.  I'd be willing to bet that the protestors don't reflect a national consensus overall either.  You know that, I know that and the world knows that.

This is an attempted right-wing revolution.  I don't support it in any way shape or form.


So then you are commie, thanks for pointing that out.

Tell me oh wise one, if the KKK suddenly came out in support of abortion rights would it alter your view on the subject?
 
2014-02-19 02:19:42 PM  

Ned Stark: FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.

As if the "support" of the yahoos on fark means fark all anyway.


Oh I know haha.  The point is a lot of people just have a knee-jerk reaction to automatically back any protest.

Food for thought:

On November 7th 1923 there was a protest where 3,00 people got out into the streets, where they battled with police and military forces all day, where the state had previously banned this groups meetings, all said and done 18 people were killed by police.  Without further info we could mourn the deaths of those people at the brutal hands of the state. We could support the large crowd of people, we could rally behind this protest.  But what if I told you that this protest took place in Munich Germany, that it stood against the government because it believed it was being ran by Jewish traitors, that it was anti-government because these protesters despised democratic government, that it was led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party.  With that context I'm sure that our outlook on this protest would change dramatically.  The point being that in politics context is EVERYTHING.
 
2014-02-19 02:23:03 PM  

jaybeezey: So then you are commie, thanks for pointing that out.

Tell me oh wise one, if the KKK suddenly came out in support of abortion rights would it alter your view on the subject?


What the fark are you talking about?
 
2014-02-19 02:24:07 PM  

danzak: Here is an example of your "restraint".  Warning, NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipJOV01Pr4">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=DipJOV01Pr4

This is from Khmelnytskyi filmed earlier today


What the fark?

Is that a government building? Why bust out glass from the door and fire into a (seemingly) peaceful crowd? Wouldn't you want to keep your doors...intact?

/lots of questions
//this will get messy
///not entirely obscure
 
2014-02-19 02:24:44 PM  

hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.


Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.
 
2014-02-19 02:26:58 PM  

vpb: He used to be much cooler.


Shakes fist
 
2014-02-19 02:29:34 PM  
You can't have 100K people in the street and just go on with business as usual. This idiot decided he was going to try and weasel his way out of the problem while having his pigs engage in absolutely awful secret police tactics. As that didn't cut it, now he's trying the 'ol "my people are terrorists and I can kill them how I want" gig. I'm so glad the protesters seized a bunch of a guns and ammo. I hope they rebuild their barriers with cop corpses.
 
2014-02-19 02:29:56 PM  
Oleg Vasilenko, a 35-year-old businessman who spoke to The New Times, said that it was the first time ever that he participated in a protest rally. "I don't give a shiat about Yatsenyuk and who will keep on plundering the country in the next five years, the opposition or the government. All I want is for Ukraine to get on the European path of development. And all of my company, that is all the 12 people, came here. And each of us would agree to a second term for Yanukovych, if he signed the agreement," said the businessman.
 
2014-02-19 02:35:22 PM  

FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.


Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.
 
2014-02-19 02:36:12 PM  
 
2014-02-19 02:38:08 PM  

hellfrozeover: FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.

Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.


Well, 75+ years of Russians settling into Ukrainian territory will do that to a country, wouldn't it?

psst: those people in the east aren't Ukrainians.  They're Russians.
 
2014-02-19 02:38:21 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Ukraine Liveblog: Day 2 of The Battle For Maidan Lots of info.


Your source will be discredited as it is Russian in nature.  Obviously western media is correct.
 
2014-02-19 02:38:53 PM  

hellfrozeover: FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.

Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.


www.interpretermag.com
Linguistic division in Ukraine
 
2014-02-19 02:40:48 PM  
From twitter.com/TarasDenysenko

Protesters armed with rocks and Molotovs are storming Poltava regional administration.

Accord.to Udar, one of the protesters who participated in blocking Odessa-Kyiv highway was run over to his death

Ruslana from Maidan stage: "We are all here provocateurs, extremists, terrorists and fascists, didn't you know?"

Party of Regions deputies start to peel away. The first are those elected in majoritarian districts. Link

Turchynov from the stage of Maidan says that city mayor of Zhytomyr has "urgently" withdrawn from the Party of Regions.

Zhytomyr regional administration has been taken by protesters

Ukraine president Yanukovych just fired his army chief. The big question is why. If it was for failing to accept crackdown orders: bad. Bad.

Berkuters in Ternopil pledged their allegiance to the people of Ukraine YouTube Link

Protesters in Lutsk make a corridor for police to leave regional HQ YouTube Link

reports that SBU (national security agency) building in Khmelnitskyi caught fire from Molotovs

Ministry of Defense announced that due to an "anti-terrorist" operation in #Ukraine, military might be involved

"[unknowns] disguised as self-defence were spotted on Kostelna st.;they shoot at protesters"
 
2014-02-19 02:41:18 PM  

FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: Ukraine Liveblog: Day 2 of The Battle For Maidan Lots of info.

Your source will be discredited as it is Russian in nature.  Obviously western media is correct.


Funny I just just saw an EU parliament member on the stage promising support in Kiev.
 
2014-02-19 02:43:22 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: Ukraine Liveblog: Day 2 of The Battle For Maidan Lots of info.

Your source will be discredited as it is Russian in nature.  Obviously western media is correct.

Funny I just just saw an EU parliament member on the stage promising support in Kiev.


The EU shouldn't be writing checks that their ass can't cash.
 
2014-02-19 02:43:38 PM  

FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.


Here's one.  Funny, it says the exact opposite of the survey you found.
 
2014-02-19 02:44:03 PM  

FarkedOver: I have no problem with cracking down on nationalistic protestors.  Stamp out fascism before it takes root.


There are some extremists that have joined the protests and unfortunately some are violent, but to characterize the majority of the movement as "fascist" is false. Where are you getting your information, the Ukrainian government? The Russian govenrment perhaps? Or maybe it's someone like Dr. Stephen Cohen? Link goes to a debate moderated by Amy Goodman. Scroll to the end where Cohen defends Vladimir Putin. Neat!

The Ukrainian government wants to be closer to Putin's authoritarian Russia. If you're so anti-nationalism, how is supporting that remotely justifiable? Will you try to claim that nationalism and fascism are terrible, but authoritarianism is just dandy?

The truth is that the opposition includes people from the left, right, and center. Svoboda hard liners do not comprise the majority of the protesters. A cursory look at Ukrainian politics shows that traditional views of opposing left and right wing forces are very muddled there. Pro-EU vs. Pro-Russia is a far more meaningful divide.

Of course Russia and the Ukrainian government want to paint the opposition as nothing but a bunch of violent, far right wing fascists. It's a lie, but it will make it okay to crush them. How nice that they have people like you to carry water for them.
 
2014-02-19 02:45:36 PM  

FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: Ukraine Liveblog: Day 2 of The Battle For Maidan Lots of info.

Your source will be discredited as it is Russian in nature.  Obviously western media is correct.

Funny I just just saw an EU parliament member on the stage promising support in Kiev.

The EU shouldn't be writing checks that their ass can't cash.


The White House is gonna go for sanctions, LOL. Seems the EU will go along

1651 GMT: The White House has condemned the Ukrainian government's actions as "outrageous." AFP reports:
Clashes in Kiev between police and anti-government protesters that have claimed 26 lives are "completely outrageous" and "have no place in the 21st century," Deputy National Security Advisor Ben Rhodes told reporters aboard Air Force One.

"The fact of the matter is we have made very clear to the Ukrainian government that it is their responsibility to allow for people (to) protest," Rhodes said.

"We consistently oppose any of the violence by all sides, but the responsibility is on the government to pull back its riot police, to call a truce and to engage in a meaningful discussion with the opposition about the way forward."
 
2014-02-19 02:46:12 PM  

NEDM: Here's one. Funny, it says the exact opposite of the survey you found.


That's pretty much in agreement with what mine said.  I think it just used different language.
 
2014-02-19 02:47:27 PM  

Further evidence that this is an East Ukraine/West Ukraine conflict:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Uk r aine_elections_map

Will Ukraine end up like Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia?
 
2014-02-19 02:48:23 PM  

hellfrozeover: Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.


It falls in line with the population.  The western half of the country speaks and is mostly Ukrainian, while the east is Russian.  The western half wants to be with EU and the right Russia.  The cities and army are also split so we are looking at a real civil war in the making. The big question is what will Russia do when it breaks out into open warfare.
 
2014-02-19 02:49:29 PM  

FarkedOver: NEDM: Here's one. Funny, it says the exact opposite of the survey you found.

That's pretty much in agreement with what mine said.  I think it just used different language.

When being asked about their attitude to the Euromaidan, 49.0% of the respondents expressed complete or greater support, while 45.5% oppose Euromaidan (to full or greater degree), the research said.


Yeah, no.
 
2014-02-19 02:49:49 PM  

patrick767: FarkedOver: I have no problem with cracking down on nationalistic protestors.  Stamp out fascism before it takes root.

There are some extremists that have joined the protests and unfortunately some are violent, but to characterize the majority of the movement as "fascist" is false. Where are you getting your information, the Ukrainian government? The Russian govenrment perhaps? Or maybe it's someone like Dr. Stephen Cohen? Link goes to a debate moderated by Amy Goodman. Scroll to the end where Cohen defends Vladimir Putin. Neat!

The Ukrainian government wants to be closer to Putin's authoritarian Russia. If you're so anti-nationalism, how is supporting that remotely justifiable? Will you try to claim that nationalism and fascism are terrible, but authoritarianism is just dandy?

The truth is that the opposition includes people from the left, right, and center. Svoboda hard liners do not comprise the majority of the protesters. A cursory look at Ukrainian politics shows that traditional views of opposing left and right wing forces are very muddled there. Pro-EU vs. Pro-Russia is a far more meaningful divide.

Of course Russia and the Ukrainian government want to paint the opposition as nothing but a bunch of violent, far right wing fascists. It's a lie, but it will make it okay to crush them. How nice that they have people like you to carry water for them.


If you've read my further comments you'd clearly see that I don't think people should support the Ukrainian government.  But that does not mean that should hitch their wagon to these protesters.

And again as stated earlier:

On November 7th 1923 there was a protest where 3,000 people got out into the streets, where they battled with police and military forces all day, where the state had previously banned this groups meetings, all said and done 18 people were killed by police.  Without further info we could mourn the deaths of those people at the brutal hands of the state. We could support the large crowd of people, we could rally behind this protest.  But what if I told you that this protest took place in Munich Germany, that it stood against the government because it believed it was being ran by Jewish traitors, that it was anti-government because these protesters despised democratic government, that it was led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party.  With that context I'm sure that our outlook on this protest would change dramatically.  The point being that in politics context is EVERYTHING.

The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.
 
2014-02-19 02:52:05 PM  

NEDM: FarkedOver: NEDM: Here's one. Funny, it says the exact opposite of the survey you found.

That's pretty much in agreement with what mine said.  I think it just used different language.

When being asked about their attitude to the Euromaidan, 49.0% of the respondents expressed complete or greater support, while 45.5% oppose Euromaidan (to full or greater degree), the research said.

Yeah, no.


Your data is from a week later so that is to be expected.  I'm sure the number is going to go up initially as this new round of violence sinks in.
 
2014-02-19 02:52:23 PM  

FarkedOver: If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.


not to disprove but to share an interpretation.

If you limit your polling to oblast centers, i think, especially in the Ukraine, you can get an obvious  representation of the administrative cities (that are  Russian friendly, that's where the money is).

WHETHER SUPPORT EUROMAYDAN % to the questioned
Yes in total = 44
No in total = 51
found difficult to answer = 5
The maximum level of support of Euromaydan is registered in oblast centers in the West of Ukraine (86%) while 81% of residents of oblast centers of Eastern Ukraine do not support Euromaydan.

apparently has something to do with the history of Ukraine, Russia & newly added western cities & the opposing views of each.

ATTITUDE TO THE FACT THAT IN THE NUMBER OF OBLASTS PROTESTERS CAPTURED / TRIED TO CAPTURE OBLAST STATE ADMINISTRATIONS % to the

positive in total = 32
Negative in total = 60
found difficult to answer = 8
negative attitude to take-over or attempts to capture oblast state administrations by protesters while a third of the questioned have positive attitude to such practice (32%).

this may say more about how people feel about violence and civil unrest in their own backyard.
i don't see this as having anything to do with supporting euromaydan or not, it's a survival instinct. people don't want to kill other people for power.

finally & what i view as most important is the last poll.
WHETHER CIVIL WAR THREATENS UKRAINE % to the questioned
this says to me that most see that civil war is coming (already here?). that is to say they know that the people of Ukraine are not going to sit diddly by why the President sides with Russia over the best interests of the people.

what i'm saing is that the link you provided (to me) doesn't provide a solid answer.

/messy i know.
 
2014-02-19 02:52:53 PM  

FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.


Yes, it's the Far Right who is responsible for those government troops machine-gunning a peaceful group in that video posted upthread.
 
2014-02-19 02:54:45 PM  

Isitoveryet: what i'm saing is that the link you provided (to me) doesn't provide a solid answer.


No doubt about it.  The whole point of my posts in this thread is that we shouldn't automatically back a protest.
 
2014-02-19 02:55:50 PM  
Which side are Zakhaev and the ultranationalists on?
 
