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(CNN)   After yesterday's bloodshed, Ukrainian president Yanukovych decides to dial back the rhetoric and become a voice of reason. Just kidding, he orders protesters to "disassociate themselves" from each other or be considered enemies of the state   (cnn.com) divider line 337
    More: Followup, President Viktor Yanukovych, Ukrainian President, Ukrainian, enemy of the state, moral support, Government of Ukraine, Catherine Ashton, Independence Square  
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2129 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Feb 2014 at 1:14 PM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-19 01:42:44 PM  
Suddenly, the protesters are the bad guys?

Hey mods, this thread started off stupid. Can't we have an other thread instead?
 
2014-02-19 01:43:11 PM  

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


Spoiler alert:  NeoNazis drink water and breathe air too.

So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?
 
2014-02-19 01:43:41 PM  

enderthexenocide: i hate to defend their government, but they have shown remarkable restraint so far.  the protesters basically took over that whole neighborhood, put up roadblocks, etc, and the ukraine president basically let them sit there for a few weeks in the hopes they would get bored and vacate the area.  what was he supposed to do?  just resign office because a bunch of people were protesting?  he had the military and the police keep an eye on them for weeks and finally gave them a deadline to get the hell out of there.  i mean its terrible that it turned to violence, but neither side was going to budge, and the government will always win a battle like that.  deep down i think the protesters were hoping the police would finally step in because no matter what happened, the government would look like the bad guys in that situation.  but the government had no choice, what could they do, just let the protesters live there forever?

imagine if some protesters just took over wall street in new york or something, blocked the streets, burned tires, and threw rocks at police.  i don't think our president or the local authorities would be anywhere near as patient with them as ukraine's government was.  obama would have called in the national guard and they would have locked the place down in one day.  there's no way our own government would allow a rebellious protest last as long as the one in ukraine has


They also took over Lviv and declared independence. This is a civil war now not a protest.
 
2014-02-19 01:44:47 PM  

NEDM: So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?


No.  This has been the most reactionary and violent group of protestors.  These are the people promoting the violence.
 
2014-02-19 01:45:05 PM  

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


Yep, they are crazy nazi types.
 
2014-02-19 01:45:39 PM  

traylor: Suddenly, the protesters are the bad guys?

Hey mods, this thread started off stupid. Can't we have an other thread instead?


Protestors who happen to be nazi are in fact bad guys.
 
2014-02-19 01:46:03 PM  

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.
 
2014-02-19 01:46:20 PM  

FarkedOver: NEDM: So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?

No.  This has been the most reactionary and violent group of protestors.  These are the people promoting the violence.


Yeeeaaaaah....I think that the Berkut's attempt to storm the barricades last night had a big hand in starting this.
 
2014-02-19 01:47:12 PM  
I don't get these protestors.  Don't they want to live under the glory of Putin's puppet regime? Why would they want to join a bunch of eurohomo countries that are scared of Saddam Hussein when they could have their lives dictated by a STRONG leader that loves the church, doesn't put up with homosexuals, and engages in the pursuits of REAL men.

watchmen-news.com

While Obama parents and plays golf, Putin engages in manly photoshoots.  That's the leader America needs.  My gun club agrees.
 
2014-02-19 01:47:47 PM  

NEDM: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

Spoiler alert:  NeoNazis drink water and breathe air too.

So you're going to discount the entire movement and the crackdown by the government because of some of the people who decided that this was a good time for their agitation to come to the surface?


1. Never get involved in internet wars with believers
 
rpl
2014-02-19 01:48:00 PM  
It's spring already?

Stupid global warming.
 
2014-02-19 01:48:56 PM  

firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.


Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.  The fact that they want their version of democracy doesn't mean we should support that.  I'd be willing to bet that the protestors don't reflect a national consensus overall either.  You know that, I know that and the world knows that.

This is an attempted right-wing revolution.  I don't support it in any way shape or form.
 
2014-02-19 01:49:36 PM  
Here is an example of your "restraint".  Warning, NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipJOV01Pr4">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=DipJOV01Pr4

This is from Khmelnytskyi filmed earlier today
 
2014-02-19 01:53:12 PM  

FarkedOver: firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.

Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.  The fact that they want their version of democracy doesn't mean we should support that.  I'd be willing to bet that the protestors don't reflect a national consensus overall either.  You know that, I know that and the world knows that.

This is an attempted right-wing revolution.  I don't support it in any way shape or form.


