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(New York Daily News)   Ship not allowed to deliver 40,000 tons of much needed road salt to New Jersey because A) The ship can't dock because of the weather, B) Nobody will unload it because of a dock worker strike, or C) The ship isn't carrying an American flag   (nydailynews.com) divider line 135
    More: Stupid, New Jersey, road salt, car drivers, U.S. flag, Egg Harbor Township  
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9800 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Feb 2014 at 5:31 AM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-02-18 07:34:41 AM

gfid: I wonder if it's that simple. Can you temporarily re-flag a ship to fly under another country's flag without stepping on other maritime laws? I don't think it's the actual physical flag they're talking about.

Imagine if ship's could just literally make it a "flag of convenience." If the Captain wants special treatment when docking in the UK, he simply hoists their flag up. When the ship returns to US waters, raise the US flag. Somehow, I don't think that would conform to maritime law, but I'm certainly not an expert.



images.amcnetworks.com
/Approves of your idea.
//And changing the name of the ship
 
2014-02-18 07:34:46 AM
Because you can't spell "sodium chloride" without 83% of "Murica", that's why!
 
2014-02-18 07:38:15 AM

PunGent: way south: I'm fairly certain the author is confused about the flag thing, but just in a case they aren't...Most times when things get held up over little known outdated laws, its not really about the law. It's about someone forgetting to grease the appropriate palm or someone trying to pull a political favor.

I'm sure there's corruption in the shipping/hauling industries, but this isn't exactly a "little known outdated law"; this is more like manslaughter or something; EVERYONE in maritime shipping knows this one, and not just Americans.

NJ state officials, however?  Yeah, they could be that stupid.


Well, not "everyone" knew.
Otherwise they wouldn't have shipped the stuff on an improperly flagged vessel.

/But it should've taken thirty seconds to explain this and get a waiver.
/Not like there's a national emergency or anything about a snowpocalipse that's been on the news.
 
2014-02-18 07:39:40 AM

Unobtanium


The issue at hand, at least in part, is one of cabotage


www.nerdyandhip.com
 
2014-02-18 07:45:45 AM
The efficiency of big government. Just wait until these guys get a hold of health care.
 
2014-02-18 07:50:53 AM
If you want 40,000 tons of salt put Chris Christie on a treadmill and collect his sweat and then let it evaporate.
 
2014-02-18 07:54:40 AM

UNC_Samurai: seamen


i.imgur.com
 
2014-02-18 07:56:55 AM
Here just last week and two weeks before that the south was being ridiculed for their inability to cope with winter weather which had a lot to do with lack of equipment and supplies. I have kind of a hard time getting my violin all tuned up for New Jersey.

Also, to you partisan douchebags, a 100 year old law has nothing to do with current politics. Either there are good reasons for keeping the law or it should be repealed, but if it's law then it's law. Whoever was coordinating this shipment farked up by trying to have it delivered by a vessel that couldn't legally do it.
 
2014-02-18 07:57:49 AM

SlothB77: The efficiency of big government. Just wait until these guys get a hold of health care.


Please, enlighten us with your analysis of international maritime law.
 
2014-02-18 08:03:13 AM
If it's needed that much, offload and ship by railroad.

Four hundred hopper cars at 100 tons each. Break it into two or three separate trains, send them to different parts of the state (which they were probably going to do at the Jersey docks anyway).
 
2014-02-18 08:08:12 AM

clearlyatroll: but if it's law then it's law


It's new jersey.
I'm sure that everything at the docks is 100% compliant and up to code.

*Rolls eyes)
 
2014-02-18 08:11:15 AM
But you're right. The law is the law.
If they didn't obey the laws in New Jersey, they would be left with. . .
*puts on sunglasses*
Mob Rule.
 
2014-02-18 08:11:55 AM
fusillade762 [TotalFark]


CHRISTIE!

It's a federal law, but continue your derp.
 
2014-02-18 08:16:37 AM
tea baggers and deniers.  It's always the tea baggers and deniers.
 
2014-02-18 08:16:46 AM

UNC_Samurai: There was a time when the American merchant marine was second to none.  Even at the height of Pax Britannica at the end of the 19th century, the world's shipping was just as robust under the Stars and Stripes as the Union Jack.  But things changed in the late 20th century.  American merchant shipping declined significantly in the 1970s and 1980s, at the same time as the rest of American manufacturing started to disappear.