2014-02-19 02:56:44 PM  

NEDM: FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.

Yes, it's the Far Right who is responsible for those government troops machine-gunning a peaceful group in that video posted upthread.


This has been going on for a lot longer than this week.  When the state has been met with violence before, they will respond with violence.  This is just how it is.  I'm not condoning it, it's just how it farking is.
 
2014-02-19 02:57:01 PM  

NEDM: FarkedOver: NEDM: Here's one. Funny, it says the exact opposite of the survey you found.

That's pretty much in agreement with what mine said.  I think it just used different language.

When being asked about their attitude to the Euromaidan, 49.0% of the respondents expressed complete or greater support, while 45.5% oppose Euromaidan (to full or greater degree), the research said.

Yeah, no.


They both say Ukraine is split and headed or in a civil war. Police stations are being overrun. Volyn Governor Alexander Bashkalenko was captured Lviv declared indepence went government buildings and radio stations were taken, it's crazy.
 
2014-02-19 02:57:55 PM  
A Ukrainian reporter was murdered in Kiev today.

FarkedOver:

Will you also claim that the titushki do not exist? It's been very widely reported that the government hires these thugs as both enforcers and to act as agent provocateurs, stirring up violence amidst the protesters.
 
2014-02-19 02:58:22 PM  
Those that know the difference between right wing and nazi are getting a chuckle over this show of ignorance.

Personally I'll be happy if it winds up as a complete clusterfark that keeps everybody over there busy and leaves us alone
 
2014-02-19 02:59:33 PM  

Isitoveryet: DetrimentalScience: and the west is too weak to step in

don't you think the EU should step in WAY before the U.S. starts knocking down fences to invade someones back yard?


Is invade the first word in the dictionary in USA?

Where the fark did you get that notion from?


Anyways, the EU has already implemented travel santions, and is now debating how to implement economic sanctions. The EU doesn't want to fark up Ukraine more than it is by just shutting down their economy (which would also likely force them into the arms of Russia), but is looking at which individuals, oligarchs and politicians, they can hurt financially.
 
2014-02-19 02:59:39 PM  

FarkedOver: http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8911/

Here is some interesting data.  Most people surveyed don't support the protest and most people disapprove of the tactics used by the protestors.


44 against 51? And this is a poll from January. Same thing happened in Egypt: cops start to beat and shoot people, and your numbers aren't worth anything anymore. Add in some titushky's, which the populace already hated in the first place, and you've got things rolling.
 
2014-02-19 02:59:39 PM  

patrick767: A Ukrainian reporter was murdered in Kiev today.

FarkedOver:

Will you also claim that the titushki do not exist? It's been very widely reported that the government hires these thugs as both enforcers and to act as agent provocateurs, stirring up violence amidst the protesters.


Agents provocateur.
 
2014-02-19 03:00:16 PM  

FarkedOver: NEDM: FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.

Yes, it's the Far Right who is responsible for those government troops machine-gunning a peaceful group in that video posted upthread.

This has been going on for a lot longer than this week.  When the state has been met with violence before, they will respond with violence.  This is just how it is.  I'm not condoning it, it's just how it farking is.


It sure farking sounds like you're condoning it because you don't like the people protesting, despite farking everyone telling you that the NeoNazis aren't even a significant minority in the protests.  And, of course, despite multiple people showing you that the issue has split Ukraine down the middle you're still spouting off how it's "not a popular movement" and "doesn't have the support of the Ukrainians".
 
2014-02-19 03:01:20 PM  

patrick767: A Ukrainian reporter was murdered in Kiev today.

FarkedOver:

Will you also claim that the titushki do not exist? It's been very widely reported that the government hires these thugs as both enforcers and to act as agent provocateurs, stirring up violence amidst the protesters.


I'm not carrying water for the farking Ukrainian government.  I'm also not carrying water for these protesters.  I'm not denying that this is a messy situation.  I don't know what you want me to say to you, but clearly you want me to say something that is going to further piss you off.  Give me time, I'm sure it'll happen.
 
2014-02-19 03:03:12 PM  

dj_bigbird: Isitoveryet: DetrimentalScience: and the west is too weak to step in

don't you think the EU should step in WAY before the U.S. starts knocking down fences to invade someones back yard?

It's cute how you think anyone in the EU would be willing to wade in against the Soviets...er...Russians.


No, that's farking insane. USA wouldn't be that insane either.

But of course, again, what is it with that "invade" thing? Are Americans braindead or something?

I didn't understand either posts before yours, as suggesting that the EU should invade anyone. Something the EU can't do, seeing as it isn't a political union, and doesn't have an army.
 
2014-02-19 03:03:44 PM  

danzak: Here is an example of your "restraint".  Warning, NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipJOV01Pr4">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=DipJOV01Pr4

This is from Khmelnytskyi filmed earlier today


/Ok..was that someone in the hotel (owner? manager) shooting? Or was it a protester.  I'm guessing it was someone who was guarding /staying in the building.  The one dude with the through and through should be ok, but the poor lady who took an AK round to the head is pretty much farked.  Very sad days.
 
2014-02-19 03:03:49 PM  

FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.


The great majority of the protesters do not appear to be part of these "far right groups", so your claim is false. The protesters are anti-Russian obviously, but as I said, they come from the left, right, and center. Your characterization of them as far right wing fascists is misleading and fits perfectly with Russian and Ukrainian government propaganda.

Perhaps the police should not have decided to try to clear out the main protest camp yesterday that has been occupied for months. They went in with force and were met by force. People died on both sides.
 
2014-02-19 03:04:51 PM  

JorgiX: They should just have a boxing match for the presidency.


your idea has many merit
 
2014-02-19 03:06:37 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: patrick767: A Ukrainian reporter was murdered in Kiev today.

FarkedOver:

Will you also claim that the titushki do not exist? It's been very widely reported that the government hires these thugs as both enforcers and to act as agent provocateurs, stirring up violence amidst the protesters.

Agents provocateur.


You should have posted that response with a grammar nazi image.

Also, it's agents provocateurs.
 
2014-02-19 03:07:18 PM  

patrick767: FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.

The great majority of the protesters do not appear to be part of these "far right groups", so your claim is false. The protesters are anti-Russian obviously, but as I said, they come from the left, right, and center. Your characterization of them as far right wing fascists is misleading and fits perfectly with Russian and Ukrainian government propaganda.

Perhaps the police should not have decided to try to clear out the main protest camp yesterday that has been occupied for months. They went in with force and were met by force. People died on both sides.


It's crazy to me that some guy thinks that all the protesters are far-right anti-Russian groups. Seems to me that the far-right would be very pro-Russia.
 
2014-02-19 03:07:49 PM  

NEDM: FarkedOver: NEDM: FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.

Yes, it's the Far Right who is responsible for those government troops machine-gunning a peaceful group in that video posted upthread.

This has been going on for a lot longer than this week.  When the state has been met with violence before, they will respond with violence.  This is just how it is.  I'm not condoning it, it's just how it farking is.

It sure farking sounds like you're condoning it because you don't like the people protesting, despite farking everyone telling you that the NeoNazis aren't even a significant minority in the protests.  And, of course, despite multiple people showing you that the issue has split Ukraine down the middle you're still spouting off how it's "not a popular movement" and "doesn't have the support of the Ukrainians".


I don't mind protesting.  The motivation of the protests is what is key.  Everyone has not told me Neo-Nazis aren't a significant minority. I'd say only a significant minority of posts here suggest that. I'd say that the people that claim the ultra-right groups aren't a vocal, disruptive, violent and influential minority are being disingenuous and not aware of the reality of the situation.  Split down the middle does not equal popular movement or support of the Ukrainian people.
 
2014-02-19 03:08:28 PM  

patrick767: cameroncrazy1984: patrick767: A Ukrainian reporter was murdered in Kiev today.

FarkedOver:

Will you also claim that the titushki do not exist? It's been very widely reported that the government hires these thugs as both enforcers and to act as agent provocateurs, stirring up violence amidst the protesters.

Agents provocateur.

You should have posted that response with a grammar nazi image.

Also, it's agents provocateurs.


So we were both wrong.
 
2014-02-19 03:09:18 PM  

FarkedOver: I'd say that the people that claim the ultra-right groups aren't a vocal, disruptive, violent and influential minority are being disingenuous and not aware of the reality of the situation


Hooray appeals to authority!
 
2014-02-19 03:10:01 PM  
FarkedOver:

I'm not carrying water for the farking Ukrainian government.  I'm also not carrying water for these protesters.  I'm not denying that this is a messy situation.  I don't know what you want me to say to you, but clearly you want me to say something that is going to further piss you off.  Give me time, I'm sure it'll happen.


See you don't seem to feel entirely comfortable with either side in the conflict, neither one representing a policy agenda that fully conforms with your beliefs and priorities.  Since you don't want to make a deal with either of the devils you'd just prefer to avoid the appearance of supporting either.

Unfortunately, that's exactly the wrong kind of response, especially for an outside observer.  By choosing to support neither side you fall for the classic fallacy of neutrality, that by remaining above the fray you won't have an impact on its outcome.  However, the balance of power between belligerents is not equal and one side (the Government) doesn't need outside assistance or support to overcome its opposition.  So by supporting neither side you are, in fact, "carrying water" for the government.  Have the courage to admit it.
 
2014-02-19 03:10:12 PM  

patrick767: cameroncrazy1984: patrick767: A Ukrainian reporter was murdered in Kiev today.

FarkedOver:

Will you also claim that the titushki do not exist? It's been very widely reported that the government hires these thugs as both enforcers and to act as agent provocateurs, stirring up violence amidst the protesters.

Agents provocateur.

You should have posted that response with a grammar nazi image.

Also, it's agents provocateurs.


Usage example: "The agents provocateurs ordered four Whoppers Jr."
 
2014-02-19 03:10:27 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: I'd say that the people that claim the ultra-right groups aren't a vocal, disruptive, violent and influential minority are being disingenuous and not aware of the reality of the situation

Hooray appeals to authority!


Huh? What?
 
2014-02-19 03:10:53 PM  

FarkedOver: Split down the middle does not equal popular movement or support of the Ukrainian people.


...Yes it farking does!  It means that half the farking country is behind it!  Jesus Christ, listen to yourself!
 
2014-02-19 03:13:04 PM  

spawn73: Isitoveryet: DetrimentalScience: and the west is too weak to step in

don't you think the EU should step in WAY before the U.S. starts knocking down fences to invade someones back yard?

Is invade the first word in the dictionary in USA?

Where the fark did you get that notion from?


Anyways, the EU has already implemented travel santions, and is now debating how to implement economic sanctions. The EU doesn't want to fark up Ukraine more than it is by just shutting down their economy (which would also likely force them into the arms of Russia), but is looking at which individuals, oligarchs and politicians, they can hurt financially.


the first word in the english dictionary is A, invade doesn't come until you get into the I's.

i got the notion of the U.S. invading when i incorrectly interpreted the use of the term "west" in a post, then, i instantly realized my mistake. & thank you for being on top of things.

what's interesting is that some people believe that Yanukovych was playing both sides of the coin, he was holding out on signing the EU agreement in the hopes that Russia would increase their bailout while demanding more money form the EU simply to bring Ukraine up to EU standards of business.

what gets me is that it seems that he has Ukraines best interests in mind but his heart will always take him home to mother Russia.

so send him to Russia.
 
2014-02-19 03:13:47 PM  
Drone footage over Kiev

Something else to see technology at work (sigh)
 
2014-02-19 03:14:45 PM  
Dear Ukraine,

Please don't go all Tiananmen Square on your protestors.

Thanks,

R
 
2014-02-19 03:16:55 PM  

NEDM: FarkedOver: Split down the middle does not equal popular movement or support of the Ukrainian people.

...Yes it farking does!  It means that half the farking country is behind it!  Jesus Christ, listen to yourself!


And half the country doesn't.  That doesn't sound very popular, it sounds more like civil war BS.  You need to relax man, you're getting bent out of shape like I came over your house and shiat in your cereal this morning.... Christ.
 
2014-02-19 03:17:33 PM  

FarkedOver: cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: I'd say that the people that claim the ultra-right groups aren't a vocal, disruptive, violent and influential minority are being disingenuous and not aware of the reality of the situation

Hooray appeals to authority!

Huh? What?


Only you apparently have the authority to decide the "reality" of the situation. Those with differing opinions obviously don't.
 
2014-02-19 03:18:32 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: cameroncrazy1984: FarkedOver: I'd say that the people that claim the ultra-right groups aren't a vocal, disruptive, violent and influential minority are being disingenuous and not aware of the reality of the situation

Hooray appeals to authority!

Huh? What?

Only you apparently have the authority to decide the "reality" of the situation. Those with differing opinions obviously don't.


Ok.
 
2014-02-19 03:31:18 PM  

vpb: I know where he can get some advice for handling the situation!

[news.bbcimg.co.uk image 304x171]


img.fark.net
 
2014-02-19 03:43:16 PM  
Fark has been a hive of scum and villainy for quite some time but I'm hard pressed to think of a subject where people have been so aggressively ignorant!  Ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine are (shock) pro Russian but even the East is starting to get fed up with Yanukovich's rule (there are protests even happening in Donbass and Kharkiv).  Ethnic Ukrainians largely see themselves as European.  Full stop.  If you believe otherwise, you are not qualified to hold even a casual discussion on this topic.