So, better they should live under the iron fist of Putin and his puppets...

That's kind of the crux of your position of never supporting anything other than the ideal, you'll never get anything relatively better because you're so married to idealism that you can't objectively see that even as right-wing, it would be better for the Ukraine to at least govern itself, rather than continue under the Putin regime. I'm sure it's just coincidence that the protests started after the EU veto by the president, and also coincidence that they stepped up after the recent loan guarantee by Putin. If all was as you say, and they were just neo-nazis, they would be as supportive of the Putin regime as the other neo-nazi groups that Putin tacitly supports throughout Russia.
 
2014-02-19 01:53:22 PM  

echomike23: JorgiX: They should just have a boxing match for the presidency.

[www.officialpsds.com image 400x338]
the new commander in chief


This guy might have something to say about that...
news.bbcimg.co.uk
 
2014-02-19 01:53:41 PM  
I'm willing to bet most of the Ukrainian population doesn't want to be included into the EU.  I think what is more likely is the the Ukrainian people want to be governed better.  Does that mean you should hitch your wagon to these protestors? FARK NO.
 
2014-02-19 01:54:06 PM  

traylor: Suddenly, the protesters are the bad guys?

Hey mods, this thread started off stupid. Can't we have an other thread instead?


Bioshock Infinite taught me that both sides are bad.
 
2014-02-19 01:55:10 PM  

firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.


it's the neo-nazis that have guns in with the protesters. This is a revolution/civil war and the crazies win a lot of times when that happens.
 
2014-02-19 01:55:21 PM  

firefly212: So, better they should live under the iron fist of Putin and his puppets...


Not at all.  I'm not trying to make this into a cold war part 2.  Russia doesn't have the influence it once did.  I think that the Ukrainian people want a better functioning government.  Would they get that if these protestors won the day? Nope.  Not by a long shot.
 
2014-02-19 01:58:39 PM  
I'm rooting for the janitorial staff that will have to clean all this up once these unemployed people and government goons leave the square.  They are the real heroes.
 
2014-02-19 01:58:49 PM  

FarkedOver: I'm willing to bet most of the Ukrainian population doesn't want to be included into the EU


I think you would be wrong.  Parts of the east don't, but their economy relies heavily on trade with Russia.  Still, even they have also been getting screwed last couple of years.  It remains very poor with high unemployment and little opportunity.  Western Ukraine and most of central Ukraine would support closer ties to the EU.
 
2014-02-19 01:59:30 PM  

the_coach5040: I thought Barry O released a sternly word press release...how is this still happening?


He's just preparing to become an interfering dictating busybody, you know, like in those dreams you have.
 
2014-02-19 01:59:55 PM  

danzak: I think you would be wrong. Parts of the east don't, but their economy relies heavily on trade with Russia. Still, even they have also been getting screwed last couple of years. It remains very poor with high unemployment and little opportunity. Western Ukraine and most of central Ukraine would support closer ties to the EU.


Closer ties sure, I don't think anyone would care about new trade deals and cooperation.  Full inclusion? Won't ever happen.
 
2014-02-19 02:01:31 PM  

FarkedOver: firefly212: So, better they should live under the iron fist of Putin and his puppets...

Not at all.  I'm not trying to make this into a cold war part 2.  Russia doesn't have the influence it once did.  I think that the Ukrainian people want a better functioning government.  Would they get that if these protestors won the day? Nope.  Not by a long shot.


Maybe it doesn't have the influence it once did but it still has a lot. The nuclear threats and withholding gas are clear indicators of that. Then you have the assassinations and poisonings of opponents.
 
2014-02-19 02:02:46 PM  
http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8911/

Here is some interesting data.  Most people surveyed don't support the protest and most people disapprove of the tactics used by the protestors.
 
2014-02-19 02:03:45 PM  

FarkedOver: Full inclusion? Won't ever happen


If they ever got their shiat together, it might.  In the near future?  Nope.
 
2014-02-19 02:04:56 PM  

FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.


Well isn't it true?
 
rpl
2014-02-19 02:05:35 PM  

danzak: Here is an example of your "restraint".  Warning, NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipJOV01Pr4">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=DipJOV01Pr4

This is from Khmelnytskyi filmed earlier today


Who fired the shots? For what purpose? Why'd they stop? With some difficulty (all crap aside this is Ukraine, not Libya) I can somewhat-kinda imagine the police firing into the crowd once they are moving in at full force but like this? Sneak up to a crowd, empty an AK at a random spot and disappear? That's a weird way to intimidate a crowd.
 