The problem with this narrative is that US manufacturing never declined.  That's a myth, caused by two factors.  First, we became far more efficient post WW2, so less jobs were needed to produce the same value of goods.  Second, we had massive growth in other sectors, so if you look at manufacturing as a % of GDP it appears to shrink, but that's only because it wasn't growing as fast.  If you look at manufacturing in real dollars you can see that the sector has grown at a steady rate over the last century.

static2.businessinsider.com

Measured in dollars, we produce more than any other country in the world, except for China which recently passed us.  However, to produce the same amount of goods that we do, China uses over 100 million laborers, meaning our factories are over 8x as efficient.  As labor costs equalize, they will be faced with a) modernizing their plants and b) finding jobs for 90 million people, so it isn't all roses over there.

Point being, US has been and remains a powerful force in manufacturing.
 
2014-02-18 08:20:35 AM
I wouldn't, in this case, blame the NJ officials so much.  They're not arranging for a particular ship to bring their salt; they are using a supplier.

According to TFA, they placed the order in ample time to receive it.

Stuff happens, it isn't always somebody's fault; although our brains seem to be wired to want to blame somebody.
 
2014-02-18 08:23:30 AM
No foreign salt!  No foreign salt!  No foreign salt!   No foreign salt!
 
2014-02-18 08:24:36 AM
I think there might be a valid reason for all this.
Salt can be hard to distinguish from other chemicals.

img.fark.net

img.fark.net

One is salt, the other is Ammonium Nitrate.

One kills many Americans each year, the other is used for explosives.
 
2014-02-18 08:24:58 AM
I knew we had a law like this but hadn't read it before, and I'm still not clear (sorry, not very clueful on the intricacies of law, much less shipping law)
Okay, only domestic ships can move between domestic ports.

So, could this have been averted had the ship gone to an international port? I'm assuming the same sort of delays would be in order given customs and whatnot.
 
2014-02-18 08:26:15 AM

DoctorOfLove: tea baggers and deniers.  It's always the tea baggers and deniers.


i5.photobucket.com

clearlyatroll: Also, to you partisan douchebags, a 100 year old law has nothing to do with current politics.

 
2014-02-18 08:28:50 AM

zomega: So, could this have been averted had the ship gone to an international port? I'm assuming the same sort of delays would be in order given customs and whatnot.


Actually, not really.  Bulk cargo like 40k tons of salt gets at most a precursory check by the officials to make sure they're not smugglings something in there and that's it.

The amount of goods is so massive that any customs issues are taken care of long before the ship leaves the port.
 
2014-02-18 08:29:30 AM
www.painstick.com

They need to learn how to make a SAMPO!!
 
2014-02-18 08:31:56 AM

bighairyguy: Because you can't spell "sodium chloride" without 83% of "Murica", that's why!


You can get even more letters in there with magnesium chloride, which is most likely the salt in question.
 
2014-02-18 08:33:08 AM

dennysgod: [www.painstick.com image 320x240]

They need to learn how to make a SAMPO!!


I don't know what you just won, but you totally did. :)
/love that episode.
 
2014-02-18 08:34:47 AM

drjekel_mrhyde: Pretty sure they'll be getting the snowfall within the next couple of days we got here in Chicago yesterday


Enh, it wasn't too bad this time. I don't think we got three inches here on this side of the city.
 
2014-02-18 08:45:25 AM

Road Rash: So you would think that a state on the east coast, with several major international ports, would know enough to make sure the salt would be put on a ship that could make the delivery.


I'm not sure there are any US-flag ships.
 
2014-02-18 08:48:18 AM

SomeAmerican: Point being, US has been and remains a powerful force in manufacturing.


You're correct that the U.S. remains a powerful force in manufacturing.  But what is hidden in those numbers is that a lot of the vertical integration of the supply chain has been lost.  For example, something that contains cast iron parts may be assembled in this country and the value of the assembly added to our GDP but a lot of the raw castings come from China, India, or even Australia because a lot of the foundries in this country are no longer operating.