But then again, what the hell would an Ethnic Ukrainian that speaks the language know?  Listening to the speakers themselves with no filter obviously doesn't hold a candle to FarkedOver's wild assertions from government propaganda sources!  Before you go on about your poll again, it is pretty damn clear to everyone that polls mean jack and shiat even HERE in the US.  You want to use those polls as hard evidence when their media makes Fox News look legit:img.fark.net
Rough translations:
Left: "What Russian media showed"
Right: "What I saw"
 
2014-02-19 03:46:49 PM  

NEDM: FarkedOver: Split down the middle does not equal popular movement or support of the Ukrainian people.

...Yes it farking does!  It means that half the farking country is behind it!  Jesus Christ, listen to yourself!


i17.photobucket.com
 
2014-02-19 03:51:55 PM  
So, are we going to start having an official news recap stickied at the top, and  green blue/yellow thread banners?

/this feels so 2009
//seriously though, I hope things turn out well for the average Ukrainian in all this unrest
 
2014-02-19 03:58:01 PM  

Farkin' Uke: Fark has been a hive of scum and villainy for quite some time but I'm hard pressed to think of a subject where people have been so aggressively ignorant!  Ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine are (shock) pro Russian but even the East is starting to get fed up with Yanukovich's rule (there are protests even happening in Donbass and Kharkiv).  Ethnic Ukrainians largely see themselves as European.  Full stop.  If you believe otherwise, you are not qualified to hold even a casual discussion on this topic.

But then again, what the hell would an Ethnic Ukrainian that speaks the language know?  Listening to the speakers themselves with no filter obviously doesn't hold a candle to FarkedOver's wild assertions from government propaganda sources!  Before you go on about your poll again, it is pretty damn clear to everyone that polls mean jack and shiat even HERE in the US.  You want to use those polls as hard evidence when their media makes Fox News look legit:[img.fark.net image 600x270]
Rough translations:
Left: "What Russian media showed"
Right: "What I saw"


I already stated that poll was old, and the new poll reflects newer numbers.  As the state responds with more violence the protests support will increase.  That's just how it goes.

Maybe the heroic SS Galician division will ride in to rescue the people of Ukraine from the godless soviet horde!
 
2014-02-19 04:03:13 PM  
What are they yelling on stage?  Sounds like "slava nazi" ?
 
2014-02-19 04:04:43 PM  
2100 GMT: Pravda is reporting that opposition leader Vitali Klitschko and others have re-entered negotiations with President Yanukovych, and there would be a temporary ceasefire where police officers would hold off on assaulting Maidan Square.
This is a developing story.
 
2014-02-19 04:05:13 PM  
ahhh slava natsiya, nm
 
2014-02-19 04:05:21 PM  

Jon H: Drone footage over Kiev


Huh. At 0:33, you can see a huge line of people, that stretches from behind the podium, right towards where the fires are. Good teamwork, they formed a line to bring stones to the barricades.
 
2014-02-19 04:06:52 PM  
 
2014-02-19 04:11:54 PM  

Philibuster: What are they yelling on stage?  Sounds like "slava nazi" ?


Not even a little bit.....

Slava Ukrayini = Glory to Ukraine

and the response is

Heroyim Slava = Heroes Glory
 
2014-02-19 04:14:19 PM  

Philibuster: ahhh slava natsiya, nm


Sorry, I missed this comment, but this translation is "Glory (to the) Nation"
 
2014-02-19 04:20:27 PM  
Questioned about the propriety of police action, Mr. Yanukovich responded "I will not buy this record, it is scratched."
 
2014-02-19 04:22:02 PM  

FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups


FarkedOver: fascism


FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups


FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi


FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.


FarkedOver: Nazi Party


FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis



FarkedOver: I'm just asking

 
2014-02-19 04:26:49 PM  

LewDux: FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: fascism

FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi

FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.

FarkedOver: Nazi Party

FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis


FarkedOver: I'm just asking


And?
 
2014-02-19 04:27:54 PM  
Rise up, slave Ukraneetsa comrades, rise up and kill your oppressors.

/Ok, just kidding about the kill part. Tickle them to death.
 
2014-02-19 04:29:25 PM  

FarkedOver: LewDux: FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: fascism

FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi

FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.

FarkedOver: Nazi Party

FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis


FarkedOver: I'm just asking

And?


He's pointing out that nobody buys your "just asking questions" bullshiat, Glenn...
 
2014-02-19 04:30:51 PM  
President Ukraine just announced truce with opposition according to BBC
 
2014-02-19 04:31:10 PM  

FarkedOver: LewDux: FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: fascism

FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi

FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.

FarkedOver: Nazi Party

FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis


FarkedOver: I'm just asking

And?


Nothing:D
 
2014-02-19 04:31:33 PM  

LewDux: Hang


LewDux: believers

 
2014-02-19 04:33:00 PM  

Farkin' Uke: He's pointing out that nobody buys your "just asking questions" bullshiat, Glenn...


It's really easy to make that leap with a snippet of a post.
 
2014-02-19 04:33:25 PM  

LewDux: FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: fascism

FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi

FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.

FarkedOver: Nazi Party

FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis


FarkedOver: I'm just asking


LOL
 
2014-02-19 04:34:22 PM  

USCLaw2010: President Ukraine just announced truce with opposition according to BBC


SO I guess sacking the defence chief didn't have the desired effect. But it could be a trap

ackbar.jpg
 
2014-02-19 04:37:15 PM  

Keith Dudemeister: Which side are Zakhaev and the ultranationalists on?


IDK but bring back Russian Al Bundy (Zhirinovsky)
 
2014-02-19 04:38:10 PM  
"We hold the Ukrainian government primarily responsible for making sure that it is dealing with peaceful protesters in an appropriate way, that the Ukrainian people are able to assemble and speak freely about their interests without fear of repression,"

Huh?  Is he trying to be ironic or something?  This is how we deal with the mildest/peaceful of protest in the US:

cryptome.org
If the protesters (hell even one or two) acted like they are there it would look the same except the fires would be from burning bodies ignited by the hail of incendiary devices used to 'disperse' the crowd.

Lethal force would be authorized the *moment* an officer was seriously injured, and we know how our cops roll when lethal force is authorized.
 
2014-02-19 04:38:43 PM  

Confabulat: traylor: Suddenly, the protesters are the bad guys?

Hey mods, this thread started off stupid. Can't we have an other thread instead?

Bioshock Infinite taught me that both sides are bad.


Dwarf Fortress taught me that all problems can be solved with the direct application of magma.
 
2014-02-19 04:40:03 PM  

LewDux: FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: fascism

FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi

FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.

FarkedOver: Nazi Party

FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis


FarkedOver: I'm just asking


Pwned
 
2014-02-19 04:42:27 PM  

under a mountain: Pwned


Damn, the bar is set low these days for "pwning"
 
2014-02-19 04:43:23 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: He's pointing out that nobody buys your "just asking questions" bullshiat, Glenn...

It's really easy to make that leap with a snippet of a post.


You and maggie have both been falsely pushing this "Neo Nazi Fascist protest" bullshiat all day! -there is no leap being made here.  Then again, you may be Newting us with "People that directly quote me are lying" in which case I'm not even going to bother with you anymore...
 
2014-02-19 04:45:03 PM  

Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: He's pointing out that nobody buys your "just asking questions" bullshiat, Glenn...

It's really easy to make that leap with a snippet of a post.

You and maggie have both been falsely pushing this "Neo Nazi Fascist protest" bullshiat all day! -there is no leap being made here.  Then again, you may be Newting us with "People that directly quote me are lying" in which case I'm not even going to bother with you anymore...


So if I did a google search for neo-nazi involvement in this protest, I would get zero search results?
 
2014-02-19 04:51:57 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: He's pointing out that nobody buys your "just asking questions" bullshiat, Glenn...

It's really easy to make that leap with a snippet of a post.

You and maggie have both been falsely pushing this "Neo Nazi Fascist protest" bullshiat all day! -there is no leap being made here.  Then again, you may be Newting us with "People that directly quote me are lying" in which case I'm not even going to bother with you anymore...

So if I did a google search for neo-nazi involvement in this protest, I would get zero search results?


I'm sure there is a nonzero number of left-handed chicken farmers in the crowd as well.  Are you dense enough to start referring to this as a Left-Handed Chicken Farmer Protest?
 
2014-02-19 04:53:10 PM  

thisisyourbrainonFark: [img.fark.net image 850x565]

From yesterday's thread.


Hey, photos of my 30th birthday party.
 
2014-02-19 04:57:43 PM  

Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: He's pointing out that nobody buys your "just asking questions" bullshiat, Glenn...

It's really easy to make that leap with a snippet of a post.

You and maggie have both been falsely pushing this "Neo Nazi Fascist protest" bullshiat all day! -there is no leap being made here.  Then again, you may be Newting us with "People that directly quote me are lying" in which case I'm not even going to bother with you anymore...


I'll try and find the links from yesterday. The guys have black spray painted Russian helmets with a red emblem stamped on the side. Their are videos of the shooting riffles at the cops.
And no I have no idea of what kind of support they have but in revolutions the crazys can end up in charge.
 
2014-02-19 04:59:04 PM  

LewDux: FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: fascism

FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi

FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.

FarkedOver: Nazi Party

FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis


FarkedOver: I'm just asking


He's a Marxist anti-capitalist.

/says so on his profile
 
2014-02-19 05:03:47 PM  
 
2014-02-19 05:07:11 PM  
farm4.staticflickr.com

That's a good find especially if you're in a corrupt police office that you've just taken over.

/(I just recognize the emblem, I don't know what the text means)
 
2014-02-19 05:12:51 PM  
 
2014-02-19 05:14:23 PM  

flexflint: [farm4.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

That's a good find especially if you're in a corrupt police office that you've just taken over.

/(I just recognize the emblem, I don't know what the text means)


"Prosecutor's Office / Ternopil Oblast"
 
2014-02-19 05:15:27 PM  

flexflint: [farm4.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

That's a good find especially if you're in a corrupt police office that you've just taken over.

/(I just recognize the emblem, I don't know what the text means)


Prosecutor for the Ternopil' Oblast (an Oblast is roughly analogous to an American state).
 
2014-02-19 05:16:11 PM  

traylor: flexflint: [farm4.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

That's a good find especially if you're in a corrupt police office that you've just taken over.

/(I just recognize the emblem, I don't know what the text means)

"Prosecutor's Office / Ternopil Oblast"


You win this round, drug!
 
2014-02-19 05:20:10 PM  

zerkalo: traylor: flexflint: [farm4.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

That's a good find especially if you're in a corrupt police office that you've just taken over.

/(I just recognize the emblem, I don't know what the text means)

"Prosecutor's Office / Ternopil Oblast"

You win this round, drug!


Looks like I'm not drunk enough. Don't blame me I'm working on it.
 
2014-02-19 05:22:25 PM  

flexflint: He's a Marxist anti-capitalist.

/says so on his profile


I know. That's why he's panicking
upload.wikimedia.orgupload.wikimedia.org

I call it "teabagisation"
 
2014-02-19 05:22:56 PM  

flexflint: [farm4.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

That's a good find especially if you're in a corrupt police office that you've just taken over.

/(I just recognize the emblem, I don't know what the text means)


The weapon is called a булава (boolava) and it's now an ornamental mace but it was used in the region back in the day (particularly nasty as the spikes would break off in the head or face of your opponent if you were using a wooden one).  I brought one back for my buddy from my trip as he had just bought his first place and I gave it to him as his first "security system" :D

Where they are sitting is the Prosecutor's Office of Ternopyl Oblast in Western Ukraine
 
2014-02-19 05:23:24 PM  
Solidarity fires in Vilnius, Lithuania (use Google Translate; you used to be able to directly link to the translated page, but that doesn't work anymore, don't know why, sorry). Apparently it was broadcast live on the big screen at Maidan. (very dusty in here)

/traylor and zerkalo: thanks! ;)
 
2014-02-19 05:23:34 PM  

traylor: zerkalo: traylor: flexflint: [farm4.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

That's a good find especially if you're in a corrupt police office that you've just taken over.

/(I just recognize the emblem, I don't know what the text means)

"Prosecutor's Office / Ternopil Oblast"

You win this round, drug!

Looks like I'm not drunk enough. Don't blame me I'm working on it.


горілка  all 'round then!
 
2014-02-19 05:30:38 PM  
FarkedOver

You're just salty that they tore down that Lenin statue.


tinfoil-hat maggie
"The fact of the matter is we have made very clear to the Ukrainian government that it is their responsibility to allow for people (to) protest," Rhodes said.

"Peaceful protest" means "protest we agree with". People tried protesting in America two and a half years ago and everybody got arrested.

If there's one lesson from Euromaidan, and Tahrir for that matter, it's this: If you want your government to pay attention, you're going to have to set a whole lot of police on fire. Sorry moralizing pacifists, it's farking empirical at this point.
 
2014-02-19 05:32:01 PM  
Good news, everyone! Cheney says we'll be treated as liberators, and the war will pay for itself!
 
2014-02-19 05:32:27 PM  

Farkin' Uke: The weapon is called a булава (boolava)


Thanks for the info, much appreciated! In my language, it's called a "goedendag", literally: a "goodday" :).
 