2014-02-19 02:06:39 PM  

FarkedOver: http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8911/

Here is some interesting data.  Most people surveyed don't support the protest and most people disapprove of the tactics used by the protestors.


Most interesting, thanks.
 
2014-02-19 02:07:25 PM  
I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.
 
2014-02-19 02:07:37 PM  

danzak: Twilight Farkle: BBC reporting armed forces head Gen. Volodymyr Zamana has been dismissed. Replacement is Adm. Yuriy Ilyin. EU pondering sanctions.

That is scary. Only reason to do this would be to put someone in who has no problem moving against the protesters. If this happens, I'd expect at least some factions to break apart and support the protesters leading to a serious escalation. I expect they would only mobilize from the East though, there were tanks on the way in December too, not sure what happened but they never made it to Kyiv.


Yeah. The situation is at or near the point where we have to treat the army as a wildcard: which units will accept orders from the new commander, and which units won't. If those units divide along geographic/political lines (as Ukraine itself is arguably divided), the potential for escalation just got higher. With large gas fields in both the western and eastern ends of the country, Russia won't accept any split without a fight. I speculate that most Ukrainians, whether they lean towards the EU or Russia, probably aren't too hot on the idea of partitioning the country either. We're not there yet. Maybe we get lucky and cooler heads prevail.
 
2014-02-19 02:13:10 PM  

FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.


Either way, the current government needs to go and be held accountable.  Free elections are the only option from here.
 
2014-02-19 02:13:48 PM  

FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.


As if the "support" of the yahoos on fark means fark all anyway.
 
2014-02-19 02:14:16 PM  

FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.


Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.
 
2014-02-19 02:18:00 PM  
Freedom isn't free and I'm damned proud of the Ukrainians for standing up to their non-representative government.  If they manage to overthrow the pro-Russian government that's tormenting them, then the American people and government should be ready to throw their total support behind those revolutionary forces in Ukraine.

Good luck you crazy Ukrainian bastards.
 
2014-02-19 02:18:32 PM  
On their way to the Ukrainian front

img.rt.com
 
2014-02-19 02:19:35 PM  

FarkedOver: firefly212: FarkedOver: Svoboda, one of the more right-wing neo-nazi groups involved in the demostrations urges people to keep fighting the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia running Ukraine".  These are the protestors you are supporting.  Congrats.

That's rather over-simplistic... picking one of the nearly 50 groups, and attributing any support to protesters with the extremist whackjobs. I mean, you may get some bites, but I don't think that anyone is really going to buy into your story... the 20k people protesting right now aren't all a bunch of neo-nazis, you know it, we know it, and the world knows it.

Most of the groups are moderate right-wing to far right-wing.  The fact that they want their version of democracy doesn't mean we should support that.  I'd be willing to bet that the protestors don't reflect a national consensus overall either.  You know that, I know that and the world knows that.

This is an attempted right-wing revolution.  I don't support it in any way shape or form.


So then you are commie, thanks for pointing that out.

Tell me oh wise one, if the KKK suddenly came out in support of abortion rights would it alter your view on the subject?
 
2014-02-19 02:19:42 PM  

Ned Stark: FarkedOver: I'm not asking anyone here to support the Ukrainian government or whatever.  I'm just asking people to scratch the surface on these protests and who is doing the protesting and what their motivation is.  This is in no way, shape or form a popular uprising.

As if the "support" of the yahoos on fark means fark all anyway.


Oh I know haha.  The point is a lot of people just have a knee-jerk reaction to automatically back any protest.

Food for thought:

On November 7th 1923 there was a protest where 3,00 people got out into the streets, where they battled with police and military forces all day, where the state had previously banned this groups meetings, all said and done 18 people were killed by police.  Without further info we could mourn the deaths of those people at the brutal hands of the state. We could support the large crowd of people, we could rally behind this protest.  But what if I told you that this protest took place in Munich Germany, that it stood against the government because it believed it was being ran by Jewish traitors, that it was anti-government because these protesters despised democratic government, that it was led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party.  With that context I'm sure that our outlook on this protest would change dramatically.  The point being that in politics context is EVERYTHING.
 
2014-02-19 02:23:03 PM  

jaybeezey: So then you are commie, thanks for pointing that out.

Tell me oh wise one, if the KKK suddenly came out in support of abortion rights would it alter your view on the subject?


What the fark are you talking about?
 