One company I know makes lots of tools.  It is their corporate policy to use only U.S. steel.  So their steel vendor buys, for example, a raw steel coil from Brazil, slits it into smaller coils and it is magically transformed into U.S. steel.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but U.S. manufacturing, while still preeminent in terms of productivity and quality, is supplied by a lot of foreign manufacturing that in years past it would never have relied on.  In WW II, when we basically armed the world against the Axis, nearly all of the production was U.S. and Canada based. (we sometimes forget how helpful Canada was in the war effort).
 
2014-02-18 08:51:20 AM
"Time for some flag problems at the Port of New Jersey."

"Got it."
 
2014-02-18 08:55:31 AM

KeatingFive: ReverendJasen: Yeah, god forbid we let a ship with emergency supplies dock without all the paperwork in order.  It could end civilization as we know it.

Salt. We're talking SALT here. SALT. Not emergency food, or medical supplies, or any of that. Just salt.

/"Emergency supplies". Good grief.


Why am I unsurprised- on several levels- that you're living in Florida.

This ain't about seasoning shortages, dumbass. Road salt in winter saves lives.
 
2014-02-18 09:00:08 AM

derpy: Road Rash: So you would think that a state on the east coast, with several major international ports, would know enough to make sure the salt would be put on a ship that could make the delivery.

I'm not sure there are any US-flag ships.


There aren't many left, that's for sure. I was a merchant vessel inspector for the US for several years. We saw maybe 2 US flags. And we had to detain one of them!
 
2014-02-18 09:02:17 AM
PirateKing

Somehow this is Obama's fault.
Just because an agency that reports directly to him isn't issuing a simple waver? Why would anyone possibly blame this asshat for that?

If this happened during the Bush admin, you'd be in full whargarble mode telling us how rich oil men don't care about the poor and working class people who need to be out on the road.

N.J. officials were hoping a barge with 40 tons of salt would arrive from Maine. But the vessel wasn't flying the American flag and officials couldn't get clearance from Homeland Security
 
2014-02-18 09:03:13 AM

way south: PunGent: way south: I'm fairly certain the author is confused about the flag thing, but just in a case they aren't...Most times when things get held up over little known outdated laws, its not really about the law. It's about someone forgetting to grease the appropriate palm or someone trying to pull a political favor.

I'm sure there's corruption in the shipping/hauling industries, but this isn't exactly a "little known outdated law"; this is more like manslaughter or something; EVERYONE in maritime shipping knows this one, and not just Americans.

NJ state officials, however?  Yeah, they could be that stupid.

Well, not "everyone" knew.
Otherwise they wouldn't have shipped the stuff on an improperly flagged vessel.

/But it should've taken thirty seconds to explain this and get a waiver.
/Not like there's a national emergency or anything about a snowpocalipse that's been on the news.


I dunno about NJ, but the snowfall here in Mass. isn't much above historic annual levels, if at all.

Piss-poor state planning isn't really an 'emergency' in my book, despite hysterical media coverage of what I call "weather."

/shakes belt-onion menacingly
 
2014-02-18 09:04:01 AM

Headso: If you want 40,000 tons of salt put Chris Christie on a treadmill and collect his sweat and then let it evaporate.


(shudder)

Well, just lost MY appetite...
 
2014-02-18 09:15:21 AM

KeatingFive: Salt. We're talking SALT here. SALT. Not emergency food, or medical supplies, or any of that. Just salt.

/"Emergency supplies". Good grief.


I'll cut you a break, Florida.  Maybe you've never been in a blizzard.
They just had a big one, roads are closed all over the state.  It's impractical, if not impossible, to plow all the roads 24/7, even if they had enough trucks.  The salt is the best way to keep the snow melting off the streets as it falls.  With no salt down, the streets get covered, becoming dangerous at best, impassable at worst.  So not only do you have the economic harm of people not being able to get to work, people being hurt in accidents, but your precious food and medical supplies can't be delivered either.
So yes, emergency supplies.
 
2014-02-18 09:15:42 AM
if there was only another way to get that salt from Maine to New Jersey....
 
2014-02-18 09:25:24 AM

Bmorrison: if there was only another way to get that salt from Maine to New Jersey....


40,000 tons in one trip?
 
2014-02-18 09:26:28 AM

cirby: If it's needed that much, offload and ship by railroad.

Four hundred hopper cars at 100 tons each. Break it into two or three separate trains, send them to different parts of the state (which they were probably going to do at the Jersey docks anyway).

boourns.dynu.net


Um... seems like they'd have to dock the ship somewhere before they could do that.