2014-02-19 05:38:45 PM  

LewDux: flexflint: He's a Marxist anti-capitalist.

/says so on his profile

I know. That's why he's panicking
[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x153][upload.wikimedia.org image 351x154]


Lol.
 
2014-02-19 05:41:38 PM  
Just a heads-up: there's a third thread, http://www.fark.com/comments/8148982
 
2014-02-19 05:44:00 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: It's Europe versus Russia. Almost the Cold War battle our countries all longed for but now it's satellite conflict. I'm betting on Russia. It looks like Europe won't gain a toe-hold in Asia.


Ukraine isn't in Asia, Einstein.
 
2014-02-19 05:49:14 PM  
@FarkedOver - This is what the people you support do.

pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-02-19 05:49:18 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: He's pointing out that nobody buys your "just asking questions" bullshiat, Glenn...

It's really easy to make that leap with a snippet of a post.

You and maggie have both been falsely pushing this "Neo Nazi Fascist protest" bullshiat all day! -there is no leap being made here.  Then again, you may be Newting us with "People that directly quote me are lying" in which case I'm not even going to bother with you anymore...

So if I did a google search for neo-nazi involvement in this protest, I would get zero search results?



beer brewers involvement in ukraine protests

about 30,200,000 results

those are some sympathetic protesters
 
2014-02-19 05:56:02 PM  

Three Crooked Squirrels: I gotta say, as much of a mess as this is, with the loss of life already incurred, with the loss of life that is sure to happen in the future, with the stamping out of human rights, etc., etc., I am just fine with sitting on the sidelines.


Protesters probably won't like your position, but they will fight till death for your right to sit on sidelines
 
2014-02-19 06:01:39 PM  

danzak: Twilight Farkle: BBC reporting armed forces head Gen. Volodymyr Zamana has been dismissed. Replacement is Adm. Yuriy Ilyin. EU pondering sanctions.

That is scary.  Only reason to do this would be to put someone in who has no problem moving against the protesters.  If this happens, I'd expect at least some factions to break apart and support the protesters leading to a serious escalation.  I expect they would only mobilize from the East though, there were tanks on the way in December too, not sure what happened but they never made it to Kyiv.


Switching out the chief of staff is one thing, but, what is important is what the unit commanders do.  They may say "NO!", and then you find it's a little harder to replace someone who has, say, a regiment backing him up.  You can send a replacement and the unit commander can say, "Hi, welcome to the stockade."
 
2014-02-19 06:04:05 PM  

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


The Stupid Train pulled into the station, right on schedule.  And the first one off, is FarkedOver, as usual.
 
2014-02-19 06:06:44 PM  

flexflint: LewDux: FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: fascism

FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi

FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.

FarkedOver: Nazi Party

FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis


FarkedOver: I'm just asking

He's a Marxist anti-capitalist.

/says so on his profile


He's a creation who gets violent when you rub his face in his archaic and failed beliefs
 
2014-02-19 07:31:31 PM  

LewDux: FarkedOver: neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: fascism

FarkedOver: right-wing neo-nazi groups

FarkedOver: Protestors who happen to be nazi

FarkedOver: Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.

FarkedOver: Nazi Party

FarkedOver: Neo-Nazis


FarkedOver: I'm just asking


I'd just like to point out that this also further demonstrates my point.  If we do not look deeper instead of just seeing the superficial first take then that is a problem.  What LewDux points out here is that we can contort and conform a message to suit our own personal needs.  I'm not supporting the Ukrainian government and not supporting the protesters.  There's enough bullshiat to go around on both sides.  If you all want to assume this protest is just on all fronts, by all means.... go right ahead.  You all do so at your own detriment.

RanDomino: FarkedOver

You're just salty that they tore down that Lenin statue.


tinfoil-hat maggie
"The fact of the matter is we have made very clear to the Ukrainian government that it is their responsibility to allow for people (to) protest," Rhodes said.

"Peaceful protest" means "protest we agree with". People tried protesting in America two and a half years ago and everybody got arrested.

If there's one lesson from Euromaidan, and Tahrir for that matter, it's this: If you want your government to pay attention, you're going to have to set a whole lot of police on fire. Sorry moralizing pacifists, it's farking empirical at this point.


Rann, I agree with you 9 times out of 10.  I can only assume you've been reading the anarchist perspective coming out of Ukraine.  I know I have, and I know the intimidation from the right amongst the protesters is cause for concern. This is something anarchists and communists would unite on.
 
2014-02-19 07:41:37 PM  
FarkedOver

Let me show you your Marxism. Your Marxism, let me show you it: http://youtu.be/d50uu5EAvm8
 
2014-02-19 07:49:13 PM  

flexflint: FarkedOver

Let me show you your Marxism. Your Marxism, let me show you it: http://youtu.be/d50uu5EAvm8


Blocked at work. Care to describe the video briefly?
 
2014-02-19 07:53:31 PM  
I doubt Jewish youth would be marching with the protesters if there was a neo-nazi movement within (http://www.jta.org/2013/12/08/news-opinion/world/young-jews-take-par t- in-ukrainian-protests-along-with-ultranationalists )
In fact, there has been some great support from the Jewish community for the protests.

Farked Over, you also seem to think that the gov't is responding to violence initiated by the protesters and are in some way justified in doing so.  The exact opposite has been true.  Every act of violence has been started by gov't forces, starting with the Nov 30 beatings (when there were about 300 protesters).  Google the sequence of events and the violent flare ups as a result.  The Maidan protesters have been amazingly restrained.  I've watched the feeds for 2.5 months now (I have a crush on Ruslana :)) and the protesters have fed and sometimes even treated young soldiers of the Interior Army.  There have always been calls for restraint from the Maidan.  All viiolence has started with Berkut attacks and titushky attacking random people
 
2014-02-19 07:55:06 PM  

FarkedOver: NEDM: FarkedOver: NEDM: FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.

Yes, it's the Far Right who is responsible for those government troops machine-gunning a peaceful group in that video posted upthread.

This has been going on for a lot longer than this week.  When the state has been met with violence before, they will respond with violence.  This is just how it is.  I'm not condoning it, it's just how it farking is.

It sure farking sounds like you're condoning it because you don't like the people protesting, despite farking everyone telling you that the NeoNazis aren't even a significant minority in the protests.  And, of course, despite multiple people showing you that the issue has split Ukraine down the middle you're still spouting off how it's "not a popular movement" and "doesn't have the support of the Ukrainians".

I don't mind protesting.  The motivation of the protests is what is key.  Everyone has not told me Neo-Nazis aren't a significant minority. I'd say only a significant minority of posts here suggest that. I'd say that the people that claim the ultra-right groups aren't a vocal, disruptive, violent and influential minority are being disingenuous and not aware of the reality of the situation.  Split down the middle does not equal popular movement or support of the Ukrainian people.


Dude, when did you get the job with RT?
 
2014-02-19 07:59:05 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: FarkedOver: NEDM: FarkedOver: The violent tendencies of the far right groups is what is creating this toxic event.

Yes, it's the Far Right who is responsible for those government troops machine-gunning a peaceful group in that video posted upthread.

This has been going on for a lot longer than this week.  When the state has been met with violence before, they will respond with violence.  This is just how it is.  I'm not condoning it, it's just how it farking is.

It sure farking sounds like you're condoning it because you don't like the people protesting, despite farking everyone telling you that the NeoNazis aren't even a significant minority in the protests.  And, of course, despite multiple people showing you that the issue has split Ukraine down the middle you're still spouting off how it's "not a popular movement" and "doesn't have the support of the Ukrainians".

I don't mind protesting.  The motivation of the protests is what is key.  Everyone has not told me Neo-Nazis aren't a significant minority. I'd say only a significant minority of posts here suggest that. I'd say that the people that claim the ultra-right groups aren't a vocal, disruptive, violent and influential minority are being disingenuous and not aware of the reality of the situation.  Split down the middle does not equal popular movement or support of the Ukrainian people.

Dude, when did you get the job with RT?


Do you have evidence or are you one in on this dogpile?
 
2014-02-19 08:01:53 PM  

danzak: I doubt Jewish youth would be marching with the protesters if there was a neo-nazi movement within (http://www.jta.org/2013/12/08/news-opinion/world/young-jews-take-par t- in-ukrainian-protests-along-with-ultranationalists )
In fact, there has been some great support from the Jewish community for the protests.

Farked Over, you also seem to think that the gov't is responding to violence initiated by the protesters and are in some way justified in doing so.  The exact opposite has been true.  Every act of violence has been started by gov't forces, starting with the Nov 30 beatings (when there were about 300 protesters).  Google the sequence of events and the violent flare ups as a result.  The Maidan protesters have been amazingly restrained.  I've watched the feeds for 2.5 months now (I have a crush on Ruslana :)) and the protesters have fed and sometimes even treated young soldiers of the Interior Army.  There have always been calls for restraint from the Maidan.  All viiolence has started with Berkut attacks and titushky attacking random people


You seem to think.... I am not advocating violence against peaceful protesters.  I am not advocating for violence against the state.  I am advocating against violence toward those predisposed to violence.  The right-wing on the ground amongst the protesters.  They need to be smashed furiously into the ground.  They need to be smashed by the protesters themselves or the state.  I don't care who does it but the nationalist/fascist faction needs to be snuffed out permanently.
 
2014-02-19 08:03:30 PM  

zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?


I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.
 
2014-02-19 08:04:07 PM  
Checkout the peaceful protesters with guns.
Link
From yesterdays thread.
 
2014-02-19 08:07:42 PM  

FarkedOver: under a mountain: Pwned

Damn, the bar is set low these days for "pwning"


You managed to bang your head on it.
 
2014-02-19 08:08:30 PM  
There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg
 
2014-02-19 08:10:53 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: under a mountain: Pwned

Damn, the bar is set low these days for "pwning"

You managed to bang your head on it.


ok?
 
2014-02-19 08:16:21 PM  
Ukraine's far-right Svoboda party hold torch-lit Kiev march
From that article: Some of those marching on Wednesday did so in the uniform of a Ukrainian division of the German army in World War Two, AP reports.

Ukrainians veer toward right-wing nationalism
FTA: Few Ukrainians are fond of their current "corrupt dictator." Yet their swing toward the opposition will serve them no better. The Svoboda Party holds 10 percent of parliament and only just removed its Nazi insignia.

http://www.academia.edu/2481420/_The_Return_of_the_Ukrainian_Far_Rig ht _The_Case_of_VO_Svoboda_in_Ruth_Wodak_and_John_E._Richardson_eds._Anal yzing_Fascist_Discourse_European_Fascism_in_Talk_and_Text_London_and_N ew_York_Routledge_2013_228-255
 
2014-02-19 08:22:09 PM  
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-divided-over-wwii-legacy-100702056.html

This is from August 2013..... Ukrainians that took up arms with Nazi Germany were honored by some in the government and by a lot of nationalist parties.... please, someone defend joining the SS and honoring a brave person's sacrifice for fighting on behalf of the SS.
 
2014-02-19 08:22:11 PM  

FarkedOver: flexflint: FarkedOver

Let me show you your Marxism. Your Marxism, let me show you it: http://youtu.be/d50uu5EAvm8

Blocked at work. Care to describe the video briefly?


It shows what happens when you let lunatics and hooligans do the dirty work, because history repeats itself. See the Basij in Iran, the violent thugs in Egypt, etcetera.

From here, unlinkable: https://www.facebook.com/gela.turabelidze.1/posts/10203322700849307?st ream_ref=5 , "Street fights in Kiev. The Maidan "Self-defense forces" fighting "titushki" from Kharkov. The titushki were shooting a pistol and using homemade explosives filled with nails. This is a nice video to watch after you see the "Titushki" thugs beating up peaceful protesters. "
 
2014-02-19 08:23:26 PM  

flexflint: FarkedOver: flexflint: FarkedOver

Let me show you your Marxism. Your Marxism, let me show you it: http://youtu.be/d50uu5EAvm8

Blocked at work. Care to describe the video briefly?

It shows what happens when you let lunatics and hooligans do the dirty work, because history repeats itself. See the Basij in Iran, the violent thugs in Egypt, etcetera.

From here, unlinkable: https://www.facebook.com/gela.turabelidze.1/posts/10203322700849307?st ream_ref=5 , "Street fights in Kiev. The Maidan "Self-defense forces" fighting "titushki" from Kharkov. The titushki were shooting a pistol and using homemade explosives filled with nails. This is a nice video to watch after you see the "Titushki" thugs beating up peaceful protesters. "


That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.
 
2014-02-19 08:29:38 PM  

FarkedOver: That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.


It's sorta funny Marx is sorta like Jesus everyone feel strongly one way or another about what they said but so few people ever bothered to read or follow what was actually said.

/Now I'm gonna get flamed.
 
2014-02-19 08:30:35 PM  

FarkedOver: There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg


Jeezus man, you're nuts. 
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right?  I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.
 
2014-02-19 08:31:25 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.

It's sorta funny Marx is sorta like Jesus everyone feel strongly one way or another about what they said but so few people ever bothered to read or follow what was actually said.

/Now I'm gonna get flamed.


You're entering a world of hurt.... I'm sorry :(
 
2014-02-19 08:33:07 PM  

danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.


I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29
 
2014-02-19 08:37:53 PM  

FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.