2014-02-19 02:24:07 PM  

danzak: Here is an example of your "restraint".  Warning, NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipJOV01Pr4">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=DipJOV01Pr4

This is from Khmelnytskyi filmed earlier today


What the fark?

Is that a government building? Why bust out glass from the door and fire into a (seemingly) peaceful crowd? Wouldn't you want to keep your doors...intact?

/lots of questions
//this will get messy
///not entirely obscure
 
2014-02-19 02:24:44 PM  

hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.


Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.
 
2014-02-19 02:26:58 PM  

vpb: He used to be much cooler.


Shakes fist
 
2014-02-19 02:29:34 PM  
You can't have 100K people in the street and just go on with business as usual. This idiot decided he was going to try and weasel his way out of the problem while having his pigs engage in absolutely awful secret police tactics. As that didn't cut it, now he's trying the 'ol "my people are terrorists and I can kill them how I want" gig. I'm so glad the protesters seized a bunch of a guns and ammo. I hope they rebuild their barriers with cop corpses.
 
2014-02-19 02:29:56 PM  
Oleg Vasilenko, a 35-year-old businessman who spoke to The New Times, said that it was the first time ever that he participated in a protest rally. "I don't give a shiat about Yatsenyuk and who will keep on plundering the country in the next five years, the opposition or the government. All I want is for Ukraine to get on the European path of development. And all of my company, that is all the 12 people, came here. And each of us would agree to a second term for Yanukovych, if he signed the agreement," said the businessman.
 
2014-02-19 02:35:22 PM  

FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.


Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.
 
2014-02-19 02:36:12 PM  
 
2014-02-19 02:38:08 PM  

hellfrozeover: FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.

Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.


Well, 75+ years of Russians settling into Ukrainian territory will do that to a country, wouldn't it?

psst: those people in the east aren't Ukrainians.  They're Russians.
 
2014-02-19 02:38:21 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Ukraine Liveblog: Day 2 of The Battle For Maidan Lots of info.


Your source will be discredited as it is Russian in nature.  Obviously western media is correct.
 
2014-02-19 02:38:53 PM  

hellfrozeover: FarkedOver: hellfrozeover: Having spent a somewhat lengthy period of time living in Ukraine (specifically the east) I can tell you have no finger on the pulse of the common person there. While there are certainly some factions of neo nazis and other extremist groups, not to mention the very common European anti-semitism, the majority of Ukrainians are sick of Russia manipulating their government in the back room.

I talked to several friends who are there, including some in Kyiv over the past day or so and many are also disgusted by the lack of western support.

What they are trying to do may not be perfect but the system there today is nothing short of criminal.

Earlier in this thread I posted survey data that showed most people DO NOT support the protests and most people DO NOT support the tactics used by the protesters.

If you care to back up your position with real data other than anecdotal evidence, I'd be glad to listen.  If you can disprove the data I have given I would also be glad to listen.

Your data also shows that 86% of people in western Ukraine support the protests while 81% of those in the east do not. Without spending time to go searching for other studies on my mobile, or checking out the credibility of this particular research company (color me shocked if the money isn't traced to a politician or Russian national), it at the very least confirms that the country is strongly split geographically, which is no surprise at all.


www.interpretermag.com
Linguistic division in Ukraine
 
2014-02-19 02:40:48 PM  
From twitter.com/TarasDenysenko

Protesters armed with rocks and Molotovs are storming Poltava regional administration.

Accord.to Udar, one of the protesters who participated in blocking Odessa-Kyiv highway was run over to his death

Ruslana from Maidan stage: "We are all here provocateurs, extremists, terrorists and fascists, didn't you know?"

Party of Regions deputies start to peel away. The first are those elected in majoritarian districts. Link

Turchynov from the stage of Maidan says that city mayor of Zhytomyr has "urgently" withdrawn from the Party of Regions.

Zhytomyr regional administration has been taken by protesters

Ukraine president Yanukovych just fired his army chief. The big question is why. If it was for failing to accept crackdown orders: bad. Bad.

Berkuters in Ternopil pledged their allegiance to the people of Ukraine YouTube Link

Protesters in Lutsk make a corridor for police to leave regional HQ YouTube Link

reports that SBU (national security agency) building in Khmelnitskyi caught fire from Molotovs

Ministry of Defense announced that due to an "anti-terrorist" operation in #Ukraine, military might be involved

"[unknowns] disguised as self-defence were spotted on Kostelna st.;they shoot at protesters"
 
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