Or does your plan include building a railroad out to the ship, since it can't dock at a US dock? Or sailing the ship to a foreign dock and shipping by rail from there? All before the next storm comes in on Tuesday?
 
2014-02-18 09:29:51 AM
This is not the first time it has snowed in NJ. This is not the first time the roads have iced over. This is simply poor planning on NJ's side, nothing more, nothing less. One day Common Sense will return to the US, however some of us will not be here to see it.
 
2014-02-18 09:34:32 AM

vudukungfu: clearlyatroll: but if it's law then it's law

It's new jersey.
I'm sure that everything at the docks is 100% compliant and up to code.

*Rolls eyes)


I was born in Jersey City, my uncles were dock workers.  I was 14 before I realized that ordinary families didn't eat steak and lobster everyday.
 
2014-02-18 09:35:09 AM

Coming on a Bicycle: Eps05: Fubini: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920

Wikipedia says that this law requires goods shipped between US ports be shipped on a US-flag vessel. I'm guessing this is most likely the problem, considering that the US produces a lot of salt.

Same line as truck driving laws that forbid non-American citizen drivers from doing a pickup and drop within the borders. No stealing your jerbs.

Or the fact the no non-American airplanes are allowed to do US-internal flights. Because nothing says 'land of free enterprise' as a good number of protective measures mixed in.


I assume you mean "airlines", not "airplanes".
 
2014-02-18 09:35:27 AM
The first thought which came to my mind was the Eddie Izzard bit on flags:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k
 
2014-02-18 09:38:24 AM
Should have ordered it from Detroit. 1200 feet below the city is a 1,500 acre salt mine,no shortage here. Could have shipped it by freighter or train.
 
2014-02-18 09:43:28 AM

LZeitgeist: cirby: If it's needed that much, offload and ship by railroad.

Four hundred hopper cars at 100 tons each. Break it into two or three separate trains, send them to different parts of the state (which they were probably going to do at the Jersey docks anyway).

[boourns.dynu.net image 318x200]

Um... seems like they'd have to dock the ship somewhere before they could do that.

Or does your plan include building a railroad out to the ship, since it can't dock at a US dock? Or sailing the ship to a foreign dock and shipping by rail from there? All before the next storm comes in on Tuesday?


Didn't read the story, huh? The ship IS docked at a US port....up in Maine.  If the ship had sailed directly for Port Newark, there would be no problem.  The problem is that the ship stopped at a port up in Maine first.   Now that salt has to be unloaded in Maine and placed on US flagged ships or rail cars to get it down to Jersey.

Oh, and Drudge is a blaming this law on Obama.  Apparently Barry got into his time machine again and went back to 1920 so he could fark with Christie.
 
2014-02-18 09:44:37 AM
State Department of Transportation Spokesman Joe Dee said Monday the department has applied for a waiver from the federal government but it appears unlikely it will be granted, We were pursuing a waiver, but we've been advised we wouldn't get one," Dee said. " It seems unlikely we will get it."

"I've got a pen and I've got a phone -- and I can use that pen to sign executive orders and take executive actions and administrative actions that move the ball forward,"

charlestonteaparty.org
 
2014-02-18 09:46:26 AM

gfid: mamoru: Fubini: mamoru: So... if they really can't/won't break this law, can't someone simply run a flag out to the ship real quick and solve the problem? Or are conditions too bad for other boats and/or helicopters to do so?

The writer has almost certainly confused flying a physical flag with the notion of a ship's flag state- the country under which a ship is registered, licensed, and regulated.

This is more likely a regulatory dispute over the ship or it's cargo not being up to US standards.

Ah... that makes so much more sense. I'm not really clued-in to maritime laws.

But, you gotta admit it would be a much more Fark-worthy story if the whole situation could be resolved by someone simply dropping an American flag off on the boat. ;)

I wonder if it's that simple.  Can you temporarily re-flag a ship to fly under another country's flag without stepping on other maritime laws?  I don't think it's the actual physical flag they're talking about.

Imagine if ship's could just literally make it a "flag of convenience."   If the Captain wants special treatment when docking in the UK, he simply hoists their flag up.  When the ship returns to US waters, raise the US flag.  Somehow, I don't think that would conform to maritime law, but I'm certainly not an expert.