It's sorta funny Marx is sorta like Jesus everyone feel strongly one way or another about what they said but so few people ever bothered to read or follow what was actually said.

/Now I'm gonna get flamed.

You're entering a world of hurt.... I'm sorry :(


Meh nothin' better to do : )

www.interpretermag.com
"Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.
 
2014-02-19 08:43:49 PM  

FarkedOver: flexflint: FarkedOver

Let me show you your Marxism. Your Marxism, let me show you it: http://youtu.be/d50uu5EAvm8

Blocked at work. Care to describe the video briefly?


Wait, you have a job?  I thought you would be busy spending your day haranguing the masses.  Or is that on weekends only?
 
2014-02-19 08:44:58 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: flexflint: FarkedOver

Let me show you your Marxism. Your Marxism, let me show you it: http://youtu.be/d50uu5EAvm8

Blocked at work. Care to describe the video briefly?

Wait, you have a job?  I thought you would be busy spending your day haranguing the masses.  Or is that on weekends only?


I do what I can when I can. Most people do.
 
2014-02-19 08:45:08 PM  

FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29


From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945
 
2014-02-19 08:45:59 PM  

Confabulat: My 78-year-old Ukrainian mother had no idea about any of this when I talked to her yesterday. I wasn't surprised, she's 78 years old and not always up on current events, so I explained a bit about what I knew. Her father fought against the Bolsheviks so I made some comment about how history always repeats itself to which she replied, "Oh yeah, like Matthew McConaughy said in True Detective last week, time is like a flat circle" and I immediately had to reassess everything I know about my mother.


The fool doesn't even understand that time is a cube. You are right to question her.
 
2014-02-19 08:46:57 PM  

danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945


From my news article in August 2013, they were being honored..... That's a problem.
 
2014-02-19 08:47:35 PM  

FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.


That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.
 
2014-02-19 08:49:14 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.


Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.
 
2014-02-19 08:49:41 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.


If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.
 
2014-02-19 08:50:40 PM  

NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.


Lviv is also the same place where the Ukrainian SS division was "honored" in August.
 
2014-02-19 08:51:01 PM  

danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945


Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms
 
2014-02-19 08:56:07 PM  

FarkedOver: There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg


So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis?  Now be very clear, this is what you are saying?  Oh yeah, citation please!
 
2014-02-19 08:57:34 PM  

NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.


Thy got the "artillery" when the army backed down and left the city instead of fighting probably why that guy got sacked.
 
2014-02-19 08:59:41 PM  

zimbomba63: So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis? Now be very clear, this is what you are saying? Oh yeah, citation please!


I have absolutely zero problem with anyone who killed or imprisoned nazis or their collaborators in the aftermath of WW2.
 
2014-02-19 09:00:51 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.


Honey, those people have been in a long, dark winter for decades. What did you expect them to do? They started out peaceful, and it didn't work; what would your solution be?

Besides, those guns were probably given to them by the Ukrainian artillery regiments.
 
2014-02-19 09:02:24 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg

So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis?  Now be very clear, this is what you are saying?  Oh yeah, citation please!


Yea man that's why East Germany had no Germans left alive once the Soviets got there.

/Moran.
 
2014-02-19 09:02:42 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.

Thy got the "artillery" when the army backed down and left the city instead of fighting probably why that guy got sacked.


No, that's not "probably why that guy got sacked" ... .
 
2014-02-19 09:07:15 PM  
Farmed Over, have a read here. This showed up on my FB feed

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-a n d-ukraine/
 
2014-02-19 09:08:03 PM  
Sorry, remove the spaces, don't know why they're added
 
2014-02-19 09:08:06 PM  

flexflint: tinfoil-hat maggie: NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.

Thy got the "artillery" when the army backed down and left the city instead of fighting probably why that guy got sacked.

No, that's not "probably why that guy got sacked" ... .


Well thanks for explaining thing to me...
 
2014-02-19 09:09:26 PM  

danzak: Sorry, remove the spaces, don't know why they're added


Learn to link it's easy really
 
2014-02-19 09:10:01 PM  

FarkedOver: NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.

Lviv is also the same place where the Ukrainian SS division was "honored" in August.


And?  Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?
 
2014-02-19 09:11:08 PM  

danzak: Farmed Over, have a read here. This showed up on my FB feed

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-a n d-ukraine/


Thanks :) I will check it out.  Gracias!
 
2014-02-19 09:14:29 PM  

NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?


Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.
 
2014-02-19 09:14:55 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: flexflint: tinfoil-hat maggie: NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.

Thy got the "artillery" when the army backed down and left the city instead of fighting probably why that guy got sacked.

No, that's not "probably why that guy got sacked" ... .

Well thanks for explaining thing to me...


http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-f eb -19-live-updates-337098.html
"Head of the armed forces Volodymyr Zamana near Kyiv Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych replaced Zamana on Feb. 19 after announcing a new "anti-terror" operation in response to the country's deadliest violence since its post-Soviet independence. Zamana was known to have publically disagreed with Yanukovych at the start of the month when the embattled Ukrainian leader first considered imposing a state of emergency in response to the wave of pro-EU protests gripping Kiev and other parts of the country."

He wasn't the first to openly question Yanu's decisions, and if things deteriorate, he certainly won't be the last.
 
2014-02-19 09:18:53 PM  

NEDM: FarkedOver: NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.

Lviv is also the same place where the Ukrainian SS division was "honored" in August.

And?  Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?


NEDM: FarkedOver: NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.

Lviv is also the same place where the Ukrainian SS division was "honored" in August.

And?  Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?


I don't believe they've named a government yet.

news.bbcimg.co.uk
Jan 12014, Kiev march
 
2014-02-19 09:22:02 PM  

flexflint: tinfoil-hat maggie: flexflint: tinfoil-hat maggie: NEDM: tinfoil-hat maggie: "Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Yes, Lyiv has declared independence yesterday.  Considering how the government has been acting, it's perfectly understandable for them to have deployed artillery.

Thy got the "artillery" when the army backed down and left the city instead of fighting probably why that guy got sacked.

No, that's not "probably why that guy got sacked" ... .

Well thanks for explaining thing to me...

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-f eb -19-live-updates-337098.html
"Head of the armed forces Volodymyr Zamana near Kyiv Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych replaced Zamana on Feb. 19 after announcing a new "anti-terror" operation in response to the country's deadliest violence since its post-Soviet independence. Zamana was known to have publically disagreed with Yanukovych at the start of the month when the embattled Ukrainian leader first considered imposing a state of emergency in response to the wave of pro-EU protests gripping Kiev and other parts of the country."

He wasn't the first to openly question Yanu's decisions, and if things deteriorate, he certainly won't be the last.


That's beter I like citations and supported positions, thanks.
 
2014-02-19 09:22:45 PM  

FarkedOver: There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg


If that's what it takes to have a serious "Nazi

tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.

It's sorta funny Marx is sorta like Jesus everyone feel strongly one way or another about what they said but so few people ever bothered to read or follow what was actually said.

/Now I'm gonna get flamed.

You're entering a world of hurt.... I'm sorry :(

Meh nothin' better to do : )

[www.interpretermag.com image 620x382]
"Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.


Technically, maggie, they're not protesters. They're the new state's defense forces.

They were protesters for MONTHS. Peacefully, at that, until people started disappearing, women started getting raped, and protesters started getting shot.

Nonviolent protest refers to both sides of the equation. Once the state starts getting violent, it's a good idea for the people to start getting violent right back.
 
2014-02-19 09:23:53 PM  

iq_in_binary: FarkedOver: There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg

If that's what it takes to have a serious "Nazitinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.

It's sorta funny Marx is sorta like Jesus everyone feel strongly one way or another about what they said but so few people ever bothered to read or follow what was actually said.

/Now I'm gonna get flamed.

You're entering a world of hurt.... I'm sorry :(

Meh nothin' better to do : )

[www.interpretermag.com image 620x382]
"Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.

Technically, maggie, they're not protesters. They're the new state's defense forces.

They were protesters for MONTHS. Peacefully, at that, until people started disappearing, women started getting raped, and protesters started getting shot.

Nonviolent protest refers to both sides of the equation. Once the state starts getting violent, it's a good idea for the people to start getting violent right back.

Dammit

 
2014-02-19 09:25:16 PM  

FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.


Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.
 
2014-02-19 09:28:03 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945

Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms


Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...
 
2014-02-19 09:29:05 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.


Where did he say that? Are you mental?
 
2014-02-19 09:29:08 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.


No, I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly you're trying to say/accomplish other than shiatting on my posts without actually backing shiat up.  That's all.
 
2014-02-19 09:36:40 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: [snip]

Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...


That's ... beautiful. Also:

"The idea of creating a distinctly Ukrainian military force came to fruition soon after the outbreak of the German-Soviet war and was widely supported by the Ukrainian population in Western Ukraine. In the spring of 1943 it was reinforced by the viewpoint that the Ukrainians urgently needed to establish a nucleus of Ukrainian power, and to build it up by whatever means possible, before the Nazi collapse. It was argued that only if and when Ukrainians become a power factor, could they expect recognition from the Western powers."

That's ... interesting.
 
2014-02-19 09:38:08 PM  

iq_in_binary: Technically, maggie, they're not protesters. They're the new state's defense forces.

They were protesters for MONTHS. Peacefully, at that, until people started disappearing, women started getting raped, and protesters started getting shot.

Nonviolent protest refers to both sides of the equation. Once the state starts getting violent, it's a good idea for the people to start getting violent right back.


Okay look I know this crap has been going for months. I don't think either side has been peaceful. Occupy Wall Street got clobbered because that didn't stock up on Molotov cocktails
APC getting molotoved but really we all wanna act shocked at mean old governments but the fact is if NAFTA (or any other US trade deal) got killed and people acted like this they would be in a world of shiat.
 
2014-02-19 09:38:29 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945

Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms

Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...


Especially knowing they would be killed once the soviets advanced, regardless of what they did. Don't fight, you die as a coward or deserter or fight and get killed for being a traitor. Oh, and your family too.
 
2014-02-19 09:39:36 PM  
In this thread people are defending an SS division.
 
2014-02-19 09:41:48 PM  
It would appear that my entire post got borked, so I'll try my best to recreate it but regarding FarkedOver's assertions that this is an entirely rightwing Neo Nazi movement, I have not seen one poster claim that there is no trace of the vile Nazis whatsoever in Ukraine.  Like most European countries, yes, this scum does exist and it does have a slight minority control.  Why you are being belittled is because your argument holds as much water as some European claiming that The United States is A Tea Party Nation.  Of course, I would prefer that someone use one of their three genie wishes to blink those assholes out of existence, but in some bizarro turn of events, you believe the burden of proof to be on the protester supporters to provide evidence to the contrary of your baseless claim that the whole crowd is Svoboda.  Furthermore, I have seen no indication that you or Maggie are aware that Свобода (Svoboda) is NOT just a proper name.  You may be conflating the party with the word itself.  Свобода directly translates to "freedom" so it may very well be that every time any protester is talking about the noun freedom, you get to stroke your chin and sagely nod, "Ah, yes, Neo Nazis"....
 
2014-02-19 09:44:08 PM  

Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver's assertions that this is an entirely rightwing Neo Nazi movement,


Never said that. You premise from the get go is flawed.  But I would love for you to keep telling me about the heroics of the SS.
 
2014-02-19 09:46:06 PM  
Uke, read the link I included above. Good article to the discussion going on now
 
2014-02-19 09:46:13 PM  

FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.


Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...
 
2014-02-19 09:48:01 PM  

FarkedOver: zimbomba63: So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis? Now be very clear, this is what you are saying? Oh yeah, citation please!

I have absolutely zero problem with anyone who killed or imprisoned nazis or their collaborators in the aftermath of WW2.


But you said,

"I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine."

So the Soviets "...prosecuted ZERO people for warm(sic) crimes that occurred during WW2.." that were "...committed by the Nazi war machine."  German Nazis, Ukrainian collaborators, nobody got punished, ZERO.  That's what your saying?  Man, I never knew that the Soviets were such "forgive and forget" guys.
You learn something knew every day.
 
2014-02-19 09:49:19 PM  

FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.


History is complicated.  You're acting as if everything exists in a vacuum and that division came about because Ukrainians wanted to get their Nazi on.  It's not as if the Soviets had tried to genocide them for not being properly subservient ten years earlier, and it's not as if they were jumping at any chance to escape that regime.  Oh.  Wait.

You put people in a horrible situation with unthinkable options, they're going to take any chance that looks to be even a little better to try and get out.  Yes, the Nazis were bad.  But so were the Soviets.

/regardless, that division was never accused of any war crimes, and was in fact cleared of them as a unit.  It's not as if we're talking about the 5th Concentration Camp Guard division, here.
 
2014-02-19 09:49:44 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.

It's sorta funny Marx is sorta like Jesus everyone feel strongly one way or another about what they said but so few people ever bothered to read or follow what was actually said.

/Now I'm gonna get flamed.

You're entering a world of hurt.... I'm sorry :(

Meh nothin' better to do : )

[www.interpretermag.com image 620x382]
img.fark.net
"Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.


Meh. I have to post my comment in this thread too.

85 mm divisional gun D-44

img.fark.net

It took me a while to find it. These guns were produced between 1945-1953. I doubt that they are used anywhere today, these type of guns were replaced by self-propelled guns a long ago. Maybe similar towed guns are used in Best Korea?