Just give them the goddammed waiver.


U.S.-flagged ships have TONS of awesome labor laws they have to abide by. Being a U.S. merchant marine sailor, working on U.S.-flagged ships, you make a ton of money. The same is true in Europe and Japan. Because of this, first-world shipping companies register their ships in bogus flag-of-convenience countries like Panama and Liberia, so they can pay Filipino and Bangladeshi crews one-tenth of what they would have to pay German or American crews, and where there is basically zero regulation. So, no, you can't just change your registration on the fly; you'd be in violation of about a million safety and labor regulations if you did.

/If it were up to me, U.S. shipping companies would have to physically relocate to Panama or Liberia if they wanted to use those flags, and pay vicious excise taxes. The only reason the U.S. merchant fleet isn't the size it was before WWII is corporate greed and government complacency.
 
2014-02-18 10:03:43 AM

Road Rash: So you would think that a state on the east coast, with several major international ports, would know enough to make sure the salt would be put on a ship that could make the delivery.


TFA does not say who is supplying the salt, but the state is probably purchasing it from a company and not another state. Maine probably doesn't restrict where its exports go to. TFA doesn't indicate who made the shipping arrangements -- although such an error implies government-quality work.
 
2014-02-18 10:07:21 AM

dahmers love zombie: Any other situation: "OMG SOCIALEST OBAMA LETTIN NOT US-FLAGGED SHIPPS DELIVER WEFARE BABY SUPPLIES TO DEMOCRATIC STATE PORTS!  MIGHT AS WELL OPEN DOORS FOR DIRTY MUSLIMTERRRSTS

Because it's directly affecting middle and uppper-middle class white people:   OMG OBAMA WON"T  ISSUE A SIMPLE WAIVER BREAKING A US FEDERAL LAW.  WHY WON'T HE BREAK A FEDERAL LAW SO WE CAN HAVE SALT?

Fark 'em.  Six years of constantBS about every little thing he does or doesn't do.  I say -- abide by the absolute letter of the law.  Screw 'em, R OR D.


Hey buddy, maybe you should try the decaf. You seem to be wound a little tight.
 
2014-02-18 10:16:24 AM

vudukungfu: clearlyatroll: but if it's law then it's law

It's new jersey.
I'm sure that everything at the docks is 100% compliant and up to code.

*Rolls eyes)


Considering it's the biggest port on the East Coast, I'd say it is.

/unions don't like bad conditions for their members


Zeb Hesselgresser: State Department of Transportation Spokesman Joe Dee said Monday the department has applied for a waiver from the federal government but it appears unlikely it will be granted, We were pursuing a waiver, but we've been advised we wouldn't get one," Dee said. " It seems unlikely we will get it."

"I've got a pen and I've got a phone -- and I can use that pen to sign executive orders and take executive actions and administrative actions that move the ball forward,"

[charlestonteaparty.org image 239x300]


Oh, so now executive orders are a good thing?
 
2014-02-18 10:29:26 AM

Fissile: LZeitgeist: cirby: If it's needed that much, offload and ship by railroad.

Four hundred hopper cars at 100 tons each. Break it into two or three separate trains, send them to different parts of the state (which they were probably going to do at the Jersey docks anyway).

[boourns.dynu.net image 318x200]

Um... seems like they'd have to dock the ship somewhere before they could do that.

Or does your plan include building a railroad out to the ship, since it can't dock at a US dock? Or sailing the ship to a foreign dock and shipping by rail from there? All before the next storm comes in on Tuesday?

Didn't read the story, huh? The ship IS docked at a US port....up in Maine.  If the ship had sailed directly for Port Newark, there would be no problem.  The problem is that the ship stopped at a port up in Maine first.   Now that salt has to be unloaded in Maine and placed on US flagged ships or rail cars to get it down to Jersey.

Oh, and Drudge is a blaming this law on Obama.  Apparently Barry got into his time machine again and went back to 1920 so he could fark with Christie.


Yes, I did read the story, but admittedly I missed that it was already in Maine. Consider crow being eaten.

This begs the question - why the Hell would they load it on a foreign ship in Maine to ship to another US state?
 
2014-02-18 10:32:42 AM

RobSeace: [media.tumblr.com image 240x184]


No flag, can't dock because that's the rules that I just made up.
 
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