I guess they were towed there form a military museum. Even if you have the proper ammunition, they are not easy to fire. They have the stopping power of scrap metal of similar weight.

And BTW, those guns are field artillery guns, not antitank guns.
 
2014-02-19 09:51:47 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver's assertions that this is an entirely rightwing Neo Nazi movement,

Never said that. You premise from the get go is flawed.  But I would love for you to keep telling me about the heroics of the SS.


Again, you are looking at it as fighting WITH someone as opposed to fighting AGAINST someone else.  In your opinion, they should have taken up arms for Stalin and that would have been "The Noble Cause".  It's no biggie that The Holodomor* just happened in 1932-33....

*Since you seem unaware of this event AT ALL, I won't even bother replying to you anymore as you do not seem to have even the basest foundation for holding a conversation on this topic
 
2014-02-19 09:52:48 PM  

zimbomba63: So the Soviets "...prosecuted ZERO people for warm(sic) crimes that occurred during WW2.." that were "...committed by the Nazi war machine." German Nazis, Ukrainian collaborators, nobody got punished, ZERO. That's what your saying? Man, I never knew that the Soviets were such "forgive and forget" guys.
You learn something knew every day.


Just because I'm a Marxist doesn't mean I will defend every single action of the USSR.  The history between the Russian Soviet Republic and the Ukrainian Soviet Republic isn't something we can really delve into and have meaningful dialogue about in this fark thread.  Especially with you, considering your hostile stance toward everything I've said.
 
2014-02-19 09:55:06 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945

Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms

Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...


Oh please you self righteous ninny.I know the history you misogynist prick The Uks originally tought the Germans were there saviors from Stalin. Yea, Stalin's whole co-op farm thing farked everything.Millions starved or were killed becuase they wouldn't go with the new progrom.

Nazi tanks roll in mos Uks are happy that the Russ are losing. Well most of them were supportive till one sniper could get a village wiped out. Though still want to pretend none of that happened that old men are marching around in old SS uniforms this thing is still backed by the Ortho church so do you think they support gay marriage any more that the Russians? Do you think Uks over there a any less prejudiced the blacks over there?

Other than some translations I haven't seen any fact from you.
/Just sayin'
 
2014-02-19 09:55:27 PM  

Farkin' Uke: Again, you are looking at it as fighting WITH someone as opposed to fighting AGAINST someone else. In your opinion, they should have taken up arms for Stalin and that would have been "The Noble Cause". It's no biggie that The Holodomor* just happened in 1932-33....

*Since you seem unaware of this event AT ALL, I won't even bother replying to you anymore as you do not seem to have even the basest foundation for holding a conversation on this topic


I'm not going to defend Stalin's failed collectivization policies that meant the death of millions of Ukrainians.  I'm not a Stalinist :)
 
2014-02-19 10:00:07 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: Again, you are looking at it as fighting WITH someone as opposed to fighting AGAINST someone else. In your opinion, they should have taken up arms for Stalin and that would have been "The Noble Cause". It's no biggie that The Holodomor* just happened in 1932-33....

*Since you seem unaware of this event AT ALL, I won't even bother replying to you anymore as you do not seem to have even the basest foundation for holding a conversation on this topic

I'm not going to defend Stalin's failed collectivization policies that meant the death of millions of Ukrainians.  I'm not a Stalinist :)


As an addendum, I would suggest that if the Russian Soviets had left the Ukrainian black army lead by Makhno alone, I think socialism could have a more positive and profound impact in Ukraine.

/Don't let Ran Domino see this ;)
 
2014-02-19 10:02:09 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg

So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis?  Now be very clear, this is what you are saying?  Oh yeah, citation please!

Yea man that's why East Germany had no Germans left alive once the Soviets got there.

/Moran.


Ah, I love to engage in a battle of wits with a worthy opponent.  So, you find it unusual that the Soviets dealt with internal collaborators and anti-Soviet factions in a different manner, than captured foreign populations?  Have you read any books on Soviet history?  And I don't mean the ones that come with pictures to color.
 
2014-02-19 10:02:40 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: Again, you are looking at it as fighting WITH someone as opposed to fighting AGAINST someone else. In your opinion, they should have taken up arms for Stalin and that would have been "The Noble Cause". It's no biggie that The Holodomor* just happened in 1932-33....

*Since you seem unaware of this event AT ALL, I won't even bother replying to you anymore as you do not seem to have even the basest foundation for holding a conversation on this topic

I'm not going to defend Stalin's failed collectivization policies that meant the death of millions of Ukrainians.  I'm not a Stalinist :)


Also look into the atrocities carried out by the soviets in Ukraine as they retreated from the German advance. My grandfathers name is on a museum plaque as a result. This was well before any type of collaboration.
 
2014-02-19 10:03:13 PM  

Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...


What was the point again?Just for clarity

Farkin' Uke: Svoboda


Nope Nazis in Ukraine
 
2014-02-19 10:05:18 PM  

FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.


(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)
 
2014-02-19 10:06:19 PM  

zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: There is a Nazi/Fascist problem in Ukraine whether you all want to admit it or not.  Svoboda  has seats in the government.  They actively support nationalism and nazism.  They honor Ukrainian citizens who joined the SS.  There is a white power movement in Ukraine whether or not you all want to admit it or not and they have an active violent presence on the ground in these protests.  I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine.  Ukraine has a Nazi problem.

dealwithit.jpg

So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis?  Now be very clear, this is what you are saying?  Oh yeah, citation please!

Yea man that's why East Germany had no Germans left alive once the Soviets got there.

/Moran.

Ah, I love to engage in a battle of wits with a worthy opponent.  So, you find it unusual that the Soviets dealt with internal collaborators and anti-Soviet factions in a different manner, than captured foreign populations?  Have you read any books on Soviet history?  And I don't mean the ones that come with pictures to color.


Oh, you are cute I'm gonna play with you.
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2014-02-19 10:07:52 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)


(cough) Hugonaughts (cough)
 
2014-02-19 10:08:09 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: danzak: FarkedOver: danzak: Jeezus man, you're nuts.
You do realize that Ukraine was part of the USSR after WW2 right? I don't think they were sheltering Nazi's from justice.

I don't make up history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

From your link:
Active 28 April 1943 - 15 April 1945

Did you think SS divisions stayed active after the war?
I've got a link at 18:16:21 that say a bunch of those old men marched in the old uniforms

Indeed!  How DARE those people not allow themselves to be murdered by the correct despot!  It is staggering that you have the gall to sit there and cluck your tongue at people that were caught between Hitler and Stalin.  You're being disingenuous implying that these people are manning ovens or firing at Brits and Americans.  Sure, you can look at it as they were fighting WITH Hitler as opposed to AGAINST Stalin (or vice versa) but the only reason to look at it from that point of view is for you to self righteously wag your finger at people that were in an IMPOSSIBLE situation.  I would say shame on you, but it appears you have none...

Oh please you self righteous ninny.I know the history you misogynist prick The Uks originally tought the Germans were there saviors from Stalin. Yea, Stalin's whole co-op farm thing farked everything.Millions starved or were killed becuase they wouldn't go with the new progrom.

Nazi tanks roll in mos Uks are happy that the Russ are losing. Well most of them were supportive till one sniper could get a village wiped out. Though still want to pretend none of that happened that old men are marching around in old SS uniforms this thing is still backed by the Ortho church so do you think they support gay marriage any more that the Russians? Do you think Uks over there a any less prejudiced the blacks over there?

Other than some translations I haven't seen any fact from you.
/Just sayin'


Misogynist? So...you don't seem to have a strong command of the English language either, let alone the Ukrainian language...

What on Earth are you misreading that you perceived any slight against women in my post?

Then you started reinforcing my point by suddenly remembering this history that I just told you.

Then you start talking about other unrelated issues which I haven't addressed at all.

Yeah, I think we're done here.  You just keep drinkin' n farkin', because I haven't presented any facts except for the history lesson and word translations that you seemed to be ignorant of on both counts.  You done showed me!
 
2014-02-19 10:10:03 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)


Actually Lenin didn't think it was the right time for Revolution.  The masses dictated change.  If the Lenin was an opportunist by offering an end to the WWI I guess he was a mean old opportunist.

I would say the western powers were the opportunists because after the revolution many allied nations that invaded (the U.S. included).  I will also mention that the Ukrainian Soviet Republic fought against this invasion.  The Russian revolution was the VERY definition of a popular movement.  Not opportunistic.  Unless of course you think feudalism is a-ok.
 
2014-02-19 10:13:47 PM  
Also zimbomba63 would you like to give me a reading list Most of the stuff I've been into lately goes back to the Tsars and well it's been awhile since I read anything on the Red revolution or Stalin. I'm old and not sure ho good my memory is.
 
2014-02-19 10:14:30 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...

What was the point again?Just for clarityFarkin' Uke: Svoboda

Nope Nazis in Ukraine


I know that being fluent in a language doesn't match a vague point from a linked GIS, but again, "Свобода" is not just a Proper Name;  It is a word and it has a definition (that is "freedom", much like every asshole tinpot dictatorship in Africa is the Democratic People's Republic of something or other).  It was just a guess that you were conflating any mention of this word with Neo Nazis.  You could be wrong for any number of other reasons as well
 
2014-02-19 10:18:17 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...

What was the point again?Just for clarityFarkin' Uke: Svoboda

Nope Nazis in Ukraine

I know that being fluent in a language doesn't match a vague point from a linked GIS, but again, "Свобода" is not just a Proper Name;  It is a word and it has a definition (that is "freedom", much like every asshole tinpot dictatorship in Africa is the Democratic People's Republic of something or other).  It was just a guess that you were conflating any mention of this word with Neo Nazis.  You could be wrong for any number of other reasons as well


I've been reading a lot of Ukrainian anarchists writings on the protests.  The chants and the slogans is a common theme that is brought up by these anarchists.  They are stating that they are vague and that it's more sloganeering, rather than having any actual substance.

/we may have gotten off on the wrong foot, but I was hoping you might be able to elaborate on that or confirm that considering your background.
 
2014-02-19 10:21:48 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...

What was the point again?Just for clarityFarkin' Uke: Svoboda

Nope Nazis in Ukraine

I know that being fluent in a language doesn't match a vague point from a linked GIS, but again, "Свобода" is not just a Proper Name;  It is a word and it has a definition (that is "freedom", much like every asshole tinpot dictatorship in Africa is the Democratic People's Republic of something or other).  It was just a guess that you were conflating any mention of this word with Neo Nazis.  You could be wrong for any number of other reasons as well

I've been reading a lot of Ukrainian anarchists writings on the protests.  The chants and the slogans is a common theme that is brought up by these anarchists.  They are stating that they are vague and that it's more sloganeering, rather than having any actual substance.

/we may have gotten off on the wrong foot, but I was hoping you might be able to elaborate on that or confirm that considering your background.


That's fair enough and I'm more than willing to start fresh.  I usually lurk and rarely post but I figured I'd be able to help people out with this topic.  I'll gladly talk about any slogans or anything you'd like.  Do you have any specific chants or slogans you want me to translate?
 
2014-02-19 10:23:06 PM  
FarkedOver
Rann, I agree with you 9 times out of 10. I can only assume you've been reading the anarchist perspective coming out of Ukraine. I know I have, and I know the intimidation from the right amongst the protesters is cause for concern. This is something anarchists and communists would unite on.

This is basically what we're going on.
In practice, it means eating popcorn while watching videos of cops being beaten and immolated.

As for Svoboda, it's not as simple as saying they're fascists. A lot of the right-wing nationalism, especially centered on Lviv, seems to have ancestry with the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, the military wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which fought against both the Communists and the Nazis. Their red-and-black flag was initially pretty confusing for a lot of anarchists, but I think for the most part everyone's been straightened out.

Anyway, it's FAR more complicated than "THEY'RE NAZIIIIISSSS!!!!!" and engaging the ENTIRE population of protesters as equivalent to a small fraction is hardly productive. The vast majority of people in any group are non-ideological. Even if they fight on the side of fascists, they might not realize it unless said fascists are waving around straight-arm salutes and goose-steppingm, and probably not even then. If the fascists are just saying "Our country is the best!" (which in Ukrainian is apparently "Slava Ukraini") and waving the flag and so on, they're hardly distinguishable from any politician. So, look, if you want to interrupt the fascists' gaining of power, you've got to figure out how to split the crowd away from them... and that's not going to be done by lumping them all together and condemning them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

Again, not so cut-and-dry:
Germans made two political concessions: It was stipulated that the division shall not be used to fight Western Allies, and would be used exclusively to "fight Bolsheviks". The other concession was in that its oath of allegiance to Hitler was conditional [11] on the fight against Bolshevism and in the fact that Christian (mostly Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and Ukrainian Orthodox) chaplains were integrated into the units and allowed to function (in the Waffen-SS, only the Bosnian division and Sturmbrigade Wallonien had a clerical presence). The latter condition was instituted at the insistence of the division's organizers in order to minimize the risk of Nazi demoralization amongst the soldiers.[12][page needed] Indeed, Nazi indoctrination was absent within the division.

Not, ideologically, fascists. Conservative nationalists.

In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Human beings generally have rational motivations, even if they are often unfortunately selfish, short-sighted, or otherwise imperfect. Very, very few people are truly evil.


zimbomba63
Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too? So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides.

It's Eastern Europe, so... basically.
 
2014-02-19 10:24:12 PM  

Farkin' Uke: That's fair enough and I'm more than willing to start fresh. I usually lurk and rarely post but I figured I'd be able to help people out with this topic. I'll gladly talk about any slogans or anything you'd like. Do you have any specific chants or slogans you want me to translate?


They were already mostly translated (poorly).  I need to find the link.  It was a rather interesting read.  The fact of the matter is if you want a real leftist perspective from the situation in Ukraine (or Russia for that matter) you don't go reading what the Communist Parties of those respective countries puts out, because it is complete garbage.  Let me try to find the link again.
 
2014-02-19 10:25:42 PM  

Farkin' Uke: Misogynist? So...you don't seem to have a strong command of the English language either, let alone the Ukrainian language...


I thick I bolded that part and yea were done here.

You're translations have been appreciated but you're commentary is silly and lacking in fact
 
2014-02-19 10:26:12 PM  

FarkedOver: Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: FarkedOver: In this thread people are defending an SS division.

Way to miss the farking point, but I am not surprised that it's coming from someone as impervious to reality as you...

What was the point again?Just for clarityFarkin' Uke: Svoboda

Nope Nazis in Ukraine

I know that being fluent in a language doesn't match a vague point from a linked GIS, but again, "Свобода" is not just a Proper Name;  It is a word and it has a definition (that is "freedom", much like every asshole tinpot dictatorship in Africa is the Democratic People's Republic of something or other).  It was just a guess that you were conflating any mention of this word with Neo Nazis.  You could be wrong for any number of other reasons as well

I've been reading a lot of Ukrainian anarchists writings on the protests.  The chants and the slogans is a common theme that is brought up by these anarchists.  They are stating that they are vague and that it's more sloganeering, rather than having any actual substance.

/we may have gotten off on the wrong foot, but I was hoping you might be able to elaborate on that or confirm that considering your background.


Any specific links?

Most of the stuff I've heard and read has been inclusive, even to those that were fighting against them. Admittedly, that tone has changed since yesterday, but the anger is directed at the titushky and Berkut specifically
 
2014-02-19 10:26:19 PM  
If I shiat on the CP any more in this thread Ran is going to think I'm joining the A Team.
 
2014-02-19 10:29:22 PM  

danzak: Most of the stuff I've heard and read has been inclusive, even to those that were fighting against them. Admittedly, that tone has changed since yesterday, but the anger is directed at the titushky and Berkut specifically


That's the farking truth.  This situation went from bad to worse to bad to truce.  The opinions are changing every farking second from every corner.
 
2014-02-19 10:31:46 PM  
That's better : )
 
2014-02-19 10:32:20 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.

Where did he say that? Are you mental


Don't really know what's going on, do you.  It was of those connect the dots things.  You seem to missing a few dots.
 
2014-02-19 10:32:38 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: Misogynist? So...you don't seem to have a strong command of the English language either, let alone the Ukrainian language...

I thick I bolded that part and yea were done here.

You're translations have been appreciated but you're commentary is silly and lacking in fact


"Cluck your tongue"??  You think men can't cluck their tongues?  This, coupled with the pathetic state of the rest of your post, has most definitely verified for everyone reading that your English isn't so hot.

Maybe it's time for you to sleep it off.
 
2014-02-19 10:32:53 PM  
There are so many people on TFD that are going to farking hate you for this lol
 
2014-02-19 10:35:42 PM  
FarkedOver
As an addendum, I would suggest that if the Russian Soviets had left the Ukrainian black army lead by Makhno alone, I think socialism could have a more positive and profound impact in Ukraine.

2.bp.blogspot.com

/Don't let Ran Domino see this ;)

In truth, I'm used to M-Ls with inconsistent positions toward Anarchists. Every single one seems to have a different opinion toward the Ukrainian Black Army, Kronstadt, the raids of the Moscow Federation, each of the individual peasant rebellions... And then we can talk about Spain...


annndd Thanks tinfoil-hat maggie!
 
2014-02-19 10:36:13 PM  

RanDomino: FarkedOver
Rann, I agree with you 9 times out of 10. I can only assume you've been reading the anarchist perspective coming out of Ukraine. I know I have, and I know the intimidation from the right amongst the protesters is cause for concern. This is something anarchists and communists would unite on.

This is basically what we're going on.
In practice, it means eating popcorn while watching videos of cops being beaten and immolated.

As for Svoboda, it's not as simple as saying they're fascists. A lot of the right-wing nationalism, especially centered on Lviv, seems to have ancestry with the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, the military wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which fought against both the Communists and the Nazis. Their red-and-black flag was initially pretty confusing for a lot of anarchists, but I think for the most part everyone's been straightened out.

Anyway, it's FAR more complicated than "THEY'RE NAZIIIIISSSS!!!!!" and engaging the ENTIRE population of protesters as equivalent to a small fraction is hardly productive. The vast majority of people in any group are non-ideological. Even if they fight on the side of fascists, they might not realize it unless said fascists are waving around straight-arm salutes and goose-steppingm, and probably not even then. If the fascists are just saying "Our country is the best!" (which in Ukrainian is apparently "Slava Ukraini") and waving the flag and so on, they're hardly distinguishable from any politician. So, look, if you want to interrupt the fascists' gaining of power, you've got to figure out how to split the crowd away from them... and that's not going to be done by lumping them all together and condemning them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_S S_ %281st_Ukrainian%29

Again, not so cut-and-dry:
Germans made two political concessions: It was stipulated that the division shall not be used to fight Western Allies, and would be used exclusively to "figh ...


Much obliged for elegantly expounding on some of my points.  As for "Slava Ukrayini" and the retort "Heroyim Slava" they literally mean "Glory to Ukraine" and "Heroes Glory".  They most certainly do not "belong" to one group or another, are as old as the hills, and are as innocuous as "God Bless America" or anything else to that effect.
 
2014-02-19 10:37:12 PM  

RanDomino: In truth, I'm used to M-Ls with inconsistent positions toward Anarchists. Every single one seems to have a different opinion toward the Ukrainian Black Army, Kronstadt, the raids of the Moscow Federation, each of the individual peasant rebellions... And then we can talk about Spain...


You know I'm with you on Spain too.... lol

..... am I.... an anarchist?
 
2014-02-19 10:38:04 PM  
I'm watching the YT feed from Espreso TV.

Someone is singing out there in the darkness at this moment.

It sounds terribly sad.
 
2014-02-19 10:41:25 PM  

FarkedOver: zimbomba63: So the Soviets "...prosecuted ZERO people for warm(sic) crimes that occurred during WW2.." that were "...committed by the Nazi war machine." German Nazis, Ukrainian collaborators, nobody got punished, ZERO. That's what your saying? Man, I never knew that the Soviets were such "forgive and forget" guys.
You learn something knew every day.

Just because I'm a Marxist doesn't mean I will defend every single action of the USSR.  The history between the Russian Soviet Republic and the Ukrainian Soviet Republic isn't something we can really delve into and have meaningful dialogue about in this fark thread.  Especially with you, considering your hostile stance toward everything I've said.


When I think you are spouting bullshiat, expect to be called on it.  I expect to be challenged if I don't know what I'm talking about.  Fark is a two-way street.
 
2014-02-19 10:41:34 PM  
FarkedOver
You know I'm with you on Spain too.... lol

..... am I.... an anarchist?


It's okay! Marxism is a dialectical intermediary phase on the path to Anarchism.
 
2014-02-19 10:41:40 PM  

zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.

Where did he say that? Are you mental

Don't really know what's going on, do you.  It was of those connect the dots things.  You seem to missing a few dots.


Sure, actually I do and it very well could end up in a new world war. Do you know why the Russians signed a treaty of alliance with France, back in the day? Do you understand the history of the Tsar taking Ukraine the Crimea etc ....Sorry doesn't mater what the Uks believe Russia will win on this. Or we hop into ww3 or 4 or 5 depending on who you listen too.
 
2014-02-19 10:44:12 PM  
Hey, I think Angry Speech Dude has returned.
 
2014-02-19 10:45:29 PM  

RanDomino: FarkedOver
You know I'm with you on Spain too.... lol

..... am I.... an anarchist?

It's okay! Marxism is a dialectical intermediary phase on the path to Anarchism.


I really like Marx's critique of capitalism though.... can I keep that?
 
2014-02-19 10:48:08 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)

(cough) Hugonaughts (cough)


I guessing, just guessing now, you're talking about the Huguenots, right?  Please go on.
 
2014-02-19 10:49:48 PM  
FarkedOver
I really like Marx's critique of capitalism though.... can I keep that?

I straight-up stole it, myself!
 
2014-02-19 10:50:02 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: Misogynist? So...you don't seem to have a strong command of the English language either, let alone the Ukrainian language...

I thick I bolded that part and yea were done here.

You're translations have been appreciated but you're commentary is silly and lacking in fact

"Cluck your tongue"??  You think men can't cluck their tongues?  This, coupled with the pathetic state of the rest of your post, has most definitely verified for everyone reading that your English isn't so hot.

Maybe it's time for you to sleep it off.


So you're saying the little girl should go to bed? Heh ; ) I've only just begun to fight

Soviet March - Red Army Propaganda [WWII]

/You are fun to play with ; D
 
2014-02-19 10:50:57 PM  

Kittypie070: Hey, I think Angry Speech Dude has returned.


Is that on espresso TV?
 
2014-02-19 10:51:52 PM  
Goodnight all.  I need to get outta here.  Ran, always a pleasure.  Maggie.... thank you kindly! The rest of you Nazis can fark off and die (just kidding, have a good night, I know you're not Nazis).
 
2014-02-19 10:53:43 PM  
*stalks protectively around tinfoil-hat maggie*
 
2014-02-19 10:54:59 PM  

zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)

(cough) Hugonaughts (cough)

I guessing, just guessing now, you're talking about the Huguenots, right?  Please go on.


Still waiting on the book list and yea the crazy protestent Frenck that highjacked tat revolution. And don't go spelling Nazi when you have typos in your post.
 
2014-02-19 10:55:31 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Kittypie070: Hey, I think Angry Speech Dude has returned.

Is that on espresso TV?


Yup.

G'nights, Farked Over :)
 
2014-02-19 10:57:00 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: Misogynist? So...you don't seem to have a strong command of the English language either, let alone the Ukrainian language...

I thick I bolded that part and yea were done here.

You're translations have been appreciated but you're commentary is silly and lacking in fact

"Cluck your tongue"??  You think men can't cluck their tongues?  This, coupled with the pathetic state of the rest of your post, has most definitely verified for everyone reading that your English isn't so hot.

Maybe it's time for you to sleep it off.

So you're saying the little girl should go to bed? Heh ; ) I've only just begun to fight

Soviet March - Red Army Propaganda [WWII]

/You are fun to play with ; D


I'm implying nothing of the sort.  I'm saying that you sound like you're drunker 'n hell and that when you sober up your posts won't look like the brilliant Rope-a-Dope that you believe them to be.
 
2014-02-19 10:57:44 PM  

Kittypie070: *stalks protectively around tinfoil-hat maggie*


Happy happy joy joy ; )
 
2014-02-19 11:05:14 PM  

Kittypie070: tinfoil-hat maggie: Kittypie070: Hey, I think Angry Speech Dude has returned.

Is that on espresso TV?

Yup.

G'nights, Farked Over :)


The fella speechifying on maidanhotspot's espresso link was talking about the people that have just bussed into Kyiv from Lviv and any other areas.  Basically just thanking them for being on the road 4-5+ hours to join them there.  And now he's leading a singing of the National Anthem
 
2014-02-19 11:07:24 PM  
My Finns are worried :(

Carl Bildt @carlbildt (Twitter)

We must be clear: Ultimate responsibility for deaths and violence is with President Yanukovich. He has blood on his hands.

I know Anglos have the similar phrase "blood on hands". But it is still not quite the same. For all I know of, Bildt just uttered a declaration of a blood feud...

..as a kinda warning for Fellow Nordics to prepare for the worst kind of retaliation you can imagine. So, in effect {Bildt} told that a military intervention might be unavoidable.

...I wouldn't like too much Russian tanks rolling in like in Hungary '56, Checkoslovakia '68, or Georgia '07 (or so). The latter was done on purpose during the Olympics to keep it as much from headlines as possible. In fact SO WERE THE TWO FORMER!
 
2014-02-19 11:07:27 PM  

Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: tinfoil-hat maggie: Farkin' Uke: Misogynist? So...you don't seem to have a strong command of the English language either, let alone the Ukrainian language...

I thick I bolded that part and yea were done here.

You're translations have been appreciated but you're commentary is silly and lacking in fact

"Cluck your tongue"??  You think men can't cluck their tongues?  This, coupled with the pathetic state of the rest of your post, has most definitely verified for everyone reading that your English isn't so hot.

Maybe it's time for you to sleep it off.

So you're saying the little girl should go to bed? Heh ; ) I've only just begun to fight

Soviet March - Red Army Propaganda [WWII]

/You are fun to play with ; D

I'm implying nothing of the sort.  I'm saying that you sound like you're drunker 'n hell and that when you sober up your posts won't look like the brilliant Rope-a-Dope that you believe them to be.


No I become really incoherent when I'm drunker than hell but thanks for worrying about my alcohol consumption and again not giving any facts or links on the situation. What is you're malfunction.

Just to inflame you further ; )
Slav'sya Russ
 
2014-02-19 11:17:53 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: No I become really incoherent when I'm drunker than hell but thanks for worrying about my alcohol consumption


Heh. "This user is on your favorites list. Note: 8058015 female, possibly crazy, or drunk at the time. Color: orange 4."
 
2014-02-19 11:17:57 PM  

Kittypie070: My Finns are worried :(

Carl Bildt @carlbildt (Twitter)

We must be clear: Ultimate responsibility for deaths and violence is with President Yanukovich. He has blood on his hands.

I know Anglos have the similar phrase "blood on hands". But it is still not quite the same. For all I know of, Bildt just uttered a declaration of a blood feud...

..as a kinda warning for Fellow Nordics to prepare for the worst kind of retaliation you can imagine. So, in effect {Bildt} told that a military intervention might be unavoidable.

...I wouldn't like too much Russian tanks rolling in like in Hungary '56, Checkoslovakia '68, or Georgia '07 (or so). The latter was done on purpose during the Olympics to keep it as much from headlines as possible. In fact SO WERE THE TWO FORMER!


I'm worried this can and/or could spark a world war. EU and Nato taking in Poland may be a check they cash and Ukraine with Sevastopol home of the Black sea fleet on the line.

It's a dangerous game, and there is no way to win it.
 
2014-02-19 11:20:22 PM  

flexflint: tinfoil-hat maggie: No I become really incoherent when I'm drunker than hell but thanks for worrying about my alcohol consumption

Heh. "This user is on your favorites list. Note: 8058015 female, possibly crazy, or drunk at the time. Color: orange 4."


Well wrong about a few things see how that is I'm not even gonna tell you what things.
 
2014-02-19 11:28:09 PM  
Russ national anthem
/Well with voice over
 
2014-02-19 11:42:41 PM  

FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)

  The masses dictated change.  If the Lenin was an opportunist by offering an end to the WWI I guess he was a mean old opportunist.

I would say the western powers were the opportunists because after the revolution many allied nations that invaded (the U.S. included).  I will also mention that the Ukrainian Soviet Republic fought against this invasion.  The Russian revolution was the VERY definition of a popular movement.  Not opportunistic.  Unless of course you think feudalism is a-ok.


Where to start?  Where to start?
1) "Actually Lenin didn't think it was the right time for Revolution."  In Russia, but not in Germany.  Russia was merely a stepping stone to the establishing Soviets in Germany.  Your studies of Marx, so tell you why Lenin thought this way.  This is why the disaster before Warsaw in 1920, was a great disappointment for Lenin.  Berlin was only a few hundred miles from Warsaw.
2) "The masses dictated change"Ah, no, not really. Trotsky launched the coup d'etat using a small cadre of armed workers for the worker's soviets.  They should have been crushed, but, things were bungled.
3) "If the Lenin was an opportunist by offering an end to the WWI I guess he was a mean old opportunist."  See #1, Lenin ceded large parts of the Ukraine to the Germans, even though many in the Bolshevik leadership was against it.  He saw the old orders collapsing and the workers soviets would fill in the vacuum, thus, they would get whatever they lost back without any problems.  Secondly, the Russian Army had collapsed and the Germans were grabbing more and more territory.  Lenin used wanted it to stop and consolidate power.
4) "I would say the western powers were the opportunists because after the revolution many allied nations that invaded (the U.S. included)."Really one of the more overblown events in world history.  The Allies did not want the large amounts of supplies that the had provided to Russia, to be allowed to be given to the Germans.  The number of troops were pathetically small, never anywhere size to have any effect on what was happening in Russia.
5) "The Russian revolution was the VERY definition of a popular movement."And the need for the Red Terror?  In the major cities maybe, out in the countryside not so much, and remember, Russia was an agrarian society with most of its people on the land and the Reds were not very popular out in the sticks.
 
2014-02-19 11:58:04 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.

Where did he say that? Are you mental

Don't really know what's going on, do you.  It was of those connect the dots things.  You seem to missing a few dots.

Sure, actually I do and it very well could end up in a new world war. Do you know why the Russians signed a treaty of alliance with France, back in the day? Do you understand the history of the Tsar taking Ukraine the Crimea etc ....Sorry doesn't mater what the Uks believe Russia will win on this. Or we hop into ww3 or 4 or 5 depending on who you listen too.


Yeah, I don't think so.  This "It might cause WW3!" is trotted all the time.  Absolutely nothing would happen anywhere in the world, because somebody's toes are always being stepped on. Does that mean that they're going to launch their ICBM's over it? Please give me a break.  I've lived through the 60's and 70's, things were way more tense and nothing happened.
 
2014-02-20 12:02:14 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)

(cough) Hugonaughts (cough)

I guessing, just guessing now, you're talking about the Huguenots, right?  Please go on.

Still waiting on the book list and yea the crazy protestent Frenck that highjacked tat revolution. And don't go spelling Nazi when you have typos in your post.


A lot of my stuff is boxed up.  I will have to get back to you tomorrow with that.
 
2014-02-20 12:15:36 AM  

zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.

That's odd, from what I've seen you're reading their script.  Well, except today, they didn't even mention the Ukrainian situation.

If you say so, you seem to be the expert on nazism.

Wait, so you're saying that RT is a mouthpiece for nazis and/or fascists, but, RT says that the Ukrainian protestors are nazis and/or fascists, but, RT is Russia's mouthpiece supporting Yanokovych, so does that make him a nazi and/or fascist, too?  So, nazis and/or fascists are rebelling against nazis and/or fascists, while a nazi and/or fascist new outlet chooses sides. Gosh, your world is so confusing.

Where did he say that? Are you mental

Don't really know what's going on, do you.  It was of those connect the dots things.  You seem to missing a few dots.

Sure, actually I do and it very well could end up in a new world war. Do you know why the Russians signed a treaty of alliance with France, back in the day? Do you understand the history of the Tsar taking Ukraine the Crimea etc ....Sorry doesn't mater what the Uks believe Russia will win on this. Or we hop into ww3 or 4 or 5 depending on who you listen too.

Yeah, I don't think so.  This "It might cause WW3!" is trotted all the time.  Absolutely nothing would happen anywhere in the world, because somebody's toes are always being stepped on. Does that mean that they're going to launch their ICBM's over it? Please give me a break.  I've lived through the 60's and 70's, things were way more tense and nothing happened.


Dude one to five EMPs over the US and selective missile strikes Russia will cripple the US.Granted they will get nuked as well but well some people may see that as an okay thing.
. Anyway his storyline gets use to WW3 starting from Yugoslavia I believe. And is done buy a commander of Nato in the late 70's
 
2014-02-20 12:20:39 AM  

zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: tinfoil-hat maggie: zimbomba63: FarkedOver: NEDM: And? Are you saying that Lyiv is now the "National Socialist Republic of Lyiv"?

Take it with a grain of salt is all I'm saying as this area has been known to be sympathetic to the far right.

Revolutions are a tricky thing.  Revolutions are ripe for opportunists and are frequently ruined by those opportunists.  The far right is very opportunistic and it always has been.  If the far right can be staved off, great.... it's a wait and see approach more than anything.

(cough)Bolsheviks(cough)

(cough) Hugonaughts (cough)

I guessing, just guessing now, you're talking about the Huguenots, right?  Please go on.

Still waiting on the book list and yea the crazy protestent Frenck that highjacked tat revolution. And don't go spelling Nazi when you have typos in your post.

A lot of my stuff is boxed up.  I will have to get back to you tomorrow with that.


Yea man google and reading comprehensin are hard yo farkin puke BSer,,,v=ZzVPtbIvyMg&list=RDscnRS3cOKTg">Linhttps://www.youtube.com/wa tch?v=ZzVPtbIvyMg&list=RDscnRS3cOKTgk
 
2014-02-20 12:22:46 AM  
 
2014-02-20 12:35:21 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: tinfoil-hat maggie: FarkedOver: That in no way, shape or form describes marxism.... If you think it does, please try reading any of Marx's works again.

It's sorta funny Marx is sorta like Jesus everyone feel strongly one way or another about what they said but so few people ever bothered to read or follow what was actually said.

/Now I'm gonna get flamed.

You're entering a world of hurt.... I'm sorry :(

Meh nothin' better to do : )

[www.interpretermag.com image 620x382]
"Peaceful protesters" in Lviv with antitank guns.


Cool the DQ is still open
 
2014-02-20 12:50:34 AM  

raerae1980: Sooo, not going to be visiting the Ukraine anytime soon. Cross that off my list. At least Italy and Spain haven't rioted yet.


But it *is* a greecy slope. Since this is the Winter of our discontent, the world could be in for A-rabid Spring.
 
2014-02-20 12:51:56 AM  
Ukraine you say?

image.guim.co.uk
 
2014-02-20 12:52:45 AM  

Farkin' Uke: Kittypie070: tinfoil-hat maggie: Kittypie070: Hey, I think Angry Speech Dude has returned.

Is that on espresso TV?

Yup.Llrig

G'nights, Farked Over :)

The fella speechifying on maidanhotspot's espresso link was talking about the people that have just bussed into Kyiv from Lviv and any other areas.  Basically just thanking them for being on the road 4-5+ hours to join them there.  And now he's leading a singing of the National Anthem


Alright so why you so into the agitprop and claiming others are doing it?

Napalm death enjoy lots of other things on the feed.
 
2014-02-20 12:54:35 AM  

Bucky Katt: Ukraine you say?

[image.guim.co.uk image 460x276]


Well I would support Princess Lehia but I think shes dead or arrested.
 
2014-02-20 01:06:03 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Bucky Katt: Ukraine you say?

[image.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

Well I would support Princess Lehia but I think shes dead or arrested.


She's in prison with serious health issues.
 
2014-02-20 01:10:54 AM  

RanDomino: FarkedOver
As an addendum, I would suggest that if the Russian Soviets had left the Ukrainian black army lead by Makhno alone, I think socialism could have a more positive and profound impact in Ukraine.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 320x240]

/Don't let Ran Domino see this ;)

In truth, I'm used to M-Ls with inconsistent positions toward Anarchists. Every single one seems to have a different opinion toward the Ukrainian Black Army, Kronstadt, the raids of the Moscow Federation, each of the individual peasant rebellions... And then we can talk about Spain...


annndd Thanks tinfoil-hat maggie!


De nada,, And yea putting people in boxes that don't always fit. It cant work.
 
2014-02-20 01:17:00 AM  
traylor:

85 mm divisional gun D-44

[img.fark.net image 800x408]

It took me a while to find it. These guns were produced between 1945-1953. I doubt that they are used anywhere today, these type of guns were replaced by self-propelled guns a long ago. Maybe similar towed guns are used in Best Korea?


Yeah, but thanks to NK's union rules, that damned donkey gets a 15 min coffee break after each tow.
 
2014-02-20 01:55:56 AM  
The protesters have the look of people who'd rather talk about fighting than actually do it. If they really wanted to get rid of... whomever it is they're specifically pissed at, they'd be mixing up some ANFO and sniping the cops. Instead they seem to be playing with fireworks and waiting for the government to decide whether to arrest them or kill them. Giving the other side time to think and then reacting to what they do rarely results in a victory.

Perhaps I'm not considering a "diplomatic solution", but historically those have been unpredictable and I'm a shiat-or-get-off-the-pot kind of guy. I kinda think it's gonna end up being the Ukrainian government who decides what happens to the Ukrainian government. I can't tell if that makes me sad or not.
 
2014-02-20 03:19:01 AM  
Let Freedom Ring. Let it Ring from Maidan. To Lviv. To Odessa. To Kharkhiv. Slava. Slava Ukrainia!
 
2014-02-20 06:20:58 AM  

zerkalo: Let Freedom Ring. Let it Ring from Maidan. To Lviv. To Odessa. To Kharkhiv. Slava. Slava Ukrainia!


I have the same wish my friend, let's hope and wait.
 
2014-02-20 06:41:52 AM  

FarkedOver: zimbomba63: Dude, when did you get the job with RT?

I'm sorry I don't support nazis and fascists.


We know, you have standards

You also have internet in early XX century. At first I was surprised, but the I remembered it's alternative history early XX century.
 
2014-02-20 07:57:19 AM  
 
2014-02-20 03:17:50 PM  

zimbomba63: FarkedOver: zimbomba63: So what you're telling us, is that when the Soviets retook the Ukraine in 1944, they didn't bother any of the people who collaborated with the Nazis? Now be very clear, this is what you are saying? Oh yeah, citation please!

I have absolutely zero problem with anyone who killed or imprisoned nazis or their collaborators in the aftermath of WW2.

But you said,

"I know it's a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth. They have prosecuted ZERO people for warm crimes that occurred during WW2 and this is a problem considering the atrocities committed by the Nazi war machine."

So the Soviets "...prosecuted ZERO people for warm(sic) crimes that occurred during WW2.." that were "...committed by the Nazi war machine."  German Nazis, Ukrainian collaborators, nobody got punished, ZERO.  That's what your saying?  Man, I never knew that the Soviets were such "forgive and forget" guys.
You learn something knew every day.


Well, to be fair, "enemies of the state" weren't PEOPLE. The USSR kept no more records than if you were tracking the stink bugs you crush in your house.
 
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